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Charlottesville, Nazis, Antifa, Confederate Statues, and Tea Cozies (Page 9)
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Laminar
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Aug 23, 2017, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I heard a lot of these confederate monuments were put up during Jim Crow laws and just after the turn of the century as reactionary protests against equal rights or desegregation etc
Did you hear that when I posted it in this thread (with sources) last week?

Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
https://www.splcenter.org/sites/defa...itage_splc.pdf

Erection of various monuments to the Confederacy over time:



Notice the two large peaks?

These aren't monuments erected to remind us of our history and built to honor great heroes, they were largely erected when the descendants of slaves had the audacity to believe themselves equal.
     
Laminar
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Aug 23, 2017, 04:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
What exactly is your point then? I am not allowed to condemn left-wring AntiFa because White Nationalists and the KKK are worse? I have to do it in separate posts? Like on a timer?

What are the rules for condemning violent anarchists and white nationalists? Which ones did I break?

W.A.S depicted a comparison between Antifa and the DDay Allied forces. Do you not see the problem with this? Comparing actual the actual Allied heroes with violent anarchist trash?
Here's the deal. When you're dealing with white supremacists, Nazis (neo- or otherwise), and the KKK, you're dealing with hate groups that have been pushed into the shadows for the past 50-100 years. These are groups that feel oppressed and as though they can't preach their views openly without attracting unwanted attention from the kind of awful people that believe drinking fountains shouldn't be designated by skin color.

So these people have spent the past 50-100 years learning to speak in code, be it a wink, and elbow, a knowing glance, or a dog whistle, white supremacists have learn how to talk about black people without saying, "black people," by using terms like, "thug," "welfare queen," "food stamps," or any other term that can technically be dismissed as innocuous while simultaneously signalling a different message to an intended recipient.

Because of this, when Trump says something like:
"We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides. On many sides. It's been going on for a long time in our country."
The white supremacists interpret it as this:
Trump comments were good. He didn’t attack us. He just said the nation should come together. Nothing specific against us.

He said that we need to study why people are so angry, and implied that there was hate … on both sides!

So he implied the antifa are haters.

There was virtually no counter-signaling of us at all.

He said he loves us all.

No condemnation at all,

When asked to condemn, [Trump] just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him.
Do you see what I mean? I understand your desire to wholesale condemn violence as a solution to these problems, and I whole-heartedly share your position.

But because of the way that these hate groups communicate, you can't just say what you mean, everything has to be crafted in a specific way to tiptoe around all of the secret word landmines they've laid.

Each of your statements condemning the white supremacists included something about the violence perpetrated by the other side. The white supremacists see that as a good sign, an approval, or an enabling message, and carry on.

It's not your fault that your condemnations were drawing such ire, you were honestly trying to say what you meant, thought, and felt, but I don't think you saw what your phrasing means in super secret racist code words. It's dumb that we have to care about that, but we do, and the words that we use matter.

Trump seemed to do better a couple of days later (noting the dog-whistle "thug," though):
"Racism is evil -- and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans,"
But then immediately walked it back in a press conference:

What about the fact that they came charging with clubs in their hands swinging clubs? Do they have any problem? I think they do. That was a horrible, horrible day. Wait a minute. I'm not finished. I'm not finished, fake news. That was a horrible day. I will tell you something. I watched that very closely, much more closely than you people watched it. You had a group on one side that was bad. You had a group on the other side that was also very violent. Nobody wants to say that. I'll say it right now. You had a group on the other side that came charging in without a permit, and they were very, very violent.
Again, the words we use matter. I understand what you were trying to say and agree 100% - violence doesn't help anything and only fuels the fire on both sides. I've just been stewing on this for the past few days and kind of figured out why I didn't like your statements, so I thought I'd share.
     
andi*pandi
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Aug 23, 2017, 05:27 PM
 
excellent post. you deserve a tea cozy.

     
Laminar
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Aug 23, 2017, 05:33 PM
 
Can I trade it in for a beer coozie?

     
andi*pandi
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Aug 23, 2017, 05:41 PM
 
Yep, that works.
     
besson3c
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Aug 23, 2017, 05:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
"Why do you talk about Antifa so much?! You're obsessed!"

Because the Left won't talk about them at all. Hell, I'm still waiting for the vast majority of you to even disavow them, in the first place.

No, addressing these people doesn't "de-escalate these issues", bowing down to an outraged mob fixes nothing, because those same people will always be able to find other things to be outraged over (and we'll never be able to suit them regarding anything in the first place). They're professional victims, constantly casting blame on others for their issues. Antifa does it with anyone to the Right of them, BLM does it with white people, white supremacists blame anyone who isn't white, etc. etc.. If you're blaming an entire race or class of people for all your life's woes, thinking they're what's holding you down, you're wrong. It's really that damned simple.

"I feel like discussions about Lincoln and Washington are mostly counter-productive"

Well, I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you. Maybe if ignorant protesters weren't already defacing their statues, and taking sledgehammers to them in an attempt to destroy them, we wouldn't be talking about it? Duh?


I don't think you've been reading carefully.

1) we've all disavowed all violent hate groups. What additional disavowing are you looking for?

2) I didn't say we should address people, I said we should address issues. I'm not even sure how what I wrote is debatable?
     
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Aug 23, 2017, 06:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Did you hear that when I posted it in this thread (with sources) last week?
Actually no, I sometimes space out of threads a bit for a while before dipping back in later. I don't always catch up fully. I saw it in a video clip somewhere but they used a very similar graph to yours so well done.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Aug 23, 2017, 09:43 PM
 
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 24, 2017, 01:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
*deflects and prevaricates*
That's why it's worthless to talk to you.
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besson3c
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Aug 24, 2017, 07:26 AM
 
I propose a drinking game for every time CTP brings up Antifa.
     
Paco500
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Aug 24, 2017, 08:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I propose a drinking game for every time CTP brings up Antifa.
You're gonna need this.

Find a meeting.
     
andi*pandi
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Aug 24, 2017, 10:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That's why it's worthless to talk to you.
I thought his post had merit. I have seen many times people post against Antifa antics, saying they are not right... these are threads you are active in. Did you not see because you had them on block? Otherwise, why are you pretending no one has condemned Antifa?
     
Chongo
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Aug 24, 2017, 11:55 AM
 
When it hurts





When it really hurts.


"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
besson3c
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Aug 24, 2017, 12:00 PM
 
And again, Antifa is a symptom of much larger issues in America. I was proposing that we start finding ways to deal with these root issues, rather than just obsessing over the emotional states of people that are caught up in these issues.

I was not saying that the violent people should not be dealt with. It's just that if these people literally disappeared the problems would not go away. We can clap our hands and consider the job done when black people and other minorities do not find/feel that their life is more difficult because of their race.

Yes, some amount of racism and racial tension is human and to be expected, but issues of race are a much bigger problem in America than they should be. Talk to black Canadians (or any minority group), for example, about how they feel around police officers.

We (Americans) can do better.
     
BadKosh
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Aug 24, 2017, 01:49 PM
 
People confuse race for culture all the time.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 24, 2017, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I thought his post had merit. I have seen many times people post against Antifa antics, saying they are not right... these are threads you are active in. Did you not see because you had them on block? Otherwise, why are you pretending no one has condemned Antifa?
Merit? #1 was patently false, we still have people here who won't denounce Antifa (in fact they support them by making excuses for them, when they aren't trying to steer the conversation from them), and #2 is him deflecting from the point I was making (that people who make a living off being offended aren't going to stop being offended) and then stating "how is what I wrote even debateable?", effectively shutting down the debate with him. Again, how does that have "merit"? What is the value in ever talking with him, esp in the PWL?
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Aug 24, 2017, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Merit? #1 was patently false, we still have people here who won't denounce Antifa (in fact they support them by making excuses for them, when they aren't trying to steer the conversation from them)
I don't denounce them because I'm not convinced they do half of what they are accused of. I don't look into it because even if they are twice as bad as you make out, they still aren't the big problem. Which is also why we steer the conversation away from them, because the real problem is that in 2017 there are still millions of white supremacists living and voting on policy in America.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 24, 2017, 04:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
When it hurts

It's time to really clamp down on these terrorists. This was posted by an Antifa coordinator in San Fran:



Even the SPLC and ADL said the "Patriot Prayer" rally isn't a WN or WS event, just a gathering of Christian conservatives, but Antifa plans on "crushing their skulls". Why? Because to them everyone on the Right is a nazi. Fascism has arrived in the USA, and it's in the guise of anti-fascism.
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Paco500
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Aug 24, 2017, 05:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It's time to really clamp down on these terrorists. This was posted by an Antifa coordinator in San Fran:

Even the SPLC and ADL said the "Patriot Prayer" rally isn't a WN or WS event, just a gathering of Christian conservatives, but Antifa plans on "crushing their skulls". Why? Because to them everyone on the Right is a nazi. Fascism has arrived in the USA, and it's in the guise of anti-fascism.
1. What is your evidence this person is an 'Antifa coordinator'?

2. I think this is a faked tweet. It's a bit of clip art attributed to a guy with clearly left leaning sensibilities, but not only does this tweet not appear on his twitter feed, it doesn't match the tone of the rest of his tweets at all. It's possible it was an anomaly and he deleted it, but given your history of posting fake stuff to make a bad group look even worse, I'm betting it's fake.

Obligatory notice to soothe the Captain's ire:

People behaving committing acts of violence and vandalism in the name of Antifa or other left-wing groups are idiots and I in no way condone their actions. My calling you out on posting items of questionable legitimacy is not a defence of Antfi and/or related groups.

Fanning the flames with lies and nonsense does not help anyone, so stop it.
     
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Aug 24, 2017, 05:31 PM
 
^^ The guy has, since posting that tweet, removed half of the tweets he's written since Charlottesville. Likely he became scared after his tweet went viral. Since I actually screen capped that tweet myself, I don't give a rosy f*** what you think about it. Like WAS you find ways to defend groups like Antifa, even if, unlike him, you do pay lip service to denouncing their violence. You're a vicious individual with a truly nasty temper, I can only imagine what you filter out, given the verbal abuse you DO administer online. You and they are the same type of people, I can see you easily "snapping" and caving someone's head in with a bat, given how you act here.
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besson3c
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Aug 24, 2017, 05:37 PM
 
Drink up guys
     
Paco500
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Aug 24, 2017, 05:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
^^ The guy has, since posting that tweet, removed half of the tweets he's written since Charlottesville. Likely he became scared after his tweet went viral. Since I actually screen capped that tweet myself, I don't give a rosy f*** what you think about it. Like WAS you find ways to defend groups like Antifa, even if, unlike him, you do pay lip service to denouncing their violence. You're a vicious individual with a truly nasty temper, I can only imagine what you filter out, given the verbal abuse you DO administer online. You and they are the same type of people, I can see you easily "snapping" and caving someone's head in with a bat, given how you act here.
And I'm pretty sure you're lying.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 24, 2017, 05:48 PM
 
^^I'm pretty sure whatever you think is worth less than squat.
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Paco500
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Aug 24, 2017, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Drink up guys
I'd love to play, but I have to work tomorrow and I'm simply not a binge drinker. You're on your own I'm afraid- remember to hydrate and for heaven's sake DON'T GET BEHIND THE WHEEL!
     
andi*pandi
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Aug 24, 2017, 06:02 PM
 
I can go back to page 1 and see people condemning violence. It's right there, so saying that no one is condemning it is plain not true. Whether or not they have phrased it the way you'd like them to, it's still there.

Are you posting drunk diatribes for fun again?
     
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Aug 24, 2017, 10:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Fascism has arrived in the USA, and it's in the guise of anti-fascism.
Newsflash: Fascism has been in the USA since the start. In the guise of fascism, white supremacism and neo-naziism. So really well disguised.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Since I actually screen capped that tweet myself, I don't give a rosy f*** what you think about it.
Pity you don't have any credibility for being objective on the subject isn't it?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Like WAS you find ways to defend groups like Antifa, even if, unlike him, you do pay lip service to denouncing their violence.
I'll denounce them when I'm convinced what they are accused of is true and was committed by organised anti-fascists, not individual troublemakers or right wingers trying to frame them.
Violent or not, they are a symptom of a much nastier underlying condition. Treat the cause, the symptom goes away. You're fixating on the symptom as you often tend to do so we are forced to conclude that you are in favour of the underlying condition. This does not make you a good person. Sorry about that.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You're a vicious individual with a truly nasty temper, I can only imagine what you filter out, given the verbal abuse you DO administer online. You and they are the same type of people, I can see you easily "snapping" and caving someone's head in with a bat, given how you act here.
You love to claim that we are vicious and violent and hateful while you are eternally peaceful and full of love yet you take the side of the oppressive majority almost every time. You defend racist and corrupt cops who shoot unarmed kids for nothing more than daring to disrespect their authority. But you side with the guys flouting authority when they hijack government property and force a siege over land they tried to steal. You deflect from killer cops, and from Nazis by attacking the reactionary organisations that exist to bring attention to injustices being perpetrated by those empowered establishment organisations. You've sided with the religious right abusing their government jobs to deprive homosexuals of their rights. You side with MRAs and the alt-right against the big mean feminists, SJWs and super dangerous snowflakes but fail to notice that MRAs and white supremacists are the biggest snowflakes around. They have to gang up, arm themselves and march around towns because they are so terrified of someone with darker skin having the same opportunities in life that they do. We've even seen you lean against rape victims who you seem to think are mostly liars. (This should put a big smile on your face btw: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41037826)

How much more vicious can someone be than a person who always sides against the victims?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
besson3c
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Aug 24, 2017, 10:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Merit? #1 was patently false, we still have people here who won't denounce Antifa (in fact they support them by making excuses for them, when they aren't trying to steer the conversation from them), and #2 is him deflecting from the point I was making (that people who make a living off being offended aren't going to stop being offended) and then stating "how is what I wrote even debateable?", effectively shutting down the debate with him. Again, how does that have "merit"? What is the value in ever talking with him, esp in the PWL?
There is a disconnect here.

#1: who do you think hasn't denounced Antifa, or is making excuses for them? Edit: Waragainstsleep? A person, not people. Anybody else?
#2: What do you think my point was, in your words?
     
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Aug 24, 2017, 11:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
so saying that no one is condemning it is plain not true.
Since I didn't say "no one", I'm not sure what you're even talking about. We have had people denounce Antifa and their tactics, we've had some who won't (presumably because they don't mind that they're violent, or they may even like that they are).

Are you posting drunk diatribes for fun again?
Are you? You seem to make less sense, and are becoming less rational, with every passing month. Seriously, what was that? Claiming I said "no one is condemning" Antifa, when it's clear I didn't say such a thing?
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Aug 24, 2017, 11:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Did you hear that when I posted it in this thread (with sources) last week?
That graph pretty much seals it for me.

(I also missed it when you first posted it)
     
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Aug 25, 2017, 01:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
That graph pretty much seals it for me.

(I also missed it when you first posted it)
Except there are >2,000 monuments to former Confederate soldiers and leaders, counting grave busts and the like (we have 47 in my county, and a school named after a former Confederate soldier*), and that graph only represents a tiny fraction of all those, and much worse, completely strips their context.

One, there's not enough museum space to keep them all, and Two, we all know they don't actually want to keep them in the first place, so why are we kidding ourselves, here?

Can you imagine the pure hate that would radiate from the Left if someone actually recommends that new museums be built solely to house Confederate statues, effectively telling the history of the Confederacy? Nah, let's be real, they just want to grind them all into powder and be done with them, erasing the material evidence of that era. (Because, if you don't see it, it didn't happen, right?) Centuries from now (or even sooner) dooming us to repeat the mistakes of the past, merely because some people are offended when they see something that didn't even bother them until very recently, anyway. "Oh hey, that statue really upsets me. I know I've walked by it 10,000 times, never giving it much thought, despite always knowing who it represents, now I'm obliged to find it really offensive!" *shakes fist*

This situation requires a great deal more nuance and careful handling than what we're seeing now, and our cultural history requires more consideration than what is offered by idiots with sledgehammers. However, given our current trend, I don't expect better, the only thing that matters is who can throw the larger tantrum, and no one screams louder than those who grandstand in moral outrage.


*Sidney Lanier was not only a great American poet, author, and musician, he'd also served as a non-commissioned officer in the Confederate army. He was never a slave owner and his brief military career, as a blockade runner, was inconsequential compared to his contributions to society after the war. Those contributions and achievements are why he is memorialized, not his stint as a Confederate sailor, and to ignorantly strip him so bare is what's truly offensive.
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Aug 25, 2017, 06:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Except there are >2,000 monuments to former Confederate soldiers and leaders, counting grave busts and the like (we have 47 in my county, and a school named after a former Confederate soldier*), and that graph only represents a tiny fraction of all those, and much worse, completely strips their context.

One, there's not enough museum space to keep them all, and Two, we all know they don't actually want to keep them in the first place, so why are we kidding ourselves, here?
Not all monuments have the same cultural significance, and which of the monuments will be relocated to a museum and which will be kept should be decided locally on a case-by-case basis.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Nah, let's be real, they just want to grind them all into powder and be done with them, erasing the material evidence of that era. (Because, if you don't see it, it didn't happen, right?)
In many cases, the statues have not been destroyed after they were removed, but relocated to museums already. Why do you insist on making up an issue that doesn't exist? Sure seems like you just ending up winding yourself up with imagined slights here.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Centuries from now (or even sooner) dooming us to repeat the mistakes of the past, [...]
You avoid mistakes of the past by processing the past and putting it in the proper context. Shrouding the history of the South in a myth is the exact opposite of that. You have to teach when reconstruction failed and when exactly what monument was built and for what reason. The US still hasn't completely overcome its history of slavery and racism, and teaching history properly in a nuanced way is essential.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
[...] merely because some people are offended when they see something that didn't even bother them until very recently, anyway.
If the local population was ignorant about their own history until recently, then it makes sense that only after realizing what these monuments and names of parks meant to, say, Black Southerners they changed their mind. Plus, I don't think all parts of the Southern population (or Northerners) share the view that “those memorials didn't really bother anyone”. In any case, it is not an argument for keeping them.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
*Sidney Lanier was not only a great American poet, author, and musician, he'd also served as a non-commissioned officer in the Confederate army. He was never a slave owner and his brief military career, as a blockade runner, was inconsequential compared to his contributions to society after the war. Those contributions and achievements are why he is memorialized, not his stint as a Confederate sailor, and to ignorantly strip him so bare is what's truly offensive.
I'm sure that among the thousands of statues there are boundary cases where someone whose main contributions to America had nothing to do with the Civil War. I don't know the particular backstory of Lanier, so I can't judge the nuances here. But when it comes to the stupid and non-sensical argument that removing statues of a traitorous general will lead to the removal of monuments to George Washington and the Founding Fathers, the differences are obvious: What was the main contribution that everyone thinks of first?
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Aug 25, 2017, 07:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Can you imagine the pure hate that would radiate from the Left if someone actually recommends that new museums be built solely to house Confederate statues, effectively telling the history of the Confederacy?
Yeah, I can hardly move for lefties fuming about the existence of the Holocaust Museum as well. You're rapidly becoming a walking facepalm.




Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Nah, let's be real, they just want to grind them all into powder and be done with them, erasing the material evidence of that era.
Oops! There you go again deciding what other people really think or want, reading their minds like I'm not allowed to.


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Centuries from now (or even sooner) dooming us to repeat the mistakes of the past,
Centuries from now? Your country has elected a white supremacist warmonger who thinks and behaves like a typical insecure dictator. You've basically elected Eric Cartman and now you have streets full of Nazis. So I'd say sooner was right.


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
merely because some people are offended when they see something that didn't even bother them until very recently, anyway. "Oh hey, that statue really upsets me. I know I've walked by it 10,000 times, never giving it much thought, despite always knowing who it represents, now I'm obliged to find it really offensive!" *shakes fist* :roll eyes:
Yeah its not because they worry about another civil war or something like that. They just like telling you off for living your life. Maybe they didn't complain until recently because they didn't think it would do any good.


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
This situation requires a great deal more nuance and careful handling than what we're seeing now, and our cultural history requires more consideration than what is offered by idiots with sledgehammers. However, given our current trend, I don't expect better, the only thing that matters is who can throw the larger tantrum, and no one screams louder than those who grandstand in moral outrage.
He said, grandstanding in moral outrage. While continuing to defend the racist, pro-slavery losing faction of a centuries old civil war.


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
*Sidney Lanier was not only a great American poet, author, and musician, he'd also served as a non-commissioned officer in the Confederate army. He was never a slave owner and his brief military career, as a blockade runner, was inconsequential compared to his contributions to society after the war. Those contributions and achievements are why he is memorialized, not his stint as a Confederate sailor, and to ignorantly strip him so bare is what's truly offensive.
This actually sounds reasonable. The American left is increasingly taking things too far. Not to the point you need to support Nazis or fascists instead but still.
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BadKosh
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Aug 25, 2017, 09:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Oops! There you go again deciding what other people really think or want, reading their minds like I'm not allowed to.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Your country has elected a white supremacist warmonger who thinks and behaves like a typical insecure dictator. You've basically elected Eric Cartman and now you have streets full of Nazis. So I'd say sooner was right.
Go back and read your hypocritical words. Admonishing someone about reading minds and a moment later you're doing the same. You must have the attention span of a goldfish.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 25, 2017, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Not all monuments have the same cultural significance, and which of the monuments will be relocated to a museum and which will be kept should be decided locally on a case-by-case basis.
Ideally, yes, but isn't that what we're discussing, that they aren't DOING THIS?

In many cases, the statues have not been destroyed after they were removed, but relocated to museums already. Why do you insist on making up an issue that doesn't exist? Sure seems like you just ending up winding yourself up with imagined slights here.
WTF? I've seen where a grand total of 4 monuments have been moved, that I can find in the news, ~15 destroyed, and the rest sort of held in the balance. Why make something up like that? I'm pissed because these people were important, in the vast majority of cases they were much more culturally significant than mere "confederate soldiers".

If the local population was ignorant about their own history until recently, then it makes sense that only after realizing what these monuments and names of parks meant to, say, Black Southerners they changed their mind. Plus, I don't think all parts of the Southern population (or Northerners) share the view that “those memorials didn't really bother anyone”. In any case, it is not an argument for keeping them.
So, ignorance is a great reason to get rid of them? Wonderful. We shouldn't move or rename a damned thing until after at least a year, when people calm down. Spur of the moment decisions are BS.

I'm sure that among the thousands of statues there are boundary cases where someone whose main contributions to America had nothing to do with the Civil War.
No, it's almost ALL of these cases. They were great writers, doctors, statesmen, builders, explorers, they were some of the greatest people of their age, and most never owned a slave in the first place, and their stint in the confederate military was barely more than a blip in their lives.

But when it comes to the stupid and non-sensical argument that removing statues of a traitorous general
You don't even understand the US Civil War in the first place, so why comment on it?
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Aug 25, 2017, 10:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Go back and read your hypocritical words. Admonishing someone about reading minds and a moment later you're doing the same. You must have the attention span of a goldfish.
You must not understand simple concepts. I think you can tell how some people think. CTP constantly admonishes me for doing so, then does it himself. I'm not the hypocrite in this instance.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 25, 2017, 10:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
*replying to WAS*
I see that he's still trying to reply to my posts, wasting his time. I have nothing to say to people who won't denounce terrorism.
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Aug 25, 2017, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
You must not understand simple concepts. I think you can tell how some people think. CTP constantly admonishes me for doing so, then does it himself. I'm not the hypocrite in this instance.
Your 'logic' is pathetic! YOU ARE STILL A HYPOCRITE! Just because someone else is claimed to be one means nothing.
     
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Aug 25, 2017, 02:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Since I didn't say "no one", I'm not sure what you're even talking about. We have had people denounce Antifa and their tactics, we've had some who won't (presumably because they don't mind that they're violent, or they may even like that they are).
...
Are you? You seem to make less sense, and are becoming less rational, with every passing month. Seriously, what was that? Claiming I said "no one is condemning" Antifa, when it's clear I didn't say such a thing?
Perhaps you need to work on being clearer. True, you did not use the exact word "no one", so sorry my memory of this 9-page thread was not exact. However, the overall message you are trying to put across is not just one member, but the majority are ignoring Antifa.

"Why do you talk about Antifa so much?! You're obsessed!"

Because the Left won't talk about them at all. Hell, I'm still waiting for the vast majority of you to even disavow them, in the first place.
The left won't talk about them "at all." What's that mean? No one is talking.

I'm still amazed over supposed liberals defending Antifa, even to the point of deliberately trying to shield them from just angry comments. How many times do people on the Right need to disavow WS and WN groups? It's about time you disavowed the bad actors on the Left a few times, as well.
Here you imply that "it's about time" they were disavowed. What's that really mean? "No one has yet."

When you use "you" did you mean WAS, or "The Left" as a whole group?

This is the second time in recent history you have tried to gaslight me when I've gently disagreed with you. In fact, it's almost a copy and paste duplicate of the last time. It's distasteful deflection. I've seen you do it to others. This happened to be a post of Besson's that seemed genuine, not a gag, and worthy of conversation.

I brought up drunk posting because you bragged about trolling us all with drunk posting last week. Did you think that would not damage your credibility?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 25, 2017, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Perhaps you need to work on being clearer. True, you did not use the exact word "no one", so sorry my memory of this 9-page thread was not exact. However, the overall message you are trying to put across is not just one member, but the majority are ignoring Antifa.
The majority have disavowed violence, not Antifa, despite Antifa's explicit use of violence at every demonstration. So far only a few have specifically said they stand against them.

The left won't talk about them "at all." What's that mean? No one is talking.
Indeed, the only times they've mentioned by the Left-wing media is when they were sickeningly praised as heroes and compared to the brave men who stormed the beaches of Normandy on D-day.

Here you imply that "it's about time" they were disavowed. What's that really mean? "No one has yet."

When you use "you" did you mean WAS, or "The Left" as a whole group?
That's not what that means, you're incorrect. After Charlottesville the Right was pummeled with demands to disavow white supremacy, yet few were calling the Left out on the other hate group that was causing mayhem that day (and every other time they've shown up to protest).

It was a general "you".

This is the second time in recent history you have tried to gaslight me when I've gently disagreed with you. In fact, it's almost a copy and paste duplicate of the last time. It's distasteful deflection. I've seen you do it to others. This happened to be a post of Besson's that seemed genuine, not a gag, and worthy of conversation.
That's not "gas-lighting" and it's not deflection. There was nothing worthy about the post in question; 1) was incorrect, a clear act of pravaracation, and 2) was nothing but deflection and an attempt to close the conversation.

I brought up drunk posting because you bragged about trolling us all with drunk posting last week. Did you think that would not damage your credibility?
That was a trap for one specific poster, to show how abusive he can be (which worked). In fact, it was so bad he derailed 3 different threads in one afternoon, with all the personal attacks and name-calling.
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Aug 25, 2017, 04:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Your 'logic' is pathetic! YOU ARE STILL A HYPOCRITE! Just because someone else is claimed to be one means nothing.
Lets try again shall we? I do something, CTP tells me repeatedly I shouldn't do that, then does it himself repeatedly. How does that make me a hypocrite?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 25, 2017, 08:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Ideally, yes, but isn't that what we're discussing, that they aren't DOING THIS?
Who is “they”? And yes, cities such as Lexington have had longer efforts to remove Confederate monuments that are now being accelerated.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
WTF? I've seen where a grand total of 4 monuments have been moved, that I can find in the news, [...]
Re-read my post carefully: I wrote that you are making up the fact that people want to erase history, not the fact that statues are taken down and some of them destroyed. The opposite is the case, you remove these statues because you are more aware of your own history.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
So, ignorance is a great reason to get rid of them? Wonderful. We shouldn't move or rename a damned thing until after at least a year, when people calm down. Spur of the moment decisions are BS.
No, ignorance is why they were kept up. It is why in e. g. Lexington you find two Confederate statues on what used to be one of the biggest slave markets of the South — without any monument to the slave market and the suffering of the Black slaves. That is ignorance.

Furthermore, not all of these decisions were spur of the moment, Lexington is one example where this was years in the making.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
No, it's almost ALL of these cases. They were great writers, doctors, statesmen, builders, explorers, they were some of the greatest people of their age, and most never owned a slave in the first place, and their stint in the confederate military was barely more than a blip in their lives.
I don't believe this to be true in the large majority of the cases, but if it were up to me, I didn't have to make that case-by-case determination: this is something communities should decide on their own. If they believe that someone no longer deserves a statue, they should take it down, decide whether or not to put it in a museum and what to do with it.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You don't even understand the US Civil War in the first place, so why comment on it?
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Aug 26, 2017, 08:45 AM
 
Well this is entirely unsurprising:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41036631
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Aug 26, 2017, 09:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Well this is entirely unsurprising:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41036631
It wasn't a smear campaign- it was just a fake PhD drunk posting and/or* a crafty bamboozle designed to highlight how abusive I am.

*exact excuse depends on level of community recognition that said fake PhD is again completely full of shit.
     
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Aug 27, 2017, 11:48 PM
 
More antifa violence at Berkeley.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.d141b6148772
Berkeley police chief Andrew Greenwood defended how police handled the protest, saying they made a strategic decision to let the anarchists enter to avoid more violence.

Greenwood said “the potential use of force became very problematic” given the thousands of peaceful protesters in the park. Once anarchists arrived, it was clear there would not be dueling protests between left and right so he ordered his officers out of the park and allowed the anarchists to march in.

"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Aug 28, 2017, 09:47 AM
 
Besson spouting morals ! What a hoot!
     
Chongo
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Aug 28, 2017, 10:09 AM
 
Tear It Down! (and burn the entire series while we're at it)
"The Statue"
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Laminar
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Aug 28, 2017, 12:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It's time to really clamp down on these terrorists. This was posted by an Antifa coordinator in San Fran:

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Since I actually screen capped that tweet myself, I don't give a rosy f*** what you think about it.
Weird that you screen capped the tweet yourself, but decided to share the cap that InfoWars and Prison Planet are using.

Remind me - are you one of those people that is concerned with the accuracy of the news sources they consume?
     
Chongo
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Aug 28, 2017, 01:26 PM
 
This.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Aug 28, 2017, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
More antifa violence at Berkeley.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.d141b6148772



I don't want to condone any violence, but the violence here is a bit feeble. The reporter dropped a camera, big whoop. The guy getting beaten by half a dozen others looks like he would have walked away with a few scratches and bruises and a torn shirt, not broken bones and internal bleeding. And no-one drove a car into a crowd and killed anyone, so the sides are very much incomparable, especially when the worse offender is calling for genocidal ethnic cleansing.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
BadKosh
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Aug 28, 2017, 01:40 PM
 
Its OK for him to have his say. FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Ever heard of the concept? That you or anyone else approves of their message is not up for discussion. They have a right to say it. The AntiFa buffoons are the ones who are infringing on others rights. They should be arrested. This smells like Obama, behind the scenes is pulling a "Race Card Deluxe" with Soros funding them.
     
 
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