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Big Mac · Oct 19, 2007, 02:48 PM

Right, but I'm talking about the Finder. The new dark folders don't match the Aqua scroll bars, for one.

Chuckit · Oct 19, 2007, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Aside from visual consistency between apps, I don't think anyone can deny Kevin's point that the iTunes style scroll bar fits far better with the new Finder theme than the traditional Aqua scroll bar. Anyone think otherwise?

Nah, I agree with that. Though the traffic lights bother me more with the new, garish colors.

Originally Posted by besson3c

I fail to see the relevance on focusing on scrollbars in responding to my post.

Well, the scrollbars have kind of been the focus of this GUI consistency discussion all along.

besson3c · Oct 19, 2007, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Nah, I agree with that. Though the traffic lights bother me more with the new, garish colors.

Well, the scrollbars have kind of been the focus of this GUI consistency discussion all along.

I guess I was thrown by all of the screenshots of OS 9 into thinking we were making this conversation broader in scope. I also rarely read Kevin's posts.

Sorry about this! You can't say my posts were off topic though as per the subject of this thread

Kevin · Oct 19, 2007, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Read Neo's comment. There was no pre-Steve OS 9. In fact, there was no pre-Steve OS using the Platinum skin at all - Amelio got booted from Apple on July 9, 1997, and OS 8 came out on July 26 (per Wikipedia).

Again I just said "Pre steve in general" Before Steve there was no BM. I stated it started when BM was being shoved onto us.

The one with the least Jobs influence would be OS 8, of course. And it was a cornucopia of window styles:

Except for the Media player (Which had a Platinum skin you could add to it) the rest were pretty consistent. The others that didn't match OS 8 were OLD application that Apple HARD CODED the GUI into. And they were few and far between. BUT YAY you found a few obscure OS 8 Apple GUis.

That doesn't detract from what I said though. Platinum-Pre jobs was still more consistent. Taking what someone said, and turning into something extreme doesn't do anyone a service.

From what I said to "It never went against the rules!!!!"

Not to mention that a lot of third-party apps still hadn't been updated and ended up having UI elements looking like the older System 7 style still (Netscape's menus come to mind).

S0 did Quark. (And for the record, these companies got slammed for it too)And for the 4th time. I wasn't talking about third party applications.

Originally Posted by Big Mac

You're mostly showing utilities that have always had non-standard appearances. Look across the spectrum of classic apps, however, and you'll hardly ever see two distinctly different styles of scroll bars.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Right, but I'm talking about the Finder. The new dark folders don't match the Aqua scroll bars, for one.

Nope, not at all

Originally Posted by besson3c

I guess I was thrown by all of the screenshots of OS 9 into thinking we were making this conversation broader in scope. I also rarely read Kevin's posts.

Yet you continually talk about me and posts in my threads.

Kevin · 03:23 PM

Anyhow, enough of the from the hissing and honking peanut gallery.

Here is a good article. It's when aqua first came out

The Graphical User Interface - Time for a Paradigm Shift?

Consistency
Consistency is seen as one of the most essential principles in interface design. Once a user has learned how to use an interface, e.g. where to click for a special action, the learned interface should stay consistent. This should not only apply to interactions within one application, but also to different versions of one application.

Effective applications are consistent in an number of different ways. Consistency in the visual interface helps people learn and then easily recognize the graphic language of the interface. (...) Consistency in the behavior of the interface means that people have to learn how to do things such as clicking and pointing only once; then they can explore new applications or new types of features using skills that they already have.

In the OSX interface consistency rules are broken. Menus are not where they used to be anymore, the Finder and its functionality is not the same, to resize a window users now click a button on the left instead the right upper corner, etc.
Apple users are forced to learn new features and re-learn old actions, which can be problematic and confusing for them. However, novice users who have not used Apple interfaces before won´t have these problems.

The Apple User-Interface Guidelines.

Apple released a guide-book called "Macintosh Human Interface Guidelines" together with their first Operating System in order to accompany users and guide software developers. Apple´s design principles and philosophy of their once so simplistic interface are described and illustrated by "how to do"- and "how not to do"- examples. Together with new Operating Systems up to OS9 Apple always updated their User Interface Guidelines. There is no such guidelines for the new OSX yet. With its overall new design-approach, the OSX interface might now force Apple to completely overthink their User Interface Guidelines, as many statements from their original book don´t seem to match anymore.

Consistency
Consistency is seen as one of the most essential principles in interface design. Once a user has learned how to use an interface, e.g. where to click for a special action, the learned interface should stay consistent. This should not only apply to interactions within one application, but also to different versions of one application.

Effective applications are consistent in an number of different ways. Consistency in the visual interface helps people learn and then easily recognize the graphic language of the interface. (...) Consistency in the behavior of the interface means that people have to learn how to do things such as clicking and pointing only once; then they can explore new applications or new types of features using skills that they already have.

In the OSX interface consistency rules are broken. Menus are not where they used to be anymore, the Finder and its functionality is not the same, to resize a window users now click a button on the left instead the right upper corner, etc.
Apple users are forced to learn new features and re-learn old actions, which can be problematic and confusing for them. However, novice users who have not used Apple interfaces before won´t have these problems.

When consistency is common, it is taken forgranted and the user comes to rely upon it. But when things we have learned to rely on suddenly become unavailable, it can be worse than if they never existed at all. 12

Keep the graphics of the display simple. The number of elements and their behaviours should be limited to enhance the usability of the interface. Graphics - icons, windows, dialog boxes, and so on - are the basis of effective human-computer interaction and must be designed with that in mind. Don´t clutter the screen with too many windows, overload the user with complex icons, or put dozens pf buttons in dialog boxes. 13

And it goes on.

But I am sure these guys know nothing about what they are talking about.

Not that ANY of this has to do with Leopard, its GUI and what you do or do not like about it. Any further disruptions and I'll just start reporting the infractions. It's getting old guys.

Either discuss this like adults, or move on.

0157988944 · Oct 19, 2007, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

The one with the least Jobs influence would be OS 8, of course. And it was a cornucopia of window styles:

<snip>

That looks pretty consistent to me. The only ones that aren't consistent are the System 1.1 dialogs, which i think fit, because they were the important "Stop and look at me" dialogs. Calculator, also, but that was just a carryover. Everything else's windows frames and windows look pretty much the same.

Kevin · Oct 19, 2007, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

That looks pretty consistent to me. The only ones that aren't consistent are the System 1.1 dialogs, which i think fit, because they were the important "Stop and look at me" dialogs. Calculator, also, but that was just a carryover. Everything else's windows frames and windows look pretty much the same.

The system 1.1 dialog was also written in ROM.. and the rest do look a like.

CharlesS · 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Consistency is seen as one of the most essential principles in interface design. Once a user has learned how to use an interface, e.g. where to click for a special action, the learned interface should stay consistent. This should not only apply to interactions within one application, but also to different versions of one application.

Effective applications are consistent in an number of different ways. Consistency in the visual interface helps people learn and then easily recognize the graphic language of the interface. (...) Consistency in the behavior of the interface means that people have to learn how to do things such as clicking and pointing only once; then they can explore new applications or new types of features using skills that they already have.

Seems like they're focusing on behavioral consistency. Look at all their specific examples - where to click for a special action, learning to click and point. And I don't get this complaint:

In the OSX interface consistency rules are broken. Menus are not where they used to be anymore, the Finder and its functionality is not the same, to resize a window users now click a button on the left instead the right upper corner, etc.

Not being exactly the same as OS 9 was makes it inconsistent?

I guess the original Mac "broke interface consistency rules" also for not being the same as the Lisa or the Apple II. Am I missing something here?

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

That looks pretty consistent to me. The only ones that aren't consistent are the System 1.1 dialogs, which i think fit, because they were the important "Stop and look at me" dialogs. Calculator, also, but that was just a carryover. Everything else's windows frames and windows look pretty much the same.

But are they in comparison to the Aqua scrollbars vs. the iTunes scrollbars? The only difference there is the color.

0157988944 · Oct 19, 2007, 05:07 PM

The scrollbars are really no big deal... it's more the principle of the thing. They have less than 10 more Aqua things to update and they don't do it? They already have the resources from iTunes! That's just puzzling.

Kevin · Oct 19, 2007, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Seems like they're focusing on behavioral consistency. Look at all their specific examples - where to click for a special action, learning to click and point.

My point is, the included the LOOK as part of all the equation. That consistency in the LOOK has a big role in it as well.

Not being exactly the same as OS 9 was makes it inconsistent?

That isn't what I got out of what he said.

But are they in comparison to the Aqua scrollbars vs. the iTunes scrollbars?

I would say yes, they are more consistent than those two compared.

Kevin · Oct 19, 2007, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

The scrollbars are really no big deal... it's more the principle of the thing.

Well they do clash with the rest of the the theme...

They have less than 10 more Aqua things to update and they don't do it? They already have the resources from iTunes! That's just puzzling.

Yup. and that is what puzzled me. I remember iTunes as being the application that always adopted new GUI ideas Apple had. So when I saw the new scrollbars and look, I figured .. well there is how Leopard will probably look. While I have my own complaints about the iTunes, iApp scrollbars, I would have been happy had ALL the scrolls-bars just simply looked the same.

It's almost as if Steve wants a 10.5 to have a schizophrenic GUI.

My only guess is, He wants to move people over slowly. Not pull the bandaid off all at once. To slowly kill Aqua instead of just putting it out of it's misery in one OS update.

OR they were really planning on something much more elaborate, but couldn't get past all the bugs at the time, and it was scrapped.

Who knows. My guess is, no one will. All I know is, Unified isn't as slick as I was hoping it would be. But it's better than Aqua. I give it that.

.Neo · 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Well they do clash with the rest of the the theme...

Funny you should say that because I heard absolutely no one complain about it during the iTunes 5 and 6 days. Not one complaint about the Aqua scroll bars not matching the Dark Unified window theme. In fact many people did the best they could to bring those same Aqua scroll bars back to iTunes 7.

I for one don't think they clash and in many ways I prefer them over the boring and bland looking ones of iTunes. I just love how Apple managed to make the ripple effect stay still while they scroll bar moves (not sure how to explain that one). But there's definitely room for improvement and, well change.

Kevin · 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by .Neo

Funny you should say that because I heard absolutely no one complain about it during the iTunes 5 and 6 days. Not one complaint about the Aqua scroll bars not matching the Dark Unified window theme.

I never said it didn't match Unified window. Of course it does. It doesn't match with the OTHER GUI elements that they have added. Like the new folders for example. The new non-aqua buttons. Like adamfishercox has shown. There are only a few Aqua elements left TO update.

Now since iTunes got the new scrollbars that didn't match the rest of OS X, there was A LOT of complaints. "WTF? Why did they do that?" SO many complaints that someone made a fix for it so it matches with 10.4's GUI and MacUpdate, Versiontracker host it. (check out how many downloads there are)

This will be the same way once 10.5 hits. People will either be making the Finder use the iTunes and iApps scrollbars, or they will modify the resources of those that have the blue scroll bars to match the Finder's Aqua ones.

No, not everyone will. And not everyone will care. But enough do (thank God) that matter.

Even though I don't like the looks of the Aqua scroll bars, I'd rather iTunes and the IApps that have the blue scroll bars have Aqua ones just so it's consistent.

But since I think the blue ones match tad better, I am going to do the opposite.

I've already had almost a dozen people msg me about it, and I don't even have Leopard installed yet.

So let Apple do what it wants with it's GUI. Just as long as I am still able to fix the things I think need fixed. Everything will be ok.

Apple eventually adopts them anyhow (darker GUI, no stripes, no brushed metal)

BTW Max's Smooth Stripes scroll bars are 10x better than Apple's implementation. Not only that, they actually are more consistent with the button change Apple made that the time.

The fact that a kid like Max could spot these things, and fix them in the time he did says miles about the state Apple's GUI team is in right now.

Having said that, the iPhone GUI looks nice.

.Neo · Oct 19, 2007, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

BTW Max's Smooth Stripes scroll bars are 10x better than Apple's implementation. Not only that, they actually are more consistent with the button change Apple made that the time.

The fact that a kid like Max could spot these things, and fix them in the time he did says miles about the state Apple's GUI team is in right now.

I really couldn't go through reading everything carefully, but I definitely agree on that. Aqua Extreme has lovely scroll bars.

Kevin · Oct 19, 2007, 06:31 PM

They would not stick out as much as Apple's would. But I still prefer iTune's

I just like that matte look.

monkeybrain · Oct 19, 2007, 11:19 PM

I really think you fellas who are hung up on these scrollbars should just try and ignore it for the moment. The debate is going around in circles; we all know they look bad (and have for years). What we all also know is that everything is ultimately down to Steve. He's the king and whatever takes his fancy is the rule of the moment.

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by monkeybrain

I really think you fellas who are hung up on these scrollbars should just try and ignore it for the moment.

For the 400th billion time it's just not the scrollbars

We are talking about the GUI as a whole.

The debate is going around in circles; we all know they look bad (and have for years). What we all also know is that everything is ultimately down to Steve. He's the king and whatever takes his fancy is the rule of the moment.

That doesn't mean we can't discuss it. I mean Steve liked Brushed Metal and stripes too didn't he? Where are they now?

.Neo · Oct 20, 2007, 08:31 AM

Front Row has an updated default icon. A red chair instead of the round Apple Remote button area.

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 09:06 AM

Lets talk about some fine GUIs I saw over in the screenshot thread.

This first one, I REALLY like it's button's and menu's a over all layout. Don't like the dock, though it does look nice. iTunes look awesome. Esp the "stop light" buttons

http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs21/f/20...sychopulse.jpg

Another nice one. This one reminds me of what Leopard maybe should have looked like. Minus the green tint and maybe different window widgets.

http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs21/f/20...y_kal_el84.png

There are TONS of great looking themes over in that screenshot thread that I would say topples Unified in many ways.

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 09:12 AM

Another nice one

http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs20/f/20...y_kal_el84.png

.Neo · Oct 20, 2007, 09:44 AM

In what way does that relate to "Official Leopard GUI discussion"?

TETENAL · Oct 20, 2007, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by .Neo

Front Row has an updated default icon. A red chair instead of the round Apple Remote button area.

You are right.

Where is Address Book? Where is AppleScript?

How does one use this stack to launch iWork applications? Does it always open the iWork folder in Finder where you have to double-click?

Kevin · 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by .Neo

In what way does that relate to "Official Leopard GUI discussion"?

Those screenshots have elements in them that both Leopard, and the iTunes GUI has.

By examining Leopard's GUI, I am saying what I think could make it better. The screenshots I have shown are examples of the consistency I was referring to. Plus Ideas that Leopard could have used instead.

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Where is Address Book? Where is AppleScript?

Is that really a GUI question? Thats more of an application question.

As far as your other question, that would have to be left to someone that has used the GM.

.Neo · Oct 20, 2007, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

You are right.

I know!

Originally Posted by Kevin

Those screenshots have elements in them that both Leopard, and the iTunes GUI has.

By examining Leopard's GUI, I am saying what I think could make it better. The screenshots I have shown are examples of the consistency I was referring to. Plus Ideas that Leopard could have used instead.

I don't like any of those themes, especially the second one which looks extremely depressing. So I'm glad Apple didn't.

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 01:05 PM

I am not referring to the actual LOOK of the themes themselves. But the consistency. I wouldn't use either of those themes myself (Not that they were bad, just not my style)

BTW someone I know is helping me out with a early preview.

I will be hacking theme resources soon.

Chuckit · Oct 20, 2007, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Where is Address Book? Where is AppleScript?

How does one use this stack to launch iWork applications? Does it always open the iWork folder in Finder where you have to double-click?

I think in previous builds that is how it worked. Don't know anyone who's tried the GM.

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 01:46 PM

Good post

Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.

Does user interface consistency issues get in the way of work? The answer is obvious. However, we are not just talking "Good enough" Microsoft style, are we. This is Apple. This is a brand new OS and UI consistency is one of the main things it is touted for bringing to the table. It fails there. That is a big deal. This is a company that fusses over trying designing a computer with no visible screw for crying out loud. this is a company that won't use certain components to maintain a certain thinness of its products.

Some degree of inconsistency so long as it is purposed, would be fine. ala brushed metal vs gradient in Tiger. Not going to the iTunes theme, but neglecting to go all the way, promising a certain look with iLife, but then failing to put the proper polish in with the rest of the OS / apps.

When designers work on the look of something, they are paid to get it right. In this case, something is amiss. Apple seems so devoted to the iPhone right now that it looks great, but the new OS is looking somewhat like a beta. It looks like a mashup of two ideas and not a proper UI design.

Now, I said I am excited about the under the hood improvements and that is true. I will probably replace my Powerbook with a Macbook Pro right after Leopard comes out so that I can have that new OS (and an intel mac - still can't believe my two year old purchase is obsolete already) ASAP. However, I will hold out hope that point releases fix the UI inconsistencies along with the inevitable bugs.

To sum up, the UI should be consistent as it is actually a major selling point and it is apple and it is a new OS. Let's just be honest here, it won't break the purchase decision for many and it won't affect performance or workflow, but it does look not quite right and it seems amateurish. You have to agree that Apple looked like they were completing the look when you saw iLife 08. That is what they should have done.

Boycott: Not buying Leopard until those Jellybeans die! - Page 2 - AppleInsider

CharlesS · Oct 20, 2007, 01:54 PM

Because if some guy on the AppleInsider forums said so, it must be true!

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 02:08 PM

Like always, attack the messenger and not the message... I think you've made it pretty obvious that you simply aren't interested in this discussion Charles.

So why ruin it for everyone else that is?

besson3c · Oct 20, 2007, 02:23 PM

I would like to put my own picture within each of the window traffic lights, and I want them to spin when I put my mouse over them.

TETENAL · Oct 20, 2007, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I would like to put my own picture within each of the window traffic lights, and I want them to spin when I put my mouse over them.

Go download Linux then.

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 02:32 PM

Well linux wont just do it FOR him now will it.

I find it amusing that a few people that claim "this and that" don't matter are even posting in this thread.

It's almost like they can't help themselves.

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 02:36 PM

BTW here is an example of something non-consistent, but still works. "Info" panels that hold info about the content you are displaying being black and translucent.

As long as ALL said info panels are this way, this is fine. You know that when you see a window that looks like that, It's an info or inspector panel. And I really think it looks great.

BTW I love the widgets on the top. Tasteful while not being obnoxious and out of date looking.

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 02:39 PM

I could even live with the grey widgets on top. (Esp with Apple's viewing tech built in instead. And their cool blue folders)

Blaze New Media: Blog � Tackling Mac OS X Leopard's Finder

'

I am not the only one that thought and hoped that was the direction Apple was going.

Faust · Oct 20, 2007, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Lets talk about some fine GUIs I saw over in the screenshot thread.

This first one, I REALLY like it's button's and menu's a over all layout. Don't like the dock, though it does look nice. iTunes look awesome. Esp the "stop light" buttons

http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs21/f/20...sychopulse.jpg

Another nice one. This one reminds me of what Leopard maybe should have looked like. Minus the green tint and maybe different window widgets.

http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs21/f/20...y_kal_el84.png

There are TONS of great looking themes over in that screenshot thread that I would say topples Unified in many ways.

The first one looks nice though it is very specific in terms of style so not that suited for general interests in my opinion.

The problem I am having constantly is that there are no custom styles I really like for a longer period of time so I find myself switching back to the original Mac OS X theme after a few weeks of having tried out a non-standard theme. I even bought ShapeShifter to get access to more styles but, in the long run, they do nothing for me. So, something as simple as Unified is quite to my taste. Not perfect, not incredibly creative but solid. The only thing I would change these days are the icons for the dock as they are too colourful and resemble a candy bar more than anything else.

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Faust

The problem I am having constantly is that there are no custom styles I really like for a longer period of time so I find myself switching back to the original Mac OS X theme after a few weeks of having tried out a non-standard theme.

I usually uses variants of the original theme. And just remove the stuff that annoy me. That way the consistency is there and I don't have to use applications or hacks like Shapeshifter.

For example, when 10.0 came out I REALLY disliked the stripes. The rest of it I could live with. So when I removed the stripes I noticed it was too bright so I darkened it a bit. And made shadows a bit less exaggerated.

When Brushed metal came out, I simply replace it with something I did like. As long as you stick with the basic GUI look and layout, you don't have to have SS or any other theme changer to modify it to your liking.

I am curious as to how one does it in 10.5 however. I will be looking into that tomorrow.

Over ALL 10.5 is better because now it only uses one real window design. That in itself is a big improvement over the past versions of OS X. It just needs to unify the rest of the OS.

I guess Steve is trying to keep Aqua on life support as long as he can, or is attempting a smooth GUI transition to where people barely notice. Either way, it looks sophomoric. IMHO.

It's time for Apple to move on. Those that still want to use Aqua for nostalgic reasons will be able to through a theme app etc.

besson3c · Oct 20, 2007, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Go download Linux then.

No traffic lights in Gnome or KDE

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

No traffic lights in Gnome or KDE

lies!

http://pagux.com/pics/linuxosx.png

Quality work too. What I expect from the Linux community when it comes to fine GUI workmanship!

besson3c · Oct 20, 2007, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Go download Linux then.

Actually, I did just upgrade to Gutsy, and I've been impressed with how well performing and tasteful the 3D effects are now. Compiz is no longer considered experimental in Gutsy, and its usage is actually pretty slick... Check it out if you have the opportunity.

Kevin · Oct 20, 2007, 03:07 PM

Ok lets get back on topic. If you wanna talk about Linux GUI go to ilikelinuxalot.com or something.

Thanks.

Chuckit · Oct 20, 2007, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

lies!

http://pagux.com/pics/linuxosx.png

Quality work too. What I expect from the Linux community when it comes to fine GUI workmanship!

Oh God, it burns! I'm sorry for anything bad I've said about Leopard's theme!

besson3c · Oct 20, 2007, 03:33 PM

That image is from Dec. 2005, so I guess that would be a poor copy of Panther? Or was Tiger out then? Lost track of time...

Horsepoo!!! · Oct 20, 2007, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

That image is from Dec. 2005, so I guess that would be a poor copy of Panther? Or was Tiger out then? Lost track of time...

Tiger has been around since forever (April or May 2005 IIRC).

So I'm a tad disappointed that 2 years later they couldn't *really* fix the inconsistency problem. Hell...the dark platinum uniform look was introduced in a very late build...the WWDC build.

Leopard is awesome...but not "I had to wait 2 years for this" awesome. When you factor in the time between Tiger and Leopard, this release only look ho-hum. The only reason why it's got 300 features instead of 200 is because it had a full extra year of development behind it...so, really we should be getting 400+ features and not 300. At this point though, I would have been plenty happy if every little widget redesign counted as a single feature.

...
Feature 351 - Redesign of the Aqua checkbox to match the new Leopard look.
Feature 352 - Redesign of the Aqua radio button to match the new Leopard look.
Feature 353 - Redesign of the Aqua scrollbar to match the new Leopard look.
...

besson3c · Oct 20, 2007, 04:27 PM

I don't think there is a relationship between time elapsed and number of features you can jam into an OS. There is also something to be said about not jamming features into an OS. OS X is not a terribly good performing OS as it is. I'd rather they spend this time to optimize what we already have (as they have done with the Finder, so it seems).

Horsepoo!!! · Oct 20, 2007, 04:41 PM

edit : double posts make me sad...I thought double posting was a thing of the past here...how can editing a message create a new post?

Horsepoo!!! · Oct 20, 2007, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't think there is a relationship between time elapsed and number of features you can jam into an OS. There is also something to be said about not jamming features into an OS. OS X is not a terribly good performing OS as it is. I'd rather they spend this time to optimize what we already have (as they have done with the Finder, so it seems).

There certainly is a relationship...whether it's weak or strong can be the object discussion...the relationship *is* there.

I think Mac OS X performs very well...so that one is entirely an opinion. Besides...optimizations don't sell (well they do when you're given a very slow and unoptimized OS at version 10.0 and slowly make it faster every release and forcing people to upgrade to enjoy an actual usable OS) and they're also a given.

TETENAL · Oct 20, 2007, 07:32 PM

Now discuss the Time Machine GUI!

Horsepoo!!! · Oct 20, 2007, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Now discuss the Time Machine GUI!

I have mixed feelings about it. I'm scared to see how other developers will use Core Animation (this one could bring huge inconsistencies in GUIs, moreso than brushed-metal ever brought in terms of UI inconsistency.

However(!) I do believe the Time Machine interface to be easy to use and acceptable for its context...I'm having a hard time imagining something that could visually represent going back in time to retrieve a file using the conventional interface.

The only thing that I really hate about the Time Machine interface is how the buttons are on a slant...wtf Apple.

0157988944 · Oct 20, 2007, 07:58 PM

I think that time machine is a better place for the 3D dock. it could replace the slanted toolbar and have a restore icon sitting on it, etc. Then we could have a nice dock on the real desktop.

CharlesS · Oct 20, 2007, 08:19 PM

Actually, the Time Machine's GUI, as seen in this movie, (that's right, Steve, it's public information) is fairly retarded. Invoking Time Machine causes the frontmost Finder window to be displayed in Time Machine's interface, but the way to invoke Time Machine is to launch an application. And if you decide to save Dock space by not including the Time Machine icon there, then in order to launch the app, you'd have to navigate to the Applications folder - which changes the frontmost Finder window! Not the most brilliant UI design I've ever seen.