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Poll: India v/s Pakistan (Page 3)
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Macfreak7
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Mar 5, 2002, 06:47 PM
 
Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<STRONG> Divide and rule? They were giving up their rule. But yes the partition is in part a legacy of the British. Even so if it was only due to the British, then why haven't the Pakistanis and Indians since healed their divisions?
</STRONG>
Probably the same reason why more people use PeeCees.
Ignorance is bliss.... and that the British took away by dividing parts and the people of India during their rule.

<STRONG>
So the Mughals were not Muslim? And were they not also succesful military leaders? And wasn't Islam first brought to the subcontinent by invading Arabs? When they invaded did not the Hindus fight back?
</STRONG>
here again, you're confusing things. when you say the "Hindus fought back"... it was just the Hindu kings DEFENDING their province or state or region or whatever. But once they were defeated... the PEOPLE (subjects), which of course consisted of Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians.. where okay with it, cause they didnt have the power to do anything (obviously). And like i said before, they were happy with the Mughal kings until the same kings/rulers started exploiting their power.


<STRONG>
I know where the reference to the last five years was from. I read Hawkeye's post. You quoted from it. I was questioning it because I don't believe it. And what's this about having to read every post? Where's that rule?</STRONG>
Its not a rule. But logic provides that you should do that so people dont have to REPEAT what they have posted already, in the same thread even.

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: Macfreak7 ]
     
Macfreak7
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Mar 5, 2002, 07:25 PM
 
Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
<STRONG>If you think so highly of ur self and ur culture, what the hell are you doing here in the U.S ? go back and live in the lap of luxury you so love and speak so highly of.
</STRONG>
If you knew HALF of everything that is to know about my culture or religion, you would realize why i think so highly of it. Even then every religion/culture has its own 'irrational' things. Hinduism does too, thats exactly why King Siddhartha went on to form Buddhism. But of course its not as shallow or superficial as an "American culture." Now, i dont mean America has nothing to offer... it does, of course it has, everyone knows that, and some are so afraid of it that they fly planes into buildings. Anyway, all that it has to offer is all material. Sorry if that hurt, but it is the truth. I dont think y'all could accept that tho.

<STRONG>
u dont like missionaries converting people eh ? did it ever occur to you that the people who get converted have minds of their own ? And why is that such a big deal anyway ? there are christians who convert to islam, hinduism budhism,etc everyday, that dosent bother me at all. i fail to see your problem.
</STRONG>

I agree theres no problem in converting if its done out of ones own free will. But like agasthya pointed out, bribing someone into following a religion is pretty pathetic. I mean, i wonder what level of faith you have in your own religion if you still have to use material value to 'bribe' people so they would follow it. (by 'you' i mean the missionaries, for example).

<STRONG>
My point of the Taj Mahal, was not that the guy who built it was a godly guy. My point was that the "others"(according to you) have also made significant contributions to history in India (and they were not always Hindu.
</STRONG>
That itself is proof, that religious problems were NEVER prevalent in Indian history, until of course the 'great' British come into the picture.
I agree, that there were regional wars between kings, but that was WITHIN the Indian sub-continent, and that still kept us united as a country, again... until the British invaded.

<STRONG>
And yeah, i guess you are the only person who knows everything there is to know about Indian history, no one else knows as much as you, and God only knows you must have printed your own dictionaries (like i care what the definitions in dictionaries mean anyway).
</STRONG>
i am only contesting what, according to what i have read and learned, is incorrectly being posted and propagated on here. It seems, you cannot accept the fact that you're point of view about the subject might be wrong and/or incosistent with facts, so you have to get aggressive.

<STRONG>
I honestly dont know why i bother immersing myself in a debate with a narrow minded little hippocrate who is a product of the media and propaganda. the one word that comes to mind is ....ethnocentrism.
</STRONG>
yeah, just dont bother next time... stick to your other "nancy" topics and be happy that your points are being accepted by everyone.
just get one thing clear, if i was narrow-minded, i would've probably cussed you out. Not only that, like i said before, I studied in a christian school, which has been around for 153 (or 154 this year) years. It was started by a charity organization of Scottish origin. The fact that it is still around, AGAIN is proof, how tolerant people are (and yeah,,,, that includes the Shiv-Sena). Thats a perfect example of what we can tolerate. It wasnt being shoved down on us, but we accepted it for all the good that it provided (and the bad maybe).
As for "hippocrate".... i'd suggest you stick to words that you can spell right. Just because you can perfectly relate to it doesnt mean that you use it even if you cant spell it.

<STRONG>
Open that mind of yours, we might all benifit. You guys can argue as much as you like. If you ask me, Pakistan should get Kashmir because majority of Kashmiris(who are muslim), probably want to, but unfortunately the largest "democracy" in the world cannot let a democratic process win.
Also, i was wondering what ur opinions are on the shiv-shena(spelling?) in Maharastra(spelling?). They basically hate anyone who isnt Hindu.(i was there). Let me guess, they are probably "freedom fighters" to you guys. they are neo-nazis to me.
</STRONG>

Oh lemme guess.... the people of Kashmir told you that they want to be a part of Pakistan, right?

As for the Shiv-Sena, like i gave in the example, they are NOT pro-Hindu... they are pro-INDIAN. theres a difference. Take a look at how patriotic Americans decided to become after 9-11 (like buy American.. etc), again, not that they werent patriotic before 9-11... it just ignited another spark and fire... you know what i mean.
And they(the Shiv-Sena government) did get kicked off by the people, because most of them didnt like that over-patriotic outlook, which sometimes i didnt like either... so that was victory for the opposition. WRONG, it was victory for DEMOCRACY.

and now i'm hungry.

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: Macfreak7 ]
     
Hawkeye_a
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Mar 5, 2002, 08:32 PM
 
agasthya,
yup, we offer them food and shelter. what do other rich hindus offer the poor ? ...... my point exactly. If they cant compete, they deserve to loose. tough luck. MAYBE the missionaries are offering the "poor" more than the other religious factions are....my response to that..."get with it, and quit complaining"

This is really annoying, the missionaries are actually TRYING to do some good, food shelter and as they may believe , saving their immortal souls, and yet the hindu hare' ramas sit back and do nothing. And then you complain that the missionaries are actually doing something. If you are so pissed about it, go and do the charity work yourself, feed the poor, clothe them and give them shelter and they wont have and reason to convert (according to your presumptions)
     
cognoscenti
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Mar 5, 2002, 08:38 PM
 
Hmm ... isn't it somewhat taking advantage of the situation? Don't you think these rich people have no other choice than to accept the help of the missionaries at whatever cost? And, as has already been pointed out before I believe�there are plenty of poor Americans; I don't think we'd like it a whole lot if they all started being converted to Islam or any other religion that came in and helped them in return for allegiance ...

� thinking takes a lot you see more than many ask of me
     
Hawkeye_a
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Mar 6, 2002, 12:34 PM
 
Well that isnt happening now is it ? And even if it were , big deal. It's their choice. Chances are poor christians will not convert to any other religion, look at the majority of south America. My point is, you can sit and complain about it as much as you like, throw tantrums and accuse other people for all your problems, but when you actually sit back and enjoy all the benifits of the society you are condemming, that just pisses me off.
     
Macfreak7
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Mar 6, 2002, 12:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
<STRONG>agasthya,
yup, we offer them food and shelter. what do other rich hindus offer the poor ? ...... my point exactly. If they cant compete, they deserve to loose. tough luck. MAYBE the missionaries are offering the "poor" more than the other religious factions are....my response to that..."get with it, and quit complaining"

This is really annoying, the missionaries are actually TRYING to do some good, food shelter and as they may believe , saving their immortal souls, and yet the hindu hare' ramas sit back and do nothing. And then you complain that the missionaries are actually doing something. If you are so pissed about it, go and do the charity work yourself, feed the poor, clothe them and give them shelter and they wont have and reason to convert (according to your presumptions)</STRONG>

ARGH, its you again!

you just so CONVENIENTLY left out " in OTHER COUNTRIES" from what agasthya said:

hmm. as far as I know, the majority of the people being converted in India are poor people who are offered food and shelter if they agree to convert to Christiantiy. Seems a little ridiculous to me. I don't recall seeing Hindu extemists in other countries offering the poor money and shelter for conversion to Hinduism. If the Christians want to be recognized in Indian society as a "honest" religion, they should offer their religion as an option to mainstream Indian society, not force feed it down the throats of poor people
and AGAIN it just shows how much you DONT KNOW of what is going on in india in this repect. ALOT of the rich people (yeah.... HINDUS) donate food, clothes build hospitals, school. etc etc..
how do i know this? because i've SEEN IT and DONE IT!
in fact my grandfather, has a school built for some village students near delhi. i've been there.

if you still dont get the point, and only want to see your OWN point of view in what others are saying, then its just too bad. you're just too stuck up and cannot accept the facts.

[ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: Macfreak7 ]
     
roger_ramjet
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Mar 6, 2002, 02:46 PM
 
Originally posted by Macfreak7:

Its not a rule. But logic provides that you should do that so people dont have to REPEAT what they have posted already, in the same thread even.
You didn't have to REPEAT anything. Your so-called logic failed you. You assumed I hadn't read Hawkeye's post. Your assumption was reckless.
     
Macfreak7
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Mar 6, 2002, 04:54 PM
 
Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<STRONG>

You didn't have to REPEAT anything. Your so-called logic failed you. You assumed I hadn't read Hawkeye's post. Your assumption was reckless.</STRONG>
okay... whatever you say!
     
Hawkeye_a
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Mar 6, 2002, 05:44 PM
 
Um.... those of you who think it's so unfair to have minorities practicing freedom of religion and freedom of speech(by preaching their religion). In the end you will get what you want.... MOst of the catholic community and such around the area of Goa and the west coast of India are leaving or working to have their kids settle in less hostile territory for minorities. Pakistan probably has a refugee program for muslims as well(in the north).

Since we kinda trailed off of this thread. here's my final post on this rediculous thread. Kashmir should goto Pakistan. Why ? Majority muslims at the hands of a mostly hindu government . When almost NOTHING is being done to protect the muslims when a mosque is demolished and almost NOTHING was being done to stop those idiots trying to build a temple on that very ground (just cause they saw milk or something come out of a rock...yeah thats really believable), i think there is a bias towards hindus and "freedom" and "justice" are not upheld. Kashmir should goto Pakistan just cause majority of Kashmiris are muslim.

(and to those of you who think i know absolutely nothing of India or it's history, or think that you know whats "really going on, back off, ive lived there)
     
Macfreak7
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Mar 6, 2002, 09:38 PM
 
Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
<STRONG>Um.... those of you who think it's so unfair to have minorities practicing freedom of religion and freedom of speech(by preaching their religion). In the end you will get what you want.... MOst of the catholic community and such around the area of Goa and the west coast of India are leaving or working to have their kids settle in less hostile territory for minorities. Pakistan probably has a refugee program for muslims as well(in the north).

Since we kinda trailed off of this thread. here's my final post on this rediculous thread. Kashmir should goto Pakistan. Why ? Majority muslims at the hands of a mostly hindu government . When almost NOTHING is being done to protect the muslims when a mosque is demolished and almost NOTHING was being done to stop those idiots trying to build a temple on that very ground (just cause they saw milk or something come out of a rock...yeah thats really believable), i think there is a bias towards hindus and "freedom" and "justice" are not upheld. Kashmir should goto Pakistan just cause majority of Kashmiris are muslim.

(and to those of you who think i know absolutely nothing of India or it's history, or think that you know whats "really going on, back off, ive lived there)</STRONG>

geez! what a thick skulled brainless dork! (yeah.... i just lost all my respect for you)
just because there are more muslims in kashmir doesnt mean they want to be part of pakistan!!!
also... MISSIONARIES ARE FORCING(by bribing) IT ON THE VILLAGERS.....THAT IS NOT FREEDOM OF RELIGION. and what you CLAIM is happening in Goa or wherever.... i would say is like a backfire right in the face of those missionaries... cause if it wasnt for them, the extremists wouldnt be so pissed of by that religion in general.

And just because you've lived there (for probably what... 2 years?) doesnt mean you understand the WAY OF LIFE there, just like alot of people would NEVER understand the "way of life" in the US, where promiscuity, for example, is seen like rain in a tropical country.
living in India as an INDIAN is different from living in India as a guest and getting all kinds of "favours" from locals.

and to get back on topic.... the majority of the people in kashmir dont want to be part of pakistan.... they either want to continue being a part of India OR be independent. (go ask them).
like in other parts of India, there are muslims that have family in Pakistan, but they choose to live in India.... WHY.... because they PREFER it here! Yeah! they prefer it even tho it is governed by an "EXTREMIST"(like you suggest) group of people. They just feel India has a lot more opportunities than Pakistan.
So QUIT spreading non-sensical CRAP that is based solely on YOUR opinions..... of course which are based on your "LONG STAY IN INDIA"

[ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: Macfreak7 ]
     
Agasthya
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Mar 6, 2002, 09:43 PM
 
Originally posted by Macfreak7:
<STRONG>


geez! what a thick skulled brainless dork! (yeah.... i just lost all my respect for you)
just because there are more muslims in kashmir doesnt mean they want to be part of pakistan!!!
also... MISSIONARIES ARE FOCING IT ON THE VILLAGERS.....THAT IS NOT FREEDOM OF RELIGION. and what you CLAIM is happening in Goa or wherever.... i would say is like a backfire right in the face of those missionaries... cause if it wasnt for them, the extremists wouldnt be so pissed of by that religion in general.

And just because you've lived there (for probably what... 2 years?) doesnt mean you understand the WAY OF LIFE there, just like alot of people would NEVER understand the "way of life" in the US, where promiscuity, for example, is seen like rain in a tropical country.
living in India as an INDIAN is different from living in India as a guest and getting all kinds of "favours" from locals.

and to get back on topic.... the majority of the people in kashmir dont want to be part of pakistan.... they either want to continue being a part of India OR be independent. (go ask them).
like in other parts of India, there are muslims that have family in Pakistan, but they choose to live in India.... WHY.... because they PREFER it here! Yeah! they prefer it even tho it is governed by an "EXTREMIST"(like you suggest) group of people. They just feel India has a lot more opportunities than Pakistan.
So QUIT spreading non-sensical CRAP that is based solely on YOUR opinions..... of course which are based on your "LONG STAY IN INDIA"</STRONG>
well put. I was looking for the right words to tell him that he was wrong but I couldn't find them...very well put.
     
saj
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Mar 7, 2002, 11:37 PM
 
Originally posted by Macfreak7:
<STRONG>


geez! what a thick skulled brainless dork! (yeah.... i just lost all my respect for you)
just because there are more muslims in kashmir doesnt mean they want to be part of pakistan!!!
also... MISSIONARIES ARE FORCING(by bribing) IT ON THE VILLAGERS.....THAT IS NOT FREEDOM OF RELIGION. and what you CLAIM is happening in Goa or wherever.... i would say is like a backfire right in the face of those missionaries... cause if it wasnt for them, the extremists wouldnt be so pissed of by that religion in general.

And just because you've lived there (for probably what... 2 years?) doesnt mean you understand the WAY OF LIFE there, just like alot of people would NEVER understand the "way of life" in the US, where promiscuity, for example, is seen like rain in a tropical country.
living in India as an INDIAN is different from living in India as a guest and getting all kinds of "favours" from locals.

and to get back on topic.... the majority of the people in kashmir dont want to be part of pakistan.... they either want to continue being a part of India OR be independent. (go ask them).
[ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: Macfreak7 ]</STRONG>
Well, I've been reading this thread without contributing..... now I guess its time....

I'm an Indian and yes, I am a Muslim too. And I would like to add what MacFreak7 (so good to see that so many people in India have Macs, like me.... ) has said here. Yes, as a muslim if you ask me whether Kashmir should belong to India or Pakistan.... my answer is DEFINITELY India !!! And if people think that Kashmir should go to Pakistan just because there are lot of muslims, then they're a ignorant lot !!!! I'm not claiming here that India didn't make mistakes in Kashmir, but believe me, Kashmiris don't want to join Pakistan either!!! Pakistan is already controlling part of Kashmir (which is called PoK, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir), do you think that people there are happy? Nope, 'coz they want to be independent !!!!


<STRONG>
like in other parts of India, there are muslims that have family in Pakistan, but they choose to live in India.... WHY.... because they PREFER it here! Yeah! they prefer it even tho it is governed by an "EXTREMIST"(like you suggest) group of people. They just feel India has a lot more opportunities than Pakistan.
</STRONG>
Here again, I woule like agree in part. Muslims want to live in India not 'coz they have more opportunities (indeed that's a bonus), but 'coz India is more democratic than Pakistan!!!! In India you will find some fanatics will kill Muslims or Hindus, but in Pakistan, Muslims kill other Muslims who are praying inside a mosque !!!!!!

The issues here are larger than it looks. My best friends are Hindus. And we never ever have any kind of differences on religious lines. If there're any communal problems in India, its created by dirty politicians to grab power.


Hence, my request to all here is, please don't conclude just based on numbers and statistics. They are meant to deceive.....

Peace.

[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: saj ]
     
 
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