[Socially Awkward Solo]

I love the G5's. I think they are great, but there are several downsides that worry me a bit. This is not a bitch thread. I just want to know what I am getting into before I get one.

Here is what I came up with:

Airport is no longer has built in antennas. If you want Airport you have to plug in this LARGE plug to the G5 adding about 3 inches to the depth and making it EASY to steal.

The RAM has to be installed in pairs. Even though it has 8 slots you really only end up with 4. You want 512 RAM you HAVE to install two 256 chips.

Bluetooth is also just a plug in the back, easy to steal.

Optical Drive. Only room for 1. No longer can Apple brag about burning with a superdrive and encoding with a CD at the same time. More practical use it to copy disks (legally).

PCI slots. Only one is high speed on the 2 high end models.

Firewire. Even though it has 2 firewire 400 ports one is on the front and you don't want a plug running outside of the beauty all the time.

9 fans but only 7 are controlled by the computer. 2 run all the time full blast.

No more pro speaker port.

Anything else?

[The Jackalope]

I mirror what you said, but have to ad "I don't have mine yet".

But really, the plug-in airport and lack of built in bluetooth suck ass.

[Superchicken]

I hear it has a religious prefference so you'll probably hate it

[nvaughan3]

Anything else?

Yeah, only room for 2 hard drives.

[Ganesha]

What?! Still no floppy drive!!!

[Ozmodiar]

Originally posted by Ganesha:
What?! Still no floppy drive!!!

This is an outrage! How am I supposed to transport a megabyte of data from one machine to the next?!

[Eug Wanker]

The RAM has to be installed in pairs. Even though it has 8 slots you really only end up with 4. You want 512 RAM you HAVE to install two 256 chips

This is actually a good thing, well sorta. If it were designed to use single chips it would be one of two options.

1) The memory would be INSANELY expensive.
or
2) The computer would run at half the bandwidth.

There are Intel chipsets which run at 800 MHz like the Apple chipset. Well, these CAN use single DIMMs, but suffer a major bandwidth slowdown if you run it this way. We don't know for sure yet, but it seems that Apple has simply refused to allow this option to kill performance.

And remember, 8 slots is a lot of memory. 512 MB DIMMS are relatively inexpensive these days. For your purposes, 2x256 plus 2x512 (total 1.5 GB) wouldn't break the bank, but it would be more than sufficient for quite some time unless you got into hardcore.... err... I mean.... heavy duty... video or something.

PCI slots. Only one is high speed on the 2 high end models.

All three PCI (X) slots are high speed. One is just even higher speed. 2 run at 100 and 1 runs at 133. Normal PCI slots, as found in the 1.6 GHz, run at much lower speed, at 33 MHz. But even 33 MHz is fine for 95% of people at this time.

One thing you missed. This thing is gonna get dusty FAST. Not only do you need AppleCare and DiskWarrior, but a monthly supply of cans of compressed air to blow out all the dust.

2 run all the time full blast.

Well, it depends on the spin rate and the bearings on the fan. If they're quiet fans it shouldn't be a big deal. Dunno yet though.

P.S. I'm sure it will be louder than my PC though. Every fan in there is running at very low speed. I can get away with it though, since I'm running a relatively slow Radeon 9100 and Celeron 1.4.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
.One thing you missed. This thing is gonna get dusty FAST. Not only do you need AppleCare and DiskWarrior, but a monthly supply of cans of compressed air to blow out all the dust.

Uh ya but they air in your room will be nice and clean. Just get a swiffer and wipe it down or something.

So how much is DDR RAM? Does the 2 chips have anything to do with error checking?

I remember the 604 chips were also faster if you installed it in pairs.

[scottiB]

The serial ATA drives can be a drag for those who wish to migrate current, large drives.

Current lack of Apple designed stereo speakers to use (call me vain).

Daisy chaining the firewire devices can limit to only the rear port being used. The front is more beneficial for DV cams. Doesn't an 800>400 adapter come with the G5? Or is that only PB 17"?

Why would you only want 2x256MB when Crucial sells a 512MB stick for $90? This is only a limiting factor for the 1.6 (where you'd really need to remove the stock 2x128s to max it). In the 1.8 and 2x2.0, you still have 6 slots available (I realize really 3, but are you going to spend $720 to raise the memory to 4 GBs? If you are, kickass).

Will this G5 being in an office/public space that has network access solely via AirPort? I only ask because you stressed theft twice.

As a DP/800 owner with its PCI slots filled and 4x120GB drives installed, I can empathize. When I do migrate (not for a couple years), it'll hurt. Like when the iMac was introduced, though, there's an adjustment/adaption period--like spending $180 on a USB Zip drive (though this could be a bit pricier).

Once you feel the speed though, I'd bet you won't give a sh!t about these limitations.

[Weezer]

I really didnt know where to put this, but wanted to ask anyway. Can someone explain to me why the 1.6 beats the 1.8...?

http://a832.g.akamai.net/7/832/51/fd...st06232003.jpg

[scottiB]

Originally posted by Weezer:
I really didnt know where to put this, but wanted to ask anyway. Can someone explain to me why the 1.6 beats the 1.8...?

http://a832.g.akamai.net/7/832/51/fd...st06232003.jpg

They reversed the 1.6 and 1.8 in the legend. It should read 2.0, 1.8, 1.6.

[Eug Wanker]

I really didnt know where to put this, but wanted to ask anyway. Can someone explain to me why the 1.6 beats the 1.8...?

I think they probably fscked up the graph.

Why would you only want 2x256MB when Crucial sells a 512MB stick for $90? This is only a limiting factor for the 1.6 (where you'd really need to remove the stock 2x128s to max it). In the 1.8 and 2x2.0, you still have 6 slots available (I realize really 3, but are you going to spend $720 to raise the memory to 4 GBs? If you are, kickass).

On the 1.8, the bare minimum you can buy is 2x256. If you upgrade to 2x512, that's another US$250. So for $250, you get a total of 1 GB.

You're better off getting 2x256 and then buying another 2x512 from a third party like Crucial, for $180. ie. For less money you get 1.5 GB of memory.

And if you're hell bent on getting only 1 GB of RAM total, an additional 2x256 of Crucial RAM is only $96. So you have a grand total of paying an extra $6 premium for Apple's choice of higher performance. Sounds pretty good to me.

So how much is DDR RAM? Does the 2 chips have anything to do with error checking?

AFAIK, no for error checking. Good quality 512 MB PC3200 DDR400 is US$90. Cheap stuff is well... much cheaper.

Uh ya but they air in your room will be nice and clean. Just get a swiffer and wipe it down or something

Doesn't work that way. Computer fans are great for sucking in dust, unless you live in a chip-factory clean-room or something.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by scottiB:
Will this G5 being in an office/public space that has network access solely via AirPort? I only ask because you stressed theft twice.

Bluetooth yes, they will get stolen.

The soundsticks look great with anything but it uses USB which SOMETIMES stutters.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Doesn't work that way. Computer fans are great for sucking in dust, unless you live in a chip-factory clean-room or something.

No what I mean is if the G5 is sucking up the dust then your room WILL be dust free.

[scottiB]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
On the 1.8, the bare minimum you can buy is 2x256. If you upgrade to 2x512, that's another US$250. So for $250, you get a total of 1 GB.

You're better off getting 2x256 and then buying another 2x512 from a third party like Crucial, for $180. ie. For less money you get 1.5 GB of memory.

And if you're hell bent on getting only 1 GB of RAM total, an additional 2x256 of Crucial RAM is only $96. So you have a grand total of paying an extra $6 premium for Apple's choice of higher performance. Sounds pretty good to me.

My thought with the 1.8 was to pull all Apple memory and order 8x512 from Crucial. Heh. 4 GBs--wow. That'd be cool.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
No what I mean is if the G5 is sucking up the dust then your room WILL be dust free.

Not only is the G5 fast, it's got the AIR PURIFIER EXTREME!

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Not only is the G5 fast, it's got the AIR PURIFIER EXTREME!

For $5000 it better!

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
For $5000 it better!

$4199 for dual 2.0, 160 GB HD, 512 MB RAM, Radeon 9600 Pro, 4X SuperDrive, and Air Purifier Extreme�

$250-300 for another 2x512 MB PC3200 RAM locally.

Total $4450 plus tax. $5120. Ouch.

[DeathMan]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:

Airport is no longer has built in antennas. If you want Airport you have to plug in this LARGE plug to the G5 adding about 3 inches to the depth and making it EASY to steal.

Firstly, I would rather take advantage of the Gigabit ethernet built in, rather than network a pro machine on relatively slow wireless setup.

Second, you could say the same thing about your keyboard or your mouse as well. Or speakers, tablet, or any other external device.

The RAM has to be installed in pairs. Even though it has 8 slots you really only end up with 4. You want 512 RAM you HAVE to install two 256 chips.

this is NOT a big deal. 2 256 are about as much as a 512 anyway. The price difference outweighs the technical reasons not to.

Bluetooth is also just a plug in the back, easy to steal.

See the reply for the airport theft thing. Where do you work, man?

Optical Drive. Only room for 1. No longer can Apple brag about burning with a superdrive and encoding with a CD at the same time. More practical use it to copy disks (legally).

This one could be an issue for some people. Since I got my superdrive, I haven't once wished I had another drive. When you make a copy of a CD its better to img the cd to the computer, then burn the CD. You're less likely to get coasters. I wouldn't want to pay for an extra drive I'll use like once every six months, when there is a perfectly resonable, even more reliable, albiet slower, workaround.

PCI slots. Only one is high speed on the 2 high end models.

I don't know anything about this. I had a PCI SCSI card, but I don't use that SCSI scanner because you have to restart the computer every time you want to scan something, or leave the scanner on all the time. So I use a USB scanner. Looking forward to upgrading to a USB 2.0 however.

Firewire. Even though it has 2 firewire 400 ports one is on the front and you don't want a plug running outside of the beauty all the time.

Hubs are great. I'm glad there is one on the front. Easier for my iPod, and my Digital Camera.

9 fans but only 7 are controlled by the computer. 2 run all the time full blast.

It's supposedly half as loud as the current macs, so its a step in the right direction.

No more pro speaker port.

The built in speaker sucked, and it looked weird since the quicksilvers came out.

And for those complaining about not enough hard drive bays: A HALF TERABYTE IS NOT ENOUGH? FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. :exasperatedSmiley:

[nvaughan3]

And for those complaining about not enough hard drive bays: A HALF TERABYTE IS NOT ENOUGH? FOR CRYING OUT LOUD

1. No. I could easily fill 500GB, half with just MP3's. The other half with videos and DVD rips/SVCD's.

2. RAID

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by DeathMan:

See the reply for the airport theft thing. Where do you work, man?

This one could be an issue for some people. Since I got my superdrive, I haven't once wished I had another drive. When you make a copy of a CD its better to img the cd to the computer, then burn the CD. You're less likely to get coasters. I wouldn't want to pay for an extra drive I'll use like once every six months, when there is a perfectly resonable, even more reliable, albiet slower, workaround.

It's supposedly half as loud as the current macs, so its a step in the right direction.

I work in an office environment so anyone can take a tiny little bluetooth plug.

Why is it better to make a disk image rather then a direct copy of a CD, that takes waaay longer.

The G5's are quieter under normal use in a normal room temp. What is normal use anyway?

[nvaughan3]

Why is it better to make a disk image rather then a direct copy of a CD, that takes waaay longer.

It isn't, unless you've got a crappy (slow) computer and/or slow drives.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by nvaughan3:
It isn't, unless you've got a crappy (slow) computer and/or slow drives.

So copying to the hard drive and then burning it to a disk is faster then right from one disk to another?

Right.

[nvaughan3]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
So copying to the hard drive and then burning it to a disk is faster then right from one disk to another?

Right.

His point was that in older computers (slow) or those whose opticals drives were slow, you would sometimes get coasters. This generally is not an issue anymore with a)good burning software b)a processor faster than my TI-86 and c)quality optical drives.

[DeathMan]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:

Why is it better to make a disk image rather then a direct copy of a CD, that takes waaay longer.

Like I said, it might be an issue for some people, just not for me. I rarely copy CDs. I did say that it is slower to do the disk image thing.

I guess the only time I ever tried making a copy like that was with a crappy drive, cause it coastered twice, and I ended up having to disk image it anyway. So for me it was the better choice. I'm sure with this bus, it wouldn't be a problem. It was running Windows 2000, after all.

[tooki]

I guess it's not clear: only the Bluetooth ANTENNA is external -- it's still an internal module! It is not a USB module that can be removed and used elsewhere.

tooki

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
Uh ya but they air in your room will be nice and clean. Just get a swiffer and wipe it down or something.

So how much is DDR RAM? Does the 2 chips have anything to do with error checking?

I remember the 604 chips were also faster if you installed it in pairs.

I wish these things had ECC. This is a workstation feature which would underline Apple's intentions. Downside: ECC DDR is significantly more expensive.

But if Apple wants to be taken seriously in the server space, the XServe needs ECC RAM (e. g. for databases).

[galarneau]

Personally, I think the external airport antennae is cool. This makes it easy to hook a larger one up if you need greater range.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by galarneau:
Personally, I think the external airport antennae is cool. This makes it easy to hook a larger one up if you need greater range.

I agree. It also adds flexibility for antenna placement.

[NYCFarmboy]

On the firewire plug in on the front..

I LOVE that.. Many times I hook up a digital camera/video and hate having to get down and crack my head open under my desk almost just to plug something in for a bit.

Its perfect, I'd never keep anything plugged into it long term, but for quick transfers from video cameras its WONDERFUL> THANKS APPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[zigzag]

Any speculation whether Apple will come out with new speakers? Ported from the stereo-out, or USB, or what?

[tooki]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I wish these things had ECC. This is a workstation feature which would underline Apple's intentions. Downside: ECC DDR is significantly more expensive.

But if Apple wants to be taken seriously in the server space, the XServe needs ECC RAM (e. g. for databases).

When I checked RAM prices on Tuesday, ECC RAM was about $10 more expensive for a 512MB module.

What I don't know, of course, is how much cost it would add to the motherboard.

And finally, ECC RAM requires some sort of support in the OS, so that the error can be reported.

tooki

[bamburg dunes]

One minor anoyying thing is that to install ram you ahve to pull off the side cover, then remove a fan, or two and the nget to the ram, sounds like a PC.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by bamburg dunes:
One minor anoyying thing is that to install ram you ahve to pull off the side cover, then remove a fan, or two and the nget to the ram, sounds like a PC.

That is what I THOUGHT also but the fans don't have cables and how often do you really add RAM. Once a year?

"Ive pulled out the twin fans for the chips, indicating the lack of a power cord. Because the fans have to be removed to insert more RAM into the motherboard -- an operation likely to be done only once or twice in the machine's lifetime -- they don't have a cord. Instead, they slide into a pair of power slots. "

[bamburg dunes]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
That is what I THOUGHT also but the fans don't have cables and how often do you really add RAM. Once a year?

"Ive pulled out the twin fans for the chips, indicating the lack of a power cord. Because the fans have to be removed to insert more RAM into the motherboard -- an operation likely to be done only once or twice in the machine's lifetime -- they don't have a cord. Instead, they slide into a pair of power slots. "

AHA!!!!, just the answer I like to hear. On a similar note, the idea of a cabeless fan is good step; in other posts I keep harking on about SGI's since I use one every day at work and home, but so much of the technologies that I see apearing now have been in these boxes for years, and it's great.

It's good to see Apple taking this route too. In the Octane I use, the motherboard just pulls out from the back, so do the fans, pci cage, and XIO slots; the drives are all on sleds which just pull out too. So handy when having to shunt about various disks witht hours of film on them.

[Nep2ne]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
I love the G5's. I think they are great, but there are several downsides that worry me a bit. This is not a bitch thread. I just want to know what I am getting into before I get one.

(snip)...

Anything else?

They create too much heat to merit 9 separate fans. I haven't gotten a good look at the size of the heat sink, but judging by the last rev of G4s it should be massive.

I don't know what everyone else uses their machines for, but 90% of us will likely be happy for the next 2+ years on a G4. speed-wise. Benchmarks, pah! Give me a solid, cocoa-ized OS (Panther) and I'll be happy...

That's why I just ordered mine (dual 1.25G G4), now that the prices are down. Can't wait! Finally making the leap out of G3 land.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

At work the Mirror Door Dual 1.25GHz actually HEAT up the room. Seriously, we have to open the window or crank the AC since we got the thing. You put your hand to the back and very warm air is always shooting out.

I hope the G5's aren't worse.

[Ken Masters]

One optical Drive Bay,

Two Hard disk bays.

Geeze Lueeze,

I can't beleive apple sacrifice functionality for the sake of making the insides look more PRETTIER!!!

I would rather take a crap!

[clarkgoble]

Regarding serial hard drives. Places already sell adaptors for about $30 for existing IDE drives. I'd say, however, that I'd be interested in the speed and consistency of firewire 800 drives. (Are there any out there yet?) I've heard that the conversion up and down make Firewire 400 "sputter" somewhat, rendering them unsuable for heavy DV applications.

Not that this is an issue to me mind you. But for the high end graphics people they need three high speed drives that Firewire 400 isn't fast enough and consistent enough for.

For me, to be honest, external drives are fine. (Although they seem a tad too expensive if you ask me)

[hardcat1970]

not enough hard drive space.

same mouse and keyboard? i hope at least they change the color from white though.

[Simon]

OK, here are my own issues with the new G5:

- price - I think the price on the high end is fine, make the geeks pay, but the low-end "yikes"-type model should be 1699.

- mouse/keyboard shouldn't remain iMac/iBook/eMac-white, but get some Al or something that goes well with Al.

- too many (3) different motherboards. It would have probably been cheaper for Apple to go with one design less.


I see the problem with the missing three inches on the top for an additional optical and two additional HDs for some people out there, but I personally couldn't care less.

Otherwise, I love it. If I had a tad more cash, I'd get the 1.8GHz model right off the bat to replace one of my P4s at work. Unfortunately I was saving for the revised 12" PowerBook, so if I get the PowerMac now I won't be able to get the PowerBook.

[silverlode]

Originally posted by Ken Masters:
Geeze Lueeze,

I can't beleive apple sacrifice functionality for the sake of making the insides look more PRETTIER!!!

I would rather take a crap!

Well, of course. Taking a crap is good for you and also feels nice.

Blah blah blah. Look, obviously the 970's put out an enormous amount of heat - they're not even trying to hide the fact. Just take a look at the internals of the G5 - the heatsinks are HUGE. The only way to add more drive bays, optical drive bays, pci slots, etc. would be to make the thing another 2 1/2 inches taller. When it's already OVER 3 INCHES TALLER THAN THE G4. I, for one, love the new design even though I wish it were a little smaller.

Apple put everything in there that they could without making the G5 case a hideous beast. Drive space? You've got firewire ports. (And by the way you can daisy-chain firewire devices.) Optical drive? Again Firewire ports. The lowend model should be cheaper? Take off the Superdrive (which no lowend models had standard up to this point) and it's $1799.

Originally posted by Ken Masters:
Geeze Lueeze,

I can't beleive apple sacrifice functionality for the sake of making the insides look more PRETTIER!!

They didn't. The beauty of the inside follows the need for cooling and space efficiency. Making the inside less beautiful would not give you more drive space. In fact the opposite is probably true.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I wish these things had ECC. This is a workstation feature which would underline Apple's intentions. Downside: ECC DDR is significantly more expensive.

But if Apple wants to be taken seriously in the server space, the XServe needs ECC RAM (e. g. for databases).

ECC RAM is, for the most part, a waste and aside from being 2X more expensive, it's a bit slower than non-ECC.

http://www.computer-memory-upgrade-s...vs-non-ecc.htm

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
Regarding serial hard drives. Places already sell adaptors for about $30 for existing IDE drives. I'd say, however, that I'd be interested in the speed and consistency of firewire 800 drives.

Serial ATA drives are widely available now. Why go with the MUCH more expensive Firewire 800 drives? As for the Serial ATA to Parallel ATA converters, they would work, but may not fit in the confines of the new G5 case.

The only way to add more drive bays, optical drive bays, pci slots, etc. would be to make the thing another 2 1/2 inches taller. When it's already OVER 3 INCHES TALLER THAN THE G4.

Actually, the height of an optical drive bay is about 1.75 inches, or about 4.5 cm. If you raise the height 1.75" to fit an optical drive, you also add the capability to add another hard drive if you look at the case design:



But yeah, it's already 51 cm high. Go much higher and it won't fit underneath desks anymore. Adding another optical bay would increase the height almost another 5 cm, to 56 cm. One of my PCs (which has 4 optical bays but not so good airflow BTW) is 59 cm, and it doesn't fit properly under some desks, esp. if I add the stand to it (which adds another few cm). On that PC, the stand is beneficial, since air is drawn in from the bottom. On the Power Mac G5 the air comes in from the front, so presumably the G5 bottom stand part didn't need to be so high. I wonder if they kept it mainly for looks.

It's too bad though, a single optical bay is quite limiting for some people. I've gone Firewire myself because I like sharing my drives between two computers and I like having my burner on my desk, but it does add to the cost for a single-computer setup.

Note also that there is rumour that Apple is possibly getting into the Firewire drive business. Even if they aren't, Lacie makes some pretty nice ones that would match the G5 IIRC. I get the impression however, that neither Apple nor Lacie will be selling the enclosures alone. It wouldn't be ideal anyway, since there would have to be custom bezels for all sorts of drives to make them look good, and it makes it problematic for iTunes and Finder compatibility.

[Skywalkers new Hand]

These are the anntenna's I was talking about:

[awcopus]

That optical audio in on the back is very exciting. Does this mean I can hook up my DVD player with optical out directly to the Mac and record 5.1 channel surround sound? Is there an audio application that can take advantage of this possibility?

[silverlode]

Originally posted by awcopus:
That optical audio in on the back is very exciting. Does this mean I can hook up my DVD player with optical out directly to the Mac and record 5.1 channel surround sound? Is there an audio application that can take advantage of this possibility?

For now you'd need to go pro audio like Logic or Nuendo. Pro Tools LE, the non-$10,000 version of Pro Tools, doesn't do 5.1. Thanks Digidesign...thanks a lot.

But why do this anyway?

[zigzag]

As I understand it, serial drives have a separate connection (I don't know the technical term off-hand) for each drive to the motherboard, whereas parallel drives can share a connection. So it's not just a matter of adding space inside the machine - you'd have to have 4 connections to the motherboard instead of the previous 2, adding to the expense, complexity, etc. It's a trade-off for the privilege of having the speed of serial. Of course, if I'm wrong, I'd be happy to be corrected.

I guess this means you can't have your serial and eat it too?

I suppose if I were accustomed to having 4 hard drives and 2 opticals in my machine, I'd be disappointed, but trade-offs are inevitable. I'm confident that Apple did the best it could to make this thing quiet and cool as well powerful, and I don't think it'd be realistic for them to make the case any larger. On top of a 500 GB internal capacity, the advent of faster peripherals and networks should address peoples' storage needs over time.

[subego]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
I work in an office environment so anyone can take a tiny little bluetooth plug.

I'd worry more about whacking the klepto-vandals in your office and less about Apple's lack of responsiveness to the "we have paid employees who steal useless $20 do-dads from $4000 computers" crowd.

[Skywalkers new Hand]

Originally posted by subego:
I'd worry more about whacking the klepto-vandals in your office and less about Apple's lack of responsiveness to the "we have paid employees who steal useless $20 do-dads from $4000 computers" crowd.

Should we also recommend that Apple takes the latch of the back so you can't lock the insides either?

Oh and Schools do have lots of thieves.