[typoon]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

This is a great vicroty by the House. Time for the senate to get into line.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Hoping to keep drivers licenses out of the hands of terrorists, the House voted Thursday to make states verify that applicants are U.S. citizens or legal immigrants.

At least it looks like one branch of government is doing something right.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by typoon:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

This is a great vicroty by the House. Time for the senate to get into line.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Hoping to keep drivers licenses out of the hands of terrorists, the House voted Thursday to make states verify that applicants are U.S. citizens or legal immigrants.

At least it looks like one branch of government is doing something right.

Since when is the issue of driver's licenses for millions of working residents already living and working here suddenly an issue about keeping DL's "out of the hands of terrorists"???

I thought Bush considered them "guest workers"? So they're allowed (encouraged, even) to come live and work here (and pay taxes), but they must walk, bike or ride the bus?

The very fact that the world "terrorist" even appears here opens a relatively harmless debate over practical regulation of the underground economy into the murky and paralyzing world of ideological buffoonery.

If we were really talking about keeping DLs out of the hands of terrorists, we'd be denying them to anyone to contributes money, support or encouragement to The Army of God or the KKK and leave the dishwashers, janitors, valet attendants and agricultural workers out of it.

[olePigeon]

That's good. When I got my first driver's license when I was in Colorado, they had trouble verifying some guy's SSN cuz he had TWO of them. He also couldn't verify if he was a citizen (work visa? don't know.) They STILL gave him his driver's license, then told him "when you renew your license you need to make sure you bring..." then told him all the documents he should've had in the first place.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
That's good. When I got my first driver's license when I was in Colorado, they had trouble verifying some guy's SSN cuz he had TWO of them. He also couldn't verify if he was a citizen (work visa? don't know.) They STILL gave him his driver's license, then told him "when you renew your license you need to make sure you bring..." then told him all the documents he should've had in the first place.

And you didn't pounce on that bloody terrorist when you had the chance???

Your plane ticket to Gitmo is being printed. Please arrive at the departure gate at 10am tomorrow promptly. No baggage will be necessary.

[itai195]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Since when is the issue of driver's licenses for millions of working residents already living and working here suddenly an issue about keeping DL's "out of the hands of terrorists"???

Since drivers licenses are so often used for identification, some people have raised security concerns. But you're right, from what Bush has said in the past he should oppose this measure. Arnie should also, as this was one of the big issues during the recall.

Besides, isn't this a violation of states rights? Are there any real Republicans anymore?

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by itai195:
Since drivers licenses are so often used for identification, some people have raised security concerns. But you're right, from what Bush has said in the past he should oppose this measure. Arnie should also, as this was one of the big issues during the recall.

Besides, isn't this a major violation of states rights?

I guess I'm just irrational enough to think that whether or not we begin some limited effort at documenting the tens of millions of undocumented workers in this country has almost nothing at all to do with the Almighty War on Terrorism.

God knows the only thing keeping Osama Bin Laden from really bringing us to our knees is access to some Driver's Licenses.

I guess once you've found a political trick that works you stick with it, eh?

We'd better privatize Social Security quick before the terrorists bankrupt the system forcing our precious veterans to bag groceries and greet shoppers at Walmart.

[itai195]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I guess I'm just irrational enough to think that whether or not we begin some limited effort at documenting the tens of millions of undocumented workers in this country has almost nothing at all to do with the Almighty War on Terrorism.

God knows the only thing keeping Osama Bin Laden from really bringing us to our knees is access to some Driver's Licenses.

Forgot about this thread, so sorry for the late response/bump. I do side somewhat with people who think it's a security concern. The 9/11 terrorists had 63 driver's licenses. Those can be used to obtain all sorts of services, such as bank accounts (the 9/11 terrorists owned over 35 accounts). We have to make sure we're maintaining some level of security before we hand out these things willy nilly.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by itai195:
Forgot about this thread, so sorry for the late response/bump. I do side somewhat with people who think it's a security concern. The 9/11 terrorists had 63 driver's licenses. Those can be used to obtain all sorts of services, such as bank accounts (the 9/11 terrorists owned over 35 accounts). We have to make sure we're maintaining some level of security before we hand out these things willy nilly.

I'm fairly certain that extending documentation to undocumented workers wouldn't fall under "willy nilly". Or did the bill advocate leaving boxes of legal DL's in the DMV dumpsters each night?

The impetus behind granting DLs to illegals is 2 fold:
(1) overwhelming majority of them are driving anyway so they should comply with our laws and be tested for the basic competency that other drivers are subject to

(2) it would begin to actually document the undocumented. To get a legal DL you'd have to go to the DMV like everybody else and show some paperwork and be identified. Their Visas could be inspected (and found fraudulent) for example. Anyone who isn't here legally could then be subject to additional documentation. In other words, we'd have a clearer idea of who is actually in the country already.

If we're serious about the link between illegal immigration and terrorism, then we should be looking at the INS, not the DMV.

And, of course, a terrorist with a fraudulent Visa probably isn't going to show up to get documented anyway. Denying or allowing DLs isn't really a solution/complication of the problem. Its an unrelated issue, IMO.

[itai195]

My problem isn't with illegal aliens getting DLs, I'm not talking about illegal immigration in general. I'm talking about the interplay between illegal immigration and the ability of terrorists to procure fake identities. The problem is that the easier we make it to get a DL, the easier it is for a terrorist to exploit that process. For example, in some states and banks the only identification one needs to get a DL or bank account is a Matricula Consular card -- which is trivially easy to get, you just need a birth certificate and it's not even verified as authentic -- from the Mexican government. The FBI has reported finding people of all sorts of nationalities holding such cards. Mexican banks don't accept the cards as valid forms of identification, but several US banks do.

Now, that doesn't mean I support the bill. I made it clear in an earlier post that I don't.

[mitchell_pgh]

Solution: Every state issues a drivers license to legal immigrants and citizens. Illegal immigrants can obtain a "US Drivers License" issued by the federal government which requires fingerprinting, background check, etc (very similar to a passport).

If you don't think the ID thing has anything to do with national security, you are kidding yourself.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Illegal immigrants can obtain a "US Drivers License" issued by the federal government which requires fingerprinting, background check, etc (very similar to a passport).

Hopefully, that drivers license for illegal immigrants could be made valid for 1 trip only: to the nearest border.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Hopefully, that drivers license for illegal immigrants could be made valid for 1 trip only: to the nearest border.

I agree. I am all for people coming to the US, awesome, come over! But if you come here ILLEGALLY, why should you have any rights?

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Hopefully, that drivers license for illegal immigrants could be made valid for 1 trip only: to the nearest border.

Provided they do some work along the way since our economy can't function as we know it without them. At least, not at the rate to which we've become accostomed.

But that's the other illegal immigrant thread....

Let's at least admit that conflating the documentation (DL's or some other form) issue with WoT is disingenuous and prevents people from really addressing the fundamental problems facing us on both important fronts.

DLs for illegals != terrorist bonanza

Our security efforts should be concentrating on the INS and our "intelligence" apparatus communicating and getting their heads out of their arses. It has almost nothing to do with the DMV or some other effort at shedding some regulatory light on the shadow economy of illegal labor.