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Text as Object - BeOS vs OS X
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Chinasaur
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Sep 14, 2004, 06:41 PM
 
Not a troll... a question.

Why in BeOS are we able to highlight text, click on it and then drag it out of where it was? aka Treating selections as objects?

Why isn't that feature available in OS X? I miss being able to do that on a daily basis and I find myself trying to click-drag on selections all the time.

TIA.
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a holck
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Sep 14, 2004, 06:53 PM
 
You have to wait a sec after you press the mousebutton, before you drag.
     
Chinasaur  (op)
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Sep 14, 2004, 07:01 PM
 
It's official...I'm an idiot

Thanks.
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Chuckit
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Sep 14, 2004, 07:38 PM
 
This is one of the things in Mac OS X that really bugs me. Not only is dragging inconsistent with every other system out there (including the classic Mac OS), not only is dragging inconsistent between Cocoa and Carbon (in Cocoa apps you have to hold on text to drag, while the opposite is true in Carbon apps), but Cocoa's text-dragging behavior is completely inconsistent with all other dragging behavior, even its own.

No wonder so many people can't figure out how to drag text.
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Brass
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Sep 14, 2004, 09:17 PM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
This is one of the things in Mac OS X that really bugs me. Not only is dragging inconsistent with every other system out there (including the classic Mac OS), not only is dragging inconsistent between Cocoa and Carbon (in Cocoa apps you have to hold on text to drag, while the opposite is true in Carbon apps), but Cocoa's text-dragging behavior is completely inconsistent with all other dragging behavior, even its own.

No wonder so many people can't figure out how to drag text.
Yep, I agree... took me a while to figure out how to get it to work in an application I was developing, and it turns out I got it right the first time (ie, by doing nothing), but just needed to click and hold before dragging while testing it. NOT intuitive.
     
Millennium
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Sep 15, 2004, 10:27 AM
 
As I understand it, the delay was introduced because in most dragging systems it's far too easy to drag text to unwanted locations accidentally. Apple does need to get this right by making Carbon and Cocoa behave the same way, but I think they really are on to something here.
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Sep 15, 2004, 10:53 AM
 
If you're a developer, file a bug.
If you're a user, send feedback.
     
Rickster
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Sep 15, 2004, 05:55 PM
 
As I understand it, the delay was introduced because in most dragging systems it's far too easy to drag text to unwanted locations accidentally. Apple does need to get this right by making Carbon and Cocoa behave the same way, but I think they really are on to something here.
Indeed -- without the delay, it can also be difficult to select a new range of text without dragging the current selection.

The Carbon/Cocoa inconsistencies aren't entirely Apple's fault, though; in several popular Carbon apps, the developers have done most of the drag code themselves instead of using Apple's APIs. Also, even with Apple's APIs, more work has to be done by the application developers (whereas with Cocoa one gets text dragging "for free"), so they'd have to be the ones to change it to match Cocoa's behavior.
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Sep 15, 2004, 06:03 PM
 
Originally posted by Rickster:
[T]hey'd have to be the ones to change it to match Cocoa's behavior.
No. With MLTE you do get everything "for free" in Carbon and there is no lag before dragging text. This is intentional in Carbon. It is in fact Cocoa that needs to change its behavior to match that of Carbon. The lag prevents many users from being able to drag text and is highly annoying for the others.
     
Brass
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Sep 15, 2004, 06:50 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
It is in fact Cocoa that needs to change its behavior to match that of Carbon. The lag prevents many users from being able to drag text and is highly annoying for the others.
Actually, I find it to be a real dilema. There are disadvantages of both ways. I find the Cocoa method very irritating in that I have to remember to pause and wait before dragging.

However, I also find the othe method very irritating (and have done so since I first used it in AppleWorks several years ago) in that if I wish to change the selection, starting from withing the current selection, I cannot do so without first deselecting the text, otherwise it does a drag instead of a selection change.

I cannot think of any means of having neither of these problems, and I'm not sure which I prefer. Both of them drive me nuts at times. I think that now I understand how to use it, I prefer the Cocoa method (because I change selection more often that I drag selections), but for new users it can be hard to get used to (it sure confused me for a while).

Any ideas how to overcome both limitations?
     
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Sep 15, 2004, 07:47 PM
 
I did not really notice the inconsistency between Carbon and Cocoa drag-n-drop until I saw this thread. And I still don't care.

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Turnpike
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Sep 15, 2004, 07:54 PM
 
Well, having a preference would be a start.

The cocoa method is infinitely better. Most users, when they click and drag within text, are trying to highlight it. This has been around far longer than dragging to move. Since dragging to move is more of a power-user feature (more than highlighting text, which even my dad can do by instinct), it makes sense that it should not be the "default" click/drag behavior.

The only thing the carbon method has as an advantage is that many of us are used to it. However, if we are just going to go by age, the text highlighting has been around much longer.
( Last edited by Turnpike; Sep 15, 2004 at 08:02 PM. )
     
Chuckit
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Sep 15, 2004, 08:26 PM
 
Originally posted by Turnpike:
The cocoa method is infinitely better. Most users, when they click and drag within text, are trying to highlight it. This has been around far longer than dragging to move.
Yes, but unless you want to add the delay to everything else � such as images in Safari � the text-dragging should be changed for conformity.
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Brass
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Sep 15, 2004, 10:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
Yes, but unless you want to add the delay to everything else � such as images in Safari � the text-dragging should be changed for conformity.
I agree. Although the Cocoa method is good, in that it allows the old familiar reselction action to work nicely, it is very poor UI design to make the user click and wait without moving the mouse for any reason at all (Spring-loaded folders are very useful, but have the same problem - again, I cannot think of a better way of implementing it, so I don't complain too much because it's still a nice feature).
     
JKT
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Sep 16, 2004, 07:53 AM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
Yes, but unless you want to add the delay to everything else � such as images in Safari � the text-dragging should be changed for conformity.
Not really - if you are dragging an image, it is a given that you want to drag rather than highlight a portion of it whereas in the case of text, your aim can be one of two things - selecting it or dragging it. Personally, I greatly prefer the Cocoa click and drag to highlight; click and pause to drag implementation. It only becomes annoying when you use a Carbon app and you find yourself dragging text all over the place instead of highlighting it!
     
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Sep 16, 2004, 08:57 AM
 
Originally posted by JKT:
It only becomes annoying when you use a Carbon app and you find yourself dragging text all over the place instead of highlighting it!
Sorry, but this is a highly unlikely scenario.

select text -> reselect text -> reselect text

What would be the point of doing this? Nothing is achieved by simply selecting text. The more likely scenario is:

select text -> drag text -> do something else with the app

or maybe even

select text -> drag text -> deselect -> select text -> drag text

Since the most likely thing you are going to do after selecting text is dragging that text, it is very annoying that Cocoa forces the wait on you. I understand that this was useful on a platform where text is selected a lot and pasted elsewhere with the middle mouse button, but now it's running on Mac and on Mac Drag & Drop is the primary method for moving objects.
     
Millennium
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Sep 16, 2004, 10:06 AM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
Sorry, but this is a highly unlikely scenario.
No, no it's not. Not if you actually do any decent amount of writing, anyway.
select text -> reselect text -> reselect text

What would be the point of doing this? Nothing is achieved by simply selecting text. The more likely scenario is:

select text -> drag text -> do something else with the app

or maybe even

select text -> drag text -> deselect -> select text -> drag text
Here's one for you:

select -> Cmd-B -> select -> Cmd-I -> select -> drag

You'll note that I've mixed in keyboard shortcuts, but these should be fairly recognizable to most Mac users: bold one range of text, italicize another, and then drag yet a third. When you're trying to write quickly (and who doesn't, these days) it becomes very easy to get mixed up, particularly when your select ranges overlap. This is quite a common scenario.
Since the most likely thing you are going to do after selecting text is dragging that text, it is very annoying that Cocoa forces the wait on you.
Except that the most likely thing you're going to do after selecting text isn't dragging. Most of the most common operations, in fact, can be found in the Font menu.
I understand that this was useful on a platform where text is selected a lot and pasted elsewhere with the middle mouse button, but now it's running on Mac and on Mac Drag & Drop is the primary method for moving objects.
Actually, the primary method for moving objects is still copy/paste (Cmd-C/Cmd-V). Relatively few people use Drag & Drop, particularly as they become more comfortable with the system. It's a good idea for interface consistency, but it's not actually used as often as you might think.
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TETENAL
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Sep 16, 2004, 10:27 AM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
select -> Cmd-B -> select -> Cmd-I -> select -> drag
This scenario is unlikely for two reasons:

a) If you're using keyboard shortcuts to change text styles you are more likely to use the keyboard to change the selection. So this discussion doesn't apply.

b) If you are changing text styles you are most likely changing it for whole words. And to change the selection in whole word increments you are double-clicking the first word. Which means you can not accidently drag an old selection.

You will not find a way around it. Cocoa text dragging just sucks.
     
Millennium
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Sep 16, 2004, 11:31 AM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
This scenario is unlikely for two reasons:

a) If you're using keyboard shortcuts to change text styles you are more likely to use the keyboard to change the selection. So this discussion doesn't apply.
Actually, as it turns out, that's not the case. People use keyboard shortcuts because they are faster than using the mouse, but there are still areas where the mouse is faster, and selecting text is one of them. In the real world, most users "grow" into a style where they use the mouse to select text but the keyboard to perform actions. Among those who don't grow into this style, almost all of them use the mouse for both. To actually use the keyboard for everything on a Mac is quite rare unless the mouse is completely unusable (for example, with blind users), and if the mouse is unusable then you can't drag text anyway.
b) If you are changing text styles you are most likely changing it for whole words. And to change the selection in whole word increments you are double-clicking the first word. Which means you can not accidently drag an old selection.
Actually, the most common situation for changing text selections is on groups of words, not single words. By convention double-clicking selects one word and triple-clicking usually selects a whole line; some programs offer quad-clicking to select a whole paragraph. But it's relatively rare that any of these (particularly triple-clicking) perfectly fits what the user wants, except for very specific tasks such as section headers. Therefore, we're back to using click-drag to select text most of the time.
You will not find a way around it. Cocoa text dragging just sucks.
When you're using real-world data and not ivory-tower theory (or just your own anecdotal evidence), you find some startling contradictions. Cocoa text dragging is different, but it is better.
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TETENAL
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Sep 16, 2004, 11:42 AM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
Actually, the most common situation for changing text selections is on groups of words, not single words.
I didn't say "single words" I said "whole words". To change selection in whole word increments you double-click the first word before dragging the selection. Which means it's impossible to accidently drag a previous selection.
When you're using real-world data and not ivory-tower theory (or just your own anecdotal evidence), you find some startling contradictions. Cocoa text dragging is different, but it is better.
You're using real-world data? Care to share it?
     
nickm
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Sep 16, 2004, 12:27 PM
 
without the delay, it can also be difficult to select a new range of text without dragging the current selection.
Count me in the camp of "Carbon dragging rules, Cocoa dragging drools".

When dealing with selected text, I think it is fair to assume that the user has selected the text correctly and want to operate on it with an immediate drag rather than assume that it was selected incorrectly and he wants to select again. Experienced users tend to habitually deselect text that they don't intend to operate on, because otherwise random key presses will delete the selected text (This is a huge usability issue in GUIs but it is the standard these days). In the case where the user actually wants to make another selection, rather than drag, it is an easy matter to "click (thus deselecting) and then drag (thus selection)". The other problem with the click and hold method for ext is that there is no indication that you have held long enough. Carbon rules, Cocoa drools.

Similarly, Carbon and Cocoa differ with respect to dragging proxy icons (those icons in the title bars of windows that stand in as a proxy for the item in the window). In Carbon apps, you have to click and hold to drag the proxy icon, rather than the window by it's title bar. In Cocoa apps, you can drag immediately. Cocoa has it way wrong here. I drag windows by their title bar all the time and only very rarely do I use proxy icons (I actually use them quite frequently, but probably less than 1/20 times that I click in a title bar for a window is it to access the proxy icon. The upshot of this is that I find myself dragging a proxy icon when I just wanted to move a window all the time because I use a Cocoa web browser that supports proxy icons (Omniweb). Also, Carbon apps, like the Finder and Internet Explorer, highlight the icon when you've held down the mouse long enough. Carbon rules, Cocoa drools.

I actually filed a bug with Apple on this matter, #2860974. I was explicit that the bug was with Cocoa, which didn't enforce a delay when dragging proxy icons. When Panther came out, I was told that the issue was resolved. However, all they did was lower (but not eliminate) the time it takes to initiate a proxy drag in Carbon, rather than raise it (above zero) in Cocoa. Carbon drools, Cocoa drools (still).

Cocoa is great, but on this issue it just has it all wrong.
     
Chuckit
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Sep 16, 2004, 12:40 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
When you're using real-world data and not ivory-tower theory (or just your own anecdotal evidence), you find some startling contradictions. Cocoa text dragging is different, but it is better.
How does "real-world data" differ from "anecdotal evidence" when you're discussing the user-friendliness of an interface? Basically all you've got to go on is whether or not users feel like the interface is being friendly to them. And while I've never heard anybody complaining about the normal system of drag-and-drop (the one implemented by Carbon and still used in every other situation in Cocoa), I have heard of many people completely thwarted by Cocoa's seemingly random half-second wait for text. Personally, I can't stand a UI forcing me to wait for no reason. As an editor at a newspaper, I find myself selecting text all the time, and I and other editors do prefer the classic selection method, so this isn't just just ivory-tower theory.

Originally posted by nickm:
I actually filed a bug with Apple on this matter, #2860974. I was explicit that the bug was with Cocoa, which didn't enforce a delay when dragging proxy icons. When Panther came out, I was told that the issue was resolved. However, all they did was lower (but not eliminate) the time it takes to initiate a proxy drag in Carbon, rather than raise it (above zero) in Cocoa.
I just tested, and I can drag TextEdit windows around by their proxy icon as of 10.3.2. It appears to be approximately the same delay for text dragging.
( Last edited by Chuckit; Sep 16, 2004 at 12:48 PM. )
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DeathMan
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Sep 16, 2004, 12:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
How does "real-world data" differ from "anecdotal evidence" when you're discussing the user-friendliness of an interface?
It has to do with the size of the test group. Small Pool == Anecdotal, Large Pool == Real Wolrd Data. Get it?

I opine that I like the faster drag. It sort of defeats the purpose in a lot of ways. I like text dragging cause its so quick. Now if I have to wait before I can drag the text, I now have a "perceived" slowness. Its really still pretty fast, but I have to mentally pause my behaivor, which I also hate with the title bar icons (though I don't have a better idea for the icons). I think it would be great if there was a system level preference to set the speed of delay, default it to the way it is now, but make it changable for those of us who know how to move text, and want to do it quickly.
     
Millennium
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Sep 16, 2004, 02:07 PM
 
Originally posted by DeathMan:
It has to do with the size of the test group. Small Pool == Anecdotal, Large Pool == Real Wolrd Data. Get it?
Actually, it's a little more than that. It's not just what users say they like, but the way they work with the system. You can't please everyone, but if you cater to the way that most users actually use the system, you can make more people happy.

It has long been said that no single person ever uses more than 10% of the features in Word, and this may well be true. This is why a lot of research has gone into refining not only the most popular features, but the way those features work together.
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nickm
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Sep 16, 2004, 02:47 PM
 
I just tested, and I can drag TextEdit windows around by their proxy icon as of 10.3.2. It appears to be approximately the same delay for text dragging
So you can. And TeXShop too. So why doesn't Omniweb work?
     
Rickster
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Sep 16, 2004, 04:20 PM
 
With MLTE you do get everything "for free" in Carbon and there is no lag before dragging text.
True, but a number of high-profile Carbon apps still aren't using MLTE yet. Older Carbon APIs put more of the implementation burden on the app developer, and several apps are using their own implementation anyway. Hence, Apple themselves can't make all Carbon apps consistent.

So why doesn't Omniweb work?
Cocoa's built-in titlebar proxy icon mechanism is for local files only. To get a proxy icon representing an internet URL, we pretty much had to roll our own from scratch... so, we can't automatically inherit changes to the AppKit version. Matching the 10.3 behavior should happen in an OmniWeb bugfix release sooner or later.
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teszeract
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Sep 16, 2004, 06:38 PM
 
Originally posted by Chinasaur:
It's official...I'm an idiot

Thanks.

No, you're not. I thought the feature suddenly went awol in X, and it just niggled at me. Thanks a holck.
     
IamBob
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Sep 16, 2004, 11:20 PM
 
I use option/cmd(+shift)+left/right arrow more than I use the mouse when dealing with text.

It's kind of a pain in Safari (no, I don't want to switch tabs[/quit beeping at me!], select the row!) so I usually just compose in TextEdit. When I'm done babbling like an idiot, cmd+shift+up arrow -> cmd+c -> tab -> cmd+v and away I go.


I'm not sure which method I prefer since I rarely use either. I suppose if you're dealing with non-editable text there's really no reason to make the user wait. And if it's editable text, make the user wait or drag immediately if cmd(/whatever) is held down.

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Jasoco
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Sep 17, 2004, 03:49 PM
 
I like the delay. Without it, I accidentally move text where I don't want it. I used to do this in Windows all the time. Made me pissed. Text always getting moved where I didn't want it.

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nickm
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Sep 17, 2004, 05:23 PM
 
I like the delay. Without it, I accidentally move text where I don't want it.
Why are you dragging in selected text? To reselect?
     
Jasoco
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Sep 17, 2004, 05:35 PM
 
Originally posted by nickm:
Why are you dragging in selected text? To reselect?
Sometimes people select the wrong text. Maybe a few characters off. Especially if it's small text.

To me, the Delay is my assurance I won't accidentally start dragging it when I want to select.

But to be sure, I always click once to de-select, then start selecting again.

I like options. And I like the delay.
     
Brass
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Sep 18, 2004, 01:47 AM
 
Originally posted by nickm:
Why are you dragging in selected text? To reselect?
Some of the people here are assuming that everybody uses the computer the same way that do, and that it logically follows that everybody else should like the same behaviour they like.

This simply isn't the case.

It's already been shown here that different people prefer different behaviour, and part of the reason for this is that they select text most commonly for different purposes. Some select more often for moving text, some select more often for some other action. Hence for some, the delay is a real benefit, and for others it is a real nuisance.

It's fruitless argue that one way is better, and expect everyone to conform to your point of view. Some people do things differently, and therefore different behavours suits them differently.

As I said in an earlier post, I am kind of stuck on the fence with this issue. I don't like the delay, however, I select to do something other than dragging most of the time, so I frequently select text, and perform some operation to change that text (other than moving it), and then make another selection, often overlapping. So I find the immediate drag of some Carbon apps to be very frustrating.

As someone else said, also, I frequently make selection errors, particularly when working with small fonts. The old carbon method makes this very tedious to correct. Instead of requiring a second click/drag to get the selction right, I have to click to deselect, then do a third click and then drag.

However, I appreciate that many of you are usually more accurate with you initial selections than I am, and that you move text around a lot more than I do, or don't use cut/paste to do it as often as I do (moving text by several pages using drag/drop is, for me, horrible in many applications, as it either takes to long to scroll to the right place, or it scrolls to fast, and keeps going past the right place).
     
Jasoco
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Sep 18, 2004, 02:08 AM
 
Originally posted by Brass:
It's fruitless argue that one way is better, and expect everyone to conform to your point of view. Some people do things differently, and therefore different behavours suits them differently.
Sadly, it's the same for just about everything people argue about. This is the internet. It's where we argue.
     
thePurpleGiant
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Sep 18, 2004, 02:49 AM
 
Originally posted by Jasoco:
Sometimes people select the wrong text. Maybe a few characters off. Especially if it's small text.

To me, the Delay is my assurance I won't accidentally start dragging it when I want to select.

But to be sure, I always click once to de-select, then start selecting again.

I like options. And I like the delay.
I am exactly the same. I like the delay - in AppleWorks I am always accidentally dragging text around when I just want to re-select it.
     
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Sep 18, 2004, 09:46 AM
 
Originally posted by Jasoco:
Sometimes people select the wrong text. Maybe a few characters off. Especially if it's small text.
Then use the selection in whole words increments.

It's not fruitless to argue about that. The selection behavior should be consisten in all apps.
     
Jasoco
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Sep 18, 2004, 02:00 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
Then use the selection in whole words increments.
It seems you don't get it. And you never will, so just leave the subject be.
     
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Sep 18, 2004, 02:39 PM
 
Originally posted by Jasoco:
It seems you don't get it. And you never will, so just leave the subject be.
I was trying to be helpful. No need to become insulting.

You don't like taking advices; I take notice and make sure you won't get any more from me. Welcome on my ignore list.
     
Jasoco
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Sep 18, 2004, 06:10 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
I was trying to be helpful. No need to become insulting.

You don't like taking advices; I take notice and make sure you won't get any more from me. Welcome on my ignore list.
I wasn't insulting you. You simply won't understand the need for the delay. Words aren't always the only thing being selected, so word selection isn't always a viable solution. And why am I even talking? You are ignoring me anyway, so be that way. I don't even know you so it's no skin off my knee.

Bah. Humbug.
     
Chuckit
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Sep 18, 2004, 09:00 PM
 
Originally posted by thePurpleGiant:
I am exactly the same. I like the delay - in AppleWorks I am always accidentally dragging text around when I just want to re-select it.
If you'd just deselect first, it wouldn't be a problem. I learned to use the OS 9 selection system just fine all by myself, and I didn't have to go ask on some Web site to find out some rather arbitrary method of dragging � it worked just like dragging anything else. I'd say that's the better system. If you have difficulty deducing that you should deselect before reselecting the same text (or typing new text, or any other action), I don't think that's Apple's problem.
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Earth Mk. II
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Sep 18, 2004, 09:53 PM
 
Really, it's a trade off.

You can have immediate text dragging, but risk accidental dragging when trying to alter the selection range. Or, you can allow safe adjustment of the selection range, but sacrifice immediate dragging.

Change may be annoying for an established user base, but I think the new cocoa way would make more sense for a new user.

Carbon's method would be annoying if I wanted to select a subrange of the current selection. Why should I be forced to divert my eyes and attention to click in a safe area of the screen, return my focus to the same range that was previously selected, then reselect the subrange I want? It's far simpler to just adjust the selection in place - since my eye focus and attention is already there anyway.

Also of note, both these systems aren't without their UI clues. In cocoa, the mouse cursor turns from an I-bar to a pointer when the text is ready to drag. Carbon (based on simple text) turns the mouse to a pointer the instant it hovers over the selection.

IMHO, cocoa's system is a better trade off for most typical users.
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TETENAL
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Sep 19, 2004, 09:27 AM
 
Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
Carbon's method would be annoying if I wanted to select a subrange of the current selection. Why should I be forced to divert my eyes and attention to click in a safe area of the screen, return my focus to the same range that was previously selected, then reselect the subrange I want?
You don't have to divert your attention. You can click into the current selection to deselect it. The mental effort for a click before reselecting is not higher than the mental effort to wait before dragging. But dragging after selecting is more often than correcting an error of selecting
AIn cocoa, the mouse cursor turns from an I-bar to a pointer when the text is ready to drag.
Not in Safari.
IMHO, cocoa's system is a better trade off for most typical users.
Typical users can't discover how to drag text in Cocoa without help. That's not better.
     
Chuckit
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Sep 19, 2004, 02:59 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
But dragging after selecting is more often than correcting an error of selecting
And I occasionally click and hold before dragging to select, just to make sure I'm looking at right points, so if I didn't have the presence of mind to deselect, this method could still result in accidental dragging. (I really don't understand why holding for a short time after a click should result in a completely different action than just clicking.)
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nickm
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Sep 20, 2004, 01:06 PM
 
Change may be annoying for an established user base, but I think the new cocoa way would make more sense for a new user.
I don't think so. Waiting to drag text is inconsistent: you don't have to wait before dragging anything else, like icons or windows. If something is selectable, then when it is selected, it should be immediately draggable.

ps. Carbon Rules!
     
leperkuhn
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Sep 20, 2004, 01:13 PM
 
Originally posted by Brass:


Any ideas how to overcome both limitations?
yes, a system option that says:

"delay when dragging text: none, 1/2 second, blah blah"
     
Millennium
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Sep 20, 2004, 01:44 PM
 
Originally posted by nickm:
I don't think so. Waiting to drag text is inconsistent: you don't have to wait before dragging anything else, like icons or windows.
Indeed not, but you can't do anything with icone or windows except drag them (you can also select an icon, but you do it by clicking, not by dragging). The fact is, the drag action has two possible things it can do with text, and the only way to accurately differentiate the two is to introduce a time delay on one of them. Selecting is much more common than dragging (indeed, every drag is immediately preceded by a select), so it gets the priority. Ergo, the time delay on drags is perfectly logical.

This is not a theory to be negotiated or debated; it is a directly observable fact. Ivory-tower theory has fallen flat on its face time and time again when it comes to interface design. Hell; OSX itself breaks every rule in the book, and yet it's still an improvement on what came before. Why? Because they went with what does work, not with what should work.
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nickm
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Sep 20, 2004, 03:06 PM
 
The fact is, the drag action has two possible things it can do with text, and the only way to accurately differentiate the two is to introduce a time delay on one of them.
That's not true. The carbon behavior makes a distinction between the two with no time delays to be found. Dragging within a selection means drag the selection (du!). Dragging outside a selection means make a selection (double duh). But what if you want to drag text outside a selection? Well, you have to select it first. What if you want to select text within a selection? You have to deselect it first (just click anwhere, it's not that hard!).

This set of behaviors seems really straightforward to me and what you can do where is entirely reflected just by looking at the screen. The time delay is not nearly as discoverable, as evidenced by the question that kicked off this thread.

This is not a theory to be negotiated or debated; it is a directly observable fact
I beg to differ.
     
nickm
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Sep 20, 2004, 03:09 PM
 
OSX itself breaks every rule in the book, and yet it's still an improvement on what came before. Why? Because they went with what does work, not with what should work
I also don't think that the inconsistencies in OS X should be praised as a virtue; I find them really annoying. OS X is definitely more powerful than OS 9, but in many ways OS 9 was easier to use.
     
Chuckit
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Sep 20, 2004, 04:30 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
Indeed not, but you can't do anything with icone or windows except drag them (you can also select an icon, but you do it by clicking, not by dragging).
I can select icons on my desktop by dragging. I think maybe something is wrong with your computer.
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himself
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Sep 20, 2004, 06:00 PM
 
Originally posted by nickm:
That's not true. The carbon behavior makes a distinction between the two with no time delays to be found. Dragging within a selection means drag the selection (du!). Dragging outside a selection means make a selection (double duh). But what if you want to drag text outside a selection? Well, you have to select it first. What if you want to select text within a selection? You have to deselect it first (just click anwhere, it's not that hard!).

This set of behaviors seems really straightforward to me and what you can do where is entirely reflected just by looking at the screen. The time delay is not nearly as discoverable, as evidenced by the question that kicked off this thread.
But for any given user, dragging within a selection could mean either "I want to drag this selection" or "I want to select a subset of this selection." It happens. Which is why OS X now implements both method.

Just as for some users the delay for dragging text selections in cocoa can interrupt someone's work rhythm, having to stop to think to click first before you make another selection can interrupt some one else's rhythm. The fact that so many people considered this a problem (myself included) shows that it is an issue. It's just going to be an issue where some users are going to have to learn to deal with a system that doesn't suit them (hey, you can't win them all...). The fact is, either routine requires a fairly insignificant modification of behavior (either waiting a half second, or clicking first), and it's moot to debate which routine works best, since we all work different[ly].

Personally, I prefer the delay, though I have some issues with that method as well. Whichever system Apple decides on, I just hope that they implement it consistently, so that I don't have to guess.

Or maybe, the inconsistency is Apple's attempt to please everyone at once... so if you prefer one system, use only carbon apps, otherwise you should stick with cocoa...?
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CaptainHaddock
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Sep 20, 2004, 09:29 PM
 
"Sometimes people select the wrong text. Maybe a few characters off. Especially if it's small text. To me, the Delay is my assurance I won't accidentally start dragging it when I want to select. But to be sure, I always click once to de-select, then start selecting again.
I like options. And I like the delay."

As a part-time writer, I'm in full agreement. It did take me a few tries to figure out that the pause was necessary to drag text, but it was a lesson easily learned.

Possibly the thing I hated most about Windows was how it always selected big chunks of text and never let you get the exact selection you wanted. Editing HTML was nigh-impossible, your selection would always insist on including characters that you didn't want. I'd almost pick Macs over PCs for that reason alone.

As it is, there are a million other reasons I like Macs better anyway. And since I use Cocoa apps as much as possible, I don't even notice the inconsistencies.
     
 
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