Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Boris Johnson vs The Queen and Parliament

Boris Johnson vs The Queen and Parliament (Page 2)
Thread Tools
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2019, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
... This time, the referendum is legally binding and asks voters to rank (1) Remain, (2) Brexit with May's deal or (3) Brexit without a deal. The EU grants another extension until after this referendum is held.
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Oreo: your referenda would never fly here as it offers leavers two choices and clear victory for remain as every remain voter will simply vote as one bloc while the leave vote will be spilt.
Doc, I believe Oreo is referring to Ranked Choice Voting, where one can vote for preferred choices without a split-vote penalty on larger issues.

Under a ranked-choice vote, a choice wins if it gets over 50% of the vote. If no choice gets a majority, the choice that got the least votes is discarded. Those who voted for it have their votes added to their 2nd choice. Possible example (assuming 52% leave, 48% remain):

Round one:
48% Remain
32% Leave (May deal)
20% Leave (No deal)

No winner, so (Leave - no deal) is discarded. Assuming all No Deal voters chose (Leave - May deal) as their 2nd choice:

Round two:
52% Leave (May deal)
48% Remain

I like Ranked-choice Voting a lot. It lets people vote their hopes above their fears. You can vote for your personal best choice, and only after vote for the lesser scumbag with the better chance of winning.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2019, 10:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Oreo: your referenda would never fly here as it offers leavers two choices and clear victory for remain as every remain voter will simply vote as one bloc while the leave vote will be spilt.
As reader50 pointed out, I think this can be avoided with ranked choice voting. Here, voters are asked to rank the three choices. A typical hard Brexiteer would probably choose

(1) No deal Brexit
(2) May's deal Brexit
(3) Remain

However, there may be a few voters who will have options (2) and (3) reversed:

(1) No deal Brexit
(2) Remain
(3) May's deal Brexit

Now the question is how large that group is? But if Remain is in the range 48~50 %, then it'd just need a few percent of the such unicorn voters. On the other hand, I understand that such voters are rare and just like the original referendum, I think this one will be too close to call.

Regarding whether or not to put May's deal to the vote: right now, I see no alternative. There is no UK government that would be able to negotiate something differently. So I don't think it'd be democratic to put another, mythical deal to the vote. Otherwise you wouldn't get out of this straightjacket as the current and even next government won't likely be able to negotiate something substantially different.

However, we could also think of another question in the referendum, an answer to “What relation would you like the UK to have with the EU in the future?” and give the options (1) Remain a member, (2) a No Deal Brexit or (3) the “Norway option”, for example. To be honest, this is the pertinent question to answer. (I'm quite sure the EU would be game for option (3), although that would have to be clarified, obviously.)
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 14, 2019, 08:36 PM
 
I'm not sure what a referendum vote will look like this time exactly but I heard some positive thoughts on the current status of things.

With the DUP diminished, a changed deal is possible for the first time but while Johnson has no majority, the 'rebel alliance' will take the legislation for that deal (which must be voted on by parliament) and add language to insist the public get to vote on it, along with remain and possibly no deal as well. In other words, another referendum. The spanner in the works is if Johnson elects to break the law and not request an extension if he can't get a deal approved. Theres also the issue of what the UK Supreme Court will say about his dodgy Prorogue this Tuesday or Wednesday. Traditionally they prefer to stay out of parliamentary business and let the MPs sort it out themselves, but since the MPs have been taken out of play with this one, such a line makes zero logical sense so there is a chance they will do something.

So without factoring the wildcards, if Johnson can finish a deal, there will be another referendum, if he can't then there will likely be a general election. If there's an election, things get interesting. A Tory or Brexit Party majority would see no deal Brexit. A Labour or SNP majority would see a second referendum, a Liberal Democrat majority would see them just pull the plug on Brexit altogether. None of these seem likely to me, so its back to hoping that Labour get more voted than the tories, or that the tories stick to their word about not getting in bed with Farage (won't bet the house on that). Any other coalition including the SNP or Lib Dems to make up the numbers, is likely to see a referendum being part of the arrangement.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 15, 2019, 08:41 AM
 
Johnson is banking on running out the clock and preferring to be punished (if that is at all an option) afterwards — he’ll have become a hero to a sizable, very vocal minority. I agree with you that the only way is another referendum — any solution needs political legitimacy from the electorate.

In the long term the big problem is that no matter what happens, a significant share of the population will feel cheated … and at least some for very good reason. The argument that some form of Brexit has gotten the majority, slim, but a majority, is correct, so reversing that would leave ~50 % of the population feeling they have been betrayed by the political class. Remainers can correctly point to the Leave campaign breaking campaign finance laws and murky connections to Russian oligarchs. Soft Brexiteers and pro Remain Tories feel without an electoral home. And if some form of agreement is reached, Hard Brexiteers will feel betrayed. (Well, these people will feel betrayed one way or another, it seems.) I don’t envy you guys.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 16, 2019, 09:36 AM
 
Most leavers will regret leaving if they get it. They won't wait for the supposed benefits to kick in before they lose patience, many of them won't even live that long anyway, even without our health service getting shafted. Thats assuming any benefits ever happen that aren't entirely absorbed by the elite behind it all. Leavers are like angry toddlers throwing tantrums because they can't eat 7 whole chocolate cakes. They don't believe it will make them sick, but it will so the sensible adults have to do the right thing and then put up with being yelled at and hated until they are done screaming themselves out.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 24, 2019, 09:54 AM
 
The Supreme Court has found that the PM's advice to the Queen when proroguing parliament was unlawful, and has vacated that decision. The Speaker has advised MPs that business resumes tomorrow.

Unprecedented doesn't even begin to describe this situation, and I do not understand how BoJo can remain in office. Farage is trying to give him cover by suggesting that he fire an adviser, so not even he will give full support.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 24, 2019, 03:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Unprecedented doesn't even begin to describe this situation, and I do not understand how BoJo can remain in office.
Doesn't that require a vote of no confidence to force the matter? But, I'm not sure such a vote actually has any real effect. Hopefully Waragainstsleep will explain the mechanations involved in how Boris could be forced out as PM.
When I want your opinion,-
I'll read it in your entrails
     
Doc HM
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UKland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 24, 2019, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Doesn't that require a vote of no confidence to force the matter? But, I'm not sure such a vote actually has any real effect. Hopefully Waragainstsleep will explain the mechanations involved in how Boris could be forced out as PM.
It could be regarded and a resigning matter, however Boris is very unlikely to do so, or even register that he's done wrong. In fact he's already spinning the judgement as not "unlawful" but merely the Supreme Court suggesting it was simply a bit rash. Do not expect any resignations any time soon.

To remove Boris as leader the tories would need to submit a motion of no confidence in him as leader of their party, they can't do this for a year under the current rules, so that's not happening.

The only person lawfully allowed to call a vote of no confidence in the government is the leader of the opposition. If it passed this would trigger a general election, which would push past the leave date and result in a no deal exit, so Corbyn is not about to push this button.

Net result, Parliament is back but it's still gridlock. Johnson isn't going anywhere, no-one will vote to remove anyone. As things stand the law states that Johnson is compelled to seek an extension should no deal be available by the 19th(?). So at that point the question is will he? And if he won't what time is left to come up with a plan?

A mad outlier would be Johnson himself calling for a vote of no confidence. He's already tried to call an election under the fixed term parliaments act and failed but he could possibly vote no confidence in himself. If Labour voted along then it's GE time and no deal. This would scupper Johnsons fig leave defence of actually trying to get a deal so would seem unlikely, but not impossible. Corbyn "could" choose to support this since in reality he would love to leave the EU clean and try to blame it all on the Tories and build something new from the wreckage, but his party would crucify him. All very unlikely though.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 25, 2019, 09:04 PM
 
I don't think he can vote no confidence in himself, that would be resignation logically and since he has learned Trump's no shame superpower, he isn't going by his own choice. He's spent all day trying to goad Corbyn into doing it. I've heard hints that maybe other party leaders could do it but I don't know for sure.

Theres problems that need to be sorted. Firstly it seems the Tories think they have a way around recent bill requiring BoJo to extend A50. since this won't be evidenced until the 12th of October at the soonest, there likely wouldn't be time to challenge it in court again. Maybe that's the plan: A transparent bypass that just runs down the clock.
My suggestion would be to give Corbyn the power to request the extension if BoJo won't. The minority parties could orchestrate that easily enough.

A big issue is that the Tories are now united and all working together. Labour and the Lib Dems are fighting more often than not. Its idiocy. The other big issue is that only Boris is living in a post-Trump political sphere. The rest are still playing by rules that no longer apply and this will not serve anyone well except Boris. Make no mistake, ANY previous PM would have resigned before now but 100% would have gone today.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 20, 2019, 05:26 PM
 
The shenanigans continue. BoJo got a new deal, which was essentially what the EU offered on day one, and tried to get parliament to vote on it. Parliament decided to vote on the laws required to implement it first, because they don’t trust BoJo. BoJo was then forced to send the request for a further extension to the EU, which he did - without signing it. Then he sent another letter claiming that he didn’t really want to do so.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 21, 2019, 07:23 AM
 
Interestingly the government made a big mistake. Technically the new deal was voted on on Saturday. It was nodded through instead of a formal vote but that still counts apparently. The speaker of the house now has all the reason in the world to refuse a meaningful vote on the deal again during this new session. Also, its pointless because the deal cannot be formally approved until all the legislation required to enact it has been scrutinised and passed first.

I'm wondering if there's some sort of rule where if BoJo resigns, he doesn't automatically get to stay as Tory leader or something like that. If he wants an election it seems he could just trigger one by resigning. Perhaps he thinks it would weaken him in the public view or something.

Personally I think we need a second referendum before we have any general election. An election is a multi-issue vote, we need to solve a single issue matter that has taken a wrecking ball to our country in the last three years. I really feel the BBC could fix public opinion fast if it would pull its collective tongue out of the current government's backside.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 21, 2019, 11:20 PM
 
Yeah, I don't think the EU (more specifically France) is interested in granting a general extension.
They seem to be fed up with Britain, and they don't want a remaining Britain to throw monkey wrenches in future Budget negotiations.

Brexit will happen soon, with or without a deal.

If Boris gets his no deal, it's because the [email protected]#$ing remain morons were too stubborn.

-t
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 22, 2019, 07:39 AM
 
It is probably illegal for the EU to flat-out deny a proper request. During the lawsuits over Brexit around a year ago, the judgement makes reference to the fact that a member state can only leave the EU by its own request, it cannot be excluded by the union. This was the argument used to state that the UK can withdraw its Article 50 request, but it can be taken as an indication that the courts would not look kindly on the EU just saying no to a request for an extension. The EU can demand to see a plan for what is different this time (e.g. will you be holding a general election or a second referendum), but I don't think they even can say no.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Doc HM
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UKland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 22, 2019, 05:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'm wondering if there's some sort of rule where if BoJo resigns, he doesn't automatically get to stay as Tory leader or something like that. If he wants an election it seems he could just trigger one by resigning. Perhaps he thinks it would weaken him in the public view or something.
If Johnson resigns he just resigns as PM, just as May did, so the Tories run another leadership election but we retain a Tory government. I would think this was unlikely.

As of today (this evening anyway), parliament has thrown another wrench in BoJo's plans by rejecting his 3 day "ram it through" plan in favour of actually debating the most important legislation in the last 50 years. This pretty much rules out the 31st as the day we leave, unless the EU decide not to extend, in which case, we'll no deal our way out of the door.

I suspect the EU would do literally anything NOT to be the ones that bring on the leaving so we will get another extension. If its longish ie next year then almost certainly Boris will try for a third time for an election and this time Labour will probably let it through gambling that Boris's failure to deliver will result in a huge exodus from the tories to the Brexit party opening the door for a Labour victory.

Apart from Corbyn, Labour are edging towards campaigning for outright remain rather than referendum, which may well pull enough voters back from the LibDems as whatever happens they aren't going to form a government. Worst case, Labour and the LibDems should gain enough to govern as a coalition, which would put a lot of pressure on Jo Swinson not to be so idiotic about her anti Labour stance.
Fun Times*. Again


*for a given value of fun
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 23, 2019, 09:35 AM
 
"May you live in interesting times."

I don't think Labour will win any elections as long as Corbyn is their candidate for PM, but a coalition is possible.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 23, 2019, 06:17 PM
 
Yeah Corbyn won't allow the GE until November 1st arrives and Brexit doesn't.
I really wish people would start repeating the mantra that another vote is the ONLY way to sort this mess out. Which is true. an election isn't a single issue vote, using it to decide a single issue is unfair on the electorate and more divisive than a second vote. If enough of the right people started repeating this message, the tide would turn fast and we'd get one. Not fast enough really because once Bercow is gone its hard to see the next speaker standing up to the devious leavers the way he has.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Doc HM
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UKland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 24, 2019, 04:09 PM
 
I'm going to come out and say it. I no longer have ANY idea just what the F is going on.

Spending most of today in the car I managed to catch the news repeating over several hours and I cant even work out if I care what todays machinations mean.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 26, 2019, 10:17 AM
 
I'll summarise what I can:

Boris Johnson's new withdrawal deal is the same as Theresa Mays except worse. It puts a customs border in the Irish sea (which the DUP don't like), and has sneakily moved commitments regarding workers rights and environmental and food standards from the legally binding section of the agreement to the very much non-binding political declaration. Hence why they are having to publicly deny their plans to dilute workers rights and exploit the environment, which of course is a lie. He tried to rush the withdrawal bill through so that parliament wouldn't spot the dodgy fine print that allows him to sneak a no deal Brexit through if no FTA is agreed by December 2020. Theres likely some other bad stuff in there. He offered more time to find it in exchange for an election.
Corbyn wants an election as bad as BoJo if not worse, but is showing sufficient caution as to try to ensure no deal Brexit on 31/10 is off the cards before he goes for one. BoJo wants it on December 12th when the Students will be between locations (somehow) and potentially will fail to vote properly. This date also falls where there is discrepancy in the electoral roll. It gets updated around then so the version used to send out polling cards will not be the version used at polling stations. Many traditional polling stations will also be unavailable on this date due to xmas commitments so its all about making voting difficult because he thinks leavers and Tories will try harder than remainers to cast their ballots.
BoJo can't force an early election without a 66% majority in a vote which he won't get unless Corbyn allows it. Corbyn can call a vote of no confidence that may trigger one or maybe allow an interim government to form, but the lib dems won't back Corbyn as PM, neither will Tory rebels, and he won't back anyone else, so that seems unfeasible unless something changes.
The EU is holding off approving an extension until the UK works out if there will be an election or not. Macron is claiming he won't allow an extension unless a withdrawal deal passes, or a GE or 2nd referendum is called.
Labour and others are likely to try to attach amendments to BoJos deal which will likely eviscerate it as far as he's concerned. The media says a peoples vote on the deal won't pass (this would be the sensible way forward) but changing the deal to keep us in the customs union is a strong possibility. Whether it passes or not I have no idea. I guess the EU would have to approve that again too.

In the meantime, the leavers always knew all of this before they voted, they still know exactly what's going on even when they say they don't and especially when they don't know anything that's in this deal, how it differs from the last one, or what specific positives they can realistically expect or even unrealistically want from this whole mess. And of course, all of this is the fault of remainers.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 26, 2019, 01:31 PM
 
Thanks for the digest, I'd wondered what the details looked like on the new plan. And election gaming in the mix. Gotta say, it feels familiar.
     
Doc HM
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UKland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 27, 2019, 03:37 AM
 
And now the lib dems seem to have gone mad and offered to table legislation that would allow an election on the 9th. Meaning all BoJ needs is a single vote win.
Swinson (LibDem leader) claims this would allow the people to vote for a libdem government but of course she knows this is a zero possibility so in fact she is almost guaranteeing 5 more years of Boris, an out on the 31st of Jan and the tories free reign for the next 5 years so I don’t know what her real plan is.
The SNP appear up for this but their game plan would be win overwhelmingly in Scotland, leaverage this into Indyref 2 and vanish back to Europe.
Boris cares so little for the Union (or anything else that isn’t him being PM that he’s likely to go with them on this as a quid pro quo for getting him his election.

I did think that Jo Swinson was a closet Tory when she was running for lib dem leader, she certainly acted like one when she was in the coalition government. Odd how it may be a lib dem who gets Brexit through.
( Last edited by Doc HM; Oct 27, 2019 at 12:05 PM. )
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 27, 2019, 09:31 AM
 
I have to say that I’m losing track - and I actually need to keep an eye on this mess for my job (I now work in purchasing quality, and I have suppliers in the UK, one in particular that I visit frequently). Are the LibDems thinking that they will gain Labour remain supporters + Tory remain supporters to actually gain enough seats to be a power to be reckoned with? Because with BoJo running his “Brexit or Bust” deal so hard and Corbyn doing something I don’t really understand (he’s tacking hard left, and doesn’t really care about the EU beyond seeing it as a chance to be PM), I guess there is a possibility for a third option? It is just so very hard to predict anything in an FPTP election.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 28, 2019, 07:35 AM
 
The EU has approved the extension until January 31st, with the possibility to leave on December 31st or November 30th if the withdrawal agreement is approved by parliament.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Doc HM
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UKland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 28, 2019, 06:55 PM
 
So Boris has managed to loose another vote in parliament. Is anyone still counting? But vowed to try again to get an election tomorrow. This time he's saying he'll ditch the bill and just go for an election. This will probably swing the LibDems and the SNP.

I must say I still dont get the LibDems game here. They're pushing an election because they say they want to form a fully remain government but they must know like everyone else does that they have zero chance of doing this.

I always say that anytime someone is saying something that obviously makes no sense AT ALL, then they must have another more sensible (to them) agenda they simply dont want to tell you about, I feel the LibDems are in this position. I understand the SNP's support for an election, they dont care about England, they just want out of the union and back into to EU, but just what are the LibDems really up to?
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 28, 2019, 10:09 PM
 
I certainly hope they have a master plan. I actually think they could gain unprecedented ground in an election if they do the right things, but I have no faith they would ever do those things because they are too far from traditional British politics. Too radical.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Doc HM
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UKland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2019, 06:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I certainly hope they have a master plan.
Well, we are about to find out.

Will this one go they way the polling is telling us? If so then Labour will be royally forked and BoJ will be returned with an actual working majority.

Unless...

The polls are wrong (again)
BoJ does "something stupid" during the campaign. Hey! It's his signature move after all.
The LibDems gain hugely and end up holding the balance of power. Now THAT would be interesting. Jo Swinson seem to regard Corbyn as a cross between Freddy Kruger and Satan and you can see her visibly sick up each time she thinks about him, but rejoining the ConDem alliance would mean the most Brexity party of all would be ushering through Brexit. I wonder which way she will jump. Can anyone say "tuition fees"?

The for one welcome our new insect overlords.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2019, 06:37 PM
 
FPTP elections are notoriously hard to predict when there are three or more parties of decent size competing for votes. LibDems may feel that they have the only consistent remain platform, don’t look quite so much like idiots after the last few months (compared to the alternatives), and can claim that they were the adults in the room that broke the deadlock. I don’t give much for their chances, but I have missed my guesses before. I can well believe that there are enough remain supporters of both major parties who are looking for somewhere to jump.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2019, 07:08 PM
 
Do you think the general populace will treat the election as an in-every-way-but-name second referendum on leave/stay? I can’t see how that isn’t what an election would boil down to.
When I want your opinion,-
I'll read it in your entrails
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2019, 08:05 PM
 
No they won't. The problem is that people don't Trust Corbyn with the economy. He has declared intent to spend a ton of cash on public services, plus buying back pretty much everything the Tories have privatised since the early 80s. And his plan to pay for it doesn't sound at a glance like it possible can. Coupled with his constant flip-flopping on Brexit and a second referendum plus the Hillary-esque campaign to paint him as an IRA/Hezbollah sympathiser, and there are retainers who will never vote for him.
Thats why Boris is happy to call an election but not another Brexit vote. One he can win, the other he probably won't. Not without cheating. Sadly an amendment to extend the vote to 16 and 17 year olds was not selected by the speaker of the house. That would have made things really interesting if it had passed. Theres a slender chance the Lords could attach it but its highly unlikely.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2019, 08:06 PM
 
Theres also plenty of longstanding party tribalism in play and it doesn't follow the same lines as brexit tribalism.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 31, 2019, 09:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
No they won't. The problem is that people don't Trust Corbyn with the economy. He has declared intent to spend a ton of cash on public services, plus buying back pretty much everything the Tories have privatised since the early 80s. And his plan to pay for it doesn't sound at a glance like it possible can. Coupled with his constant flip-flopping on Brexit and a second referendum plus the Hillary-esque campaign to paint him as an IRA/Hezbollah sympathiser, and there are retainers who will never vote for him.
This is why this election is super dangerous for everyone involved. The disaster for Labour isn't if the Tories win, it is if they're passed by LibDems. The disaster for Tories isn't if they lose to Labour, it is if now get the Brexit party outflanking them on the right.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 31, 2019, 03:24 PM
 
The Brexit Party are already talking about stepping aside for the Tories so as not to risk the pro-leave majority.
The tories having billed this election as a public vote on the referendum are now campaigning on everything but Brexit. Because that was always how they were likely to win it. If retainers vote tactically instead of tribally, we can keep Boris from winning a majority. Can't see it happening though.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:29 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,