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London Bombings (Page 6)
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Big Mac
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Jul 7, 2005, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac
Any country with an active military has terrorism. Britain, France, Isreal, all have terrorism. America seems to think it's the special child, and we're somehow so undeserving and unique in our plight. Everyone has terrorism. Americans overreact to everything though. If a country can't deal with having terrorism, they shouldn't get involved in world politics, plain and simple. If you have something to say on the world stage, someone is going to get mad over it. Personally, I think we should continue being involved in world politics, but we need to get used to terrorism. Everyone else has.
I don't see terrorism at all as fait accompli. Terrorism, the act of attacking non-combatants in order to instill fear in a populace, is illegitimate, indefensible and condemnable; it should be treated as such. Resigning one's self to the inevitability of terrorism is an act of acquiescence, and if the free world acquiesces, the repercussions will be far more severe.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Atomic Rooster
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Jul 7, 2005, 06:54 PM
 
So...British Intelligence was so accurate about what was going on in Iraq...but in their own country...???

Where was all the chatter?

Nothing has changed in four years except freedom to go on with your business.
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
...and the people who will try to blame this on Bush as usual?

I admire the Londoners - they are going about their business as usual...

TERRORISTS LOSE.



Actually, that behavior is explanable in many ways:

1) Brits are used to terrorism from IRA, so they have experienced and they know that once a terrorist action has passed, it is not likely there will be another one right away
2) There is ample time for denial following such an event; usually, you need to count from 24 to 48 hours of denial in most individuals before anything happens in their psyche; a proof of that is that there were tourists taking pictures as usual
3) It is not likely that everyone was aware there had been a terrorist attack then, so people who look calm may actually be suspicious, but not necessarily aware of what is going on.

Of course, not showing distress after a terrorist act is certainly disconcerting to terrorists, but I would not count on that as it called for an organized reaction, which no one had time to process and and plan.
     
Big Mac
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Jul 7, 2005, 06:57 PM
 
Would not Pastor Niemoller write something along these lines?
When the terrorists attacked Israel,
I said nothing because I was not a Jew;
When they attacked the United States,
I said nothing because I was not an American;
When they attacked Spain,
I said nothing because I was not a Spaniard;
When they attacked Britain,
I said nothing because I was not British;
Then they attacked my country,
And there was no one left to protest.

Do you really wish to accept those rationalizations and support those policies that ignore and even reward terrorism?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 06:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
First we (in the sense of humanity in general, as I'm not British) should find them. Then we should eradicate them.
Like it or not, there will always be terrorists, as long as we react to them the same usual way, which turns into a vicious circle.

Obviously, such acts cannot be left unanswered and I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that these monsters need to face justice, judgement and punishment.

But a blind goose chase will not lead to much.
     
Dogma
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:09 PM
 
Thoughts and hearts to all affected by the London madness. Not a lot anyone can say to comfort those that lost loved ones in such a pointless and savage act.

That's all for now. Political rantings and ravings can come later. It's less than 24 hours guys, let the wit stay at home, and let the blame hang for a day.
Hark, I hear a robin sig'ing in the trees!
Nae, there is no sog to be sug,
or am I wrog? Why can't I sig?
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by tie
I hope we are bombing Syria tomorrow. We just can't let these guys get away with randomly attacking us.

We need to respond in kind.
Let's kill them ALL!

Let's make a BIG hole in Middle East!

For every individuals killed who speaks English, let's kill 10 000 Muslims!

Let's make sure to kill the men, the wives and the kids so there is never someone to revenge!

And let's kill their neighbours too! After all, they are close, so they must have known and if they knew, and did sweet f*****g, then they are accomplices!

Let's kill the people who make these guys rich too! Those who bought oil from them made sure to sustain their economy so they need to be punished for their criminal association!

And let's kill whatever country that raises an eyebrow to our God given right for revenge!

     
goMac
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac
I don't see terrorism at all as fait accompli. Terrorism, the act of attacking non-combatants in order to instill fear in a populace, is illegitimate, indefensible and condemnable; it should be treated as such. Resigning one's self to the inevitability of terrorism is an act of acquiescence, and if the free world acquiesces, the repercussions will be far more severe.
It is illegitimate, but declaring a war on all of terrorism is a joke. You can't destroy terrorism, fighting it will probably just strengthen it. For every radical move that the US makes, terrorism will be the result thrown back at us. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Terrorism is that reaction. The US needs to understand if it wants to try to force big changes on other groups, they will try and force big changes on us. And instead of just dealing with the terrorists, we're trying to spread changes through the middle east, which is just going to get us in deeper water.
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SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
You don't THINK we have the power, do you? How do YOU know?

"News flash?"



We could make a tarmac out of Iran in about three hours. Besides, we could use the space over there.
See my reply to tie.

Really. You need the space for what exactly?

Your shoes?
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepingDeth
Somebody shoot me.
Please dial: 1 888 AL-Qaida
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster
So...British Intelligence was so accurate about what was going on in Iraq...but in their own country...???

Where was all the chatter?

Nothing has changed in four years except freedom to go on with your business.
They were able to warn the Israelis about it.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Sherwin
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster
So...British Intelligence was so accurate about what was going on in Iraq...but in their own country...???
http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=85346
     
goMac
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by SimpleLife
Really. You need the space for what exactly?

Your shoes?
I think SOMEONE missed the point of the 1st Spiderman...
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Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:24 PM
 
dbl pst.

srry
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:25 PM
 
trpl pst.

dmn!
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by ThinkInsane
Finally, a post worth quoting.

Could you people please keep it civil. What ever the weight this incident adds to your on going political feud, please keep in mind that innocent people are dead, many more are wounded, and plenty are mourning the loss of loved ones. There;s plenty of time for finger pointing and I told you so's. Now is not the time.

When people are afraid, and feel powerless, they need to vent.

In that process, they try to get control the best way they can: puting down others. In the case of these threads, there lots of people who are hurt, and afraid. So what they do is try to get a grip by using others. Think of oit as being stuck in a crazy crowd in panic. You think you will find salvation by climbing on your neighbours' shoulders.

Then everyone wants to do the same, so they all try to climb on one another, for fear of being stuck under, because they want to understand, they want to make it clear for themselves, and want their fear to be heard.

But what is it worth to do that while everyone else is doing the same?
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sherwin
Let me explain something to you about freedom and democracy in the west. We make our own choice. If we want to drink beer we do. If you don't want to drink beer, you don't have to. But you have no rights whatsoever to stop us from drinking it by denying us planning permission for the facilities to do so.

That's how freedom works. You should experiment with it sometime.
Are you really choosing the politician you want? Or are you stuck with the left overs?

You think you are free, but if that is inside a cage, you might wonder how much freedom you really have..
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
And a just a short suggestion(I'm hoping you don't share Sherwins views): If you see a Muslim or an Arab, say hello or smile and nod. You can't imagine how much that is worth at the moment.
Amazing the power of a smile; it raises doubts in the mind of people who think they are surrounded by hate...
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by christ
Do you live in the UK, Sherwin?

We _do not_ make our own choice. We elect people to make choices for us. If we want to drink beer, and the governemnt says that we can't, then guess what? - we can't. And it is not just your pet hate that is against drink - there are many non-Muslim groups that are pressuring to reduce alcohol sales, particularly to (among others) islamophobe louts.

If 'you' is the local, democratically elected council / government, then yes, they absolutely can do what you suggest they can't.

It's called democracy. It sucks, but its better than the police state that you advocate, where you lock people up because you don't like them, you beat them up in public (regardless of guilt) because of your petty prejudices, you aspire to (but aren't bright enough to reach) islamopobia, and generally do anything you like to anyone that you don't.

And everyone else here - Sherwin does not represent a majority in the UK.
Christ you're good!

     
von Wrangell
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by SimpleLife
Amazing the power of a smile; it raises doubts in the mind of people who think they are surrounded by hate...
Exactly. And that has unfortunately become a reality for many of us. I'm lucky in the way that I don't look "Muslim" or "Arab". But for my friends life in the West is slowly becoming a different kind of hell. Thanks to both sides in this war unfortunately.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
analogika
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac
Would not Pastor Niemoller write something along these lines?
When the terrorists attacked Israel,
I said nothing because I was not a Jew;
When they attacked the United States,
I said nothing because I was not an American;
When they attacked Spain,
I said nothing because I was not a Spaniard;
When they attacked Britain,
I said nothing because I was not British;
Then they attacked my country,
And there was no one left to protest.

Do you really wish to accept those rationalizations and support those policies that ignore and even reward terrorism?
Knowing that that was posted in a thread where somebody from a country that invaded a sovereign nation on a lie advocated the nuking of another sovereign nation, and where another openly advocated deporting all members of a certain religious persuasion, would most certainly make the good Pastor spin in his grave.

It is a sad testament to human nature that the true lesson of Niemöller's text should be so lost on the very people quoting it.

Maybe you really DO have to lose a world war in order to learn a little bit of humility.
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepingDeth
     
Cody Dawg
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:42 PM
 
von Wrangell
Reading comprehension much?


Say, WHAT?

"Reading comprehension much?"

WHAT is that?

     
porieux
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:45 PM
 
...
( Last edited by porieux; Oct 2, 2006 at 07:42 AM. )
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg


Say, WHAT?

"Reading comprehension much?"

WHAT is that?

point <-------------------------------------------------------------> you

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by eklipse
So...the War on Terror is going well then.....
We must stay the course.

Where ever it leads it has to be good.

Look at lemmings! They go the the sea where all life began!
     
analogika
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg


Say, WHAT?

"Reading comprehension much?"

WHAT is that?

At least she's laughing.

positive marks for appropriate emoticon.

negative marks for failure to recognize figure of speech and colloquialism.

Though proper form would indeed have been:

"Reading comprehension, much?" <-- note the comma.

I give iWrite a 4, maybe 4.5 for effort.
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
Haven't read any of the preceding posts but I'm looking forward to seeing the reaction of some of our British and Canadian posters.
Well, maybe you should have.
( Last edited by SimpleLife; Jul 7, 2005 at 07:59 PM. )
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika
At least she's laughing.

positive marks for appropriate emoticon.

negative marks for failure to recognize figure of speech and colloquialism.

Though proper form would indeed have been:

"Reading comprehension, much?" <-- note the comma.

I give iWrite a 4, maybe 4.5 for effort.
Damn, I always forget the comma!

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac
Would not Pastor Niemoller write something along these lines?
When the terrorists attacked Israel,
I said nothing because I was not a Jew;
When they attacked the United States,
I said nothing because I was not an American;
When they attacked Spain,
I said nothing because I was not a Spaniard;
When they attacked Britain,
I said nothing because I was not British;
Then they attacked my country,
And there was no one left to protest.

Do you really wish to accept those rationalizations and support those policies that ignore and even reward terrorism?
You forgot:

"When the Muslim totalitarian regimes sold me oil on the back of their countrymen
I just closed my eyes and thought to myself it was none of my business as long as I could drive my car"
     
Cody Dawg
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:57 PM
 
No, that's NOT correct either.

"Reading comprehension, much" is just as wrong as "reading comprehension much."



Take some English lessons, will ya?
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dogma
Thoughts and hearts to all affected by the London madness. Not a lot anyone can say to comfort those that lost loved ones in such a pointless and savage act.

That's all for now. Political rantings and ravings can come later. It's less than 24 hours guys, let the wit stay at home, and let the blame hang for a day.
To each his own: some are ready now, others will never be.
     
analogika
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Jul 7, 2005, 07:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
No, that's NOT correct either.

"Reading comprehension, much" is just as wrong as "reading comprehension much."



Take some English lessons, will ya?
You mean to tell me that you don't know what a "figure of speech" or a "colloquialism" are?

Or did you just not read my post?

In which case:

Reading comprehension, much?
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 7, 2005, 08:01 PM
 
lol

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
analogika
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Jul 7, 2005, 08:02 PM
 
BTW, iWrite, in case you missed the 70s, I do believe the sentence fragment

"Reading comprehension, much?"

is actually understood (outside of Florida) as

"[Are you into] reading comprehension, much?"

or, by inference, its negative,

"[You aren't into] reading comprehension, much?"

Just FYI.

-ch.
     
Cody Dawg
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Jul 7, 2005, 08:14 PM
 
No. I'm not into "fragments."

     
Cody Dawg
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Jul 7, 2005, 08:19 PM
 
BUT, I will say this much: I admire a lot of you who speak more than one language fluently.

Have to give you guys that much.



     
analogika
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Jul 7, 2005, 08:24 PM
 
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 7, 2005, 08:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika
God...

Bless the simple for they do not know...

Anyone has a smiley with a head banging on a brick wall and blood splasing everywhere?
     
AKcrab
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Jul 7, 2005, 08:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by PookJP
I'm right here, and I'd like to ask you if this is the success in the war on terror Bush keeps talking about. Because, call me nuts, but I don't see annual major attacks since 9/11 as huge strides forward in global terrorism.
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Okay. You're nuts. There. You happy? I think that NOT having "major attacks since 9/11" a pretty good step in the right direction. Frankly, if you don't think that then yes, I think you're "nuts."

So Cody... No major attacks since 9/11?
Bali 2002, Madrid 2004, and now London 2005.
(And keep in mind that 2003 is chock FULL of terrorist action in Iraq..)
     
Sherwin
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Jul 7, 2005, 09:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika
BTW, iWrite, in case you missed the 70s, I do believe the sentence fragment
And there's me thinking it was a Buffy thing.
     
iLikebeer
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Jul 7, 2005, 09:56 PM
 
First, my sympathy and condolences go out to any of you Londoners in the area. The way the people of UK are going on with life is admirable and will hopefully serve as an example to others.
Originally Posted by Big Mac
I don't see terrorism at all as fait accompli. Terrorism, the act of attacking non-combatants in order to instill fear in a populace, is illegitimate, indefensible and condemnable; it should be treated as such. Resigning one's self to the inevitability of terrorism is an act of acquiescence, and if the free world acquiesces, the repercussions will be far more severe.
I think he meant more along the lines of persevering through the terrorism as a way for individuals to fight it. My biggest problem with Bush is that instead of leading by example, he instilled fear in many of our citizens. Enough fear to take away constitutional rights that should make Americans proud of our country. Real patriotism, imho, would be more along the lines of give us your worst, we can take it, but we can dish it out too. Our people are not afraid and will come after you with more determination each time you try to attack us. Accepting some risk to our own lives is preferable to giving up the rights that our ancestors fought and gave their blood for. It seems too many people would rather have the illusion of safety at the cost of our once hard earned liberties.

The British have some practice in this area, so hopefully they can again show the world how to react to an awful tragedy bravely.
     
undotwa
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Jul 7, 2005, 09:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika
BTW, iWrite, in case you missed the 70s, I do believe the sentence fragment

"Reading comprehension, much?"

is actually understood (outside of Florida) as

"[Are you into] reading comprehension, much?"

or, by inference, its negative,

"[You aren't into] reading comprehension, much?"

Just FYI.

-ch.
Most of us do not understand it, so please refrain from using such expressions. It sounds so wrong that it is painful to my ear.
In vino veritas.
     
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Jul 7, 2005, 10:38 PM
 
Greg from Maxim Mag has the best coverage.

I am back at my desk.. i am drinking Cobra extra smooth premium doubled filtered lager. It’s from India. I was going to go to the gym, but now i’m not. life’s too short and i am drunk. **** the gym. the thing about terrorism is, it’s another reason not to go to the gym. I might not even shower - screw those bastards.

With the exception of the bombs and the carnage, everything’s is fine here. Bombs go off around the corner and the Brits do what they do best - they go to the pub and get drunk and make the best of it. Even better: cricket is still going on (it’s a game with tall men in white pants. they play for days). My managing editor, Eoin, a Millwall football supporter with the name of his favorite team tattooed on the inside of his lip, says, “we fought hitler! it’ll take a bit more than some shits with carrier-bag bombs on a tube to put us off. It was a bit of a piss-poor effort. Shall we have another pint then?” We had another pint and had “a laugh.” And “a wee.” He has big, caring arms.

Brits are used to this terrorist crap, with the IRA, and they pride themselves on carrying on as if nothing happened. Every one here is scared, but no one shows any fear. that’s a British thing. they are tough little bastards. everyone feels bad about what happened. but they don’t let that interfere with their resolve. they figure the enemy should be really scared, not them - which is always the way to think, I think. I love these people.

they aren’t like the ****ing Spanish.

All the pubs are packed, and everyone is getting pis-sed. we left the office around noon. i am now alone and feeling woozy. most of my staff has left. they canceled quiz night, and most of the gigs too. everyone has to walk home because there’s no tube service. I’m thinking of ordering some Indian food. Maybe Chicken Tikka Massala. Or Tandori Chicken. Or maybe Lamb Korma. I could probably get a mixed grill. Something that has a little of everything. Perhaps some keema nan thrown in? Why not! Screw those bastards.

I have to pee now. no one here is in the office so i bet i could do it in the trash bin.
     
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Jul 7, 2005, 10:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac
Uh huh. What about World Trade Center '93 and the Cole? And internationally, what about Khobar Towers and the Kenyan and Tanzanian embassies? How quickly many forget. The leftist apologists and the other terror sympathizers will tell you that these acts done in the name of Islam are the result of alleged imperialist oppression. There were radical Muslims before 9/11. There were radical Muslims before the reconstitution of Israel. The Crusades were a direct consequence of Islamic incursions into Europe. Islam was born a radical religion.
I did not say there were no terrorist attacks prior to 9/11. I said "there wasn't much in the way major attacks prior to 9/11 either". Put another way, I have noticed no significant increase or decrease in terrorist attacks when comparing the periods prior to and following 9/11. Seems to me that there have been almost as many major terrorist attacks in the world in the 4 years since 9/11 as there were in the 4 years prior to 9/11. Certainly, 9/11 resulted in more deaths than all eight years combined, but I'm just talking frequency of major attacks; 9/11 is in a category of scale all it's own.

BTW, the Cole was a military target, not civilian, and as such wouldn't meet the criteria of "terrorism". Cowardly, yes, but not terrorism.
     
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Jul 7, 2005, 11:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
And you know what else?

What the STUPID terrorists don't realize is that things like this just unite all Americans and the British together in commonality and it makes us want to kick even MORE ass - yes, that's right. Anger will motivate us to do much more, to take more action,

Cody, you wait. The British will handle this much differently than the Americans would if the same type of incident happened in a US city (trying not to compare exactly w/ 9/11 as the casualties were much higher and incident altogether more dramatic).

It's not about kicking ass in blind retaliation. :sheesh:

... you know you're really beginning to sound like a sith from the dark side of the force.
( Last edited by vinster; Jul 8, 2005 at 12:44 AM. )
     
altocumulus
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Jul 7, 2005, 11:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac
So the quote telling people to impose islamic law on government wasn't from the Koran, but some crazy guy. Your point? Read the text you just quoted.
he may be a crazy guy to you, but how do you think an afghani would view him? apparently with a fair bit of reverence.

the point was to point out the US's flawed policy.
Do unto others what you would have them do unto you.
     
mojo2
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Jul 8, 2005, 12:05 AM
 
Ahmed Younis, National Director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council just told Bill O'Reilly that Pres. Bush has set the RIGHT tone and established the CORRECT way of dealing with the U.S. Muslim population in a way that doesn't increase tensions with them or create greater animosities towards innocent Muslims.

FWIW
     
mojo2
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Jul 8, 2005, 12:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Well, attacking the terrorists obviously hasn't helped so perhaps it's time to go back to the same methods that were used before 9/11. Such a shame that politicians bring this upon their people.
Even if you are against the Iraq invasion you MUST be in favor of a stable M.E. as well as a peaceful Great Britain, Spain, France, Germany, Italy et al, without terrorism, right?

If that's so, then why won't you say the things that indicate your stand against terrorism and the peoples & groups responsible for these deadly attacks?
     
mojo2
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Jul 8, 2005, 12:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
Wholehearted , Cody.

Not a whole lot is yet known about who did this (unless my data is old, which it might be), but one of the few truly universal things about terrorists is that they want people to be afraid. That's why they're called terrorists, after all. Fear is a natural reaction, and it's not even a bad reaction; not feeling fear is stupid, not brave. However, you can't let that fear paralyze you, or the terrorists do win. I'm glad to see that the immediate reaction of the British to this was much better than our own immediate reaction on 9/11.

Of course, let's put some temporal distance between us and this event -even a couple of days- and we'll see how long that lasts. I sincerely hope that the British refuse to be paralyzed, refuse to bow down, and refuse to give even an inch. The US could have done much worse in its reaction to 9/11, but it also could have done much better; we gave far too much ground to them and their ideals through knee-jerks like the treasonous "PATRIOT" Act. I fear that the British may do the same -they've been heading down similar roads recently, with things like the proposed national ID system- but I hope against hope that this will snap them out of it.
3,700 died on 9/11. Three commercial jetliners and two of the tallest buildings in the world, a center for worldwide commerce were destroyed and the headquaters for US Military was horribly attacked.

Sadly, 37 people were killed and 700 were injured in London's attack, today aboard a few trains and buses.

With all due respect, I'd dare say the US would have responded to a London sized attack differently that they did the greatest terrorist attack the world has ever seen.

And, even though the Patriot Act DOES seriously erode our civil liberties, it has been instrumental in preventing widescale vigilante aattacks on innocent Muslims here, which has prevented a truly dangerous atmosphere from developing here in the US.
     
 
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