[yakkiebah]

I find it a little odd that something this big hasn't reached the MSM yet. I can't believe this really has happend but it has.

Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

For the past eleven years the organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC), representing the 57 Islamic States, has been tightening its grip on the throat of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Yesterday, 28 March 2008, they finally killed it.

With the support of their allies including China, Russia and Cuba (none well-known for their defence of human rights) the Islamic States succeeded in forcing through an amendment to a resolution on Freedom of Expression that has turned the entire concept on its head. The UN Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Expression will now be required to report on the “abuse” of this most cherished freedom by anyone who, for example, dares speak out against Sharia laws that require women to be stoned to death for adultery or young men to be hanged for being gay, or against the marriage of girls as young as nine, as in Iran.

Former UN Secretary General Kofi Annan saw the writing on the wall three years ago when he spoke of the old Commission on Human Rights having “become too selective and too political in its work”. Piecemeal reform would not be enough. The old system needed to be swept away and replaced by something better. The Human Rights Council was supposed to be that new start, a Council whose members genuinely supported, and were prepared to defend, the principles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Yet since its inception in June 2006, the Human Rights Council has failed to condemn the most egregious examples of human rights abuse in the Sudan, Byelorussia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, China and elsewhere, whilst repeatedly condemning Israel and Israel alone.

Three years later Annan’s dream lies shattered, and the Human Rights Council stands exposed as incapable of fulfilling its central role: the promotion and protection of human rights. The Council died yesterday in Geneva, and with it the Universal Declaration of Human Rights whose 60th anniversary we were actually celebrating this year.

Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

UN rights council passes Islamic resolution on religious defamation

Saudi Arabia said, "Maybe Islam is one of the most obvious victims of aggressions under the pretext of freedom of expression."

"It is regrettable that there are false translations and interpretations of the freedom of expression," the Saudi delegation told the council, adding that no culture should incite to religious hatred by attacking sacred teachings.

George Orwell must be turning around in his grave.

I don't know what to say but many questions go through my mind. Time for a new organisation, time to get rid of the UN? Islam truly incompatible with freedom? Have "moderate" muslims in the west fully embraced freedom of expression? A full blown international conflict closer and closer? Where is the outrage?

Shame on us for letting this happen. Unbievable.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah 

time to get rid of the UN?

Welcome to 40 years ago.

Originally Posted by yakkiebah 

Islam truly incompatible with freedom?

Nope.

Originally Posted by yakkiebah 

Have "moderate" muslims in the west fully embraced freedom of expression?

There's no such thing as a "moderate" muslim. There are patient muslims and impatient muslims. Period.


I have just one question: When is everyone going to wake up and see this unholy, pox-ridden gobbledegook death cult for what it is?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Yes, I agree. Islam isn't really hiding its true face and its intention: that it cannot abide any dissent or criticism and will abuse democratic bodies to achieve anti-democratic measures.

I for one, am not surprised or shocked.

However, this is the General Assembly of the UN we are talking about. They don't have any actual power, so freedom of speech is not in danger, at least not from them.

The fact that this non-binding resolution passed shows three things:

1.That the UN is still as out of touch with human rights as it was before the United Nations Commission on Human Rights was dissolved. Let us not forget that Sudan was voted into that commission in 2004 when they were committing genocide in Darfur. Libya headed the commission in the early 2000s etc etc. It was a joke, and not a good one.

2. That the European states are against this resolution, since they voted unanimously against it and that 16 of 17 of the Organization of the Islamic Conference voted for it, demonstrating the anti-human rights and totalitarian core of Islamic countries and the religion they share.

3. That the UN Human Rights Council is just as much a joke as the thing it replaced and that it hardly reflects the Security Council and the passing of this resolution in the first year (2007) of the UNHRC demonstrates that, since the majority of the UNSC is against this resolution.

As for the manistream media, well it did report this on this commission:

Jackson Diehl - A Shadow on the Human Rights Movement - washingtonpost.com

It's just that when push comes to shove, this resolution is politically correct. Especially in the opininon of your average European leftist and American civil-libertarian. Both of which are very influencial groups.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

There's no such thing as a "moderate" muslim. There are patient muslims and impatient muslims. Period.

There are moderate Muslims. They're just not part of normative Islam.

[lpkmckenna]

I guess I'm gonna have to go to Fark if I want an intelligent discussion about Islam, eh?

On topic, the UN has been dropping the ball for decades.

[paul w]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

There's no such thing as a "moderate" muslim. There are patient muslims and impatient muslims. Period.

It's amazing to me how content people can be to spout total, offensive bullshit about something that manifestly they know nothing about. It's the kind of tired reactionary, knee jerk thinking that breeds hate, violence and very often makes bad situations worse.

I'm not going to defend bad people, or explain that there are people who sincerely believe in Islam that want nothing to do with violence - and that they have that in common with Christians and Jew and atheists and even fans of eighties hair metal.

This is not debate, or an exchange of ideas. It's just totally pathetic and lazy. I don't know why I keep clicking on this trainwreck, but I guess I have better things to do. Thank god/allah/yahweh the baseball season is underway.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by paul w 

... and even fans of eighties hair metal.

If you're not into metal, you are not my friend.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by paul w 

It's amazing to me how content people can be to spout total, offensive bullshit about something that manifestly they know nothing about. It's the kind of tired reactionary, knee jerk thinking that breeds hate, violence and very often makes bad situations worse.

Sorry mate but it's you who knows nothing about the subject - I've been studying it since 1989 when one of their number blew a friend of mine out of the sky. Our very own Sayf has actually agreed with me on point you quoted.

My comments here aren't a knee-jerk - they're the rational result of studying the subject. If anyone's coming out with knee-jerk thinking, it's you knee-jerking at my comments.

Yakkiebah asked how we've managed to let something like this happen. Well, I'll tell you how: There's too many people like you with their heads in the sand, assuming that islam is the same as other religions. It's not. islam has been at war with everyone since the year the pedophile terrorist invented it. That's a fact - go check your history. And while you're at it, go read the koran. And remember that every muslim believes that it's the untarnished words of their god.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by paul w 

I'm not going to defend bad people, or explain that there are people who sincerely believe in Islam that want nothing to do with violence - and that they have that in common with Christians and Jew and atheists and even fans of eighties hair metal.

Oh, and if you'd even bothered to ask instead of just knee-jerking, you'd see how close this paragraph is to what I said.

There are two types of muslim: Those who wish to see world domination as soon as possible. These are the impatient types who see bombs and the like as a means to their end.

And then there's the patient ones: Those who don't use violence and are quite prepared to wait until their demographic superiority gives them the edge and they can democratically change the world.

But no, you're too busy knee-jerking.

[paul w]

My head is by no means in the sand as I've done my own bit of studying. The koran, yes. The bible too. My arabic is pretty shabby, and coloquial (and yes it's far too religious a language for my taste, in spite of much of its beauty). And I have real world experience dealing with muslims in a variety of countries throughout the world. People I know, worked with, that I've been in the **** with and gotten a sense of their character. There's no global muslim consiracy any more than there was a Jewish conspiracy.

You may be able to speak as to whether Islam is fundamentally flawed, whether it seems to inspire violence towards others more than other religions, and those could be valid points. Arguable points, provided you take the time to make them. But it seems like you have too much of a score to settle to do so. That's what you want? Fine - but the trolling forums looking for a fight bores me.

[Doofy]

I'm not trolling for a fight. I'm stating my opinion of a cult masquerading as a religion.

Is that OK with you? Is it within my human rights to do so?

You see what's happened here? You've played right into the hands of those who would take our right of expression away. You demand a "discussion" when no discussion is required - I don't need to have a discussion to state my opinion. This is exactly how islam has been conditioning the west to approach their cult, and exactly how we came to be in the situation described in the OP.

I'll leave you wondering whether I planned it that way or not.

[paul w]

no. I don't want to take away your right to say muslim are evil and boobies are awesome*. i was simply stating my own opinion that that kind of sentiment saddens and frightens me.

I'm not going to try and read into people's online statements. I take you (anybody I don't actually know) at face value, your words speak for you and I react accordingly.

oh, whatever...

*so to speak

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

There's no such thing as a "moderate" muslim. There are patient muslims and impatient muslims. Period.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I have just one question: When is everyone going to wake up and see this unholy, pox-ridden gobbledegook death cult for what it is?

Originally Posted by Doofy 

islam has been at war with everyone since the year the pedophile terrorist invented it.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I'm stating my opinion of a cult masquerading as a religion.

I feel offended.

Taliesin

[Kerrigan]

And?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

I feel offended.

More offended than hearing about a 54-year-old bloke shagging a 9-year-old?

[Atomic Rooster]

"Universal Declaration of Human Rights: DEAD"

Ko0l thread title. Sounds like we have a right to be dead. Death to all zombies. Wait they're already dead!

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I'm not trolling for a fight. I'm stating my opinion of a cult masquerading as a religion.

Is that OK with you? Is it within my human rights to do so?

You see what's happened here? You've played right into the hands of those who would take our right of expression away. You demand a "discussion" when no discussion is required - I don't need to have a discussion to state my opinion. This is exactly how islam has been conditioning the west to approach their cult, and exactly how we came to be in the situation described in the OP.

I'll leave you wondering whether I planned it that way or not.

Speaking as an admitted and true Islamophobe and a a dedicated atheist I would say that all religions are cults. Religions are mind controlling.

I trust no one.

[Kerrigan]

All religions are cults? Hmm, that's similar to how all liberals are rubbish.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I'm stating my opinion of a cult masquerading as a religion.

Sorry, the difference between a cult and a religion is clearly just a quantitative and not a qualitative one

[Chongo]

Too long to post. Read them yourselves
Warning Signs
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Ten signs of a safe group/leader.

[Chongo]

on a lighter side
Cult News from Rick Ross � Has Oprah Winfrey become a televangelist?

For some time Oprah Winfrey has been drifting further and further out to the fringes of “New Age” philosophy, which is strewn with “self-help” claims. And her fans have faithfully followed the star without much meaningful critical thinking, somewhat like cult members enamored with a self-styled messianic leader.

[- - e r i k - -]

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Uh oh. Catholic Church

[Weyland-Yutani]

Ten signs of a safe group/leader.

1. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.

2. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.

3. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.

4. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.

5. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.

6. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.

7. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.

8. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.

9. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.

10. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.

Not even the boy scouts fulfil that criteria

As you were..

[Face Ache]

Seems it's only people with axes to grind who come to this particular grindstone to make sparks fly.

All religions are cults. Some are harmless (like Scientology, heheheh), and some are dangerous (like the Danzanites*).






*Tony Danza IS NOT a god.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

Yes, I agree. Islam isn't really hiding its true face and its intention: that it cannot abide any dissent or criticism and will abuse democratic bodies to achieve anti-democratic measures.

For someone who believes all Muslims are a threat and should be deported from the West, you're not really in a position to express any legitimate outrage about this so-called loss of human rights.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

And?

And what? I could easily debunk all the accusations, show that prophet Muhammad was neither a terrorist nor a pedophile, show that Islam is not a cult, show and demonstrate that and this... but it would make no difference as I have already done that numerous times, but after a few weeks/months Doofy and co return to their debunked propaganda as if nothing happened.

People with an agenda aren't open to a genuine discussion, they just want to present their propaganda, and when debunked they let it rest for a while and return with the same propaganda later again. Maybe they need something where they can hatespeak about so that they feel superior and better.

That said, that doesn't mean that in Islam everything is alright, quite to the contrary, there is a lot to criticize and to change for the better, but as humans are fallible that should be no surprise and considering the history of the last three centuries and espescially the last four decades as playballs in the coldwar maybe inevitable.

Taliesin

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

All religions are cults? Hmm, that's similar to how all liberals are rubbish.

Actually, by at least 3 of the definitions of "cult", all religions are cults.

Cult
1.
a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5.
a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Sorry, the difference between a cult and a religion is clearly just a quantitative and not a qualitative one

The difference between the two is how hard it is to leave if you change your mind. Religions tend to say "please don't go" while cults tend to be a tad harder to leave.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

And what? I could easily debunk all the accusations

Sorry mate, you're delusional.

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

show that prophet Muhammad was neither a terrorist

Except for all the terror he inflicted on the inhabitants of Mecca, you mean.

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

nor a pedophile

he shagged a 9-year-old when he was 54. What else would you call that?

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

show that Islam is not a cult

Might want to change the view on apostasy then.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

he shagged a 9-year-old when he was 54. What else would you call that?

"The Leader of the Gang?"

[Doofy]

Oh dear. Now I have a mental image of the pedophile terrorist standing by the roadside just outside Mecca singing "d'ya wanna be in my gang, my gang, my gang...".

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Wow, most politicians and governments.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten 

For someone who believes all Muslims are a threat and should be deported from the West, you're not really in a position to express any legitimate outrage about this so-called loss of human rights.

For a anti human-rights muslim you're not really in a position to express any legitamate outrage about my opinions.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Face Ache 

Seems it's only people with axes to grind who come to this particular grindstone to make sparks fly.

Only people interested in this discusson post in this thread? You've often made more sense that this Face Ache.

How could this thread turn from the abuse of democracy to stifle human rights, to become about something so irrelevant as to what is a 'cult' by some arbitrary definitions?

It explains a few things, such as why human rights are slowly (and sometimes not so slowly) eroding.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

All religions are cults? Hmm, that's similar to how all liberals are rubbish.

Comparing individuals to institutions (religion, cults, etc.) is faulty Kerrigan.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

And what? I could easily debunk all the accusations, show that prophet Muhammad was neither a terrorist nor a pedophile, show that Islam is not a cult, show and demonstrate that and this... but it would make no difference as I have already done that numerous times, but after a few weeks/months Doofy and co return to their debunked propaganda as if nothing happened.Taliesin

It's not your arguments, but your 'facts'. Reality???? Their violent actions speak louder than your words. Obviously the reasons the muslims react the way they do, as brainwashed/instructed by other muslims, is a cause for alarm. Seen any good cartoons lately? Everybody on the planet understands that disrespect is a norm. Everybody else understands this except the thin skinned, immature muslims. it's not like muslims don't practice disrespect to each other, and the rest of the world.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Oh nice! "Muslims are immature."

greg

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

For anyone that goes apeshit over a cartoon, but thinks nothing of, or worse, approves of the routine horrors committed in the name of their religion- immature is about the tamest way of putting it.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Needs More Adjectives™