[Link]

I'm sure there's a mob of dual 2ghz owners who bought their towers a week or two ago who'd kill to not see a pm update anytime soon.

Let's face it, they're dropping off these things like staling cake now..

It's gonna happen soon.

[driven]

Originally posted by Link:
I'm sure there's a mob of dual 2ghz owners who bought their towers a week or two ago who'd kill to not see a pm update anytime soon.

Let's face it, they're dropping off these things like staling cake now..

It's gonna happen soon.

Why?

Would the machines that they just bought work less well than they did before an announcement?

Would they work better if an announcement wasn't made?

Aside from the perceived bragging rights of "I got a good price" which is dubious in the technology arena anyway I'm not sure that I follow the logic.

Yes .... if you think something better is coming out then it makes sense to wait and evaluate if you can get more for your money, but once you make the purchase what's the difference?

If I buy a 2004 car and a 2005 comes out at a lower price with better features (built-in martini mixer?) does that make my 2004 purchase less useful, or regretable? For me, no. For others ... ???

[BrunoBruin]

Originally posted by driven:
Aside from the perceived bragging rights of "I got a good price" which is dubious in the technology arena anyway I'm not sure that I follow the logic.

You're right, of course, but you know as well as the rest of us that every product announcement is followed by a chorus of "Apple just hosed me" posts. It happens with hardware ("I just bought a single 1.8 G5 and now I could have had a dual!"), it happens with software ("I just bought a Mac and now I have to pay $129 for Panther?!") and it will happen with the new G5s. Link isn't saying it's right, he's just saying it will happen, and it will.

[driven]

Originally posted by BrunoBruin:
You're right, of course, but you know as well as the rest of us that every product announcement is followed by a chorus of "Apple just hosed me" posts. It happens with hardware ("I just bought a single 1.8 G5 and now I could have had a dual!"), it happens with software ("I just bought a Mac and now I have to pay $129 for Panther?!") and it will happen with the new G5s. Link isn't saying it's right, he's just saying it will happen, and it will.

of course you are correct. DOH!

I don't understand it, but I certainly do witness it.
(Kind of like gravity I guess.)

[3.1416]

Originally posted by driven:
but once you make the purchase what's the difference?

Resale value.

[Lateralus]

Originally posted by driven:
...but once you make the purchase what's the difference?

'Geek penis' size.

[MartStaffs]

To be honest I've just bought a Power Mac Dual 1.8 G5 and I'm not too bothered about there being an imminent update. I'm quite happy with what I've got; this is probably cos of the fact what now took over four minutes in Lightwave on a gigabyte G4 now takes a minute ten seconds - which incidently is exactly ten seconds behind the Dual 2 Ghz machine.

[starman]

Same here. Went for a refurbed dual 2.0 G5 for $600 less than retail. If they announced dual 2.5's tomorrow I wouldn't care because I got this at a good price, and I can wait for the dual 3's.

Now, if they announced dual 3's tomorrow.....

Mike

[Eug]

Originally posted by MartStaffs:
To be honest I've just bought a Power Mac Dual 1.8 G5 and I'm not too bothered about there being an imminent update.

Not to mention that if 2.4 duals were released tomorrow there might be shipping delays too of several weeks.

I'm quite happy with what I've got; this is probably cos of the fact what now took over four minutes in Lightwave on a gigabyte G4 now takes a minute ten seconds - which incidently is exactly ten seconds behind the Dual 2 Ghz machine.

How fast was your G4?

[Rev-O]

Originally posted by starman:
Same here. Went for a refurbed dual 2.0 G5 for $600 less than retail. If they announced dual 2.5's tomorrow I wouldn't care because I got this at a good price, and I can wait for the dual 3's.

Now, if they announced dual 3's tomorrow.....

Mike

I'm still tickled with my dual 2 gig and my 23" cinema display. Wouldn't be worth the switch for dual 3's for me. However, if they did dual 3's AND got around to the oft rumored 30" high def cinema display, I thinking my dual 2 and 23" are out the door!

Geez, how stupid is that. Flame me for being a consumer whore, please!

[Turias]

Originally posted by Rev-O:
Geez, how stupid is that. Flame me for being a consumer whore, please!

Seriously.

Would you like to trade for my G4/400 and 17 inch CRT Studio Display?

[MartStaffs]

Eug, my PowerMac was a 400 mhz that acquired a dual 500 sonnet G4 upgrade and a gig o' ram. And I still think that if new macs came out tomorrow I wouldn't be that gutted or bothered. I'm really happy with the results I'm getting with the G5 from the brief time I've had it

[starman]

Originally posted by Rev-O:
I'm still tickled with my dual 2 gig and my 23" cinema display. Wouldn't be worth the switch for dual 3's for me. However, if they did dual 3's AND got around to the oft rumored 30" high def cinema display, I thinking my dual 2 and 23" are out the door!

Geez, how stupid is that. Flame me for being a consumer whore, please!

Oh, a 23" CD is big enough for me. I brought one home last night and it's more physical real estate than I think I'll EVER need. I love it. I needed something that had a 1200 pixel height for 1600x1200 art.

As for the G5, I love the thing to death, but I can't install Final Cut Pro 3 on it since the installer, that runs in Classic mode, doesn't see that Panther is actually OS X and quits...so the whole POINT of getting the G5 now dies since I can't render video with it until I get the problem solved.

Mike

[SouthPaW1227]

Originally posted by starman:
Oh, a 23" CD is big enough for me. I brought one home last night and it's more physical real estate than I think I'll EVER need. I love it. I needed something that had a 1200 pixel height for 1600x1200 art.

As for the G5, I love the thing to death, but I can't install Final Cut Pro 3 on it since the installer, that runs in Classic mode, doesn't see that Panther is actually OS X and quits...so the whole POINT of getting the G5 now dies since I can't render video with it until I get the problem solved.

Mike

Easy. Obviously you've got 10.2 lying around right? Wipe the G5's HD, install 10.2, install FCP3, install Panther upgrade.

[Eug]

Call Apple for an updater or something.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by Rev-O:
I'm still tickled with my dual 2 gig and my 23" cinema display. Wouldn't be worth the switch for dual 3's for me. However, if they did dual 3's AND got around to the oft rumored 30" high def cinema display, I thinking my dual 2 and 23" are out the door!

Geez, how stupid is that. Flame me for being a consumer whore, please!

Consider yourself FLAMED!!!! Now if we just had a flaming smiley...

[Rev-O]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Consider yourself FLAMED!!!! Now if we just had a flaming smiley...

Flaming smiley and vomiting smiley would be wonderful.

Or would that be a flamed smiley? Flaming smiley may have a different meaning...

[tie]

Originally posted by driven:
Why?
..
Aside from the perceived bragging rights of "I got a good price" which is dubious in the technology arena anyway I'm not sure that I follow the logic.

Yes .... if you think something better is coming out then it makes sense to wait and evaluate if you can get more for your money, but once you make the purchase what's the difference?

I'm not sure that regret is ever logical, but it's certainly a fact of life for many people to various degrees.

[fizzlemynizzle]

Originally posted by 3.1416:
Resale value.

Resale value in computers!? People who are concerned about computer resale value have no business buying computers.

[Jerome]

Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
Resale value in computers!? People who are concerned about computer resale value have no business buying computers.

Well yes and no. Macs have very good resale values for computers. A 5 months old PC isn't worth anything but I sold my old G4 350Mhz just before they announced the G5 and i got half the price that I paid, over three years before. That would have been very different if I would have sold it after the G5 introduction.

[Hinson]

Originally posted by driven:
Why?

Would the machines that they just bought work less well than they did before an announcement?

Would they work better if an announcement wasn't made?

Aside from the perceived bragging rights of "I got a good price" which is dubious in the technology arena anyway I'm not sure that I follow the logic.

Yes .... if you think something better is coming out then it makes sense to wait and evaluate if you can get more for your money, but once you make the purchase what's the difference?

If I buy a 2004 car and a 2005 comes out at a lower price with better features (built-in martini mixer?) does that make my 2004 purchase less useful, or regretable? For me, no. For others ... ???

The car example doesn't fit. No one worries that in 3 years their car won't run on the latest roads and if they had just waited one month to buy, then their car would still be good enough to drive the latest roads for another six months.

That's one of my concerns--if you buy just before a newly announced model comes out, at some point in the future (perhaps as little as 3 years), some software being updated will list the machine you just missed buying as its lowest common denominator (or at least it will be the slowest machine anyone would really want to run the software on). If I can make my computer purchasing dollars extend in value for 6-8 months by waiting a month or two before making my purchase, then it�s generally worth it to me.

If you buy a G5 now and new models ship in a month, you suddenly fall about 6 months behind the new standard, which in just a few years in the computer world could be the lowest common denominator for several pieces of software. In essence, a new announcement right after you buy costs you in terms of how much time you�re machine is considered to be an acceptably fast machine.

The same is true when progress in computer upgrades speeds up. Your computer becomes outdated more quickly. It doesn�t make your machine any slower or keep you from running the software you currently run, but it does make it harder for you to upgrade software in the future. In various cases, the extent to which powerful features can be added to a piece of software depends on how fast the current computers run. If progress is fast, your computer gets left behind more quickly, even though it obviously doesn�t slow down or stop running the old software. It still means you get behind the curve quicker.

It�s a sad state, but in some ways its nice to see slower progress made right after you purchase your computer. It�s not about bragging rights, its about having more time before software makers consider your machine too far behind the curve to support.

Just some thoughts.


-Jay

P.S. Of course, if you have the money to upgrade to the latest thing every 2 years, then this isn't really that big an issue. But as for me, I need my Mac-purchasing dollars to last as long as I can possibly make them last.

[Lateralus]

Originally posted by Jerome:
Well yes and no. Macs have very good resale values for computers. A 5 months old PC isn't worth anything but I sold my old G4 350Mhz just before they announced the G5 and i got half the price that I paid, over three years before. That would have been very different if I would have sold it after the G5 introduction.

Ah, the treasure of Mac ownership: Resale value.

I sold my 1999 Power Mac G3 B&W with 256MBs of RAM, a 2GB hard drive, the stock CD-ROM, Rage 128 and a $200 900MHz processor upgrade for $520 last month.

[driven]

Originally posted by Hinson:
The car example doesn't fit. No one worries that in 3 years their car won't run on the latest roads and if they had just waited one month to buy, then their car would still be good enough to drive the latest roads for another six months.

[snip]

Your example doesn't work too much better.

You are buying a machine for use with software that doesn't exist yet? The latest machine is the "new standard" ?

I generally buy machines for software that I need now. If an upgrade will run on my current hardware then I'll consider it on the merits of it's new features. If it requires a new bit of hardware I'll buy it on the merits of it's features vs. it's cost including hardware.

I know what you are saying ... I'm just not sure I agree with it.

[WizOSX]

All quotes Originally posted by Hinson

That's one of my concerns--if you buy just before a newly announced model comes out, at some point in the future (perhaps as little as 3 years), some software being updated will list the machine you just missed buying as its lowest common denominator (or at least it will be the slowest machine anyone would really want to run the software on). If I can make my computer purchasing dollars extend in value for 6-8 months by waiting a month or two before making my purchase, then it�s generally worth it to me.

In one sense I fundamentally agree with you--if you can wait, then by all means wait. You know you will always do better by waiting. But that says you can afford to wait--i.e. your current machine isn't bothering you so much that its urgent to buy immediately. Also consider, though, that if waiting a few months for a new model to be announced means that you will get that model in 5-6 months then you are giving up 6 months of a faster machine now to get a faster one for the last 6 months that you own the machine 3 years down the line. That may be worthwhile to you, maybe not. I think this just points out that you are trading off the timing now vs. buying just a little sooner in a few years. Some people would rather have those 6 months now than in the future. Only you can decide.

If you buy a G5 now and new models ship in a month, you suddenly fall about 6 months behind the new standard, which in just a few years in the computer world could be the lowest common denominator for several pieces of software. In essence, a new announcement right after you buy costs you in terms of how much time you�re machine is considered to be an acceptably fast machine.

The same is true when progress in computer upgrades speeds up. Your computer becomes outdated more quickly. It doesn�t make your machine any slower or keep you from running the software you currently run, but it does make it harder for you to upgrade software in the future. In various cases, the extent to which powerful features can be added to a piece of software depends on how fast the current computers run. If progress is fast, your computer gets left behind more quickly, even though it obviously doesn�t slow down or stop running the old software. It still means you get behind the curve quicker.

But I'm not sure it is quite as discrete and "all at once" as you say. New software, with new features, may run a little more slowly on older machines. But software makers want to sell software to the installed base of machines and so try to make it run satisfactorily on older machines. In fact, it is more that newer machines are slowed down by the fact that the newest software can't be written to fully exploit their features.

It�s a sad state, but in some ways its nice to see slower progress made right after you purchase your computer. It�s not about bragging rights, its about having more time before software makers consider your machine too far behind the curve to support.

I understand fully what you're saying and I think we all feel that way--we don't want to feel that the machine we just bought "could" have been better. But there is nothing you can do about that. Consider the alternative--go back to the "bad old days" about 1-2 years ago when we got pathetic speed improvements vs a vs the Intel world. For the buyer the current situation is the best it could be. If you were just about to buy would you want to turn the clock back a year just to keep things stable? No, if you're just about to buy you are gald that you can get the fastest possible machine for your money--and one that will give you the most possible speed in a year or so. And since you're getting more for your money it hurts less to have to buy again in 2.5 years instead of 3!

[Eug Wanker]

Of course, this wouldn't be an issue if Apple weren't so secretive.

[Truepop]

I am not complaining about the update speeds, I would like a bit more of a regular update pattern though. I mean if Apple didn't say 3GHz by next year I would have a machine right now, and if their updates were closer together I would have a machine right now.

Instead of jumping to 600MHz in 8 or 9 months (from june) update about 3 months at 200MHz. More people would buy more regularly. no one would wait for a small increase like that.

I understand that a lot of extra though goes in to it like chip speeds and predicting the future speeds and that if you buy a 9 month supply you save money and you get to milk the product. But I just wish updates would happen more often.

just my 2 cents, I am waiting for yet another tuesday.

[slider]

Originally posted by Truepop:
I am not complaining about the update speeds, I would like a bit more of a regular update pattern though. I mean if Apple didn't say 3GHz by next year I would have a machine right now, and if their updates were closer together I would have a machine right now.

Instead of jumping to 600MHz in 8 or 9 months (from june) update about 3 months at 200MHz. More people would buy more regularly. no one would wait for a small increase like that.

I understand that a lot of extra though goes in to it like chip speeds and predicting the future speeds and that if you buy a 9 month supply you save money and you get to milk the product. But I just wish updates would happen more often.

just my 2 cents, I am waiting for yet another tuesday.

Alas, I hear ya. I too am waiting, not for myself mind you, but my folks want a new G5, it's too much computer for them, but my dad is pretty insistant on it. I think a new iMac would be plenty;he doesn't want to upgrade again for a long while. I think this is flawed, but it's his money. I hate to tell him to go ahead and get it and then have a new release with the high end going to mid range price (at least). That's $500 difference, plus possible new Displays, at least better ones and/or price drops. They are agonizing over an iMac 333 runing OS X, not really a good combo. I don't know, it could be a month until new machines are released, or it could be tomorrow. I think Apple should just continually update the machines as they get faster chips, ie if batches increase 200MHz at a time, relaease them as they come, that way it would be more likely to maintain consistant sales you know if you wait you'll get a faster machine, if you need it now you won't feel bad when they relase a faster machine in a week, it's just 200Mhz. I realize there are a lot of unknows in my statement, might just not be realistic.

[BZ]

I wait... I shop at Apple.com... and I wait...

I said from day 1 (over a year ago) give me a rev B G5. Of course, it was not out yet, and I didn't have the money, but now it has been out for a long time and I DO have the money.

Rev B? Where 4 art thou?

New displays? 24" with matching G5 metal? Where are you?

Please o please come soon.. my money makes nothing at %.64 in the account!

BZ

[Hinson]

Originally posted by Truepop:
I am not complaining about the update speeds, I would like a bit more of a regular update pattern though. I mean if Apple didn't say 3GHz by next year I would have a machine right now, and if their updates were closer together I would have a machine right now.

Instead of jumping to 600MHz in 8 or 9 months (from june) update about 3 months at 200MHz. More people would buy more regularly. no one would wait for a small increase like that.

I understand that a lot of extra though goes in to it like chip speeds and predicting the future speeds and that if you buy a 9 month supply you save money and you get to milk the product. But I just wish updates would happen more often.

just my 2 cents, I am waiting for yet another tuesday.

I totally agree here.

Regular periodic updates can mean so much to the consumer! Waiting and waiting between major jumps to make sure you don't just miss out on the major jump is a major aggravation. It means sales that come in spirts--which are harder to keep up with--and long periods of disgruntling your customers who really want to upgrade sooner.

It also implies that your platform is not on a steady road of improvement. That was the situation for so long with the Moto G4, and I think its a bad idea to be perceived as having long periods of stagnation with the G5.

Ah well, still waiting...


-Jay

[djohnson]

Originally posted by Hinson:
That was the situation for so long with the Moto G4, and I think its a bad idea to be perceived as having long periods of stagnation with the G5.

Remember, with moto we were waiting to go faster by small increments. With IBM, there are no small increments. IBM is not going to release a small 200Mhz upgrade... They will release something big. Taking on Intel is not a small feat though it does help that they are currently stumbling. Maybe they did get all of the old mot engineers IBM wants to make a name for itself again. By creating the baddest, fastest, yet cool running chip, they will rule once more! Oh and Apple will benifit from it more then IBM will. Dual 3Ghz G5 coming soon!!!

[WizOSX]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker
Of course, this wouldn't be an issue if Apple weren't so secretive.

Originally posted by Truepop
I am not complaining about the update speeds, I would like a bit more of a regular update pattern though. I mean if Apple didn't say 3GHz by next year I would have a machine right now, and if their updates were closer together I would have a machine right now.
Instead of jumping to 600MHz in 8 or 9 months (from june) update about 3 months at 200MHz. More people would buy more regularly. no one would wait for a small increase like that.

I think you're both right here. Part of the problem, of course, is a comparison to the Windows world where new machines just keep appearing all the time--a constant flood of new models. This is mainly due to the large number of firms producing and selling them, which means models coming out from different companies all the time, and pressure put on each company to keep putting out new models as quickly as possible with small improvements in features. No large jumps like we see from Apple. But this situation will never change because we are buying Macs from just one company. And its always a back and forth between Apple satisfying us customers with better hardware and software and, on the other hand, Apple trying to extract the most profit it can get from us, in part by getting us to buy current machines by not revealing too much about the future. If they introduced new machines every month or two they would have to discount the previous models much more than they do (as happens in the Windows world--sell a model for a while and then start discounting and offering rebates just before and after the next models come out) and Apple wouldn't make as much profit. It is an uneasy relationship between us and Apple, but Apple is, after all, first and foremost a firm trying to make healthy profits. At least we should give them some credit for telling us that the 3ghz is coming about 4 months from now. That does help a lot and is more than they've often done in the past.

[WizOSX]

Originally posted by Hinson
Regular periodic updates can mean so much to the consumer! Waiting and waiting between major jumps to make sure you don't just miss out on the major jump is a major aggravation. It means sales that come in spirts--which are harder to keep up with--and long periods of disgruntling your customers who really want to upgrade sooner.

It also implies that your platform is not on a steady road of improvement. That was the situation for so long with the Moto G4, and I think its a bad idea to be perceived as having long periods of stagnation with the G5.

You are right but I think we just have to accept that this is the way it will always be. Since we buy from just one company it just won't make economic sense for them to put out a new model every few months, as much as I wish they would.

[Truepop]

Well tuesday there should be new Power Mac. I know this because wednesday an auction I was watching ending and I placed the last bid on a dual 1GHz quicksilver (I think the best looking Power Mac) with a superdrive (something my dual 867 didn't have) 1GB of RAM (768MB) and 150GB of hard drive space plus a GeForce 4 Ti card (only had a 32MB 4 MX). This should hold me off for a while and I got it for only about a $100 more than I sold my Dual 867MHz for back in December.

Now that I can't get one, They will come out. Well that is just my luck.

[Truepop]

Originally posted by Hinson:
That was the situation for so long with the Moto G4, and I think its a bad idea to be perceived as having long periods of stagnation with the G5.

That is something else I was think about when typing that. I remember when G3s and G4s beat the crap out of PIIs and PIIIs then there was about a year of no updates, I think it was at 450 or 500MHz and then Intel doubled and pased us in clock speeds. As they followed Moore's law and doubled every year, we too double but 1.3GHz x2 is a lot more than 533 x2.

[masugu]

But....what else (aside from + 500MHz) might the new G5s have in store. I ask you?

Wish list:
Extra CD drive
More FW / USB ports
New & improved (Ergo)Keyboard & Mouse

[Commodus]

I'm inclined to think that this is only going to be an update to the components' performance, rather than a redesign. There will still be only one optical drive and two hard drive bays. They'll probably keep the keyboard and mouse as well. The only real noticeable change might be new displays to match the G5's design.

[Eug]

Originally posted by Commodus:
I'm inclined to think that this is only going to be an update to the components' performance, rather than a redesign. There will still be only one optical drive and two hard drive bays. They'll probably keep the keyboard and mouse as well. The only real noticeable change might be new displays to match the G5's design.

I agree 100%.

[masugu]

Originally posted by Eug:
I agree 100%.

Crap...why did I just buy a 20" display?

[Eug]

Originally posted by masugu:
Crap...why did I just buy a 20" display?

The only real noticeable change might be new displays to match the G5's design.

I was talking more about the Power Mac case design. I don't think it's gonna change at all with the 2.5 GHz G5 update.