Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Charlottesville, Nazis, Antifa, Confederate Statues, and Tea Cozies

Charlottesville, Nazis, Antifa, Confederate Statues, and Tea Cozies (Page 5)
Thread Tools
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2017, 06:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Did he say 'some on the left are totalitarian,' or 'the real racists have always been some folks on the left?' True, I conflated the 'left are evil' with 'those on the left follow an evil ideology.' but that's pretty much a distinction without a difference- you don't often find good people following an evil ideology. He did not offer qualifiers or equivocations on any of those statements, nor can I see that they were implied. The entire tone of the video was that the left were not just misguided, they were actively bad people.

The point of original statement about Ben Shapiro was that he makes blanket, provocative statements about the left, and it is therefore no surprise that he get the same kind of rhetoric thrown back at him.

That is true and supported by what I posted.
Yep, as I said, there's no reason to talk with you.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Paco500
Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2017, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Yep, as I said, there's no reason to talk with you.
And yet you can't help yourself.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2017, 06:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I didn't bring up anything about "black men are just salivating over white women", you're introducing a motive that I didn't have.
Yeah you did. No you didn't use those particular words. But I quoted the words you did use which conveyed the exact same notion. And you conveniently chose not to address that specific point and instead simply issued a general denial. As is your typical M.O. Complete with a "But my ex-wife is black ...." comment to try to obfuscate your own bigotry. Moving on ...

OAW
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2017, 07:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Yeah you did. No you didn't use those particular words. But I quoted the words you did use which conveyed the exact same notion. And you conveniently chose not to address that specific point and instead simply issued a general denial. As is your typical M.O. Complete with a "But my ex-wife is black ...." comment to try to obfuscate your own bigotry. Moving on ...
WTF? I didn't think we had any racists here on MacNN, but there you are, bold as brass, posting racist memes and talking your bigoted crap, like the KKK and neo-nazis who were at Charlottesville, only from the other side. No, I don't think you can just "move on" from this, not around here anyway. Wow.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2017, 07:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
And yet you can't help yourself.
I kept extending an olive branch for conversation, but then you abuse me with it. Not anymore.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2017, 08:48 PM
 
As CTP continues to play the victim when confronted with his own ... “lack of clarity” ... perhaps the rest of us should focus on the fact that the CEO’s of two different advisory councils have been abandoning Trump in droves in the aftermath of his comments regarding the events that transpired in Charlottesville. Forcing him to “disband” them preemptively when they had already quit.

Trump’s Business Councils Disband After CEOs Defect

OAW
     
Waragainstsleep
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2017, 08:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
So before you said, "the left is allowed morons of its own." But Nazis who claim to be conservative (but have a combined IQ that barely reaches triple digits) are supposed to weigh heavily on the collective conservative conscience?
Racism was a huge facet of Trump's campaign. People can deny they heard it, they can claim he didn't mean it, they can claim they thought he'd change his mind, but none of these is a valid excuse. Anyone who voted for Trump empowered the Nazis and white supremacists. Most of them know it too.


Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I don't recall enabling them any more than the left doesn't recall enabling James Hodgkinson.
Hillary didn't run on a ticket of shooting Republican members of Congress. Maybe she should have. A vote for her in no way enabled or endorsed that shooter. Trumps partners were clear from early on. Vote for Trump, you vote with the white supremacists and the KKK etc. Its good advice to check who else is voting for your team. It can often be a decent indicator of whether you are on the right side of things.

These Nazis felt comfortable holding a massive rally with torches because their guy is in charge. A lot of them are now crying their eyes out after being identified and shamed on the internet, or having arrest warrants issued against them. Hopefully that encourage them not to try again.

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I complained bitterly about Trump during his entire campaign and lamented the GOP's naivete concerning the man who would set conservatism back 50 years. I've not supported him, nor defended him.
I was using a generic "you" by this point in my post. Not you personally.


Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I feel like I was 100% on board with the tenor of your post until it degraded into the hyperbole at the end, with the United States entering the beginning of a new Holocaust. Trump will not be Hitler. He can't. He's getting voted out in three years. Even conservatives who loved him in northwestern Louisiana are looking around saying, "Well...crap."
The polls had him getting his ass handed to him most of the way through the election campaign, written off as a bad joke from day one. His approval rating may be in the toilet where it belongs but 30% or whatever it is is still way higher than it ought to be. He should be in single digits really. And lets not pretend he's above cheating if he can find a way. He's not voted out until he's voted out.

I'm not saying theres going to be another holocaust, but this is definitely how the last one started. It would be foolish to be complacent about it. Theres a whole famous poem about that.

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Our government isn't set up for dictatorships. It's set up to topple those who attempt to acquire too much power.
And yet you are resigned to a full term of this douchebag. Is there any way to trigger an early presidential election in the US?

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Whatever semblance of power they thought they had ended the moment that poor woman got ran over. Now the entire nation hates them even more.
Lets hope so but if there is one thing Trump is genuinely good at its glossing over awful things and providing distractions.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2017, 09:17 PM
 
An interesting op-ed that sums it up quite nicely ...

Moreover, it appears he's happy for his presidency—to paraphrase adviser Steve Bannon’s notorious description of Breitbart—to be a platform for the "alt-right" and in exactly the same sense. Trump doesn't want his administration actually to be "alt-right" (it is overwhelmingly composed of honorable men and women) and he isn't himself "alt-right." But he is keenly aware of the political energy in the fever swamp. He learned this during his time as a birther and during a campaign when sundry haters, conspiracy theorists, s***posters, trolls and bots provided air cover. So he wants to do the minimum necessary to distance himself from it and the maximum possible to associate himself with it.

This would explain his conflicted, otherwise unaccountable reaction to Charlottesville. He initially wanted to maintain some ambiguity. When that was unsustainable, he was willing to read a more specific denunciation of the right-wing groups under duress. But that didn't sit well with him. At his news conference, he repeated his condemnation of neo-Nazis, but praised the menacing torch-lit march on the grounds of the University of Virginia on Friday and maintained there were “fine people” who protested on the "alt-right" side.

These sentiments would be outrageous enough if uttered by the proverbial blogger rather than a man standing in front of a lecternaffixed with the presidential seal of the United States
This shit is as obvious as the day is long. To all but the most deliberately obtuse among us.

The Breitbart Presidency | Politico.com

OAW
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2017, 09:40 PM
 
I don't think we are all too far away from each other on this issue.

Allow me to attempt to summarize, please let me know if I'm off base here...

CTP and Snow-i are saying that violence is violence, and while the concept of protesting the KKK/Neo-nazis and maybe some stuff getting out of hand is obviously not on the level of the KKK/Neo-nazis themselves, Antifa in particular has a history of violence that should not be ignored. I honestly don't really know or care too much about Antifa, so if this is an accurate summation I guess this is a fair point.

That being said, can we all agree that there are not "fine people" on the KKK/Neo-nazi side of things, as Trump claimed? Can we agree that whether or not you think Trump's statements are being blown out of proportion, they were very clumsy at best, and have poured gasoline on the flames?

I hope so, and I hope we can agree that while past presidents may have said things we disagree with, things that were disingenuous, etc. they generally didn't say as much stupid shit as Trump has said so far? I mean, I think most reasonable people with good sense about them would realize that the "fine people" statements (and his press conference in general) were just stupid things to say that not only did not serve in his political interest, but really didn't accomplish any good? I mean, most people are probably not up on their history and awareness of Antifa, but everybody knows the KKK and have heard clips from various people associated with these sort of groups saying repulsive stuff. A smart leader wouldn't touch that shit with a 50 mile pole.

If you think this is par for the course with a business man turned politician and don't mind giving him some slack here, can we agree that maybe Trump should get somebody else to talk for him from time to time, and perhaps should spend less time on Twitter? His diplomatic chops are absolutely terrible.
( Last edited by besson3c; Aug 16, 2017 at 09:51 PM. )
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 04:13 AM
 
Nazis are bad, they have really bad ideas, they make pond scum look appealing, but they use words unless you assault them. The leaders were specifically telling them not to hit anyone unless they hit you, then "hit them back 10x harder". It turns out the whole "punch a nazi" thing was a bad idea, in fact, initiating violence led to someone getting killed. Who knew? Don't punch nazis, don't punch anyone.

What's really worrying right now is that they just received a massive media facelift, 72 hours of coverage that will likely expand to a week or more, because our media likes to create villains and then parade them around for a while, for ratings. Well, it turns out there are a LOT of disaffected white yoots in the world, people who don't understand why affirmative action has seemingly screwed them and why they pay so much in taxes, and they see other guys screaming about it, waving Walgreens tiki torches, and they think, "why can't I have a tiki torch?" They don't quite understand why racism is bad, but those guys waving tiki torches say it's because of minorities taking their stuff and immigration. World War 2 was a long time ago, these yoots don't understand why extremism is bad, where racial hatred leads, they just want to hang out with guys who are also upset, so they reach out to the bad people they saw online, even to the point VOIP servers are straining (true thing, Discord and Teamspeak have seen a 400% increase in activity). They already hate people like Rosie O'Donnell, because they talk trash about their favorite games and music, and she's really losing her sh*t over nazis. To them that's a great thing, they like being edgy. <-- That's where we are now. Then the next gathering is announced and 5x more people in white shirts show up carrying torches and flags. WTF? Well, it seems banning shit, repressing free speech, and giving something a huge amount of press makes it more popular. Who knew?

Don't infringe their rights (you'll only make them seem cooler and, even worse, force the conversation out of public view, which is a big deal). Don't assault them (do show up and let them know they're stupid, though). And most importantly, don't give these idiots more media attention. If you turn this into a real grassroots-style movement, and not just a bunch of morons carrying tiki torches and saying racist crap, you're going to start a real war.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 04:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
As CTP continues to play the victim when confronted with his own ... “lack of clarity” ... perhaps the rest of us should focus on the fact that the CEO’s of two different advisory councils have been abandoning Trump in droves in the aftermath of his comments regarding the events that transpired in Charlottesville. Forcing him to “disband” them preemptively when they had already quit.

Trump’s Business Councils Disband After CEOs Defect
You're trying, I can see it, but you can't run from your own bigotry, it turns out that wherever you go, you're taking it with you. No matter what you feel others have done to "trigger" your actions, you're still responsible for them. History can't be changed. Reflect on what you've been thinking, realize that you've let very bad things create in you the same type of negative emotions, and stop the cycle of racism. No, after thinking it over I shouldn't have said that was your fantasy, I apologize, and at the same time you should have never posted that crap in the first place, and then you doubled-down with:

Ha! There's nothing a white woman can do for me that a black woman can't other than be white. And clearly I'm not impressed by that. Hence why I've never seen any reason to go "playing in the snow." It's just never been worth my time nor the aggravation that would ensue.
Trying to counter hate with hate, and racism with racism, harms everyone, especially yourself. Just stop.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Doc HM
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UKland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 05:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Nazis are bad, they have really bad ideas, they make pond scum look appealing, but they use words unless you assault them.
Historically this is of course entirely untrue.

We can wait and see if reversion to the mean occurs I guess?
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 06:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Historically this is of course entirely untrue.
Please show me where US alt-Right protesters were violent before the group was assaulted. This last weekend there was no violence before the Antifa attacks began, creating a riot. Yes, terrible things happened after that, but some idiots decided to kick the hornet's' nest. The woman that died would still be alive if her friends hadn't introduced violence to the event. It doesn't work, "punching nazis" is stupid, people are idiots if they think "punching nazis" will help in any way.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 06:33 AM
 
Atlanta’s Peace Monument, desecrated by protesters, champions unity, not the Confederacy

http://buzz.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/14/...e-confederacy/

Protesters took to the streets in Atlanta and elsewhere Sunday night, outraged over the violence in Charlottesville, where a “Unite the Right” rally clashed with counter protesters. Heather Heyer, 32, was killed when a car plowed through a group of pedestrians. James Alex Fields Jr., 20, a failed military aspirant whose former high school teacher said he was “fascinated with Nazism” and “idolized Adolf Hitler,” was charged with second-degree murder and was denied bond on Monday.

The Atlanta march traveled from Woodruff Park to Piedmont Park Sunday, where some damaged the Peace Monument, erected in 1911. The sculpture features an angel standing above a Confederate soldier, guiding him to lay down his weapon.
The idiocy needs to stop.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Doc HM
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UKland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 08:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Please show me where US alt-Right protesters were violent before the group was assaulted.
Not at all what you said. Your statement was unequivocal. You didn't make any qualifications about which Nazi's were bad. You simply stated Nazi's only use bad words. Historically Nazi's use a lot more than just bad words given half a chance.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 09:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Please show me where US alt-Right protesters were violent before the group was assaulted. This last weekend there was no violence before the Antifa attacks began, creating a riot. Yes, terrible things happened after that, but some idiots decided to kick the hornet's' nest. The woman that died would still be alive if her friends hadn't introduced violence to the event. It doesn't work, "punching nazis" is stupid, people are idiots if they think "punching nazis" will help in any way.

You are putting people in a box again.

Emotional human beings are capable of violence, and when you have a gang of intimidating people being heckled or not getting the responses they wish, violence is always close. Perhaps the KKK are a disciplined and well-organized group where this doesn't happen all that often, but many of them don't appear to be terrible bright or emotionally centred, so they could easily break discipline. It may or may not have happened recently (I'm not going to research the history of the alt-right, KKK, and/or neo-nazi rallies), but I think we should be more concerned with the root causes of these problems, not the symptoms (e.g. rallies and behavior at rallies).

The root cause is the ideology of the KKK and perhaps the alt-right. I'm not suggesting they should be punched nor any other violent response condoned, and I'm not suggesting that free speech should be curtailed (although this doesn't mean that we have to provide venues), but I'm not sure that the "ignore them" approach does enough to combat hate groups, because that might imply apathy. Education, pressuring leaders, political engagement, supporting the victims, etc. is better than nothing.

CTP, you have gotten into trouble here with some of your positions and word choice, but I appreciate how difficult it is to have these discussions without setting people off. If you want to get along with more people here and have a more productive conversation I think you should cut back on your putting people into a box as if you have their psychologies all worked out. Human beings are too complex to put into a little box.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 10:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Poland's official stance on this issue is clear and concise, and our country could learn from it:

Uh...

People marching here are fascists themselves. See that green flag in the background? It's Młodzież Wszechpolska, and they're basically ONR Lite. Who's ONR? Well, they're Polish KKK.
     
Waragainstsleep
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 12:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
CTP, you have gotten into trouble here with some of your positions and word choice, but I appreciate how difficult it is to have these discussions without setting people off. If you want to get along with more people here and have a more productive conversation I think you should cut back on your putting people into a box as if you have their psychologies all worked out. Human beings are too complex to put into a little box.
He's going to keep having this problem until he gets past his irrational, obsessive hatred of the left that keeps leading him to defend assholes, bigots and child murderers at almost every opportunity.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
No, after thinking it over I shouldn't have said that was your fantasy, I apologize,
Fine. Apology accepted.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
and at the same time you should have never posted that crap in the first place,
In your opinion. I would just submit that if the joke upset you that much then perhaps it touched a nerve?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
and then you doubled-down with:

Originally Posted by OAW
Ha! There's nothing a white woman can do for me that a black woman can't other than be white. And clearly I'm not impressed by that. Hence why I've never seen any reason to go "playing in the snow." It's just never been worth my time nor the aggravation that would ensue.
Trying to counter hate with hate, and racism with racism, harms everyone, especially yourself. Just stop.
And again I stand by what I said. There's nothing in my statement that even remotely states or even implies "hate". And it doesn't magically become that simply because you say so. All I said was that a white woman gets no "extra points" from me as a potential romantic interest simply because she's white. Quite unlike what you seemed to instinctively think ... hence your apology above after I pointed that out to you. And other than a girl I kissed once in the 7th grade I've never been involved with a white woman romantically. Am I somehow obligated to in order to not be "racist" in your estimation? As a black man my romantic interests will always lean towards a black woman on the basis of the power of the cultural and social default. I couldn't even count the number of things I would need to "translate" for a white woman that I wouldn't even have to explain to a black woman simply because with the latter there is a common cultural and social experience. And we are in the middle of a thread where the topic is white nationalists and neo-nazis doing night marches with torches in the South. Openly and brazenly because they feel emboldened since "their guy" is in the White House. Extrapolate from that the portion of the white population who share the same sentiments to one degree or another but would never feel comfortable expressing it so publicly. But they exist throughout American society nonetheless. Yet I'm tripping because I've never thought it was worth the "aggravation" of dealing with what people like that could do to impede my educational, career, financial, etc. growth because they don't like the idea of me being with a white woman? Yeah. Ok.

OAW
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
In your opinion. I would just submit that if the joke upset you that much then perhaps it touched a nerve?
Come on, surely you recognize the negativity it reinforces?
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 12:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Please show me where US alt-Right protesters were violent before the group was assaulted.
Already did right here.




See the video of the assault that took place right next to the Charlottesville Police Station while the cops stood by and did nothing here ....

EXCLUSIVE VIDEO: White Supremacists Brutally Attack Black Teen Next To Charlottesville Police HQ

And a video of the aftermath from the perspective of the victim who was attacked after a verbal exchange right here ...



OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Aug 17, 2017 at 12:45 PM. )
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
I would like to respond here, but apologies, I've read this several times over and I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say, and I have a history of assuming you mean something far more objectionable than you actually do.

Could you clarify?
Sure! No need to apologize!

I think the confusion may arise from me (perhaps unexpectedly) being on team left in this situation.

I'm against the Nazis. Team left showed up to protest the Nazis. Since I'm against Nazis, that's the team I'm on. Disagreement over the means of ideal governance isn't going to stop me from locking arms with someone against Nazis.

As someone on team left I'm saying AntiFa worries me more than the Nazis. This because internal threats are worse than external ones. Just look at what internal threats have done to the right. I mean, that's why we have a Nazi problem.

I noted that to the military, a broken supply train is a bigger threat than a horde of Nazis. The broken supply train is a bigger threat even though it takes no moral stance, let alone one calling for genocide.

AntiFa is more dangerous than the Nazis because AntiFa makes the Nazis stronger. Just like the broken supply train makes the Nazis stronger.

Of course, there is a moral element to AntiFa, and I again point to the right to exemplify the dangers of moral corrosion.

I'll also add...

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Stare into the abyss and the abyss stares into you.
Let those who fight monsters take care lest they become monsters themselves.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by CTP
Please show me where US alt-Right protesters were violent before the group was assaulted.
Why would you even make a claim like this? Emotional human beings are capable of all sorts of shit, this shouldn't come as a surprise.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Come on, surely you recognize the negativity it reinforces?
As I explained earlier there's a reason why these white nationalists and neo-nazis are doing night marches screaming about "white genocide". The irrational fear of "white genetic annihilation" is at the very core of white supremacy as an ideology. The meme turns all that on its head. But if you see it differently I'm certainly open to hearing another perspective.

OAW
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 01:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
This is good, thanks for cutting through the hyperbole with clarity. There's so much nazi panic going on, few people are thinking clearly anymore. Poland's official stance on this issue is clear and concise, and our country could learn from it:


Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Uh...
People marching here are fascists themselves. See that green flag in the background? It's Młodzież Wszechpolska, and they're basically ONR Lite. Who's ONR? Well, they're Polish KKK.
I guess that explains this:
Poland's Bishops, People, and President Formally Declare Christ Their King.
In formal Jubilee act, Poland and its people acknowledge Jesus Christ as their King attended by tens of thousands.
Joseph Pronechen
"Immortal King of Ages Lord Jesus Christ, our God and Savior! In the Jubilee Year 1050 anniversary of the Baptism of Polish [people], in the Extraordinary Jubilee of Mercy, here we Poles stand in front of you (together with their authorities, clergy and laity) to acknowledge your reign, surrender to Thy law, entrust and take you to our homeland and the whole nation…We confess before heaven and earth, that your reign we need…Wishing to worship the majesty of Thy power and glory, with great faith and love, we cry out: Rule us Christ!”

So prayed the Polish bishops at the Church of Divine Mercy in Krakow, Poland, on Nov. 19 in a major ceremony formally declaring Jesus Christ as King of Poland. It was the day before the feast of Christ the King in the Church’s liturgical calendar. Poland’s President Andrzei Duda took part along with thousands of pilgrims in the Mass and ceremony. (Scroll down to read the entire prayer-declaration here.)

The ceremony marked the end of the Extraordinary Jubilee of Mercy and the 1,050 anniversary of Polish Christianity


I thought the KKK hated Catholics.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Paco500
Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
As I explained earlier there's a reason why these white nationalists and neo-nazis are doing night marches screaming about "white genocide". The irrational fear of "white genetic annihilation" is at the very core of white supremacy as an ideology. The meme turns all that on its head. But if you see it differently I'm certainly open to hearing another perspective.

OAW
I'm struggling to understand who on this board this meme would be considered offensive or challenging to.

There are a number of people I don't see eye to eye with, but I don't think any would side with the racists this meme is mocking. Thus far, only you and the Captain have raised an objection, and he is a free speech above all kind of guy, so I imagine it was a personal beef with OAW that prompted his post.

Not sure what your issue is. I think it's ok to have a chuckle at the expense of Nazis.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Why is it only the (we're no worse than you, honest) right that get to use an argument like that?

A reaction to fascism is necessary. When people who passionately believe that fascism is wrong and must not go unchallenged stand in front of a crowd who are chanting in support of genocide, who want violence to happen but don't want to throw the first punch (if they will get caught) so they provoke, things are going to kick off.

The anti fascists wouldn't turn up if the fascists didn't. Cause and effect.


Once upon a time some other anti-fascists turned up without a permit and caused a bit of a ruckus:




Were they just as bad?
Are we taking about the same thing?

The people who protested are anti-fascist.

AntiFa are anarchists.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
I'm struggling to understand who on this board this meme would be considered offensive or challenging to.

There are a number of people I don't see eye to eye with, but I don't think any would side with the racists this meme is mocking. Thus far, only you and the Captain have raised an objection, and he is a free speech above all kind of guy, so I imagine it was a personal beef with OAW that prompted his post.

Not sure what your issue is. I think it's ok to have a chuckle at the expense of Nazis.
Did you mean to quote me?

It's because image macros do nothing to raise the level of discourse and the only people who think they're great are people that would have agreed with the sentiment in the first place. They're as dumb as having political bumper stickers on your car and seem to only be used by people that can't form coherent arguments with words.

Aside from that, as soon as you say, "haha, now YOU guys are the cucks!" you reinforce their terminology and solidify the idea that A) being a cuck is a bad thing, B) we should care about who is and who isn't a cuck. It validates everything they care about, instead of elevating the conversation to something that matters.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Not at all what you said. Your statement was unequivocal. You didn't make any qualifications about which Nazi's were bad. You simply stated Nazi's only use bad words. Historically Nazi's use a lot more than just bad words given half a chance.
I was inferring (unfortunately) to our nazis. Geez.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 02:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Could any of our resident right-leaning members who keep accusing those of us more left-leaning people of excusing or glossing over the violence and misdeeds by some of the counter-protesters point to where we are doing this?
http://www.dailywire.com/news/19800/...o-hank-berrien
https://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/0...-you-nauseous/

https://www.reddit.com/r/CringeAnarc...pare_real_ww2/

I have about 100 more links if you want them.
Or could I ask by a show of virtual hands who on the left feels the violence of Antfi was justified? Because all I keep reading is everyone saying it wasn't ok.
Considering WaragainstSleep just compared Antifa to the US Military on D-Day, I am absolutely astounded that you would ask this.


So unless I'm missing something, you can stop throwing that against the wall to see if it sticks.
Yes, you are missing the posts on this very page doing just that. Intentionally? I'm not sure. But don't accuse me of reaching here - it's right in front of you to see.

Our argument is that it is a false equivalence that 'both sides are to blame' as the vast majority of counter protestors were peacefully opposing racism and an abhorrent ideology while the protesters were actual Nazis, KKK members, White Nationalists and garden variety racists.
There is no equivalence, aside condemnation of violence.
( Last edited by Snow-i; Aug 17, 2017 at 02:36 PM. Reason: fixed quotes)
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 02:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I don't think we are all too far away from each other on this issue.

Allow me to attempt to summarize, please let me know if I'm off base here...

CTP and Snow-i are saying that violence is violence, and while the concept of protesting the KKK/Neo-nazis and maybe some stuff getting out of hand is obviously not on the level of the KKK/Neo-nazis themselves, Antifa in particular has a history of violence that should not be ignored. I honestly don't really know or care too much about Antifa, so if this is an accurate summation I guess this is a fair point.
Fair enough. I don't think there's any maybe about this, and you absolutely should know what Antifa's up to because they are making things worse, not better. They are giving the media spotlight to the KKK/neo-nazis exactly what they want and they are driving extremism to the mainstream, to the point that many all over the place are acting as if the violence is justified and/or not worth focusing on. It's an escalation, an entrenching, and an empowerment of the exact groups we should be aimed at undermining.

Yes, very shitty people exist. This should not be news to people. Why empower them via violence and media attention? Ignore the trolls (KKK etc) and they go away - try to play their game and you're giving them exactly what they want.

That being said, can we all agree that there are not "fine people" on the KKK/Neo-nazi side of things, as Trump claimed? Can we agree that whether or not you think Trump's statements are being blown out of proportion, they were very clumsy at best, and have poured gasoline on the flames?
Yes

I hope so, and I hope we can agree that while past presidents may have said things we disagree with, things that were disingenuous, etc. they generally didn't say as much stupid shit as Trump has said so far? I mean, I think most reasonable people with good sense about them would realize that the "fine people" statements (and his press conference in general) were just stupid things to say that not only did not serve in his political interest, but really didn't accomplish any good? I mean, most people are probably not up on their history and awareness of Antifa, but everybody knows the KKK and have heard clips from various people associated with these sort of groups saying repulsive stuff. A smart leader wouldn't touch that shit with a 50 mile pole.
Yes.

If you think this is par for the course with a business man turned politician and don't mind giving him some slack here, can we agree that maybe Trump should get somebody else to talk for him from time to time, and perhaps should spend less time on Twitter? His diplomatic chops are absolutely terrible.
Yes. Agreed.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Aside from that, as soon as you say, "haha, now YOU guys are the cucks!" you reinforce their terminology and solidify the idea that A) being a cuck is a bad thing, B) we should care about who is and who isn't a cuck. It validates everything they care about, instead of elevating the conversation to something that matters.
I suppose I understand where you are coming from. But it's particularly difficult to talk about those who ascribe to this ideology without addressing the things they care about one way or another. Either in agreement, opposition, or just downright mockery.

Why Angry White Men Love Calling People “Cucks” | GQ.com

OAW
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 02:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Uh...
Poland isn't a homogenous state, they aren't multicultural, they don't claim to be, but they do formally denounce fascism and Marxism, which is what I was pointing out.

In fact, I've sort of toyed with the idea that our alt-Right would be happier there, maybe we could talk Poland into taking Richard Spencer and his people. They wouldn't want the real nazis, though, I'm not sure what to (realistically) do about them yet.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 02:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
And again I stand by what I said.
and that's why I said you've become what you dislike most, a racist, and it's sad to see.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 02:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
and that's why I said you've become what you dislike most, a racist, and it's sad to see.
Spoken by someone who clearly doesn't understand what the word "racist" actually means.

OAW
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 02:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Spoken by someone who clearly doesn't understand what the word "racist" actually means.

OAW
Could you define it for us?

I'll be honest, I've skipped over your interactions with Cap because I don't really see either of you saying anything worthwhile. I am just curious, given my past interactions with you on related subjects, how you actually define the term. I am not trying to imply anything at all by asking that.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 03:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Could you define it for us?

I'll be honest, I've skipped over your interactions with Cap because I don't really see either of you saying anything worthwhile. I am just curious, given my past interactions with you on related subjects, how you actually define the term. I am not trying to imply anything at all by asking that.
I'm not the one who needs to define it. The dictionary already does a good job of that.

racism - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

1.1 The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
So again I submit that nothing I said to CTP falls into that category. Nor does it fall into the category of "hate". Or any other nonsense he's been spewing.

Originally Posted by OAW
Ha! There's nothing a white woman can do for me that a black woman can't other than be white. And clearly I'm not impressed by that. Hence why I've never seen any reason to go "playing in the snow." It's just never been worth my time nor the aggravation that would ensue.
OAW
     
Paco500
Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 03:34 PM
 
I thought it was clear from my post, but in rereading it, I suppose it was not 100% clear that I was talking about people on this board. As far as I know, no one posting here wrote anything you linked to or any the the 100 other links you reference. We on the left are not a homogenous block and those of us here are not responsible for what other idiots 'on our side' write. Unless you wish to be lumped together with the alt-right and other idiots 'on your side', I'd cut us some slack.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Considering WaragainstSleep just compared Antifa to the US Military on D-Day, I am absolutely astounded that you would ask this.
I'm not convinced he did. I think he was responding to the accusation that the death of the woman was 100% the fault of AntiFa and there would have been no violence or death if it wasn't for those 'on the left'. This was about assignation of blame, not if the violence was justified.

But I will admit, it was not 100% clear, so let's ask him directly.

W.A.S. - Do you believe the AntiFa people in Charlottesville were justified in using violence against the protesters?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 03:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
So again I submit that nothing I said to CTP falls into that category. Nor does it fall into the category of "hate". Or any other nonsense he's been spewing.
Ha! There's nothing a white woman can do for me that a black woman can't other than be white. And clearly I'm not impressed by that. Hence why I've never seen any reason to go "playing in the snow." It's just never been worth my time nor the aggravation that would ensue.
Right. Nothing racist or bigoted at all.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Paco500
Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 03:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Sure! No need to apologize!

I think the confusion may arise from me (perhaps unexpectedly) being on team left in this situation.

I'm against the Nazis. Team left showed up to protest the Nazis. Since I'm against Nazis, that's the team I'm on. Disagreement over the means of ideal governance isn't going to stop me from locking arms with someone against Nazis.

As someone on team left I'm saying AntiFa worries me more than the Nazis. This because internal threats are worse than external ones. Just look at what internal threats have done to the right. I mean, that's why we have a Nazi problem.

I noted that to the military, a broken supply train is a bigger threat than a horde of Nazis. The broken supply train is a bigger threat even though it takes no moral stance, let alone one calling for genocide.

AntiFa is more dangerous than the Nazis because AntiFa makes the Nazis stronger. Just like the broken supply train makes the Nazis stronger.

Of course, there is a moral element to AntiFa, and I again point to the right to exemplify the dangers of moral corrosion.

I'll also add...

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Stare into the abyss and the abyss stares into you.
Let those who fight monsters take care lest they become monsters themselves.
Ok, I get you. I follow the logic. I'm not sure AntiFa worries me more than the Nazis AT THIS POINT, but I could see them as a potentially greater threat.

I only say this because we have a president who at this point seems to feel beholden to the Nazis. I don't think we have anybody in power at this point who feels beholden to AntiFa.

But I could be wrong. They seem like pretty terrible bastards.
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I'm not the one who needs to define it. The dictionary already does a good job of that.
I wasn't asking for the dictionary definition. I was asking for yours.

So again I submit that nothing I said to CTP falls into that category. Nor does it fall into the category of "hate". Or any other nonsense he's been spewing.
Let me ask you another question then - is it possible in your view for a minority to be racist against white people? If so, what would that look like in your view?

I ask that because a buddy of mine's girlfriend is peurto rican, and constantly talks about how all white people are racist and how hard she's had it (etc etc - she lives in a much nicer apt than I do and makes more money than I do, but in her view I am still racist and privileged). She attributes, in my view, challenges of daily life to racism, when I as a white male go through a lot of those same struggles. Also, she wants to move away from where we live because it is and I directly quote "way too white for me". I generally just shut up about it because I don't want to cause a rift with her and lose my buddy as a result. She's not exactly the kind of person that can separate politics from friendship.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Ok, I get you. I follow the logic. I'm not sure AntiFa worries me more than the Nazis AT THIS POINT, but I could see them as a potentially greater threat.

I only say this because we have a president who at this point seems to feel beholden to the Nazis. I don't think we have anybody in power at this point who feels beholden to AntiFa.

But I could be wrong. They seem like pretty terrible bastards.
I'm more worried about AntiFa because I don't see the problem manifesting in the same way. It would take a long time for AntiFa to wreck the left the way Nazis have wrecked the right, and let's be honest here... this would require organization, which isn't the anarchists strong suit.

What I'm worried about is the optics of AntiFa are so bad, they drive people away from the left, and Christ on a cracker... Trump will win again.

That's why they're dangerous.
     
Waragainstsleep
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Considering WaragainstSleep just compared Antifa to the US Military on D-Day, I am absolutely astounded that you would ask this.
You know the Americans weren't the only ones there on D-Day right?

I think I need to need to state my position on Antifa. I don't pretend to know much about them, or to have looked into them too thoroughly but the claims that they are violent anarchists seem to come exclusively from right wing echo chamber sources and people who frequent them or at least give them some shred of journalistic credibility. Left wing sources are inclined to gloss over the violence they commit and those two positions are of course consistent with the blades you would expect.

All I know is I don't hear about them running their own events, so the notion they have some political agenda beyond fighting fascists seems baseless to date. As for the violence itself, Its hardly a stretch to imagine that some of them are just there to start a fight. These situations are all powder kegs waiting for a spark so it doesn't take much for them to go off, but that volatility is the fault of the Nazis.

I'm under no illusion that Antifa are blameless and angelic, but when you hear people trying to paint them as worse than Nazis, its laughable and undermines any shred of truth in allegations of wrongdoing against them.

I think almost all of us seem to agree that Nazis in large groups cannot be reasoned with and cannot go unchallenged. It doesn't leave too many options does it?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 04:19 PM
 
Here's an article from The Atlantic.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 04:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I wasn't asking for the dictionary definition. I was asking for yours.
And what I'm telling you is that i don't have a "personal" definition. The dictionary definition works fine.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Let me ask you another question then - is it possible in your view for a minority to be racist against white people? If so, what would that look like in your view?
Absolutely. Based upon the definition of the term it is certainly possible. It's definitely not common but there are those who hold "black supremacist" views.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I ask that because a buddy of mine's girlfriend is peurto rican, and constantly talks about how all white people are racist and how hard she's had it (etc etc - she lives in a much nicer apt than I do and makes more money than I do, but in her view I am still racist and privileged). She attributes, in my view, challenges of daily life to racism, when I as a white male go through a lot of those same struggles. Also, she wants to move away from where we live because it is and I directly quote "way too white for me". I generally just shut up about it because I don't want to cause a rift with her and lose my buddy as a result.
And see that's where things start to run off the rails. Because all too often people start using related terms interchangeably. For instance, when used in the context of "race" ....

prejudice - preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

1.1 Dislike, hostility, or unjust behavior deriving from unfounded opinions.
... is often used synonymously with "racism". But from a denotative standpoint ... or the "literal or primary meaning of the word" ... that simply isn't accurate. Whereas from a connotative standpoint ... or the "idea or feeling that a word invokes" ... there's a much stronger case to be made. So without knowing anything about this particular individual other than what you characterized her statements to be ... I would interpret her comments as expressing frustration about how commonly she encounters white people who are "prejudiced" as opposed to subscribing to some sort of "we are the master race" type of ideology. Follow me?

As far as "white privilege" is concerned there really isn't a commonly accepted dictionary definition of the term. So it comes down to a matter of perspective. So for me personally I don't see it as the presence of advantage in our society on the basis of being "white" ... but instead as the absence of disadvantage in our society on that basis. But it's sort of a glass half-empty vs half-full sort of thing so other people may see it differently. The way I would explain it is that when it comes to the "challenges of daily life" I absolutely agree with you. That's going to impact everyone. But there are "particular challenges" that minorities face routinely in our society that you as a white person will never face. There are "particular challenges" that females face routinely in our society that neither you nor I as males will ever face. So I would just encourage you to not acquiesce to the temptation that so many white males all too often do and start convincing themselves that they know the present and historical experience of non-white males better than they do themselves. Minorities in the US simply are definitely not suffering from some sort of "mass hallucination" in this regard.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Aug 17, 2017 at 05:21 PM. )
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 05:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Right. Nothing racist or bigoted at all.
You have a rather annoying habit of intentionally ignoring anything someone else says that doesn't fit your silly narrative. I'll spell it out for you again ....

Originally Posted by OAW
Yet I'm tripping because I've never thought it was worth the "aggravation" of dealing with what people like that could do to impede my educational, career, financial, etc. growth because they don't like the idea of me being with a white woman? Yeah. Ok.
Newsflash CTP!!!! There are PLENTY of white people in American society who still take issue with black men being romantically involved with white women. They are educators and doctors and lawyers and business executives. Politicians and police officers. Military officers and corporate recruiters. Etc. And not at all hooded Klan members or khaki wearing white dudes carrying Tiki torches. So if you think it's "racist" of me to not want to deal with the "aggravation" of possibly not getting a promotion because an executive at my company was all in his feelings when I brought a white date to the Christmas party ... or because I'd rather not increase my chances of being pulled over by a police officer because I have a white woman in my car .... then by all means please do continue with such foolishness. Perhaps one day you will get it. Just not today.

OAW
     
Paco500
Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
You have a rather annoying habit of intentionally ignoring anything someone else says that doesn't fit your silly narrative. I'll spell it out for you again ....
I'm not sure if I admire your resolve or question your sanity. You are not going to get through to him.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 05:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
I'm not sure if I admire your resolve or question your sanity. You are not going to get through to him.
Probably a bit of both!

OAW
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
You know the Americans weren't the only ones there on D-Day right?
Ok, Allied military forces, including the Canadians and British, and others who were a part of the Normandy invasion? The reason i stated US Military is that's who you depicted in your comparison.


I think I need to need to state my position on Antifa. I don't pretend to know much about them, or to have looked into them too thoroughly but the claims that they are violent anarchists seem to come exclusively from right wing echo chamber sources and people who frequent them or at least give them some shred of journalistic credibility. Left wing sources are inclined to gloss over the violence they commit and those two positions are of course consistent with the blades you would expect.
You really should do some light googling before taking a position. There's plenty of objective information on them just waiting for you to discover.
All I know is I don't hear about them running their own events, so the notion they have some political agenda beyond fighting fascists seems baseless to date. As for the violence itself, Its hardly a stretch to imagine that some of them are just there to start a fight.
They show up to more than just white nationalist rallies. You sure you want to throw your lot in with them?

These situations are all powder kegs waiting for a spark so it doesn't take much for them to go off, but that volatility is the fault of the Nazis.
So in your view, the violence against the Nazi's (and innocent reporters who showed up to cover the event) is justified?

I'm under no illusion that Antifa are blameless and angelic, but when you hear people trying to paint them as worse than Nazis, its laughable and undermines any shred of truth in allegations of wrongdoing against them.
I don't understand the obsession with comparing them to the Nazi's. They can't be bad all on their own?

I think almost all of us seem to agree that Nazis in large groups cannot be reasoned with and cannot go unchallenged. It doesn't leave too many options does it?
So what's your position on Antifa doing what they've done? It's justified? A good thing?

There are plenty of options for dealing with vile scum. Showing up to engage in violent rioting should not be among them.
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2017, 06:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
And what I'm telling you is that i don't have a "personal" definition. The dictionary definition works fine.
Fair nuff

Absolutely. Based upon the definition of the term it is certainly possible. It's definitely not common but there are those who hold "black supremacist" views.
Ok

And see that's where things start to run off the rails. Because all too often people start using related terms interchangeably. For instance, when used in the context of "race" ....
... is often used synonymously with "racism". But from a denotative standpoint ... or the "literal or primary meaning of the word" ... that simply isn't accurate. Whereas from a connotative standpoint ... or the "idea or feeling that a word invokes" ... there's a much stronger case to be made. So without knowing anything about this particular individual other than what you characterized her statements to be ... I would interpret her comments as expressing frustration about how commonly she encounters white people who are "prejudiced" as opposed to subscribing to some sort of "we are the master race" type of ideology. Follow me?
You lose me here.

In my view, she attributes to racism the challenges of daily life, not to any example of prejudice. Things like finding her new high-end apartment in downtown Denver was a struggle because she is not white, and the apartment complex would not allow her to hold the apartment for 60 days until her move in date, only 30 (which is their policy).
As far as "white privilege" is concerned there really isn't a commonly accepted dictionary definition of the term. So it comes down to a matter of perspective. So for me personally I don't see it as the presence of advantage in our society on the basis of being "white" ... but instead as the absence of disadvantage in our society on that basis. But it's sort of a glass half-empty vs half-full sort of thing so other people may see it differently. The way I would explain it is that when it comes to the "challenges of daily life" I absolutely agree with you. That's going to impact everyone. But there are "particular challenges" that minorities face routinely in our society that you as a white person will never face.
Can there not be "particular challenges" that I as a white male face routinely that you or her could never face?
There are "particular challenges" that females face routinely in our society that neither you nor I as males will ever face. So I would just encourage you to not acquiesce to the temptation that so many white males all too often do and start convincing themselves that they know the present and historical experience of non-white males better than they do themselves. Minorities in the US simply are definitely not suffering from some sort of "mass hallucination" in this regard.
If that's the case, how can you possibly know the present or historical experiences of being a white male in today's society? There are several particular challenges I will face that you will never have to. I'm not equating those challenges, just pointing out that your paradigm can and does apply to everybody, not just classical minorities.

I'm not suggesting anyone is hallucinating, or that there isn't still prejudice out there. I'm suggesting that it's narrowminded to attribute anything about behavior or beliefs to skin color - that is inherently prejudiced.

If you truly measure racism by a lack of disadvantage that may or may not have anything to do with your race, you're going to find racism in a whole lot of places where it simply does not exist (and of course, some where it does).

For instance, if one is disadvantaged in the same way a white person is because of some factor - say socio-economical position - you'll attribute to racism a factor that has naught to do with it. Your paradigm ensures that racism is a catch-all for any disadvantage, regardless of the true cause of that disadvantage. I don't see how that view can lead to progress or equal opportunity.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:55 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,