[Hinson]

I've been reading all about Leopard before taking the plunge myself, and two problems have jumped out at me:

The first is how stacks totally replaces the great functionality of hierarchical dock folders. The second is the lack of control over the menu bar's translucence.

Why these two things? Simple, because they are such obvious oversights, that I'm very disappointed in Apple for not recognizing them as mistakes! I mean, even if you personally don't have a problem with either of these, certainly you can understand how other reasonable users may find these aggravating problems that Apple could have easily foreseen and solved with some additional options.

Adding an option to control the amount of translucence in the menu bar is a no-brainer! I mean, come on!

As for stacks, there are all sorts of basic fixes that would alleviate most any user's frustrations. First, include a "view as folder" option to show it basically like a hierarchical folder in Tiger's Dock. Second add an option to show the folder icon on the stack rather than one of the items in the folder--I'd probably like my downloads stack to show the last download on top, but I don't want my applications stack to look like the front-most application. Finally, they could have come up with a cool combination icon indicating the folder plus stuff in the folder like you see here: Improve your Stacks with some drawers - The Unofficial Apple Weblog (TUAW)

So, here's the BIG question: Will Apple correct these problems in a timely fashion? Will they listen to users and note that some of their cool-looking concepts aren't quite as utilitarian as their users actually deserve and come out with some really good fixes? Or will Apple be more stubborn about it, believing their way was the right way and that we must simply adapt?

What do you think?


-Jay

[Big Mac]

Unfortunately, most likely no. I'm on your side, but the situation does not look positive. It took Apple six years to fix some very small yet glaring Finder bugs. And once a major OS ships one should not expect any real user interface alterations to it throughout its life cycle. Also, the assumption is that Jobs like Leopard the way it is, and most likely things will stay the way they are at least until 10.6.

[MartiNZ]

Given the curious change in the functionality of Stacks between WWDC and the release, I would suggest that there will be tweaks in the early point point upgrades - something along the lines of 10.4.1's (or was it 10.4.2's?) manage widgets addition, to make Stacks more useful. I don't think that we will get hierarchical dock menus back without 3rd-party apps/hacks, especially seeing as Stacks is one of the OS's major touted features.

I kind of gave up fighting Stacks and came to something of an understanding with the feature. There are clearly ways to use them to some benefit; it is only a shame that it takes some effort - folders of aliases, for example. It seems to me that the eye candy aspect is hoped to be sufficient to entice more switchers, while the functionality will be seen as nice for those that never knew about folders in the Dock over the last six years. A simple stacks on/off option would be nice, but that just doesn't seem to be Apple's style these days, what with Dashboard and Spotlight and such. Spaces is quite an odd feature in that respect.

As for the translucent menubar, well it is something that has improved since WWDC, but could also clearly do with an on/off switch. Either way it is quite a striking departure from any other iteration of the OS.

[Big Mac]

Good points, Martin

[Kevin]

The reason why 10.5 doesn't feel "Finished" is because it wasn't. We got the most stable version they could put out at that particular time. While I am using 10.5 at home, I will wait till the upgrades to install it at work.

I have a lot of templates in the dock also, and the new stack way of doing things totally messes up my workflow.

Apple NEEDS to make stacks an option to turn on or off in ANY folder. Not just dock ones.

[MartiNZ]

Interesting idea! Oh well, just downloading 10.5.1, maybe that will bring something ... bit small though.

[MacosNerd]

I think the second option sums it up the best
"Some basic options will come quickly, many will take a while"
Also some of those options that people may be clamoring for change may never. Clearly apple does it thinks is best and that sometimes is against public opinion.

My wish is that they get rid of the last vestigages of aqua. They made some good steps forward with the current GUI (some backwards) but they've also left some legacy UI elements hanging around. I'd rather see them fixed before I see any functionality changes to stacks or something.

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

The reason why 10.5 doesn't feel "Finished" is because it wasn't. We got the most stable version they could put out at that particular time. While I am using 10.5 at home, I will wait till the upgrades to install it at work.

I have a lot of templates in the dock also, and the new stack way of doing things totally messes up my workflow.

Apple NEEDS to make stacks an option to turn on or off in ANY folder. Not just dock ones.

Leopard feels pretty finished to me. YMMV of course. I think it has to do with how you use your computer, etc. This is the same with any OS update, or any major software update.

But I do agree that Stacks is pretty bad. That is the main, and really only, issue I have with Leopard. Of course, I'm using Leopard on my home machine, so I'm not using it in my productive workflow. When/if my IT department upgrades us to Leopard, I may find things that hinder my workflow.

[Hinson]

Great points, all.

I think the consensus view--that Apple won't take major steps on a shipped OS, no matter how obvious the flaws or the fixes--is disturbing, though I tend to agree. That's so sad. It's like they have a classic pride problem.

Here's hoping we're all wrong! Here's hoping that in a few months, Jobs will be holding a small, special press session to announce a free yet substantial update to Leopard that addresses many well-established user complaints.

I can dream, can't I!


-Jason

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by Hinson 

Great points, all.

I think the consensus view--that Apple won't take major steps on a shipped OS, no matter how obvious the flaws or the fixes--is disturbing, though I tend to agree. That's so sad. It's like they have a classic pride problem.

Here's hoping we're all wrong! Here's hoping that in a few months, Jobs will be holding a small, special press session to announce a free yet substantial update to Leopard that addresses many well-established user complaints.

I can dream, can't I!

-Jason

That's not unprecedented, really. Didn't they do that with 10.1? If my shoddy memory serves me well, I remember 10.1 being free (for a limited time) to those who purchased 10.0, since it was pretty much unanimously agreed that 10.0 was a beta test.

I wouldn't mind this happening again, but at this stage of the game I kind of doubt that.

[lpkmckenna]

I don't expect Apple to fix it.

Sometimes I wonder if Apple deliberately makes idiotic decisions to ensure their fans don't get too fanatical.

[Hinson]

Well, I don't know that it matters, but why not go write a short "please add a view-as-folder option to Stacks" request on Apple's Mac OS X feedback page:

Apple - Mac OS X - Feedback

Can't hurt.


-Jason

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

That's not unprecedented, really. Didn't they do that with 10.1? If my shoddy memory serves me well, I remember 10.1 being free (for a limited time) to those who purchased 10.0, since it was pretty much unanimously agreed that 10.0 was a beta test.

I wouldn't mind this happening again, but at this stage of the game I kind of doubt that.

Yeah because like 10.5, everyone knew 10.0 was basically a beta that "Had" to be put out or Apple would have gotten flack from the press.

While 10.5 wasn't as under polished as 10.0 was. It's the worst one Apple has put out SINCE 10.0

IMHO of course.

10.5 actually reminds me more of Rhapsody actually. A in-between stage.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Yeah because like 10.5, everyone knew 10.0 was basically a beta that "Had" to be put out or Apple would have gotten flack from the press.

While 10.5 wasn't as under polished as 10.0 was. It's the worst one Apple has put out SINCE 10.0

10.4 was far more cranky. There wasn't an (obvious) method to manage widgets, and the Spotlight front-end was really feature-poor.

I was pretty happy with the feature set of Leopard right outta the box (once I got past this damned bug).

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

10.4 was far more cranky. There wasn't an (obvious) method to manage widgets, and the Spotlight front-end was really feature-poor.

Hmm I had no problem with widgets. But I do remember there being a fix shortly after 10.4. And Spotlight worked fine for me the way I used it. (Never used the menu, a hit a command and a spotlight window would show up. Much like the old find file.. I still do this to this day)

I was pretty happy with the feature set of Leopard right outta the box (once I got past this damned bug).

I am not saying it's a horrible OS. It's not. And it does have improvements over 10.4.

More people seem to be having problems with 10.5 over 10.4 though. And I am not even talking about the APE problems. That wasn't Apple.

[UnixMac]

Not since ditching my last Windows 98 PC have I had so many problems with a computer!

I am in complete disbelief at the number of problems 10.5 has caused me on two laptops and two desktops.. so it's not like it's a fluke on just one unit.. This is absolutely shameful for Apple to put it out with out more QC and debugging first!

I hope.. no I pray they get back to the rock solid platform they were before!

[Hinson]

Hmmm....

Had to readdress this one.

I've installed the 10.5.2 update, and while I've heard of others having some troubles, so far I've had none. Plus MY DOCK FOLDERS ARE USEFUL AGAIN. [Humph] Sorry, but I really love what Apple did with the new folder display and List view options. Bravo for that well-provided solution to the problem.

I also love the TimeMachine menu (after using TimeMachine in 10.5 for a couple of days, I knew that a menu item was needed--glad to see Apple thought so too). Then, of course, you have the option of turning off menu translucency (another point in my original post above).

Anyway, there are just three basic fixes that came with 10.5.2--didn't have to wait for 10.6. From my experience (and just mine), I have to say "well done, Apple." You're mileage my very.


-Jay

[Big Mac]

Yup, very well done. Apple definitely exceeded my expectations this time around.

[Brass]

The stacks/folders issue is almost fixed, but not quite. I still cannot simply single-click on a folder in the dock to open it in the Finder. I now have to choose a menu item to do that. Still, it's a big improvement over the 10.5.1 implementation of Stacks.

[sogbrightlight]

Yea I really enjoy the new update. especially the folder view.

[Big Mac]

As I noted above.