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Abandoning Netscape -- What to use for email? (Page 2)
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ibook_steve
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May 13, 2008, 11:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gankdawg View Post
I've tried with every succession of OS X and it has never worked for me.
What are these other files that are being transmitted along with your photos?

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CharlesS
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May 13, 2008, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gankdawg View Post
I would probably move to mail full-time, save for one thing: I still can't send photos to Windows users without Mail attaching extra files. I've tried 'Windows friendly attachments' and everything else I can think of. Why can't I simply email 5 photos to friends and family and they receive 10 attachments?
The files must have resource forks - Mail encodes files with AppleDouble when this is the case, in order to preserve the resource forks, which would cause what you're seeing. It might help a bit to go to Edit -> Attachments -> Always Send Windows-Friendly Attachments.

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peeb
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May 13, 2008, 12:26 PM
 
Oh how resource forks suck.
     
Gankdawg
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May 13, 2008, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
It might help a bit to go to Edit -> Attachments -> Always Send Windows-Friendly Attachments.
I have already tried that. Doesn't work.
     
naphtali
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May 13, 2008, 12:48 PM
 
@Wataru - I don't get that problem with my non-Gmail IMAP accounts either. Mail does auto-save drafts at intervals, and yes it seems to choke a little when connections time out. But it eventually always cleans up after itself so if I wait a while there's just one draft left

@Gankdawg - Worked for me from day one too! I didn't make the extra effort to go set them as Windows friendly attachments either. What programs were those images edited with? What extra files are you getting?

@Besson - Might it help to copy your old emails (from within Finder) to another location, and then delete the originals from Mail? I just poked around and it seems that you can easily browse the mail folder containers from Finder. That way, your regular mailbox won't get bogged down and with Spotlight you would probably still be able to find the old stuff easily.

Notes doesn't seem remarkably slow for me on any of my IMAP accounts

I share you dislike for the RSS feature, though for different reasons. I find the interface rather restrictive and more of a clutter, so I just use NetNewsWire.


I guess it helps that I'm pretty aggressive about keeping my mailbox as sparse as possible so that it's easier to maintain and access across various devices. Might otherwise be facing a lot of the issues you have.


And I think we might have scared off the OP!
     
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May 13, 2008, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by naphtali View Post
And I think we might have scared off the OP!
Nah, the OP got her answer and now its a pissing contest between the people who say that mail is a good email client and those who say its deficient.

I'm going to say this, it works for me, and it works for the majority of people. I don't need to get into the techo-babble and the specifics because it suits my needs and the majority of mac owners. That being said if it doesn't suit your needs, find something else.
     
besson3c
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May 13, 2008, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by naphtali View Post
@Besson - Might it help to copy your old emails (from within Finder) to another location, and then delete the originals from Mail? I just poked around and it seems that you can easily browse the mail folder containers from Finder. That way, your regular mailbox won't get bogged down and with Spotlight you would probably still be able to find the old stuff easily.
Can't do that, these are shared mailboxes used within our group, so I can't delete them after downloading them to my computer. Moreover, it is silly that I should even have to entertain doing this, this is exactly what folder subscriptions are for, and AFAIK every other mail client supports them.
     
Gankdawg
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May 13, 2008, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by naphtali View Post
@Gankdawg - Worked for me from day one too! I didn't make the extra effort to go set them as Windows friendly attachments either. What programs were those images edited with? What extra files are you getting?
iPhoto and no editing other than the occasional red eye reduction. I can't remember what extra files I'm getting, I think they are .txt files though. Maybe I'll try it again tonight and see what happens.
     
webraider
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May 13, 2008, 05:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post

Doesn't offer a visual indication that it's checking/has checked when you hit "Get mail."
Doesn't support IMAP IDLE so you don't have to keep whacking the Get mail button.
Doesn't offer a horizontal 3 pane view; so much for making use of all these widescreens...
Doesn't mark sent mail as read when the sent folder is on IMAP.
Doesn't delete drafts after sending when the drafts folder is on IMAP.
Doesn't offer an easy way to manage or set priorities for the autocomplete list.
And on, and on...
Dude..I don't know which version of mail you're using.. but my version does all of these except for the 3 pane view horizontally.. but I don't know too many email programs that do that. I personally could care less about that feature. As for the visual indicators.. it uses the same indicator that Safari uses. I also has a status bar that appears at the bottom so what the heck?
     
mduell
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May 13, 2008, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by zro View Post
mduell, are these unread draft and sent messages not messages generated by you?
No, they are messages I sent.
     
Terrin
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May 13, 2008, 08:05 PM
 
I have used probably every OSX Mail client. Overall, I like Apple's the best. First, it is well integrated with Apple's other applications, like the Address Book and Safari. Second, I find it faster then other applications like Thunderbird. Third, since Thunderbird was let go from Mozilla, it's future is may be in question. Fourth, although Apple's Mail is feature rich, all the features are not in your face. The interface is indeed simple.

If I was to use another application other then Mail, it probably would be Thunderbird. However, that is only because I like to support Open Source software. In truth though, I like Entourage slightly better.

Gmail is nice (I use it, but have it downloaded to Apple's Mail), but not if you like to organize your mail on your computer and don't have a great internet connection. Moreover, I don't like the way it organizes mail by groups.

Originally Posted by Plant7575 View Post
We have been using Netscape as our primary browser for a very long time (back at least to OS 7). Now that Netscape is no longer being updated, we have simply switched to using Safari for our browser. However, we have also been using Netscape as our email manager -- again for many years. I have discovered that OSX has a mail facility, but I don't know how good it is. What are the other alternatives to OSX Mail? What do most people use? What do you recommend?

Keep in mind that my wife is marginally computer savvy and likes a simple interface for email. She is comfortable with the Netscape mail interface, but does not like the look of Yahoo mail (which I know is not an email manager, but it is the only other email interface that she has seen -- our kids have yahoo email. accounts).

Thanks,
     
Terrin
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May 13, 2008, 08:12 PM
 
Let me add that Apple's Mail works better then the alternatives when it comes to things like displaying attachments. For instance, PDFs are actually displayed in the message. It also works great with Quicktime files. For instance, I use Vonage and I get my voice mail emailed to me. I can play these messages from right in Mail. With other email programs these messages get opened in another program.

Originally Posted by naphtali View Post
Another vote for Apple Mail

I've been using it since 10.0 since I didn't like how Entourage stored its messages (I know it's more stable now, but I'm really happy with Mail) and back then having the number of emails shown in the dock icon was pretty cool

I find Mail very likable - it's fast, stable and does everything I need it to. More importantly, it stores emails and attachments in open formats so you can easily back your stuff up or browse and retrieve items from Finder.


I've never had problems with
- Sent mail being marked as unread (why would it?)
- Draft messages remaining drafts after being sent
I don't know the specifics, but I've never had this problem on any platform/email account I've used, so perhaps these could be server-side configuration issues?


As for the rest
- Doesn't offer a visual indication that it's checking/has checked when you hit "Get mail."
Since day 1, there has been an additional activity window (Cmd+0) that you can call up to see what Mail is doing. Yes, I agree that it's not right in your face, but it's not hidden in a jungle of menus. Menubar: Window > Activity


- Doesn't support IMAP IDLE so you don't have to keep whacking the Get mail button.
I don't really know how this works - is it like push email? I don't need to check my email every second of the day, so I'm amply happy with automated checks every 10mins. I think the OP might be as satisfied too


- Doesn't offer a horizontal 3 pane view; so much for making use of all these widescreens...
I like the current interface. I find that it keeps things focused. I do know of people who are fans/used to the Outlook 3-pane look, and for that there's the plug-in angelmb mentioned
     
besson3c
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May 13, 2008, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Terrin View Post
I have used probably every OSX Mail client. Overall, I like Apple's the best. First, it is well integrated with Apple's other applications, like the Address Book and Safari. Second, I find it faster then other applications like Thunderbird. Third, since Thunderbird was let go from Mozilla, it's future is may be in question. Fourth, although Apple's Mail is feature rich, all the features are not in your face. The interface is indeed simple.

If I was to use another application other then Mail, it probably would be Thunderbird. However, that is only because I like to support Open Source software. In truth though, I like Entourage slightly better.

Gmail is nice (I use it, but have it downloaded to Apple's Mail), but not if you like to organize your mail on your computer and don't have a great internet connection. Moreover, I don't like the way it organizes mail by groups.

Sorry, Apple Mail is *not* feature rich, there is simply no way you can say that. Name another client that doesn't support IMAP folder subscriptions or multiple identities that calls itself feature rich?

I don't know how you could have found Mail to be faster either, but since that is difficult to quantify I'll leave that alone...
     
Gankdawg
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May 14, 2008, 09:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by naphtali View Post
@Gankdawg - Worked for me from day one too! I didn't make the extra effort to go set them as Windows friendly attachments either. What programs were those images edited with? What extra files are you getting?
Ok, I sent 2 photos from iPhoto to Mail, no editing was done on either one. In Mail, 'Always Send Windows Friendly Attachments' has a check mark by it. I got 4 files: 2 JPGs and 2 additional files, ATT00001 (230 B) and ATT00002 (228 B). Any ideas? I am using Outlook here at work, but my parents use Outlook Express and they get the extra files too.
     
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May 14, 2008, 10:53 AM
 
     
CharlesS
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May 14, 2008, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gankdawg View Post
Ok, I sent 2 photos from iPhoto to Mail, no editing was done on either one. In Mail, 'Always Send Windows Friendly Attachments' has a check mark by it. I got 4 files: 2 JPGs and 2 additional files, ATT00001 (230 B) and ATT00002 (228 B). Any ideas? I am using Outlook here at work, but my parents use Outlook Express and they get the extra files too.
That's weird, I just tried e-mailing myself a PNG with a resource fork on it, and when I have "Always Send Windows-Friendly Attachments" checked, the AppleDouble file for the resource fork doesn't show up when I check the account in SquirrelMail, and when I send that same file with ASWFA off, I do get the extra file.

The other thing I find odd is that when I turn off ASWFA, the resulting AppleDouble files usually have the same name as the original file. Could you make sure that AppleDouble is indeed what this is by checking the MIME type of the included attachment? If it's AppleDouble, its MIME type will be application/applefile.

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naphtali
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May 14, 2008, 01:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gankdawg View Post
Ok, I sent 2 photos from iPhoto to Mail, no editing was done on either one. In Mail, 'Always Send Windows Friendly Attachments' has a check mark by it. I got 4 files: 2 JPGs and 2 additional files, ATT00001 (230 B) and ATT00002 (228 B). Any ideas? I am using Outlook here at work, but my parents use Outlook Express and they get the extra files too.
I don't know exactly what the problem is, but I'm rather sure it's not due to Mail* - I get used to get such funny files (using Outlook) from Windows Outlook users too

But that's years back, such that when you mentioned the problem earlier I didn't think about it


@Tetanal - Wow that's probably what I saw a few years back then! Trying to wrap my head around
1) file names resulting in such an issue
2) the blogger having to pay to report a bug


*I really am not trying to be an Apple/Mail apologist. I feel bad that some of you have so much problems with Mail, because it's really quite a nice app - unobtrusive, simple and useful.
     
besson3c
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May 14, 2008, 01:20 PM
 
I wouldn't define an app that takes up enormous amounts of CPU cycles to spin its wheels and do nothing "unobtrusive".
     
TETENAL
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May 14, 2008, 01:24 PM
 
     
besson3c
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May 14, 2008, 01:33 PM
 
Tetenal: how many messages do you have in your accounts, approx? Do you keep your Activity Viewer open to see how damn chatty Mail is? Have you ever seen a task be reported there that really didn't need to have been done?

It is possible that for you, you don't notice a problem due to a sort of brute force effect of not having enough mail and a fast enough CPU, but I can assure you that Mail is a freakin' PIG on my G4 1.25 Ghz with well over 20,000 messages - so much so, that is is literally unusable.
     
naphtali
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May 14, 2008, 11:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Tetenal: how many messages do you have in your accounts, approx? Do you keep your Activity Viewer open to see how damn chatty Mail is? Have you ever seen a task be reported there that really didn't need to have been done?

It is possible that for you, you don't notice a problem due to a sort of brute force effect of not having enough mail and a fast enough CPU, but I can assure you that Mail is a freakin' PIG on my G4 1.25 Ghz with well over 20,000 messages - so much so, that is is literally unusable.

For me, Mail takes up 0.1% while idle, jumps up to 7.8% when checking two IMAP accounts and then goes back to 0.1%.

From the activity viewer, Mail does seem to do quite a lot - 7 or so tasks, but it does them all in 2-3 seconds (when there's no mail waiting to be downloaded)

I've only recently upgraded to a 2.4GHz MBP, so my prior and similarly pleasant experiences with Mail have been on a G4 1.33GHz PowerBook.

But as I said, I'm really aggressive with keeping my mailbox neat and tidy, and I think that definitely helps. It's quite clear (and sad) by now that Mail does seem to have problems with huge mailboxes.

Some of my emails come with quite huge attachments, and I find that it helps to leave Mail alone on first run, let it download whatever it wants to so it doesn't have to do that on subsequent runs.

If I had to gripe about something, it would be that on rare occasions Mail held up shut downs due to its chattiness so I'd either have to wait or force-quit it. But that's really rare these days so maybe something improved with 3.0.
     
besson3c
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May 14, 2008, 11:45 PM
 
I totally forgot about Mail's quitting problems. For me, I have to force quit Mail to get it to quit more often than not.

I think the take home message here is that Mail is definitely quite buggy, but these bugs affect some people more than others.

I miss some of Mail's interface, but Thunderbird is way way way better performing and far less quirky for me.
     
mduell
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May 15, 2008, 12:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I totally forgot about Mail's quitting problems. For me, I have to force quit Mail to get it to quit more often than not.
I forgot about that one. Haven't rebooted in a while, and that's about the only time I'd want to close Mail.
     
CharlesS
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May 15, 2008, 02:48 AM
 
Mail used to do that a lot in previous versions, but I've found that the Leopard version is a lot better in that regard.

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thibaulthalpern
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May 15, 2008, 10:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Plant7575 View Post
Time out guys (and gals?). Remember me? The original poster?
I love the way you describe how you use technology. Indeed, some of us like having the latest gadget and software (myself included) which can sometimes be "imprisoning". :-)
     
Gamoe
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May 16, 2008, 05:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Plant7575 View Post
However, we have also been using Netscape as our email manager -- again for many years. I have discovered that OSX has a mail facility, but I don't know how good it is. What are the other alternatives to OSX Mail? What do most people use? What do you recommend?
Plant7575, I thought I stuck it out long with Netscape! Welcome to a better world! I used to use Netscape Communicator back in the day, and I had no trouble transitioning to Mail(.app), Apple's included mail client, and I consider myself a relatively computer-savvy user.

It's apparent from this thread that there's a segment of the Mac population which does not care for Mail. If you find yourself in that group, then definitely give ThunderBird or another of the mentioned clients a try.

However, I would strongly suggest you try using Mail.app first. In my opinion, it's a decent mail client, and I use it with a number of accounts with no issues. It's also very integrated with other services in the OS, unlike most other clients, and is usually quite stable.

Mail exporting/importing: I may be mistaken, as this was quite a while back, but I have a vague recollection of copying e-Mails from Netscape Communicator to Mail... I believe the format has changed since then, however, due to Spotlight's requirements for indexing files. However, I do believe Mail can still import and read Netscape's format (which might just be the mbox format?). Just look at Netscape's export and Mail's import functions. It might actually be a trivial matter.
( Last edited by Gamoe; May 16, 2008 at 05:59 AM. )
     
turtle777
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May 16, 2008, 09:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I totally forgot about Mail's quitting problems. For me, I have to force quit Mail to get it to quit more often than not.
This is unfortunately true.

But it's even worse with Safari.

As soon as you have many windows open, it'll take forever and ever to close down.
And I'm on a 2.4G iMac Core2Duo. WTF is the hold up ?

Most of the time, I just "kill -9" it. Effing annoying.

-t
     
turtle777
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May 16, 2008, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
In my inexpert opinion, ir's usually because Safari is eating up a ton of VRAM (over a gig). Sadly, I happier dealing with the slow quit in v3, then what I used to get in v2 -- hangs as soon as the VRAM got too big.
It's still friggin annoying. It makes a bad user experience.

We shouldn't be bothered with that kind of stuff, at least not noticeable. Let the OS clean up the VRAM AFTER Safari is closed, but don't let the user see the friggin SBOD all the time.

-t

Edit: Oh, yeay, post from the future. Thanks, hampstor.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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May 16, 2008, 09:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
But it's even worse with Safari.

As soon as you have many windows open, it'll take forever and ever to close down.
And I'm on a 2.4G iMac Core2Duo. WTF is the hold up ?
In my inexpert opinion, ir's usually because Safari is eating up a ton of VRAM (over a gig). Sadly, I happier dealing with the slow quit in v3, then what I used to get in v2 -- hangs as soon as the VRAM got too big.
     
CharlesS
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May 16, 2008, 12:20 PM
 
Why would Safari be hogging the video RAM? First I've ever heard of that.

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besson3c
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May 16, 2008, 12:22 PM
 
I was wondering the same...
     
Dakar the Fourth
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May 16, 2008, 12:23 PM
 
I'm sorry, what's the proper abbreviation for Virtual RAM?

Edit: My bad, it's VM, Virtual Memory.
     
Terrin
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May 17, 2008, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Sorry, Apple Mail is *not* feature rich, there is simply no way you can say that. Name another client that doesn't support IMAP folder subscriptions or multiple identities that calls itself feature rich?

I don't know how you could have found Mail to be faster either, but since that is difficult to quantify I'll leave that alone...
I guess it depends by what you mean by feature rich. For me it means I have all the things I need to write a variety of different types of email and organize them. For you it apparently means something else. I also mean by features Mail's integration with other Apple programs and it's handling of multimedia, which is better then other choices.

I don't use IMAP, so I can't speak to that, but neither does the original poster. Moreover, most email clients were designed with Windows in mind, and Apple as a second thought. Apple's Mail really doesn't need the ability to have multiple identities when 1) you can import multiple mailboxes (and organize them separately), and 2) OSX allows you to easily change from one user identity to another (that is not to say you don't find the feature useful).


Finally, just because Mail is missing a few features doesn't mean it can't be considered feature rich.
     
besson3c
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May 17, 2008, 04:02 PM
 
We've been over the multiple identity thing several times, so I'll spare the others us going into this again... You'll just have to trust me that what you are thinking of as being multiple identities likely isn't, that Mail is indeed lacking this feature, and that it is indeed useful.

You're right though, "feature rich" is vague and is going to mean different things to different people - especially when you get into comparing Thunderbird out of the box vs. Thunderbird with any number of add-ons installed (there are probably hundreds). Let me put it this way, this is probably a more accurate criticism of Mail that can be defined a little better: Mail is quirky, buggy, and scales poorly with large mailboxes.
     
 
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