[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Well, if you start a thread about an intensely personal issue a whole lot of people - including yourself - feel strongly about, and flesh it out by spouting complete bullshit, don't act surprised when people call you on it.

It's the charm of the Lounge. Or the internet, really.

[Laminar]

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Like I said, the assumption is that the guy is an irresponsible jerk, whose entire responsibility beyond the insemination is to go shopping and drive her to the obs' office.

Yeah, I LOVE this stereotype. And I have yet to meet anyone that fulfills it. I'm sure there are plenty of "sperm donors" out there, but I don't make a point of hanging out with them.

I wonder if that stereotype is as flawed as the "get pregnant to keep a guy" stereotype?

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

It occurs to me, I've never heard of a pregnant woman going on a killing spree.

Given the hormones, I"m sure it happens. The major media must keep it under wraps or something.

For decent human beings in real relationships, the guy's life changes as much as the woman's life changes, but in different ways. Sure, the hormone thing happens to most of us, and we can't feel the pain, etc. But we suddenly have to worry about a whole lot of things that didn't get on the radar the year before, and we have to work harder to lower the risk of starvation. And we have to make sure our wives have a nurturing environment (meaning: whatever they want).

So sure, there are plenty of sh*tbags out there who don't go to IKEA the week after the new catalog comes in, but you should be able to identify them by the fake bull testicles hanging from the hitch of the 4x4 Doolie.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by finboy 

Given the hormones, I"m sure it happens. The major media must keep it under wraps or something.

I want to dry hump MacNN so hard right now. This place is priceless.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Well, if you start a thread about an intensely personal issue a whole lot of people - including yourself - feel strongly about, and flesh it out by spouting complete bullshit, don't act surprised when people call you on it.

Where did I "spout complete bullshit"? I already pointed out that yes, the father has more responsibilities than just causing conception.

However, you cannot deny that, from a completely objective viewpoint, the woman does endure far more than the man during a pregnancy (even moreso during the actual labor and birthing process). Yes, guys have posted here about their own wives not experiencing much in the way of morning sickness, etc. This is not indicative of the entire pregnant population, or else there would be few complaints from women about the troubles that come with pregnancy.

You say that I make a big deal about something that isn't that big a deal - the weight and bulk - but that's because you'll never have to experience that. It's no fun to be walking around with a bunch of essentially dead weight in your abdomen, preventing you from sitting normally, going to the bathroom normally, sleeping normally, etc.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing how you can call that bullshit. Pregnancy is physically much harder on the man that it is on the woman. This is a fact. It's not an opinion. A woman carrying around an unborn baby that is completely dependent on her physiology for survival is going to have to deal with a lot more than the man, who is only there for moral support and to provide for her as the pregnancy progresses.

This would be like saying that the wife of a quadriplegic man has it worse off than the man himself. Of course he's going to have more troubles, since he's the one with a major physical change to deal with.

And, WRT the guy being an irresponsible jerk - I never assumed, said, or otherwise indicated that. Of course I know that most fathers are more than a sperm donor. My point, which I have made multiple times already, is that pregnancy is more taxing on the woman than it is on the man. Regardless of the efforts the father has to put out, it simply is not the same as actually carrying a child to term. Period.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

I want to dry hump MacNN so hard right now. This place is priceless.

Is that so you don't get us preggers?

[shifuimam]

Lord knows I'd love to have Dakar's spawn.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

My point, which I have made multiple times already, is that pregnancy is more taxing on the woman than it is on the man. Regardless of the efforts the father has to put out, it simply is not the same as actually carrying a child to term. Period.

Maybe if they were forced to read this thread daily throughout their mate's pregnancy?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

You have issues dude. Get some counseling before you screw up the little girls in your life. I can't believe there is an organization in existence that would let someone with your attitudes towards women raise girls- or even pass this misogyny on to boys.

I suppose it's people's right to pass on their hateful world views on to their own kids, but to disadvantaged kids that are likely to have self-esteem issues to begin with? That's sad.

EDIT- I should clarify why I feel so strongly about this. It may seem like an innocuous statement to RR and perhaps the rest of you, but I'm reading it as a negative stereotype that implies an underlying resentment towards women. You state that most career women are selfish as a matter of fact. I think most reasonable people would agree that this is not the case, but certainly you have no evidence for this. If you has said "most career women I have known well enough to form an opinion on are selfish" I would still think this was more a refection of your own prejudices than an honest assessment of the women, but you could be right- I don't know any of the career women you know. But you don't know most women. You've come into contact with a tiny portion of the working women in the world. Your statement is one of bias, not fact.

Girls have it difficult in this world and I think it's getting worse. Telling little girls that if they want a career they are selfish only adds to the ridiculous pressures they face in this world. I don't know if my 5 year old daughter will eventually want a career or will choose to stay home and raise her kids like her mom. But that will be her choice and I- and I hope society- will support her. If she had an authoritative male figure in her life sharing your views with her- belittling her and trying to limit her- I would be both sad and angry. The world is hard enough for little girls. Their dads and carers should not make it harder.

I have issues?!? You're the one who conveniently ignores the posts I have written above this one of yours I am quoting. I have no misogynistic views. There is not a hint of sexism in anything I wrote.

You are clearly reading into what I wrote whatever you want to believe. Your views are the hateful ones.

You should be the one defending your reading comprehension skills.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Depends on the "career" and the woman. My mom was a "career" commercial artist, and there wasn't a selfish bone in her body. My wife is a "career" nurse-you can't be a good nurse and actively be selfish. Every one of the "career" military people I know is at least "a lot" unselfish, and most are so altruistic it isn't even funny. About half of these military people are women...

Now if you're talking about the business world, that's another matter entirely. It seems like almost EVERYONE with a business degree is either a megalomaniac or a wannabe, with everything about THEM all the time. Their vision, their corporate plan, etc., etc. The thing is, most business majors never really understand that all they do is package and market what creative people produce, or manage what professionals like physicians, nurses and therapists do. Selfish self-deception is what I see in business. But so far, ONLY in business.

Your second paragraph is clearly what I am talking about. Being a "Career nurse" is agreeably one of the most altruistic careers out there. Same for the military. Note I did not say "all", but "most" in my original post. Also note: the business world accounts for most of the careers out there.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Sorry, it just came off as an unnecessary (if not sexist) qualifier to me.

Again, I hope I have been just as strongly stated when it comes to men who are career minded to sooth your heart. I love you. THERE! I finally said ti out loud.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Again, I hope I have been just as strongly stated when it comes to men who are career minded to sooth your heart. I love you. THERE! I finally said ti out loud.

Yeah, its fine, but obviously I'm not the only one who was rankled by your word selection.

[andi*pandi]

no, you're not.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

rankled

I'm learning all sorts of new words today.

[Railroader]

Just to make it perfectly clear:

Most career-minded individuals are very selfish.

[Railroader]

Bolded. Italicized. And underlined for clarity.

Should I have do it in ALL CAPS too?

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I'm learning all sorts of new words today.

Sorry about that.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Bolded. Italicized. And underlined for clarity.

Should I have do it in ALL CAPS too?

With this crowd, you should probably add a lolcats version.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Pregnancy is physically much harder on the man that it is on the woman. This is a fact. It's not an opinion.

Quoted for posterity.

And, WRT the guy being an irresponsible jerk - I never assumed, said, or otherwise indicated that. Of course I know that most fathers are more than a sperm donor. My point, which I have made multiple times already, is that pregnancy is more taxing on the woman than it is on the man. Regardless of the efforts the father has to put out, it simply is not the same as actually carrying a child to term. Period.

Based on your own first-hand experience, of course.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

With this crowd, you should probably add a lolcats version.

[ort888]

[Dakar V]

You have give shuf credit, she makes some great threads.

[Laminar]

Except that she always makes them about herself.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

… endure … troubles … the weight and bulk … no fun … dead weight [WTF shif?] … preventing

Geez, women must be an awesomely stupid folk, or WAY self-delusional, to actually WANT to get pregnant and have children.

I suppose if it weren't for all those ignorant folks missing out on contraception, nobody would endure the hardship unless they had to, eh?

It's also obvious that abortion MUST be made illegal, because nobody in their right mind would want to bear (literally) the consequences of successful sex.

It all makes sense now.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Pregnancy is physically much harder on the man that it is on the woman. This is a fact.

Okay, that was obviously not intentional, but funny nontheless.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Geez, women must be an awesomely stupid folk, or WAY self-delusional, to actually WANT to get pregnant and have children.

The cynic in me says a lot do it because they don't know what else to do with their lives.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Geez, women must be an awesomely stupid folk, or WAY self-delusional, to actually WANT to get pregnant and have children.

I suppose if it weren't for all those ignorant folks missing out on contraception, nobody would endure the hardship unless they had to, eh?

It's also obvious that abortion MUST be made illegal, because nobody in their right mind would want to bear (literally) the consequences of successful sex.

It all makes sense now.

You're being obtuse, and I'm betting it's deliberate. Yes, for women who truly want children, the sacrifices made during pregnancy have a big payoff. However, it's asinine to assume that women have no troubles during pregnancy simply because the child is wanted. It's not like a pregnant woman who isn't looking for an abortion magically doesn't have morning sickness, back problems, sleeping problems, cravings, sore breasts, and/or any of the other myriad symptoms that frequently present with normal pregnancy.

And, yes - a baby is dead weight. It's weight that is not supporting itself (the uterus has to support it), which I indeed classify as "dead weight".

Okay, that was obviously not intentional, but funny nontheless.

Yeah - that's weird. I fixed that immediately after it posted. Whatever.

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

The cynic in me says a lot do it because they don't know what else to do with their lives.

What's sad is how true that is. Before anyone jumps on me, it's not the case for every woman. It may not be the case for most women. But it's definitely the case for some women, who are scared to become too career-driven and feel that the only alternative is motherhood.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

You have issues dude. Get some counseling before you screw up the little girls in your life. I can't believe there is an organization in existence that would let someone with your attitudes towards women raise girls- or even pass this misogyny on to boys.

I suppose it's people's right to pass on their hateful world views on to their own kids, but to disadvantaged kids that are likely to have self-esteem issues to begin with? That's sad.

EDIT- I should clarify why I feel so strongly about this. It may seem like an innocuous statement to RR and perhaps the rest of you, but I'm reading it as a negative stereotype that implies an underlying resentment towards women. You state that most career women are selfish as a matter of fact. I think most reasonable people would agree that this is not the case, but certainly you have no evidence for this. If you has said "most career women I have known well enough to form an opinion on are selfish" I would still think this was more a refection of your own prejudices than an honest assessment of the women, but you could be right- I don't know any of the career women you know. But you don't know most women. You've come into contact with a tiny portion of the working women in the world. Your statement is one of bias, not fact.

Girls have it difficult in this world and I think it's getting worse. Telling little girls that if they want a career they are selfish only adds to the ridiculous pressures they face in this world. I don't know if my 5 year old daughter will eventually want a career or will choose to stay home and raise her kids like her mom. But that will be her choice and I- and I hope society- will support her. If she had an authoritative male figure in her life sharing your views with her- belittling her and trying to limit her- I would be both sad and angry. The world is hard enough for little girls. Their dads and carers should not make it harder.

Dude, you've been attending too many Lib Dem meetings by the sounds of it. Men and women are different. Even Greer admits that she'd rather have stayed home and been a housewife.

Girls have it difficult? Is that why currently there's a competition on where the chicks get the same prize money for 3/5 of the work the blokes do? Is that why the best PM we ever had was a chick? Is that why the best selling author we have is a chick? Get real dude.

[paul w]

re: dead baby weight:

actually pregnant women go through certain physiological changes to support the added weight of pregnancy - the spine actually shifts and changes shape. Does this mean it's as if the weight is not there? Of course not.

reading all of this, i'm happy i didn't have to go through the experience with someone so commited to focusing on the negatives and reminding me how miserable it was and how easy i had things. i soooo dodged a bullet there...

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

However, it's asinine to assume that women have no troubles during pregnancy simply because the child is wanted.

It's asinine to assume that people have no troubles during LIFE simply because they don't want to off themselves.

How hard is it to get into your head that pregnancy ITSELF is a rewarding experience for many women - not just because it culminates in birth?

Pregnancy didn't really start to become a drag for my wife until the last five weeks or so before birth. Mostly because she couldn't figure out the most relaxing way to lie down without eventually having to shift weight to reduce pressure somewhere.

But by then, the excitement of having a living, moving, er, dead weight training its muscles inside of her had already taken over.

Of course, you'll be quick to point out how my wife is so not representative of how pregnancies go.

Except from what I gather (being the non-representative, in-experienced male that I am), that *is* how most pregnancies go when you're not constantly told how awful and terrible pregnancies are, and what hardship must be endured.

Welcome to planet earth.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by paul w 

reading all of this, i'm happy i didn't have to go through the experience with someone so commited to focusing on the negatives and reminding me how miserable it was and how easy i had things. i soooo dodged a bullet there...

[Railroader]

The only thing my wife hated about being pregnant was that she needed much more sleep.

She actually enjoyed the pain of delivery (no meds). Said it was worth every contraction.

Things she loved:
Healthy "glow".
Perfect skin.
Eat and eat and eat
Only really showing for 4-5 months not the 9 months that shif thinks* women magically become 100% full term weight.
Attention.
Learning more and more about her body...
Really, I could go on and on.

* It is actually quite sad how shif is being disingenuous about pregnancy.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

* It is actually quite sad how shif is being disingenuous about pregnancy.

Why?

[andi*pandi]

bah.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Why?

Why it's sad?

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

I want to dry hump MacNN so hard right now. This place is priceless.

It IS priceless. Sarcasm escapes so many these days. Must be the public schools (trying again).

[harbinger75]

I'm alarmed that I missed the probability that an innocuous thread title such as the one gracing this thread would eventually bely the contents inside.

[abbaZaba]

Originally Posted by harbinger75 

I'm alarmed that I missed the probability that an innocuous thread title such as the one gracing this thread would eventually bely the contents inside.

zing

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by harbinger75 

I'm alarmed that I missed the probability that an innocuous thread title such as the one gracing this thread would eventually bely the contents inside.

Welcome to MacNN. Enjoy your stay.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by finboy 

I wonder if that stereotype is as flawed as the "get pregnant to keep a guy" stereotype?

That may be a stereotype, but it absolutely happens.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

a truly involved expectant father goes through almost everything the mother does. If he doesn't actually have his center of gravity change, he is most sympathetic when she experiences the relatively sudden back and knee discomfort that causes. And he does suffer from the hormonal shifts. Guaranteed. Not from experiencing the shift themselves, but from "being there for her" while she does. Sometimes the fallout can be pretty serious, too.

Expectations about "expecting" are enormously shaped by one's personal contacts. Studies have shown that women who are exposed to "horror show" stories from older women who are already mothers tend to have a worse time with pregnancies and deliveries than those whose female acquaintances minimized the difficulties and discomforts. Basically, what you "expect," based on what other people have told you, will establish what you experience. My personal experience as a "pregnancy observer" is consistent with this information. You may have some nausea in the second and third month, but most people find that this is both transient and easily managed. Swollen ankles happen to everyone, and in pregnant women it's more from failing to attend to the body's signals to sit down now and then. Food cravings? I've never talked to anyone who had anything more than "a taste for..." some out of the ordinary food.

qft

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Why?

It's either that or you are woefully ignorant.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

A true test of a man is one who can stand by you in childbirth, and not be a wuss. No battlefield trench could be as intense.

I wouldn't compare it like that, but our first child's birth was a bloody affair. I was asked to leave the room. When I came back in there was blood everywhere. Pretty brutal, luckily everyone was OK. Second one just popped out.

Shif, you probably don't like hearing this, but think about your decisions and the fact that you're only 25. TBH you sometimes sound like the teenager that knows more than anyone else.

[colourfastt]

I, for one, do NOT want to ever see or hear another kid. Do NOT take them out if you can't restrain them. YOU may think they're 'cute', WE do not!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by colourfastt 

I, for one, do NOT want to ever see or hear another kid. Do NOT take them out if you can't restrain them. YOU may think they're 'cute', WE do not!

Thank God you were born an adult.

Just think what the world might have had to bear, had you ever been a child!

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Dude, you've been attending too many Lib Dem meetings by the sounds of it. Men and women are different. Even Greer admits that she'd rather have stayed home and been a housewife.

Girls have it difficult? Is that why currently there's a competition on where the chicks get the same prize money for 3/5 of the work the blokes do? Is that why the best PM we ever had was a chick? Is that why the best selling author we have is a chick? Get real dude.

Never been to a lib dem meeting. Men and women are different- no doubt about it. I don't really give a flip about what Greer thinks. If a woman wants to stay home and be a housewife, more power to her. It's what my wife has done and obviously I support her 100%.

However, the reality of the world is that women generally get paid 20% less for the same work men do, their self-worth is under constant barrage by an over-sexualized society, they get raped and abused by their partners and you have fundamentalists of all stripes treating them basically as property.

I'm not sure what contest you are talking about- don't really do the reality TV thing. Your best PM may have been a woman, but she is the only woman out of 76. And I think you will find that Ms. Rowling did not exactly have an easy ride until she hit the big time.

Perhaps I am overly sensitive to this, but having a young daughter and watching how the world treats women makes me unhappy.

But I'd like to leave this here. It's not the PWL.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Shif, you probably don't like hearing this, but think about your decisions and the fact that you're only 25. TBH you sometimes sound like the teenager that knows more than anyone else.

Perhaps, but again - I'd rather give a chance at a good life to a kid who already exists, rather than creating yet another human being in an overpopulated world.

I have a long list of reasons for my decision. It's not something that I just decided on a whim.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Thank God you were born an adult.

Just think what the world might have had to bear, had you ever been a child!

I REALLY don't get this attitude - what, you're not allowed to be annoyed by something that you previously were involved in? So what if you used to be a kid? That doesn't mean that you're morally obligated to like kids. Yeah, my mom cleaned me up when I puked all over myself when I was a kid. That doesn't mean that I have any inclination to clean up someone else's puke - I'm not sure I could even stomach cleaning up my own boyfriend's puke, and I love him dearly.

This whole mentality of "you were a kid once; how dare you dislike children" makes it sound as though people are obligated to society to create children, simply to fill some debt due to the fact that they were once children themselves.

Originally Posted by Paco500 

However, the reality of the world is that women generally get paid 20% less for the same work men do, their self-worth is under constant barrage by an over-sexualized society, they get raped and abused by their partners and you have fundamentalists of all stripes treating them basically as property.

I don't know about the pay difference - but that may be because I'm in IT. It seems like being a female is an advantage in the field, since it's so male-dominated.

It is interesting, though - it doesn't seem as though anyone is particularly troubled or shocked by Shaddim's decision not to have children - I'm guessing part of that is because he's a man, so it's expected that he'll be career-focused throughout his life, and little loss is perceived by his decision not to have children. It seems as though it is much more controversial when a woman speaks out about choosing to remain childfree, because traditional role expectations still pervade society. Women are expected to eventually end their career and become a stay-at-home mom (or, at the very least, a working mother) - those who choose not to do so are cause for suspicion and distrust.

Something tells me that men don't find themselves facing the same scrutiny.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Something tells me that men don't find themselves facing the same scrutiny.

I don't remember men starting a thread about it. Or speaking as ignorantly as you have in this thread.

[LegendaryPinkOx]

As a way of putting myself through college I've gotten a part time job as a shoe salesman at JCPenney. No I don't own any children, nor would I want to. As a witness to what these parents have to go through just to put a shoe on a child's foot, and ensuing screaming fit when they can't get the shoe that has lights in it, ya know the one thats three times as expensive for no other reason than they blink.

They also like to run around and get you to chase them because "get over here!" really means "tag your it." Just a couple weeks ago we had to notify the police because a child got in an argument with his mother; she wouldn't buy a shirt for him, so he ran off when she wasn't looking. They found him outside the mall hiding behind a bush, he was there for over an hour because he thought mommy didn't love him.

Then you have the smelly kids. The ones who manage to get the most putrid substances imaginable on their clothing, man is it fun to ask them to take their shoes off and you realize that at one point the worn pair of black sketchers they took off had been white, and they also think its hilarious when they fart next to someone.

The stories are endless, it seems, and I've only worked there for 8 months. When I'm ready to deal with all of that, I'll consider having some of my own.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I don't remember men starting a thread about it. Or speaking as ignorantly as you have in this thread.

TBH, I'm not sure where I've been "ignorant". The symptoms I mentioned that come with pregnancy are not things I made up. Obviously, a woman who desires to be pregnant is not necessarily going to be terribly bothered by such things (morning sickness, hormones, etc), but it doesn't change the fact that such symptoms exist, and that some women (including myself) are disinterested in experiencing them (among the many reasons to avoid pregnancy).

Or perhaps you're referring to my mention that pregnancy is more taxing on the woman than it is on the man?

I'm not entirely sure why people here are taking such offense to that. Perhaps you should try being pregnant yourself before you start talking about how your responsibilities during your wife or girlfriend's pregnancy are equal to or worse (e.g. more stressful and demanding) than actually being pregnant. I fully acknowledge and recognize that men have to make sacrifices during pregnancy too, and that there are a lot of psychological changes that come about while their female significant other is preggers. However, they don't have to deal with the physical stuff (meaning they don't experience it directly), and personally, I say that the physical stuff is extra crap on top of everything else. Obviously, the male view will be different, because it's all you have (or can) experience.

My reasons for not having kids have absolutely nothing to do with ignorance. It's a decision I've thought long and hard about.

Look, people who want kids, have them, and love them are fantastic. But people who make a conscious choice not to have children are not ignorant. Their reasons for doing so are not ignorant.

And I stand by what I said - men generally are not ostracized when they make the choice not to have children. Women, however, are vilified as soon as they even make mention of the mere possibility that childfreedom is an option under consideration. The conservative Christian viewpoint (which I apply squarely to you, specifically, which I believe is fairly accurate given how you've represented yourself on these forums) generally says that women are physically designed for childbirth (fact) and are therefore obligated to have children (opinion). I would guess that this view has some influence on your judgment of me regarding this particular matter.