Greetings!!

I recieved my OSX CD yesterday (after several apparent attempts by Apple to actually get it shipped). I was very excited about getting it.

I have a 450 G4 with 320 meg RAM and 2 internal 30 gig drives. I normally don't read the "Read Me" files and don't spend much time on the notices but I have worked with Mac and UNIX enough to know that this time I better pay attention. Glad I did. States right on the read me that you must install OSX on the FIRST drive if you have more than one connected. This brought my hopes down a notch or two since I stuck the second drive in so I could install OSX on it without messing up my main drive. I got around that by simply taking out my main drive and using the other one entirely for OSX.

I must admit the interface is very nice and very appealing. I found it to be fast as well. However, it was very frustrating when the dock was in the way and I could not make the screen for IE larger and could not move it or get behind it. Also, I REALLY despise the fact that the browser is Internet Explorer. I don't want anything Microsoft on my machine.

I went to root and did some command line playing around and I must admit it is very odd getting a command line prompt on my Mac..a lot like A/UX. But it was a lot faster than I thought it might be.

Just to attempt to do some things that I do everyday I decided to see how the networking was going to work. I move from 3 offices and each has a different network schema. This was a very poor situation. Just when Apple finally gets OT to the point where you don't have to reboot every time you want to change an IP or network configuration they take us right back to pre-OT reboots. This completely sucks. I used to love to show Windows and NT folks how I could simply change my settings and have new ones on the fly. How archaic Windows really was if it could not do that. bad thing is now you get a message that says you have to restart after making changes and then when you search and search for "Restart" there isn't one...so how do you restart without shutting down and then restarting?

That was another missing element...in the Mac Help I asked the question..."how do I restart?" and it had nothing. It said to try and use less words. So I used "Restart" and it said no such words.

I need more time to play with it and really get to know it. There are many things that I can see are going to be excellent but I can see there is still a lot of work to be done.

I could see from the first 20 minutes some issues that are going to be problems for lots of folks. Restart needs to be right next to Shutdown and networking must be able to be changed on the fly and Windows need to be a lot more intuitive if you can't select them or move them around.

Carl

[Marshall]

Originally posted by Allanon:
I could see from the first 20 minutes some issues that are going to be problems for lots of folks. Restart needs to be right next to Shutdown and networking must be able to be changed on the fly and Windows need to be a lot more intuitive if you can't select them or move them around.

Holding down Option changes the "Shut Down" item to "Restart". I guess the thinking behind this is that Mac OS X won't need to be restarted often.

I would assume that Apple would make it so that networking doesn't require a restart by the time the final version is out. There isn't a technical reason why it wouldn't work, to my knowledge. It's probably just that there are lots of dependencies on the networking and Apple didn't get them all sorted out to the point where everything would work right after changing something before they released the Public Beta.

What do you mean by "windows need to be a lot more intuitive if you can't select them or move them around"?

You can alter the preference in the dock to make it drop out of the way below the screen when you are not using it, you can have IE as big as you like then. Or if you want to keep the dock visible, make it smaller by dragging downwards on the vertical line that splits apps from docs. Then turn on magnify in the dock options. I love the magnify effect I have it on all the time.

:-)

thanks for the replies. I was simply pointing out the first impressions after getting it up and running. I knew there had to be some way to get the Dock to behave the way I wanted but did not spend the time to play with it. Yes, I need to take more time and will.

I am guessing that they did not have the time to make the networking work without a reboot because there are a lot of issues on the NIX side with respect to multi users, servers etc. and it is not a simple task. Judgeing from the replies to other posts I am not the only one that caught the similarities to Win95.

I do see there is a better browser recommended and I don't want to us IE for anything. And I don't know why Jobs keep shoving the damn thing down our throats since I don't know many Mac users that use IE.

Carl

[gaffa]

Not many people like IE, so download OmniWeb. There's a link on the Apple Mac OS X page.
As regards network change reboots. As far as I am aware, Apple should eventually implement the network stuff using Network/Kernel Extensions. Therefore no re-boot.

Cheers

Gaffa.

[JBracy]

1) I think that the network thing has to do with Apple choosing to use streams instead of sockets in OSX (I read it in another post, it might be the other way around I can't remember)

2) Most Mac users I know use IE over Netscape - at the moment it is just better.

[MacGorilla]

Just an observation here but I always used Netscape over IE. I've used Netscape for years and I guess I am used to it's weirdness. I love OmniWeb. It has bugs but its fast and stable.

I got my Beta yesterday as well and ran into some Freak of Nature things:
->I found installing a copy of OS 9 on my X partition before installing X greatly speeds up the loading of Classic and it's stability. I still have my regular OS 9 partition as well.
-> I have a Cable Modem and I have a router/hub that acts as DHCP server. I tried configuring my network through this and failed, tried again through ethernet and failed again but finally got it work by telling X I had a BootP server. Whatever that is.
->The Dock is nifty but it gets the way of resizing windows. I have shrunk it to make life easier but I think there should be an option to turn the thing off.
->The built in Mail.app sometimes has problems with POP mailboxes. I solved this by going into the Advanced Settings of the Mail Preferences and erasing the port number and restarting the app.
->I guess like everyone else I am used to restart button. I'll have to break this habit but it would be nice to at least have the option, instead of logging out and restarting.

------------------
http://www.macgorilla.com
"Saving the Universe from the scum of Windows"

the required restart when you change network settings is ridiculous, although unless apple did something freaky with the BSD network stack, it should be pretty easy to fix.

the expected workaround, using ifconfig and route from the terminal, seems to work sometimes but not others. dhclient doesn't exist -- it seems to have been replaced with ipconfig getifaddr <interface>, but i'm not sure.

i was able to manually configure ip over ethernet at home, and it worked beautifully -- until i tried to do it again on our company network with dhcp. it seemed to have no effect whatsoever. i had an ssh connection open in another terminal and it didn't even die.

[Marshall]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
->The Dock is nifty but it gets the way of resizing windows. I have shrunk it to make life easier but I think there should be an option to turn the thing off.
->I guess like everyone else I am used to restart button. I'll have to break this habit but it would be nice to at least have the option, instead of logging out and restarting.

Holding down Option will change "Shut Down" to "Restart".

Setting the Dock to auto-hide is probably the closest you're going to get to turning it off. Is there a reason you don't want it to auto-hide?

[rlmorel]

Hi All,
I think Apple is going to hit the Bullseye with this one!
I just got PB yesterday, and�I cannot believe the difference in my computing experience. I consider myself a power user, able to rescue nearly any sick mac and make it purr, been a user since 1986. I have a MPG4-500 and 640MB of RAM, I installed PB on it, and�it is fantastic.

Took me 35 minutes from clean disk to loading my first web page. I was a bit disoriented at first, but after a few hours of poking around, I could get right to what I wanted. By the end of the night, I had the OmniWeb Browser, Internet Explorer, Word, Excel, Mail, Photoshop 5.5 running simultaneously, and I launched every Quicktime movie that was in the demo! I started to skip frames at that point, so�I quit a movie, and I had seven of those movies, spread out all over my screen, running simultanously, with nary a skipped beat!!!!!! WOOOHOOO! The OS did not crash once, though I did restart once because my network services did not seem to be working. I had a clean disk, installed OS9 basic install, then installed OSX on the same partition. From within OSX, inserted the Photoshop disk, it launched Classic, (it said it had to change some resource) installed Photoshop, Office and the Omni Browser, and never even hiccuped! I did not have the thing crash even ONCE!

Took some getting used to the interface, but once you know�it is great! While some of the naysaying about some features (or lack thereof) is well founded, I think at least some of the negativity is from some people who just cannot envision there is a better way, or are unwilling to make the tradeoffs needed to move forward.

I, for one, would like to be able to drag a file from within pane view a la spring loaded folder fashion, backwards or forwards to where I want it and release it. I am a little queasy with having to open up more than one Finder to do copies. That seems too much like Windows.

I am going to use this as my primary OS from now on, even to the point of foregoing my trackball, Wacom Tablet, Firewire scanner, PC card reader, CD Burner, zip drive, game peripherals, and even my printer. I think they did a fabulous job, and this is only BETA sofware!

I know I already posted this, but this seemed like the more appropriate forum!

------------------

[MacGorilla]

The Dock gets in the way of scrolling and resizing windows and when I am playing any game take makes use of the bottom of the screen. I have gotten used to it now, sorta.

------------------
http://www.macgorilla.com
"Saving the Universe from the scum of Windows"

[MacGorilla]

The Dock gets in the way of scrolling and resizing windows and when I am playing any game take makes use of the bottom of the screen. I have gotten used to it now, sorta.

------------------
http://www.macgorilla.com
"Saving the Universe from the scum of Windows"

I'm wondering...are they gonna make the Dock like the Windows Task bar, where it is is treated as the bottom of the screen??? It seems kinda counter - intuitive to have it so you can hide or misplace something behind it......

[MacGorilla]

Your correct, the Dock seems to be a waste of screen real estate but please, please don't wish the Windows task bar on us! I am forced to use some flavor of Windows at college and that task bar squeezes the screen and gets in the way worse than the dock.

------------------
http://www.macgorilla.com
"Saving the Universe from the scum of Windows"

I agree that, by default, the dock is a huge waste of screen space. However, it can be resized and, if desired, can be made invisible until you move the mouse to the bottom of the screen. This eliminates the complaint about real estate. The way I have it configured, it takes up no room at all!

I think the Dock is a masterstroke by Apple. It combines the Apple Menu and Application Menu into one easy-to-use unit. You don't have to remember if an app is running anymore. Simply click on it and, if it is running, it will be maximized. If not, it will be run for you.

[birdman]

I haven't actually used OS X myself, but a friend of mine has (I had a terrible experience with a beta OS before, so I'm waiting for the final this time), and he showed me all the new stuff. On the whole I love it! There were just a few things...

1) He couldn't run any "Classic" applications. He tried Appleworks and several others, and they all crashed under OS X. Of course, I have full faith that this will be working by the final release (then again, I haven't heard anyone else here saying Classic apps didn't work...).

2) The dock is neat... I will certainly put it on auto-hide, since my iMac is only 800x600 and I need all the screen space I can get with Photoshop and Painter. However, the "magnifying" effect when you mouse over the icons in the dock was annoying; I'm sure I'll get used to it, but my initial reaction was sea-sickness! It's hard to focus your eyes on something that's always moving and changing shape.

3) Finally, a keyboard shortcut for emptying the trash! But oh wait -- it uses the forward-delete key, which doesn't exist on pre-Summer-2000 Macs! Is there a way to change what this shortcut is?

4) At least for the beta, you have to have OS 9 installed in order to install OS X. My room mate has OS 8.6, so I wonder if he will be able to upgrade to X without first purchasing 9. Wouldn't that just suck big time. OS 9 came pre-installed on my iMac, so that's what I've been using, and personally I can't blame him for wanting to stick with 8.6, which is way more stable than 9 (at least in my experience).

5) I work in my college's computer labs. If we ever switch to OS X........ oh, I just can't wait for everyone to be hunting around the interface looking for "Quit", which used to be under the File menu, or clicking on the Apple icon in the middle of the menu bar thinking that it will produce the Apple menu. Certainly, in the long run it will be better to have the Macs running X (mmm... no more hard crashes... ahhh), but I know initially all these whiny people in the labs will be like "Well why did they change it? I hate computers. I'm not going to shut up and let you help me, I'm just going to continue complaining..."

Other than those few things, I love OS X.

-birdman

[msuper69]

Awesome! That's how I describe actually using OS X. Of all the OS's I have used in the past 30 years, NOTHING comes close to the OS X experience. This piece of fine craftsmanship is Apple's masterpiece. I've installed the PB on a 500mhz Cube w/15" Studio Display, 256MB Ram, 40gb HD. I can't get the system to crash no matter how hard I try. This bodes well for the future. I'm hoping that Apple provides updates to the beta via Software Update because there are some features that would be nice to have before the code goes golden. But even in it's current state, it is a very usable OS. I've used a Mac only for the past 2 years (bought an original Bondi iMac in August of 1998) so I don't have the familiarity or attachment to the Classic UI as many longtime Mac users have. My advice to those who have problems with the Dock and other X ways of doing things is to give it a chance. Use it for a while before passing judgement. Try it-you'll like it! Practice what you preach ("Think Different"). Think about the alternatives (Windows ME, 2000, 98, etc., etc.) We have the BEST computing environment ever conceived and it's only going to get better. Give Apple your feedback. Don't complain about this that or the other-provide some constructive criticism. I have the Stickie app running all the time and everytime I find something in the beta that I feel needs to be addressed, I update my notes. Believe me, Apple will be getting plenty of feedback from me.

Keep the faith! Have fun!

[SpiffyGuyC]

Originally posted by birdman:
I haven't actually used OS X myself, but a friend of mine has (I had a terrible experience with a beta OS before, so I'm waiting for the final this time), and he showed me all the new stuff. On the whole I love it! There were just a few things...

1) He couldn't run any "Classic" applications. He tried Appleworks and several others, and they all crashed under OS X. Of course, I have full faith that this will be working by the final release (then again, I haven't heard anyone else here saying Classic apps didn't work...).

2) The dock is neat... I will certainly put it on auto-hide, since my iMac is only 800x600 and I need all the screen space I can get with Photoshop and Painter. However, the "magnifying" effect when you mouse over the icons in the dock was annoying; I'm sure I'll get used to it, but my initial reaction was sea-sickness! It's hard to focus your eyes on something that's always moving and changing shape.

3) Finally, a keyboard shortcut for emptying the trash! But oh wait -- it uses the forward-delete key, which doesn't exist on pre-Summer-2000 Macs! Is there a way to change what this shortcut is?

4) At least for the beta, you have to have OS 9 installed in order to install OS X. My room mate has OS 8.6, so I wonder if he will be able to upgrade to X without first purchasing 9. Wouldn't that just suck big time. OS 9 came pre-installed on my iMac, so that's what I've been using, and personally I can't blame him for wanting to stick with 8.6, which is way more stable than 9 (at least in my experience).

5) I work in my college's computer labs. If we ever switch to OS X........ oh, I just can't wait for everyone to be hunting around the interface looking for "Quit", which used to be under the File menu, or clicking on the Apple icon in the middle of the menu bar thinking that it will produce the Apple menu. Certainly, in the long run it will be better to have the Macs running X (mmm... no more hard crashes... ahhh), but I know initially all these whiny people in the labs will be like "Well why did they change it? I hate computers. I'm not going to shut up and let you help me, I'm just going to continue complaining..."

Other than those few things, I love OS X.

-birdman

Birdman,

1. No wonder your friend couldn't run Classic stuff - you guys should have read the manual! Classic requires OS9 to run. Also, you must have been using Appleworks 5, because version 6 has been carbonized and looks beautiful on X.

2. The magnification feature on the dock may be turned off or turned down.

3. The "empty trash" shortcut works fine on my PowerBook, which does not have a forward delete key. The backwards delete key does just fine.

4. You are incorrect. OS X does not require OS 9 - otherwise your friend would never have been able to run it in the first place. Think about it. Anyways, OS 9 is only required if you wish to use the Classic application to run older programs. So the answer to this is both yes and no, depending on how many programs have been caronized at the final release date. However, your option may be one of purchasing OS 9 or re-purchasing a multitude of frequently used programs.

5. Quit is still there, and its still in the farthest menu to the left. Anyways, with X's memory management the clueless can afford to leave a few blank apps running. But they can always learn the universal Apple+Q option, and the dock makes it only too easy to see what is running.

Hope all this helps!

-Spiff

I do see there is a better browser recommended and I don't want to us IE for anything. And I don't know why Jobs keep shoving the damn thing down our throats since I don't know many Mac users that use IE.

Carl[/B]

Check out the "Direct Testimony of Avadis Tevanian, Jr." in the Microsoft anti-trust case for the answer:
<http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms_index.htm>
<http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f2000/2010_a.pdf>

"...First, Apple agreed to bundle Internet Explorer on all Macintosh computers and Mac OS operating systems for five years. Apple also agreed to make the Internet Explorer the default browser on all Mac OS systems. Although Apple can bundle other browser programs with the Mac OS, it is prohibited from promoting any browser other than Internet Explorer. The agreement states that all other browsers must be stored inside a folder; this means that Apple cannot allow any browser that competes with Internet Explorer to appear on the desktop. The Technology Agreement also gives Microsoft the right of first refusal to develop the default browser for any new operating system Apple develops during the term of the agreement. ..."

[msuper69]

Regarding Internet Explorer:
Keep in mind that the Microsoft Macintosh Business Unit staff are Mac evangelists that just happen to work for the competition. It's a strange relationship, but Microsoft makes some of the best software for the Mac. Don't let your overall opinion of the company cloud your judgement. I'm no fan of Microsoft but I am very glad that they see the Mac platform as a viable business investment. That, my friends, speaks volumes. Basic economic principles apply here, if you don't like a product, don't buy it or use it. Let the market decide who succeeds and who fails. That's the way things work in this world and nobody can change that simple fact. IMHO, IE 5 is a very cool browser; your milage my differ. Regards to all!

regarding the netscape browser-

sucks

plain and simple.
i'm one of the handful of designers that has no platform bias for software bias. if it works, works reliably and is industry standard then it helps to pay my bills and buy my cars.

and frankly, for web development and design, netscape sucks.

for ease of use and browser stability, netscape sucks.

for support on the mac side and features on the mac side, netscape sucks.

My opinion mind you. So flames are welcome. :]

But rock on Apple!

-NeuWest

[exrae]

I think that the ability to hide the dock is a very nice feature, I can have no icons on my desktop, with a lot of screen space, then whenever I want to launch or switch apps I can simply focus on the bottom of the screen.
My opinion, not yours :-)

------------------

exrae "The pool on the roof must have a leak"

I just used a friend's beta for a few hours, and my impressions were mostly positive. I think that with some improvements I would use OSX as my primary OS.

1. The dock needs major improvements. IMHO, it doesn't compare to the apple menu. I can put far more apps on the apple menu than on the dock, and the apple menu lets you organize them. I found the pictures on the dock annoying, icons are easier for me to recognize, pictures have too much detail. Finally, it would be nice to be able to put the dock on the side of the screen. Vertical screen space is at more of a premium than horizontal screen space, since it gets taken up my application menus and the menu bar at the top of the screen. Make the dock location adjustable.

2. Too many special effects. I don't need all the smoke and mirrors, just give me something that works. The effects only eat up processing power, they do nothing to speed up the GUI. The transparency effect ranges from useless to distracting--when there are words underneath a menu this is annoying. I don't need menus to be transparent, solid menus have more presence. I can see that Apple's fixation with style is costing us here. Make the computer case any color, it doesn't affect me when I'm working. But when the OS is turned into a cutesy, candy-coated funhouse show, it slows the GUI down. The GUI isn't supposed to be the center of attention, its supposed to be in the background, taking up as little attention as possible while allowing the user to focus on work and organization.

3. Fuzzy screen. I got a headache using this for only a few hours. The OS is just too blurry. I like something that's more solid, this OS looks wishy-washy to me.

I haven't used it enough to decide if I like the GUI organization. My first impression is that I like the hierarchical file structure of OS9 better. OSX reminds me of windows, with files scattered everywhere and inflexible rules for moving and copying files. Those are just my first impressions, maybe I will like it more after using it longer.



[This message has been edited by Phaedrus (edited 09-22-2000).]

[madgreek]

Been using OS X for two days now and am starting to like it more and more. To do any serious web/email work I've been booting into OS 9, but today I launched both Netscape and Eudora in classic mode and I must say I'm VERY impressed! There's no speed hits or any other problems that I can find at the moment.

I mainly delved into using classic mode because I wanted to use Netscape instead of IE. Even though IE is Carbon I'm wizzing around the web FASTER with Netscape in Classic mode. Sorry NeuWest1, I'm not one to get into flame wars...I just like what I like and no one has to agree

I agree man. Macos X is freaking slow! Why would I ever want to use this except to just play around with the cute interface. Screen redraws are slow. Resizing windows is slow, the whole Finder is slow. I'm hoping they write the ATI drivers for it soon, to speed the darn thing up cause my G4 350 is slower than heck right now.

[birdman]

Originally posted by SpiffyGuyC:
Birdman,

1. No wonder your friend couldn't run Classic stuff - you guys should have read the manual! Classic requires OS9 to run. Also, you must have been using Appleworks 5, because version 6 has been carbonized and looks beautiful on X.

Ah, I should've clarified -- the friend and room mate are different people. My room mate has 8.6, my friend has 9. He just got the new iMac DVSE with 9 pre-installed. I'm not sure what version of Appleworks he's using. IIRC, the update to OS 8 required 7.6; simply 7.5 wouldn't work. Again, IF I recall correctly. That's why I was curious if X would update from 8.6 or not.

3. The "empty trash" shortcut works fine on my PowerBook, which does not have a forward delete key. The backwards delete key does just fine.

Ah, thanks for the info!

As for carbonization... I thought the whole idea with Cocoa and Carbon was that X would seemlessly run/emulate older apps. So if I'm playing a game that is a few years old and most likely won't get an update -- such as Civilization II from Macsoft -- I'll have to reboot into OS 9. Oh well; since most apps WILL be carbonized, it's probably a small price to pay to get all the glory of X. :-)

-birdman

With regard to the browser and why it is being shoved down our throats...I read about Avi Tev. and the deal they made yesterday and understand better why it was done that way. Some folks like IE and says it works great. I on the other hand have never got any version to work worth a hoot. In fact the Mac OSX IE can't even bring most of my pictures up off of any of my sites. I just want it to go away. I am now playing with Omniweb.

I have been working with Apple products since before there was a Macintosh or Microsoft. I have YET to see a good product come from Microsoft. There is NOT ONE original product from Microsoft that I can't find a better competing product. Even Microsofts own products don't recognise their own file formats etc. Can't be the work of genius if they can't even be compatible with themselves.

My personal computer does not have even ONE MS app on it and if I am lucky never will.

Originally posted by rlmorel:
I launched every Quicktime movie that was in the demo! I started to skip frames at that point, so�I quit a movie, and I had seven of those movies, spread out all over my screen, running simultanously, with nary a skipped beat!!!!!! WOOOHOOO!

Wooohooo is right -- on my B&W G3/350 running Mac OS 8.6 I can "only" run 6 QuickTime movies simultaneously! Add a seventh and they all start getting chunky...

The truth is, QT performance under Mac OS X is rather poor.

Bravo Phaedrus. I agree completely. There are some good things about OS X and the GUI is definitely not one of them. If Apple would give users the ability to limit the effect and to have more control over the interface then we'd all be happy. It does definitely feel more like Windoze than OS 9.

I'd like them to make the following things turn-off-able:

1. Genie effect
2. Alti-aliased text
3. Colors (kind of already done)
4. Pin striped - what the heck?
5. Transparent menus
6. Drop shadows and 3D shaded buttons

And...

7. Make icons smaller in application windows
8. Make the dock repositionable (vertical/horizontal). I hate having to go the menu at the top and move to the dock at the bottom. If it wasn't that they want to keep it Mac-like they should put the dock and menu together.
9. Make running apps more obvious
10. Allow for less photographic icons (maybe alternate icons that are more graphic?).
11. Improve the file management system (Finder). It seems very dated.

Apple doesn't seem to understand basic concepts of interface. 1. Interface is the connection between user and computer not the focus 2. Icons represent an idea and not a thing. They don't need to be photographic to represent idea. They should act as shorthand not a novel.

It seems like alot of the interface is there only because they can do it not because it works better.

Ah, interface by Disney...
Speak up or WYSIWYG.

Originally posted by Allanon:
Greetings!!


That was another missing element...in the Mac Help I asked the question..."how do I restart?" and it had nothing. It said to try and use less words. So I used "Restart" and it said no such words.

I need more time to play with it and really get to know it. There are many things that I can see are going to be excellent but I can see there is still a lot of work to be done.

I could see from the first 20 minutes some issues that are going to be problems for lots of folks. Restart needs to be right next to Shutdown and networking must be able to be changed on the fly and Windows need to be a lot more intuitive if you can't select them or move them around.

Carl

The restart is a little hidden. You have to hold down <option> and the "shutdown" will change to "restart". This is the case with when you use the menu or the power button. Many many things in OS X are "dynamic" and will change depending on modifiers like using the <option> key.

I like the Mac OS X Beta version better than DP4. Here are some things I have issues with:

1. The CD does not eject properly often.

2. Cannot arrange icons on desktop via contect menu.

3. I use to hi ite trash and use context menu to empty it. Now I have to go all the way up to the special menu to empty trash.

4. In finder column view you cannot change the width of the columns. So, file names get clipped. Annoying.

5. Classic will not shutdown. I have to goto process monitor and kill trueblueenvironment. It has crashed OS 10 Beta. This is the most serious issue.

6. It would be nice if the doc had the front most app hight lighted....much more intuitive than looking at the menu.

7. Dragging stuff into finder list view does not always put the file into the folder I dragged the thing on. ( or is it me )

8. I like to set my terminal windows to black back ground. ( user can set window colors for finder also ) When I drag 2 windows that are black over each other the bottom edge of the front most window disapears. This is because the edges of aque windows are created by the shadow of the window. But if the window behind the front window is black you get no edge. Maybe you need to add in some depth like an artist algorithm. Like add a little blue to the black for windows that are behind the front window? He..he..

8. There is no context menu for the trash icon on the dock. When I empty the trash I alsways get a dialog. There is no do not ask option for the dialog.

9. The lower right corner of the windows looks unintuitive. ( to expand the windows )

10. Changing network settings appears to trigger restart.

11. Java debugging was missing from DP4.

12. Prgrams take to long to launch. OS 9 has a "snappier" feel to it that mac users expect.

13. The calulator is for children. Please offer a more useful calculator. It is impressive that is Java. Jsut more features please....

Otherwise, I really like OS X beta. It has much improved. It is usable. I've switched to it from OS 9. I can't stand cooperative threads and the lack of memory protection. Plus, OS X has more modern versions of Java. Hmmm...perl is the latest verson also...yippie. I find carbon apps impressive.