[booboo]

I know this one crops up every now and then, but I still think Apple are missing a sales opportunity - a media-centre/gamer's Mac pitched between the mini and the iMac.

In some ways this is even more relevant with the jump to Intel CPU's and the gaming opportunities that affords then ever was before.

The mini nearly fits the bill but fails for the following reasons: poor graphics for gamers, poor internal storage for video capture.

What we need is a headless iMac, a consumer XServe, which would truly serve as a media centre/gamer's Mac.

• Screenless - but give me a HDMI interface or adapter
• One PCIe slot for a high performance graphics card
• Room for two (or more) 3.5" drives
• Front-panel USB and Firewire
• Perhaps even an internal USB socket for those DTV adaptors
• Typical slimline DVD-player form factor. Like a slim Centris 610 for the new millennium . . . . (personally I wouldn't mind if Apple saved money and allowed use of standard DVD drives)

Apart from that, everything else can be as for the mini/iMac

I would like to buy this Mac - in addition to, not instead of - the Mac I use for everything else.

Comments?

[jamil5454]

If you look at Apple's history, they have had no interest in taking hold in the huge and competitive markets. Instead, they pick a few things and do them extremely well.

Right now you can build or buy a gaming PC or media center PC for much cheaper than Apple could offer one, with much more upgradeability and software availability.

[imitchellg5]

The headless iMac discussion again? Please no.

[Leonard]

We already have a thread on this... go revive it if you want. We don't need another one.

[thebunny]

If you read these forums, you'll see threads like this every little while. There are lots of us who don't drink Kool-Aid and who agree with you. It doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that Apple is passing this up (supporting a stagnating platform is dumb). That machine could make more profit than the Mac Pro and it would sell like hotcakes. But they are stubbornly sticking with the iMac for the masses and the Mac Pro for pros mantra (another similar bit of stubbornness is that QuickTime still won't play full screen out of the box) . Nobody is selling all-in-ones because people don't want them (see how many of those Dell/HP have). Nobody is selling too many quad Xeons either (Apple included). It's amazing Apple is managing to sell as many of those as they do (I guess people need a desktop Mac so they go with the iMac or the Mac Pro, not much choice). But still, while laptop sales are taking off, desktops are dropping (687 K in Q3 2005 vs. 529 K in Q3 2006). No surprises there. I am thinking they can't be that idiotic and that they'll release a headless Mac with some expansion sooner rather than later. But then again, QT is up to version 7 now and still no full screen so you never know.

[brokenjago]

I beg to differ. I work in Computer Sales at Fry's Electronics (Store #11: Burbank, California,) and 90% of the customers I deal with on a daily basis love the iMac's form factor. As a matter of fact, they're our best selling line of desktop computers, despite the fact that we offer $269 desktops, and the iMacs start at $999. They fly off the shelves.

[merp]

Well, yeah. You're in Burbank. If you're the Fry's Electronics in Arlington, Texas, I bet the situation's reversed.

[P]

Argh. OK then, let's sum up the reason why this won't happen one more time: This machine would cannnibalize Mac Pro sales. Mac Pros have a huge margin, and Apple can't afford to lose that one. They are, slowly, but the sales they're losing they're funneling into reasonably high-margin iMacs. The appropriate model that more or less satisfies your criteria without cutting into the margins is the low-end Powermac model that has existed from time to time. Apple doesn't sell one now, and hasn't for some time - we don't know why, but most likely it didn't sell.

The counterargument to this goes more or less "But Apple would sell more machines in total and make up for the difference even if they sold it at $999!" or something along those lines, usually argued with "Because I would buy one and all my PC friends as well." You don't know that. It could happen, but I seriously doubt it. The market for people that you describe is smaller than you think, although very vocal. It's a bet, and one Apple hasn't made yet. It's not impossible that they, at some point in the future after the buying rush after the realse of CS3, will elect to do that, although I doubt it.

And as usual, I'm not saying that I agree with this, I'm just explaining the reasoning.

[mduell]

I think that would gut a lot of Mac Pro sales... from my observation, people aren't buying a Mac Pro because they need a Mac Pro, they're buying one because an iMac is deficient in some way; this gamer/media box would solve many of those deficiencies.

[booboo]

Gut Mac Pro sales?

There's no way I'm going to sit a Mac Pro next to my TV for my media centre.

As it is, I probably will use my forthcoming Mac Pro for my main computer AND as my media centre. It probably is powerful enough to do both, most of the time. (My computer sits on the opposite side of the room from my TV)

But I'd much rather buy an additional Mac to run my TV, and the mini's lack of gaming potential kind of precludes it.

Yes, this request has cropped up a number of times, but the landscape changes quickly. In the last year my two Mac neighbours and I have gotten DTV devices for our MacBooks. It's clear that this is a superior route for recording and managing digital TV. This market is taking off big-time.

The mini is kind of crippled out of the box for this duty - and almost requires immediate purchase of external storage.

The Mac Pro is the wrong shape and overkill, performance-wise.

If the Mac mini had two SATA connectors on the mobo, and standard ATX - or easily adaptable power requirements, I'd consider transferring it to another case - but it still would be a decent gaming computer . . .

[mduell]

I wasn't saying Mac Pros are being used as media centers.

But the proposed Mac would give you upgradeable graphics, a full size disk, and not be handicapped with a permanently attached monitor. Those three things are what push a lot of people who could almost deal with a mini or iMac to the Mac Pro. Those Mac Pro sales would be lost.

I'm not sure what part of the globe you're in, but in the US a TV tuner for a computer means either analog or a very limited selection of HD channels; they can't make a CableCard tuner for computers to get a full compliment of HD programming.

[brokenjago]

Originally Posted by mduell

But the proposed Mac would give you upgradeable graphics, a full size disk, and not be handicapped with a permanently attached monitor. Those three things are what push a lot of people who could almost deal with a mini or iMac to the Mac Pro. Those Mac Pro sales would be lost.

I would have to agree with that. That's the reason I bought a Mac Pro :-/

[Bwa]

Uh, Apple has announced the iTV already.

[Leonard]

Originally Posted by mduell 

II'm not sure what part of the globe you're in, but in the US a TV tuner for a computer means either analog or a very limited selection of HD channels; they can't make a CableCard tuner for computers to get a full compliment of HD programming.

That may not be a problem anymore with Sling Media - Slingbox PRO

I'd like to get one to try it out, but the Slingbox Pro only seems to be available in the US currently. They just released beta software for Mac OS X.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Leonard 

That may not be a problem anymore with Sling Media - Slingbox PRO

I'd like to get one to try it out, but the Slingbox Pro only seems to be available in the US currently. They just released beta software for Mac OS X.

That doesn't have CableCard support and doesn't appear to let you record the programs on your computer...

[booboo]

I'm in the UK. I have a the Elgato Eye TV DTT USB stick. These devices pick up the full selection of Digital TV available across Europe.

It is a far superior solution, in my opinion, for watching, recording, editing and managing TV. Hooked up digitally to a big LCD TV, quality is better than my dedicated DTT box.

It works on my MacBook and my G5 DC. I would like to dedicate a Mac solely to the TV - as a replacement for my temperamental DVD player, ugly DTV box (which doesn't output digirally) and VHS recorder (!)

The mini is hampered by poor graphivs (for games) and poor internal storage (for video.)

I guess I'll trail a lead across from my forthcoming Mac Pro, but I'd much rather buy a second (OK, third) dedicated Mac.

Hackintosh? I've thought about it, maybe . . .

[itguy05]

Originally Posted by thebunny 

If you read these forums, you'll see threads like this every little while. There are lots of us who don't drink Kool-Aid and who agree with you. It doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that Apple is passing this up (supporting a stagnating platform is dumb). That machine could make more profit than the Mac Pro and it would sell like hotcakes. But they are stubbornly sticking with the iMac for the masses and the Mac Pro for pros mantra

Originally Posted by merp 

Well, yeah. You're in Burbank. If you're the Fry's Electronics in Arlington, Texas, I bet the situation's reversed.

Let's have a look at sales figures:

Amazon's Top sellers in computers:
Amazon.com Bestsellers

#1 - MacBook
#2 - SanDisk 2GB MicroSD
#3 - MacBook
#4 - Toshiba Laptop
#5 - 20" iMac
#6 - MacBook
#7 - Vaio laptop
#8 - Toshiba laptop
#9 - 17" iMac
#10 - MacBook

So, 20% of the top 10 sellers on Amazon are iMacs, 60% are Macs. Why would they care to go after the shrinking and small desktop crowd when all indicators are that people are buying laptops in greater numbers than desktops?

[booboo]

So, 20% of the top 10 sellers on Amazon are iMacs, 60% are Macs. Why would they care to go after the shrinking and small desktop crowd when all indicators are that people are buying laptops in greater numbers than desktops?

Because Apple know that their business is not just about making Mac alternatives for people who currently use PC's, it's about extending the reach of Apple products, and the Apple experience - and that means new areas like DTV, and the recording, storing and editing of DTV.

Just like the iPod has been supremely successful for Apple, I'm suggesting that a Mac-as-Media-Centre is another growth area. (Maybe you're a little behind in States with DTV, like you were (are?) with your competing, incompabable mobile phone networks? - LOL)

As I've already stated, here in the UK these USB DTV stick solutions are huge. Everyone's getting into them - even my mother wants one! The sad thing is there isn't a Mac that is ideal for this task. Yes, it's great to record and edit TV programmes on my G5 - and/or on my MacBook when I'm out, but ideally, I'd like a Mac that just lives under the big telly on the other side of the room, and the mini is just not ideal, just as the Mac Pro is the wrong shape and overkill.

I'm not asking you to buy one, just acknowledge there is a market. Hell, even Microdoft acknowledges there is a market - with a dedicated version of XP: Windows Media Center, and as we all know, Apple can do it better, so what's the objection?

Especiallyu as these days we're talking about a more-or-less standard Intel PC mobo with a couple of SATA connectors and a PCIe slot or two, it's not like there's any R&D that Apple/Intel haven't already done . . .

[itguy05]

As I've already stated, here in the UK these USB DTV stick solutions are huge. Everyone's getting into them - even my mother wants one! The sad thing is there isn't a Mac that is ideal for this task.

That may be the problem - here in the US, most of us have cable and to get any sort of decent cable programming, you need a cable box. Controlling this is a PITA as you need to use an IR Blaster and then there's no guarantee the thing will work properly.

Most of us just get the DVR from our cable company so we can get HD and fuss-free recording of shows.

XP MCE is nice, but trying to control the cable box and such with it is a PITA. Cable cards in theory will fix this, but cable companies are really lazy about deploying them. Just ask those who bought the new Series 3 Tivo and are having many issues getting it to play nice with their cable co.

[Gee4orce]

Originally Posted by jamil5454 

If you look at Apple's history, they have had no interest in taking hold in the huge and competitive markets.

Like the MP3 player market you mean ?

Originally Posted by booboo 

The mini is hampered by poor graphivs (for games) and poor internal storage (for video.)

I can't argue about the graphics, but I just bought a LaCie external disk for my Mini that has 300+ GB of storage, is styled exactly like the Mini and is almost as quiet. It's fantastic, and solves the storage issue in a swipe. The price is reasonable compared to other external enclosures, but the LaCie also works as a Firewire and USB hub ! Bargain !

With perpendicular storage 2.5" HD drives arriving, the internal storage of the Min could soon be less of an issue too. I'm sure I read that 200-300 GB + laptop drives are already in production.

[brokenjago]

200GB Laptop drives exist today. However, they seem to be limited to 4200RPM - a huge bottleneck for HD intensive apps.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by itguy05 

XP MCE is nice, but trying to control the cable box and such with it is a PITA. Cable cards in theory will fix this, but cable companies are really lazy about deploying them. Just ask those who bought the new Series 3 Tivo and are having many issues getting it to play nice with their cable co.

How are CableCards going to magically fix the IR blaster problem? You can't certify a CableCard reader for a generic PC (or Mac).

Originally Posted by Gee4orce 

With perpendicular storage 2.5" HD drives arriving, the internal storage of the Min could soon be less of an issue too. I'm sure I read that 200-300 GB + laptop drives are already in production.

The 160 and 200GB laptop drives are perpendicular.

[LouZer]

Originally Posted by booboo 

I know this one crops up every now and then, but I still think Apple are missing a sales opportunity - a media-centre/gamer's Mac pitched between the mini and the iMac.
...
The mini nearly fits the bill but fails for the following reasons: poor graphics for gamers, poor internal storage for video capture.

What we need is a headless iMac, a consumer XServe, which would truly serve as a media centre/gamer's Mac.
...
Apart from that, everything else can be as for the mini/iMac

...Comments?

First, how does a computer with more options then either the mini or the iMac fit "between" the mini and the iMac?

Second, what you're describing is not a 'consumer xServe', which is a SERVER machine, not a gaming machine. Geesh. A consumer xServe would be a lower cost server with a less complicated/easy to use setup/install OS and feature set.

Third, I like your "Apart from that, the rest could be the same" comment. What's left to be the same? The motherboard? The case color?

But what's truly irritating about this post (and discussions about a 'headless iMac') is people don't realize what they're talking about. The mini is, in all sense and purposes, a headless iMac. The iMac has built-in video and no expansion options. The mini is the same (albeit a lesser video card) thing. The mini is also the 'media center' portion of your desire too (no one's hooking up a mac tower to their TV, although I guess there are idiots who do it with PCs...).

What is being described is not a headless iMac, but a "Mac Amatuer" (a slimmed down version of the Mac Pro - amateur, get it - OK, maybe a Mac Hobbyist, or a Mac Tinkerer, or a Mac Pro Slimline 3000).

So, stop calling it a headless iMac and call it something else. You've already got a headless iMac!

Oh, and what you're asking for would cost more then you propose as well, definitely in the same area as the iMacs, $1500 or so. Apple would never charge less then the iMacs for this box.

Well, you asked for comments....

[Leonard]

I have to agree with Louzer, booboo. The mini fits the media center area perfectly. In fact it seems that most people that buy one use it for that purpose. It has everything you need for a media center. You can add HD space externally, TV tuner software/hardware, it has Frontrow and the remote. I'd probably select the option of the bigger internal HD for a media center. It has itunes.

The only thing it isn't, is a gaming machine, but a media center isn't going to be a gaming machine. Get a console or a better Mac/PC for that.

A consumer Xserve would be the Mac Pro or Mac Mini. A consumer file server doesn't really need good graphics.

[itguy05]

How are CableCards going to magically fix the IR blaster problem? You can't certify a CableCard reader for a generic PC (or Mac).

Because a Cablecard eliminates the box. It contains the descrabling and tuner that is needed to get the channels without the box. So you won't certify a gneric Mac or PC for the CC, but you certify the PCI, USB, or Firewire solution the card goes into.

Basically, you create a USB, FW, or PCI tuner card or dongle that accepts a cablecard. Then you get all the benefits of the cable box (HBO, HD, Showtime, etc) without the IR balster hassles.

[JeffHarris]

Well, some kind of mid-range machine would be great... a prosumer Mac!
I'm thinking more of a headless MacBook Pro with a 3 1/2" hard drive and upgradable graphics card.

The real problem with the mini and the iMac are the graphics cards and hard drives. The lack of FireWire 800 is a real issue as well.

I'd LOVE the raw horsepower of MacPro, but they're just too damn big. I don't want or need 4 drive bays and a massive box. I don't see a mid-range desktop cannibalizing too many MacPro sales. I'd see it as tapping new and different markets. I'd get one as a second home/office machine. Or get one to hook up to my 40" 1080p HDTV.

[booboo]

Originally Posted by JeffHarris 

Well, some kind of mid-range machine would be great... a prosumer Mac!
I'm thinking more of a headless MacBook Pro with a 3 1/2" hard drive and upgradable graphics card.

The real problem with the mini and the iMac are the graphics cards and hard drives. The lack of FireWire 800 is a real issue as well.

I'd LOVE the raw horsepower of MacPro, but they're just too damn big. I don't want or need 4 drive bays and a massive box. I don't see a mid-range desktop cannibalizing too many MacPro sales. I'd see it as tapping new and different markets. I'd get one as a second home/office machine. Or get one to hook up to my 40" 1080p HDTV.

Would you go for it if were about the size of closed 17" MacBook Pro - maybe a little thicker - and could be oriented horizontally and perhaps vertically too, via a stand . . . ?

I reckon 1 PCIe slot would be sufficient, providing there is also on-board (integrated) video, so those that want a 3D/gaming machine can add a card, and those that want the functionality of another card - say audio dsp - can use the integrated video.

Room for two 3.5" drives would really be a godsend too.

[booboo]

Originally Posted by LouZer 

First, how does a computer with more options then either the mini or the iMac fit "between" the mini and the iMac?

Second, what you're describing is not a 'consumer xServe', which is a SERVER machine, not a gaming machine. Geesh. A consumer xServe would be a lower cost server with a less complicated/easy to use setup/install OS and feature set.

Third, I like your "Apart from that, the rest could be the same" comment. What's left to be the same? The motherboard? The case color?

But what's truly irritating about this post (and discussions about a 'headless iMac') is people don't realize what they're talking about. The mini is, in all sense and purposes, a headless iMac. The iMac has built-in video and no expansion options. The mini is the same (albeit a lesser video card) thing. The mini is also the 'media center' portion of your desire too (no one's hooking up a mac tower to their TV, although I guess there are idiots who do it with PCs...).

What is being described is not a headless iMac, but a "Mac Amatuer" (a slimmed down version of the Mac Pro - amateur, get it - OK, maybe a Mac Hobbyist, or a Mac Tinkerer, or a Mac Pro Slimline 3000).

So, stop calling it a headless iMac and call it something else. You've already got a headless iMac!

Oh, and what you're asking for would cost more then you propose as well, definitely in the same area as the iMacs, $1500 or so. Apple would never charge less then the iMacs for this box.

Well, you asked for comments....

headless iMac, headless iMac, headless iMac

Well the iMac actually has decent graphics - presumably PCIe - so the controllers are all on the mobo - the only thing it lacks is a physical socked to allow people the option of selecting which graphics card they want to use.

That's why I'm differentiating it from the mini with its 'integrated' graphics.

The point is that if Apple were to make a mac like this, there would be no point in not allowing it to cover as many bases as possible - that means decent graphics to differentiate it from the mini. That means some PC owners would buy one to replace their Dells.

Most of the PC owning students I know play games on their PC's. The won't buy a mini because the graphics aren't up to it. They can't afford or justify a Mac Pro, they would consider an iMac but already have a screen and bluetooth mouse and one of those hideous multimedia keyboards that PC users seem to like so much.

This approach worked for the mini so why on earth not for a slightly more upmarket machine?

The mini as a media centre requires the immediate purchase of external storage - not ideal.

As far as cannibalising sales of the Mac Pro's, Apple is more likely to make more profit on a plastic -cased Mac based around the Core2 Duo than the aluminium monster with its two dual-core Xeons.

Why on earth you think Apple couldn't make this box for $100 less than the cheapest iMac is beyoned me.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by booboo 

Why on earth you think Apple couldn't make this box for $100 less than the cheapest iMac is beyoned me.

they could. but like me they think your input is useless

despite your various MBAs and reams of market research data on this no one at Apple is going to heed your advice and make the damned thing. its the world's loss but that's the price we pay for not making you CEO of the company.

[booboo]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious 

they could. but like me they think your input is useless
.

Thanks

And your input was not only informative, but in some small - but by no means insignificant - way, made the world a slightly better place.

Have a nice life.

[testudo]

Originally Posted by booboo 

Why on earth you think Apple couldn't make this box for $100 less than the cheapest iMac is beyoned me.

Could they make it available at that price? Probably. Would they make it at that price? No.

Apple has their little groups of computers they love so much (notebook vs desktop, consumer vs. pro) and they just love to stick everything they have in those little boxes. So, first of all, you're screwed because there's no box labeled "pro-sumer". So someone there would first have to come up with that box. Then they've got five boxes on their big chart of computer cateogories, and it looks all off-center and unbalanced and whatever, and you know how Apple puts looks over and above everything else (look how long it took to get a simple USB port on the front of the towers, and how quickly they disappeared from the iMacs/minis, all because it then doesn't 'look' good - or the fact the mini is so underpowered/undersized for real use or upgrades, all because Apple apparently thought that if it were another inch taller, and perhaps an inch square wider/deeper, people would then hate it). So in order to keep their chart looking pretty, they won't add a pro-sumer box.

There's also the problem of Apple feeling that customers are either too stupid to figure out what they need, or just want to make sure people who need something useful in their computer, they want to make sure they force them to buy the pro machine. This is why iBooks don't have a expresscard slot, and used to not be able to do multi-monitor support. Imacs don't come with a single slot or a replaceable video card. Apparently 'consumers' want a box to put on their desk and never touch it again, while 'pros' need to be able to swap/add hard drives, add memory, add other devices, etc. Apple doesn't like that middle ground. Putting something in the middle might allow consumers to get some pro features, or pros to be cheap and get a capable-enough computer, even one geared more toward consumers.

But once you get past the whole "where's that fifth box going to go!!??!?!?!?!" conundrum, and the "but its not pro, its not consumer, oh my god, what is it?!?!?!?!?" conundrum (and assuming your head doesn't explode from all this, which apparently they would at 1 infinite loop), you then have to fit it into Apple's pricing structure. Apple doesn't like to confuse their customers. You can't have a high-end MacBook for the same price as a low-end MacBook Pro. Again, we're talking exploding heads here. So each little box on the chart generally have their own price range (within the desktop/laptop rows, not between the four boxes themselves, necessarily). So, the macbooks sell for less then the macbook pros. The mini (the real headless imac) is less then the low-end imac, and the imacs are less then the mac pros.

So, now you've got to get a pricing structure set up for this new model (which falls in the desktop line) and figure out where you're going to sell it. And you have to make sure that we don't go all "Scanners" on the customers, either, with the price (you know how Apple likes things nice and neat, so remnants of people's exploded brains all over the store just wouldn't look good for the image they're trying to promote). So its either got to fit between the mini and the imac, or the imac and the mac pro. If they put it between the mini and the imac, you might as well stop selling the mini, as it wouldn't sell anymore (the ol' let's see, I could buy the $800 mini, or spend another $200 and get way better graphics, more space, much more expandiblity, etc). Plus, you're pricing a Pro-sumer machine between the 'cheapo/switcher/tinkerer" and "consumer" models. That doesn't cut it at all.

So you're left with between the iMac and the Mac Pro. No reason it can't go there. But then you're talking $1500-$2000 price range. But for that kind of money, there better be more in it then what you're talking about.

Ergo, they wouldn't sell it for $1000/$1100. Q.E.D

BTW, if you really want a media center mac, what you would need apple to do is sell it at traditional component size, and offer various colors (like black, silver, etc) to match people's systems. White is crap and doesn't come close to cutting it.

[MagnusDredd]

Originally Posted by booboo 

• Screenless - but give me a HDMI interface or adapter
• One PCIe slot for a high performance graphics card
• Room for two (or more) 3.5" drives
• Front-panel USB and Firewire
• Perhaps even an internal USB socket for those DTV adaptors
• Typical slimline DVD-player form factor. Like a slim Centris 610 for the new millennium . . . . (personally I wouldn't mind if Apple saved money and allowed use of standard DVD drives)

I have no interest in a "Mac media center". It would have most of the same restrictions that Windows Media Center has. Most likely, less restrictive, but Hollywood would force Apple to make it suck more than I'm interested in. Furthermore even if somehow Apple managed to sell one that wasn't handicapped at Hollywood's insistance, MythTV is far cheaper and offers more (I'm Linux friendly).

What I do want is a gaming system. I have a Mac tower, and an Athlon (Work and Play).

I'm not going to buy two machines to do this again. I had considered it, but I've decided that I'm just not going to do it.

I may upgrade my Mac tower, but I just can't see me buying a Mac Pro because it's the only thing that comes close to being what I want. It's simply too much money.

I may just find the cheapest upgrade for my Mac tower and upgrade my Athlon. I'm getting tired of waiting for Apple to decide they want my business.

I require a x16 PCIe slot, hopefully two of them (SLI).
Graphics cards that have NOT been underclocked (What are they thinking????).
Conroe, NOT Woodcrest which uses slower, and more expensive RAM.
I don't want or need 4 cores. There are only two games that I've heard of that benefit from more than 2 and they're not even out yet.
2+ 5.25" drive bays.
2+ 3.5" drive bays.

Now I'm a huge fan of much of what Apple has released, but:
They have to know that there are gamers who'd like Macs (a fair number of them).
They don't offer that market segment a decent value.
They basically seem to be hoping that ethusiasts will buy a Mac Pro (which is a poor value for gamers).

I have not entirely made up my mind as to what I want to do yet, but sometimes the prospect of building a beige-box PC and and hacking OSX to run on it seems like a decent idea.

[MagnusDredd]

Originally Posted by testudo 

Could they make it available at that price? Probably. Would they make it at that price? No.

So you're left with between the iMac and the Mac Pro. No reason it can't go there. But then you're talking $1500-$2000 price range. But for that kind of money, there better be more in it then what you're talking about.

Ergo, they wouldn't sell it for $1000/$1100. Q.E.D

A baseline almost gamer friendly Mac Pro is $2200 for the educational price!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's: slowest CPUs, smallest Hard Drive, and an underclocked x1900xt.

If they sold a tower with SLI and 2 optical bays, 2 HD bays, and a normally clocked X1900XTX for $1500, people would buy it... I'd buy it.

It'd be overpriced, but it'd outrun the Mac Pro on games by a fair margin, and games are the heaviest thing that I do. I'd have OSX, I'd only be buying one machine, but for $700 cheaper, and affordable (and faster) mainstream memory, it'd all be good.

Note: My last Mac tower cost me about $1250. Without the display... I'm willing to pay a fair amount, I'm just not willing to be ripped off.

BTW the mid-line MacBook Pro is only $100 more than the above Mac Pro.

Here's what we should do.....

Let them know how much money they're missing.

Apple - Mac Pro - Feedback

Tell them you won't buy one, that you're not a)wealthy, b)a design pro, c)into video editing. Tell them what you want. Tell them you'll pay more than for a "comparable PC", you just want a mac that will boot XP and double as a decent gamer rig.

[mitchell_pgh]

I feel the iTV will make the media center look silly to be honest.

[booboo]

Well, gamers, what would be your minimum spec requirements for a Mac for your purposes?

Say you'd like 2 x 5.25" drives, but you don't need 'em. 1 Superdrive would be sufficient - not ideal for your purposes granted, but adequate.

You need a PCIe16 slot, accepted. Do you really need two?

Two 3.5" drive slots. That fits nicely between the mini and the Mac Pro's.

Does it really need to be a tower? Something with more of a domestic-friendlk form-factor/construction might be far less of a challenge to the Mac Pro product line.

But once you get past the whole "where's that fifth box going to go!!??!?!?!?!" conundrum, and the "but its not pro, its not consumer, oh my god, what is it?!?!?!?!?" conundrum (and assuming your head doesn't explode from all this, which apparently they would at 1 infinite loop), you then have to fit it into Apple's pricing structure. Apple doesn't like to confuse their customers. You can't have a high-end MacBook for the same price as a low-end MacBook Pro. Again, we're talking exploding heads here. So each little box on the chart generally have their own price range (within the desktop/laptop rows, not between the four boxes themselves, necessarily). So, the macbooks sell for less then the macbook pros. The mini (the real headless imac) is less then the low-end imac, and the imacs are less then the mac pros.

It's not that complicated. We have three distinct iPod lines - how many heads exploded?

And, using Apple's BTO options, I am able to configure a Macbook that costs more than the cheapest MacBook Pro.

I can also configure a 17" iMac - let alone the 20" and 24" models - to cost more than the cheapest Mac Pro.

Things aren't so cut and dried, and people ain't so stoopid either.

It seems that Apple's "add your own keyboard and mouse" strategy worked for the mini. So why not for a 'midi'? A Mac that would satisfy gamers (and Media Centre wannabes into the bargain.)

I'm at a University where about 80% of the computers are Mac's, but most of the students will not consider a mini because they can't play games on it. It's as simple as that. And Mac Pro's are way too expensive for them too, despite Apple's generous Edu discount..

Possible solutions are that Apple sell a Mac Pro with a single dual-core processor, but I think their margin would be too low if they were to make the hardware competitive with PC's.

Alternatively Apple could make a mini with decent graphics - like the iMac. But that makes the mini more expensive, and many wouldn't benefit from the extra graphics performance. And the mini's too small to offer a PCIe slot which reduces the appeal of it compared to the Mac I'm proposing. That is, an iMac without a screen, with a simplified case (doesn't need the iMac's more expensively engineered case/stand) without the on-board graphics - but with a PCIe16 slot with which thou shalt do what thou willst. Losing the screen instantly eliminates a significant cost in manufacturing. Likewise the use of standard 3.5 SATA drives (and possibly a standard 5.25" Superdrive) reduces slightly the cost versus the mini

And however angry the idea makes some of you, you nevertheless haven't offered any convincing reasons why Apple could not - or indeed should not - attempt to satisfy this area of the computer-buying market,

Also, I think it is more relevant now than at any other point in Apple's history - now that Mac's can run Windows, and those PC owners would like some Mac cool, but won't forsake their PC-only games.

[mhuie]

There is no media center app for the Mac. The closest thing is Front row, which doesn't even come close to the functionality of Windows MCE.

I do hope that Apple is working on a MCE like app that handles PVR functions, as releasing an iTV for $300 seems a bit futile if it has to rely on the host PC to do anything. I'd love to hook up a Mac mini up to my TV and plug in a USB HD tuner, but there is no PVR software for the TV that works as well as MCE. I'm running Vista MCE on a PC tower and it works wonderfully.

[thebunny]

Originally Posted by booboo 

Alternatively Apple could make a mini with decent graphics - like the iMac.

That x1600 in the iMac is a nice card overall but it already doesn't do too well for the current crop of games. You can't turn on AA/AF/HDR even on 1440x900 despite the fact it supports them because it just becomes way too slow. The mini and MacBook should have a x1300 (or at least a x300) because GMA950 just isn't a video card in my book, MacBook and iMac should have a x1800 mobility (or a x1600 on the low end and x1800 on the high end). MacBook Pro is already nice but with a x1800 it would just be a blast. There should be a (Mac Pro)/2 machine with two PCIe slots, not necessarily a tower at all. It doesn't have to be half price of the Mac Pro. I know Mac Pro is a steal (I got one and I love it) but most people just don't need quad core, 16 GB of RAM and a 1KW power supply.

[LouZer]

Originally Posted by booboo 

It's not that complicated. We have three distinct iPod lines - how many heads exploded?

And, using Apple's BTO options, I am able to configure a Macbook that costs more than the cheapest MacBook Pro.

I can also configure a 17" iMac - let alone the 20" and 24" models - to cost more than the cheapest Mac Pro.

Things aren't so cut and dried, and people ain't so stoopid either.

We're not talking BTO, we're talking going into the Apple store and just looking at prices.

And the three distinct iPod lines do cause heads to explode. I was with a friend who wanted a nano, until she found out that it costs the exact same price as a 30GB iPod. What to do, what to do....

And could you tell all the other mac fans that windows users ain't stoopid either. They all seem to think if you use windows, its because you don't think. Or you're an idiot to buy a $700 PC laptop rather than a $1100 macbook, because of all the extras you must get in the macbook (regardless of the fact they save $400).

Originally Posted by booboo 

And however angry the idea makes some of you, you nevertheless haven't offered any convincing reasons why Apple could not - or indeed should not - attempt to satisfy this area of the computer-buying market,

Also, I think it is more relevant now than at any other point in Apple's history - now that Mac's can run Windows, and those PC owners would like some Mac cool, but won't forsake their PC-only games.

First, what makes you think that Apple wants to sell to people who'll just want to run Windows? Or that the PC users would be willing to cheap out on a headless imac when they could get a really good gaming computer for just a little more $$ (albeit not a mac). A friend of mine went high-end on some Dell gaming box, plus 20" monitor, al for $2000 (that's with a quality video card, quality sound card, and all those other add-on benefits you can only get in a Mac Pro).

But the only reason people are angry is just the stupidity of arguing the same thing over and over when the argument is moot. There is NO reason apple could not satisfy this area. Just like there wasn't last year, two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, etc, etc, etc. They just choose not to. In case you haven't noticed, Apple only gets into limited markets. They have no real BTO machine, except the MacPro. They have no sub-categorized product lines. Examples: You can't get a computer with a built-in screen (laptop or desktop) WITHOUT getting an iSight. Why? Is everyone clamoring for video-conferencing? No, its just cheaper for Apple to make them all the same (and keeps their prices up, a MacBook sans camera would cost $999, breaking that mark again, but it ain't happening). They don't make sub-notebooks, nor have different laptops for different types of users (what ever happened to the glory days of being able to use 2 batteries in your book at once, rather then having to swap???).

As for "should not", that's for them to decide. But you need to take into account who will buy these machines and how it will affect their revenue streams. If sales of the Mac Semi-pro cannabalize the Mac Pro lines, where's the benefit to apple? And what of all the imac buyers who'll stiff the imac, get the more expansive machine for less money, and then use the savings to buy a separate monitor (not from Apple). There's more sales apple isn't enjoying. Apple likes the concept of getting the consumer to believe the monitor and computer should go together, because they could sell them together on the rebuys. (This is why I won't buy an iMac. )

To look at this just as "Oh, if apple offered these, they'll sell tons!" completely misses the point of where those sales might be coming from. Clones was a great idea that people swooped up to buy, except their sales came at the expense of Apple. You don't seem to be looking at those aspects.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by itguy05 

Because a Cablecard eliminates the box. It contains the descrabling and tuner that is needed to get the channels without the box. So you won't certify a gneric Mac or PC for the CC, but you certify the PCI, USB, or Firewire solution the card goes into.

No, you can't. Please read the CableCard spec.

CableLabs will only certify complete systems; in this case, that means the PC+card reader+OS+apps. Some OEMs (Dell, HP, etc) will put together a PC (that they have passed by CableLabs) with a card reader and the OS/apps (Vista MCE) and sell that. But you can't just buy the card reader and plug it into your Mac and expect anything useful to happen.

[P]

Originally Posted by mhuie 

There is no media center app for the Mac. The closest thing is Front row, which doesn't even come close to the functionality of Windows MCE.

Replace "Front Row" with "iPod" and "Windows MCE" with just about any MP3-player from Rio or Sandisk or whoever. Statement is still true - and somehow Apple still sells a few iPods every month. Lots of functionality isn't always a good thing, and while I can agree that Front Row could use a few more features (and the iPod a radio), I don't want Windows MCE, and I doubt Apple will make one.

[booboo]

Originally Posted by LouZer 

First, what makes you think that Apple wants to sell to people who'll just want to run Windows? Or that the PC users would be willing to cheap out on a headless imac when they could get a really good gaming computer for just a little more $$ (albeit not a mac). A friend of mine went high-end on some Dell gaming box, plus 20" monitor, al for $2000 (that's with a quality video card, quality sound card, and all those other add-on benefits you can only get in a Mac Pro).

But the only reason people are angry is just the stupidity of arguing the same thing over and over when the argument is moot. There is NO reason apple could not satisfy this area. Just like there wasn't last year, two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, etc, etc, etc. They just choose not to. In case you haven't noticed, Apple only gets into limited markets. They have no real BTO machine, except the MacPro. They have no sub-categorized product lines. . . . ..

Well I don't agree.

I don't think Apple intentionally ignores any segment of the market, I think they're trying to cover all bases, and plug the gaps where they arise - and that goes for Mac hardware, software, the iPod range, key peripherals and the music available on iTunes. To intentionally ignore some significant area of the computer-buying public would be like not selling major popular artists on iTunes. The reason Apple isn't selling the Beatles on iTunes is not because they've decided they don't want the sales.

The Mac Pro's probably have more BTO options than any previous Mac ever. They even made a big deal out of this fact in the advertising - specifically citing the huge number of different permutations.

Look at the huge range of Apple peripherals and software and non-computer products available - more than ever before, from mice and keyboard options, to iPods, speakers, iSight, Airport, plus a whole gamut of creative consumer applications and their 'pro' equivalents. (or is it the other way round?)

Going after a limited market my a$$!

That was the excuse from the beige days of dwindling sales, no longer applicable.

Another reason why the situation is different today than it was 'two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, etc, etc, etc' is that Apple have decided to go after Windows users directly. They even have an application called 'Bootcamp' which you might have heard of? It's not intended to make it easy for Mac users to discover the delights of Windows XP and buy a Dell, but to entice more - not fewer - people to buy Apple hardware.

This move is significant because there's a lot of disatisfaction amongst Windows users, as Apple seem to have realised even if you haven't, and the possibility of running Windows on your Mac removes that final obstacle - the fear of abandoning some important application, database or game only available on the Windows platform. (Guild Wars anyone?) That's why things are different today.

It's not like it's even a major deal. All Apple need to do is get Intel to knock up a version of the iMac's motherboard with a PCIe slot instead of the on-board PCIe graphics. In case you're not aware, that's pretty much a bog-standard entry-level Intel motherboard. The point is that Apple could easily make as much profit - or more - from such a Mac that even if it did canibalize Mac Pro sales (which I doubt) Apple would still benefit. Their margins on the Mac Pro are (or at least were) pretty thin.

In other words, Apple could charge $100-200 more the Mac I propose than the mini. And how much more would it cost to build than the mini? Nothing. Maybe a slightly faster processor (but a cheaper 3.5" drive - and maybe a cheaper standard 5.25 optical drive - to compensate) and a few BTO options for the video card.

Would you buy a Mac with a PCIe slot, a couple of 3.5 drive bays, dual 1.83 processor, starting at £499 or so?

I've ordered mine already

Or are you against any new product - on principle - until Apple make it?

Bring back the one button mouse?

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by MagnusDredd 

I have not entirely made up my mind as to what I want to do yet, but sometimes the prospect of building a beige-box PC and and hacking OSX to run on it seems like a decent idea.

Highly recommended...Apple doesn't offer a 'Pro-sumer' Mac so I made my own. 2.6GHz P4, 1GB, 160GB, X300SE graphics (actually I'm using the GMA900, but that card is super cheap), all for under $400, and faster than a Mini.

[LouZer]

Originally Posted by booboo 

Well I don't agree.

I don't think Apple intentionally ignores any segment of the market, I think they're trying to cover all bases, and plug the gaps where they arise - and that goes for Mac hardware, software, the iPod range, key peripherals and the music available on iTunes. To intentionally ignore some significant area of the computer-buying public would be like not selling major popular artists on iTunes. The reason Apple isn't selling the Beatles on iTunes is not because they've decided they don't want the sales.

So basically we have two options. Either Apple does intentional ignores segments of the market, or they're just complete idiots who can't chew gum and walk at the same time. You say this is a big potential market. If so, then how in the world could Apple NOT be offering your golorious computer if they weren't intentionally ignoring it? Its somehow just missed them? No one has offered it up as an option? You're the first person to point it out?

People have been clamoring for this for years, yet nothing from Apple. It would seem they are intentionally ignoring this market. Just like they ignore sub-notebooks, tabletPCs, PDAs, etc, etc, etc.

Look at the huge range of Apple peripherals and software and non-computer products available - more than ever before, from mice and keyboard options, to iPods, speakers, iSight, Airport, plus a whole gamut of creative consumer applications and their 'pro' equivalents. (or is it the other way round?)

Going after a limited market my a$$!

That was the excuse from the beige days of dwindling sales, no longer applicable.

The point isn't that they're going after some small market. The point is that they limit themselves to specific areas of the computing buying public. Please re-read the post. "Except for the MacPro, configuration options just suck" (or something like that). Peripherals and third-party options aren't 'configurable' settings in any sense of the world. You can get the same crap at Dell, too. But go over to dell and see all the options you have, both in different models and configuration options.

Another reason why the situation is different today than it was 'two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, etc, etc, etc' is that Apple have decided to go after Windows users directly. They even have an application called 'Bootcamp' which you might have heard of? It's not intended to make it easy for Mac users to discover the delights of Windows XP and buy a Dell, but to entice more - not fewer - people to buy Apple hardware.

How does having Bootcamp mean make your situation different? Are you saying that Apple should now care what PC users want, rather then what Apple users have been clamoring for all these years? That's nice. So its OK for Apple to sh*t on its loyal customers, but now that they want switchers, give THEM what they want? Yeah, that's the kind of company I want to stand behind...

This move is significant because there's a lot of disatisfaction amongst Windows users, as Apple seem to have realised even if you haven't, and the possibility of running Windows on your Mac removes that final obstacle - the fear of abandoning some important application, database or game only available on the Windows platform. (Guild Wars anyone?) That's why things are different today.

But most computer users won't, nor want to, deal with dual-booting different OSes. Ergo, if they buy a mac because it can run their important apps (and, again, why would they do this instead of just buying a Dell?), they'll leave it booting windows. If apple offered Parrallels, then it would be a truly different story.

It's not like it's even a major deal. All Apple need to do is get Intel to knock up a version of the iMac's motherboard with a PCIe slot instead of the on-board PCIe graphics. In case you're not aware, that's pretty much a bog-standard entry-level Intel motherboard. The point is that Apple could easily make as much profit - or more - from such a Mac that even if it did canibalize Mac Pro sales (which I doubt) Apple would still benefit. Their margins on the Mac Pro are (or at least were) pretty thin.

Then if that's all apple has to do, how come they haven't yet? I know, I know, they haven't talked to you yet to discuss how this will make them the world's greatest computer company! Or, more likely, the DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THIS MARKET!

Oh, and MacPro margins thin? 20-30% margins are thin? Don't think so. Apple loves their margins. They don't do cheap-o computers because of the thin margins. And how you think it wouldn't cannabalize mac pro sales is beyond me. There's a lot of mac users out there who buy the pros for the expansion options you're talking about, not so much the quad cores.

Would you buy a Mac with a PCIe slot, a couple of 3.5 drive bays, dual 1.83 processor, starting at £499 or so?

Well, once I figure out the exchange rate, sure I would. As would a lot of people. Just as you suggested, and how so many other people have postulated over the past many years! And that's the point. Nothing has changed now since before the mini was released (in fact, this would have been a better computer then the mini, and a more logical place to start, yet, again, Apple decided to go stylish and small rather then just standard 'what people want').

I've ordered mine already

Well, if you've ordered it, what are you complaining about?

Bring back the one button mouse?

Technically Apple hasn't even embraced the multi-button mouse. They don't even make a two-button mouse, technically. They had to be 'stylish' about it (as they always are - style over substance) and do fancy sensors to see if you're right-clicking, which has not been very well received, rather then just stick in a second button. Couldn't do that, that's what everyone else does. (actually they can't do your mini-tower, because everyone else does that too). And if you want right-clicking on a laptop, its time for an external mouse, too.

And you're talking to the wrong person. I still use the one button mouse that came with my pro, as well as the one-button wireless model I have hooked to the mini. Hell, I deal with Windows users at work, and they never seem to understand what I mean when I say "click on this" and "right-click on that", they always do the opposite (and these are computer programmers, not just someone who uses windows to play solitaire).

[LouZer]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

Highly recommended...Apple doesn't offer a 'Pro-sumer' Mac so I made my own. 2.6GHz P4, 1GB, 160GB, X300SE graphics (actually I'm using the GMA900, but that card is super cheap), all for under $400, and faster than a Mini.

Ewwww. A beige box running OS X. That's so anti-Apple. There's people who'd slap you down for doing something so 'heinous'. Costs be damned!

[Simon]

The problem with that is rather that - apart from being illegal - you're using a hacked OS which could be broken by any update. There's no guarantee that the system will always work or that you will always be able to update to the most current OS version.

[NordicMan]

Hey, BooBoo, have you seen this? A little fuel for the fire. Who knows, we will see.Smarthouse - Display Panels

I know the title is about this little tablet control, but contained in this story is some industry report about an Apple entertainment centre device.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by LouZer 

Ewwww. A beige box running OS X. That's so anti-Apple. There's people who'd slap you down for doing something so 'heinous'. Costs be damned!

Actually it's a black and silver Antec silent case. Quite stylish.

Originally Posted by Simon 

The problem with that is rather that - apart from being illegal - you're using a hacked OS which could be broken by any update. There's no guarantee that the system will always work or that you will always be able to update to the most current OS version.

True. There's the biggest problem. I'm actually still on 10.4.6 right now but I'm moving up to .8 this afternoon hopefully. It's not for the faint at heart.

[booboo]

Originally Posted by NordicMan 

Hey, BooBoo, have you seen this? A little fuel for the fire. Who knows, we will see.Smarthouse - Display Panels

I know the title is about this little tablet control, but contained in this story is some industry report about an Apple entertainment centre device.

Thanks for that - I know they do have the iTV thingy in the works but it's not really what I want - I want to use a dedicated computer for a media/games centre. But these are certainly interesting times for Apple fans, and quite what is on the horizon we can often only guess.

As far as running Mac OS X on a generic PC I probably would be up for that if it was at least semi-officially sanctioned, i.e. there was an idiot-proof 'Bootcamp' method of installation which will probably never happen.

This is because I've wasted so much time trying to get Linux installations to run MythTV - all those dependencies, and kernel updates required to see my DTV card, were an absolute nightmare to install. Eventually, I gave up.

Then I saw a friends Miglia USB mini DTT/EyeTV combination running flawlessly on his MacBook - a £60/$99 USB device that blew my PC-based solution away for ease of use, reliability (it has never dropped even one frame) and price, I quickly decided I don't ever want to stray that far from Mac OS X again . . .

[itguy05]

Originally Posted by mduell 

No, you can't. Please read the CableCard spec.

CableLabs will only certify complete systems; in this case, that means the PC+card reader+OS+apps. Some OEMs (Dell, HP, etc) will put together a PC (that they have passed by CableLabs) with a card reader and the OS/apps (Vista MCE) and sell that. But you can't just buy the card reader and plug it into your Mac and expect anything useful to happen.

And I imagine when Vista comes out, MS will lobby for that restriction to be loosened. Probably what will happen is similar to what Tivo is facing - they have to submit their encryption to CableLabs for aceptance.

However, I could care less - I'm fairly happy with my cable co's DVR + my DVD burner which means I can still keep decent copies of my stuff.

[itguy05]

Originally Posted by LouZer 

And could you tell all the other mac fans that windows users ain't stoopid either. They all seem to think if you use windows, its because you don't think. Or you're an idiot to buy a $700 PC laptop rather than a $1100 macbook, because of all the extras you must get in the macbook (regardless of the fact they save $400).

And everyone conveniently forgets that PC vendors sell boatloads of the > $1,000 laptops. You want quality, you pay for it. You want a $700 laptop, you get a POS for the most part. There are exceptions, but on average, the sub $1000 notebooks leave a lot to be desired.

really good gaming computer for just a little more $$ (albeit not a mac). A friend of mine went high-end on some Dell gaming box, plus 20" monitor, al for $2000 (that's with a quality video card, quality sound card, and all those other add-on benefits you can only get in a Mac Pro).

Your friend still got a POS Dell. That's like tricking out a Kia. You get a $10k car, but it's still a Kia. For $2k you in the PC world, you can do much better than Dell.

Been there, done that, we suffered with Dell for 2 years. Now nobody wants the POS's in our company.

them all the same (and keeps their prices up, a MacBook sans camera would cost $999, breaking that mark again, but it ain't happening).

They've been there before. I'm still wondering how they get past those companies that have strict No Camera policies.

Apple likes the concept of getting the consumer to believe the monitor and computer should go together, because they could sell them together on the rebuys. (This is why I won't buy an iMac. )

Let's just say this: I used to think this way. Now I've come to the conclusion that I love more resolution. And every time you want more resolution, be it an LCD or a CRT, you pretty much must buy a new monitor.

Clones was a great idea that people swooped up to buy, except their sales came at the expense of Apple. You don't seem to be looking at those aspects.

And if Apple were smart about licensing, the net to the bottom line would be 0. Make up for it in licensing and OS costs. You loose your 20% margin on hardware? Make it up on the software - 10% and 10% on licensing your technology. Rumores have it 1 Major Windows PC OEM has already indicated they would ditch Windows at the drop of a hat. I wonder how many more would?

Ergo, if they buy a mac because it can run their important apps (and, again, why would they do this instead of just buying a Dell?), they'll leave it booting windows.

Because I'd say the majority of Windows users are unsatisfied. They want something else but don't want to leave some app behind. For them a dual boot is the way to go. I still say one of those secret features Jobs was talking about for Tiger is either built in virtualization (parallels) or WINE functionality....

People I work with are now looking at Macs for just this reason - they can try something new and return to the familiar if need be. These are the same people that, just 3 years ago looked at me like I had 3 heads when I said I use a Mac.