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I'm Coming Out - I Want the World to Know: Brave, or No? (Page 2)
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subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 03:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Can you think of a gentler way to try to change it? You need an audience or you're wasting your time.
I have yet to experience a homosexual go "if only it wasn't so hard to find homophobes to be gay in front of".
     
besson3c
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Sep 10, 2017, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'll trot out the same argument I always do when this comes up.

Secular humanism's great failure is it hasn't come up with a with a way (other than communism) for people to live in the middle of ****ing nowhere and make food for all of our enlightened asses in the city.

Religion is what keeps it together, and it's why we get to eat.
It keeps some things together and destroys some other things at the same time, sometimes simultaneously.
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
It keeps some things together and destroys some other things at the same time, sometimes simultaneously.
I'm too self-interested to give up food.
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 04:02 PM
 
To be fair to secular humanism, in another decade or two it'll have finally come up with a solution.

Replace rural America with robots and then everyone gets to live in cosmopolitan utopia.
     
Chongo
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Sep 10, 2017, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I get the vibe Mormons find gay marriage particularly galling.

It might be related to them dropping polygamy against their will, though I admit I'm no expert, and the connection dawned on me mere moments ago.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Maybe if they were allowed to practice gay polygamous marriage they'd be cool with it?
Mormons are all about making babies, even mor than Catholics. Maybe you could convince the LDS quorum of 12 to invest in IVG labs and artificial wombs so same sex plurals can have the gentetic offspring like the opposite sex plurals have.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
besson3c
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Sep 10, 2017, 08:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm too self-interested to give up food.
So if rural America was atheist or some religion that didn't have terribly strong anti-gay beliefs our food supply would be cut off?

I'm not really sure what you are getting at here.
     
besson3c
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Sep 10, 2017, 08:27 PM
 
Do religious cow farmers bless the cows we eat to make them holy?
     
besson3c
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Sep 10, 2017, 08:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Mormons are all about making babies, even mor than Catholics. Maybe you could convince the LDS quorum of 12 to invest in IVG labs and artificial wombs so same sex plurals can have the gentetic offspring like the opposite sex plurals have.

Some day I would like to circle back to the questions I have about why catholics don't like contraceptives, because that still doesn't make any sense to me logically.
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 08:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So if rural America was atheist or some religion that didn't have terribly strong anti-gay beliefs our food supply would be cut off?

I'm not really sure what you are getting at here.
Whatever it is, it has to convince the residents to stay in BFE rather than abandon it for the city.

The brand of religion we have in rural America centers on family, community, and sacrifice, which are all good reasons to stay.

Atheism may be able to come up with a reason, but it's not going to be those reasons. It has to find another. So far, atheism's best solution to the problem is communism, but as I noted, robots are a dark horse.

The gay thing isn't a requirement. A religion which centered on the same three pillars but thinks gays are swell would do fine.
     
besson3c
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Sep 10, 2017, 08:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Whatever it is, it has to convince the residents to stay in BFE rather than abandon it for the city.

The brand of religion we have in rural America centers on family, community, and sacrifice, which are all good reasons to stay.

Atheism may be able to come up with a reason, but it's not going to be those reasons. It has to find another. So far, atheism's best solution to the problem is communism, but as I noted, robots are a dark horse.

The gay thing isn't a requirement. A religion which centered on the same three pillars but thinks gays are swell would do fine.

So religion makes people stay in rural areas, otherwise they would flock to the cities? Is that the gist of your argument?
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 08:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Do religious cow farmers bless the cows we eat to make them holy?
My great uncle was (is... he's dead, I don't know how that works) a priest. He would do Easter mass at the table and bless the beef.

We'd put it in bascht (not borscht), which is basically dairy mold soup.

Good times.
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 08:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So religion makes people stay in rural areas, otherwise they would flock to the cities? Is that the gist of your argument?
Specifically, it greatly aids in keeping tiny communities coherent and stable in the face of greater opportunities elsewhere.
     
besson3c
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Sep 10, 2017, 09:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Specifically, it greatly aids in keeping tiny communities coherent and stable in the face of greater opportunities elsewhere.
I think that is inherent to being a species that is most efficient and most emotionally comforted by others, and therefore seeks to develop and nurture communities. A hypothetical atheist community would feel the bonds of a community the exact same way a religious community would, because this is part of being human.

Your counterpoint might be that church is a weekly event that helps communities reconnect and further their bonds, and I'd agree with that, but is this a religious or diversity vs. homogeneity thing? It can obviously be very difficult being gay, getting some pregnant out of wedlock, etc. in a tight knit small religious community where everybody knows each other's names and the family affairs.

In other words, if religion didn't exist, would these weekly church meetings be replaced by something else, or would these communities collapse?

I think you're on to something, but you are going too far in painting a direct line between religion in these communities and our food supply. Religion is a factor, but one of many.
     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Sep 10, 2017, 09:38 PM
 
Farmers have always co-operated to varying degrees though. The Amish help their neighbours build barns, medieval tenant farmers used to barter things with each other to fill the gaps in their own stores, etc etc. Communities come together to help each other out and become close by virtue of this and their limited size. I guess religion helps reinforce some of this but I don't see it as essential by any means.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 09:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think that is inherent to being a species that is most efficient and most emotionally comforted by others, and therefore seeks to develop and nurture communities. A hypothetical atheist community would feel the bonds of a community the exact same way a religious community would, because this is part of being human.

Your counterpoint might be that church is a weekly event that helps communities reconnect and further their bonds, and I'd agree with that, but is this a religious or diversity vs. homogeneity thing? It can obviously be very difficult being gay, getting some pregnant out of wedlock, etc. in a tight knit small religious community where everybody knows each other's names and the family affairs.

In other words, if religion didn't exist, would these weekly church meetings be replaced by something else, or would these communities collapse?

I think you're on to something, but you are going too far in painting a direct line between religion in these communities and our food supply. Religion is a factor, but one of many.
We're social animals, but we're also very self-centered. Rural American religion compounds the former and sets itself in direct opposition to the latter.

Atheism does neither. It's not as well suited to the problem.

The best tool in the atheist's kit bag is government, but government approaches to this problem get ugly real quick.

Yes, homogeneity plays a role, and I'm stating things in such absolute terms to make the point clear.

Here's the takeaway... when rural America clings to their God, it's not because they're [unsavory adjective]. It maintains its strength here, unlike in other developed countries, for a reason.
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 09:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Farmers have always co-operated to varying degrees though. The Amish help their neighbours build barns, medieval tenant farmers used to barter things with each other to fill the gaps in their own stores, etc etc. Communities come together to help each other out and become close by virtue of this and their limited size. I guess religion helps reinforce some of this but I don't see it as essential by any means.
Medieval tenant farmers couldn't leave.

The Amish are an example of religion being responsible for an insanely strong community, no?
     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Sep 11, 2017, 06:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Medieval tenant farmers couldn't leave.

The Amish are an example of religion being responsible for an insanely strong community, no?
How much of it requires religion though? Gatherings for worship and festivals and a certain amount of organisational stuff (arguably you could call that part government). They need each others help and co-operation to build structures, they need each other to marry their kids into other families which means most of them have close familial ties anyway, if someone is short of seeds or a certain crops or whatever, they either barter with something they do have or the community clubs together to donate whats needed. It all acts as glue to keep a community close together.

We have small village communities here. They aren't isolated the way your farmers are, but we have local parish councils that have meetings and make local decisions on planning, there are fetes and festivals (admittedly the church runs some but it could be the school or the council), the locals hire out the village hall for parties, local pubs run other nights and events, scout groups, preschool childcare, and various other things that all serve keep things more intimate and interconnected than they are in cities.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 11, 2017, 06:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
How much of it requires religion though?
Are there communities which behave even glancingly like the Amish without religion?

As noted, farmers in the U.K. aren't as isolated as farmers in the U.S.

Excepting Russia, nowhere in Europe is isolated the way rural America is. Scandinavia appears to have areas like that at first blush, but isn't nearly as dependent on the interior to eat. They have fish.
( Last edited by subego; Sep 11, 2017 at 07:04 AM. )
     
besson3c
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Sep 11, 2017, 08:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Here's the takeaway... when rural America clings to their God, it's not because they're [unsavory adjective]. It maintains its strength here, unlike in other developed countries, for a reason.

I disagree.

Religion has generally been on the decline for years, rural America is stronger than ever. There are numerous factors contributing to this, the direct line you are painting does not work.
     
subego
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Sep 11, 2017, 08:41 AM
 
Wat

I'm comparing the U.S. to the rest of the developed world.

Rural America is broke and ****ing hooked on pills.
     
besson3c
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Sep 11, 2017, 08:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Wat

I'm comparing the U.S. to the rest of the developed world.

Rural America is broke and ****ing hooked on pills.

Now I'm completely lost. Your original argument had to do with our food supply.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 11, 2017, 10:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This specific tangent is about her bringing up marriage.

I agree it's unlikely her intent was to castigate the church, and for me, this is going to be the key consideration as to whether I assess blame, but despite her lack of intent, by bringing up marriage, that's what she did.
Why do you want to assign blame for someone to speak her mind? She didn't say this to offend people, she would like to stay within her community and have her community accept her. Otherwise she could have just stayed silent and left.
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OreoCookie
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Sep 11, 2017, 10:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'll trot out the same argument I always do when this comes up.

Secular humanism's great failure is it hasn't come up with a with a way (other than communism) for people to live in the middle of ****ing nowhere and make food for all of our enlightened asses in the city.

Religion is what keeps it together, and it's why we get to eat.
What does this have to do with “secular humanism”? The girl is a lesbian mormon.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
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Sep 11, 2017, 01:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Why do you want to assign blame for someone to speak her mind? She didn't say this to offend people, she would like to stay within her community and have her community accept her. Otherwise she could have just stayed silent and left.
I don't think it's arguable there are various ways one can speak their mind, and not all of them are appropriate.

If she had gone in with the intent to do so in an inappropriate manner, I would assign blame to her for it. She didn't, so I'm not.
     
subego
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Sep 11, 2017, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
What does this have to do with “secular humanism”? The girl is a lesbian mormon.
It was in response to this:

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think coming out in a public setting like this is great. It shouldn't matter, but it does, so until it really doesn't matter we should encourage comfort in doing so and providing as much support as possible.

I'm sorry religious people this might offend, but your condemnation of homosexuality is straight up obsolete, backwards, and wrong in my view. The funny thing to me is, this condemnation hurts religion more than it helps it. As science continues to improve, evolve, and is able to understand more and more of the universe it could be seen as a complete alternative to religion since it explains more about a condition that many people are certain they were born with more than an ancient text that says that they are sinners for being who and what they are.
Which is a secular humanist take on the failings of religion.
     
Laminar
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Sep 11, 2017, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
My own assumptions, which are valuable to me. I certainly have not recently observed numerous preteens to get a statistically valid sample size. Have not surveyed them about sex orientation & opinions, nor kept methodical notes on their responses.
But in a world where this sort of scientific information is available, why bring up our own limited, flawed, biased observations?
     
subego
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Sep 11, 2017, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
But in a world where this sort of scientific information is available, why bring up our own limited, flawed, biased observations?
Cursory Google nets me:

"6% of self-identified gay or bisexual women knew that they were gay or bisexual in junior high school, and 11% knew in grade school."

So, she's a bit of an outlier.
     
Chongo
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Sep 11, 2017, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Some day I would like to circle back to the questions I have about why catholics don't like contraceptives, because that still doesn't make any sense to me logically.
"Be fruitful and multiply"
Contraceptives prevent this from occurring.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm#1646
* The openness to fertility

1652 "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."162

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: "It is not good that man should be alone," and "from the beginning [he] made them male and female"; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: "Be fruitful and multiply." Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.163
1653 The fruitfulness of conjugal love extends to the fruits of the moral, spiritual, and supernatural life that parents hand on to their children by education. Parents are the principal and first educators of their children.164 In this sense the fundamental task of marriage and family is to be at the service of life.165

1654 Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life full of meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
subego
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Sep 11, 2017, 01:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Now I'm completely lost. Your original argument had to do with our food supply.
I made the statement rural America clings to religion for a reason.

That reason is to maintain the stability of their communities, with which the stability of our (secular, urban) communities depend.

The reason given this is incorrect is because religion is in decline and rural America is stronger than ever.

To the latter I claim rural America is a ****ing horror show of unemployment and drug addiction. I took a swing at the former, but I'll (re)admit I find the claim baffling. Is the idea religion has declined to the point it is no longer central to rural American life?
     
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Sep 11, 2017, 02:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I don't think it's arguable there are various ways one can speak their mind, and not all of them are appropriate.

If she had gone in with the intent to do so in an inappropriate manner, I would assign blame to her for it. She didn't, so I'm not.
But even the fact that you entertain the discussion whether what she did was appropriate is already problematic for the reasons I outlined.
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subego
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Sep 11, 2017, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Some day I would like to circle back to the questions I have about why catholics don't like contraceptives, because that still doesn't make any sense to me logically.
Chongo gave you the divine reason. The worldly reason is because the more Catholics make babies, the more Catholics there are.
     
subego
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Sep 11, 2017, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
But even the fact that you entertain the discussion whether what she did was appropriate is already problematic for the reasons I outlined.
I didn't entertain the discussion until her intent was mentioned.

The importance of her intent only relates to whether she should be blamed (she should not).

Intent does not determine appropriateness. I can (and have) acted inappropriately despite the best intentions. One might even say the road to hell is paved with such.
     
Chongo
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Sep 11, 2017, 02:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Chongo gave you the divine reason. The worldly reason is because the more Catholics make babies, the more Catholics there are.
Did you know that's why we have the "Filet-O-Fish?"
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
subego
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Sep 11, 2017, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Did you know that's why we have the "Filet-O-Fish?"
I did not.

But I thank you for it because it's one of the better items on the menu.
     
Chongo
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Sep 11, 2017, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Did you know that's why we have the "Filet-O-Fish?"
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I did not.

But I thank you for it because it's one of the better items on the menu.
A Mickey D franchise owner was getting killed on Fridays. It was a contest between his Filet-O-Fish and Ray Kroc's "Hula Burger." Ray lost, big time.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
besson3c
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Sep 11, 2017, 09:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
"Be fruitful and multiply"
Contraceptives prevent this from occurring.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm#1646

Thanks, I never thought about this angle. I always thought it was more of a urging to procreate for the purpose of adding to the population and encouraging the survival of the species (which we don't need to worry about any longer).

I mean, I still don't see any logic in being anti-contraceptive just like I don't see the logic in using a tool like an umbrella to prevent getting wet when it rains, but I appreciate your sharing this info which is new to me.
     
 
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