[keekeeree]

Many Native Americans consider the team name Washington Redskins to be racially insensitive. So lets pick a new name! Which will it be:

[DaKiwi2788]

What is oven dweller? Specifically? I would assume it is implying dark skin, but I have never heard that before.

[PorscheBunny]

Originally posted by keekeeree:
Many Native Americans consider the team name Washington Redskins to be racially insensitive. So lets pick a new name! Which will it be:

The Washington Backstabbers: it more appropriately fits the city and the owner than any other your selections.

Oven-dweller = Arab

[The Godfather]

Let's call them redneck crackers !!!

[deekay1]

this reminds me of that one time me and a buddy were all baked hanging out at our college dorm.

we were talking about that same issue since it was discussed in our college paper that day.

we thought it would be funny if they had a football leauge wich allowed ONLY racially insensitive terms for team names (of course an alliteration is always fun). like:

nashville niggers
kansas city kikes
chicago chinks
washington waps
san fransisco spics
...

anyway, the stupid things you do when you're ****ed' up...

<back on topic>

i don't know. i guess if a lot of people would really be offended by that name, i would just rename the team. the washington "crackheads" or somethin'

[The Godfather]

Is "Ottawa Senators" insensitive too?

[scaught]

Originally posted by The Godfather:
Is "Ottawa Senators" insensitive too?

why would it be?


it only makes sense that people would mock a native americans objections to a racially mocking mascot.

although, the college i went to HAD the mascot "the hurons" which was a native american mascot named after a local tribe in michigan. the college changed it because of pc pressure (id guess?) even though some of th elders from the tribe gave their blessings for the university to continue using the name. all the teams sucked pretty hard so i couldnt really care any more about that issue.

[keekeeree]

Originally posted by DaKiwi2788:
What is oven dweller? Specifically? I would assume it is implying dark skin, but I have never heard that before.

Oven-dwellers = Jewish

A pretty harsh one once you make the connection, but no more so than the origins of the term Redskins as I know it. Redskins: originated as a term used by early "bounty hunters" refering to the proof brought back that they'd killed an Indian. The proof being the scalp of the dead Indian. Prices were paid for each redskin you had...'X'-amount of money for an adult male, 'X'-amount of money for an adult female, and 'X'-amount of money for children (yes...children).

Further reading here and here .

[wdlove]

There is just too much PC its ruining America!

[:XI:]

what's a wetback?

washington redskins should be renamed the washington greenbacks since money is so big an influence in politics.

[arrested502]

wetback = mexican

I'm ashamed that I know that

[yoyo52]

Originally posted by wdlove:
There is just too much PC its ruining America!

"PC" is what used to be called the golden rule. What a quaint idea!

[nvaughan3]

the term wetback is generally reserved for illegal mexican immigrants. One side of my family owns a cattle ranch in NM and uses the term frequently but I dont think it's widely used as a slur against all mexicans. but the ones it is used against...its not really insensitive, that IS how they got here.

[The Dude]

Kill Whitey.

[Millennium]

People make far too much of sports team names.

There's a high school somewhere in the Midwest; I forget where. They have a football team made up primarily of Native American students. They decided to name their team "the Fightin' Whities", in some lame attempt to offend whites and, I guess, show them how they feel about sports teams using Native American imagery in their names.

Which is all well and good, except for one thing. Many white people, of course, heard about the name. And none of them cared. There hasn't been a single complaint. For a while, Rush Limbaugh even sold their T-shirts on his show (he got a huge kick out of it). This team even has its own beer now (sold at a local bar), which makes no sense since, being a high school team, they can't even legally drink the stuff. Anything to get attention for their supposed cause.

Perhaps they could learn a lesson from a group which seems to have, as a whole, matured beyond the point of being offended by what they're called.

[keekeeree]

Originally posted by Millennium:
People make far too much of sports team names.

There's a high school somewhere in the Midwest; I forget where. They have a football team made up primarily of Native American students. They decided to name their team "the Fightin' Whities", in some lame attempt to offend whites and, I guess, show them how they feel about sports teams using Native American imagery in their names.

Actually, you just didn't simply forget where, you forgot the truth.

This wasn't a high school football team made-up of primarily Native American students. The Fighting Whites (not Fightin' Whities) is an intramural basketball team at the University of Northern Colorado. They're not primarily Native American, but there are Native Americans on the team.

And it wasn't a lame attempt at offending anyone. From the team's website:

We came up with the "Fighting Whites" logo and slogan to have a little satirical fun and to deliver a simple, sincere, message about ethnic stereotyping

Originally posted by Millennium:
This team even has its own beer now (sold at a local bar), which makes no sense since, being a high school team, they can't even legally drink the stuff. Anything to get attention for their supposed cause.

I think we've already established that this isn't a high school team. But more importantly, the beer wasn't the team's idea. Some local pub thought they'd play along with the satirical fun.

Perhaps they could learn a lesson from a group which seems to have, as a whole, matured beyond the point of being offended by what they're called.

Okay...that makes great sense. So...in your world, the name-callers are the mature one, and the those that are offended are the immature ones?

[chris v]

The Washington Whiteys.

The Washington Honkey Muh-Fuh's

Los Washington Pinche Gringo Bolillos.

Just a few options.

What about the Belgians? Now THAT"S insulting!

CV

[deekay1]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Perhaps they could learn a lesson from a group which seems to have, as a whole, matured beyond the point of being offended by what they're called.

are you talking about the niggers? oh, wait....

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by keekeeree:
Many Native Americans consider the team name Washington Redskins to be racially insensitive. So lets pick a new name! Which will it be:

I think MANY would be an exageration. I would say that there are a few. Living in Montana, I grew up around a reservation. Many of the teams of the towns on or around reservations have names like: Chiefs, Braves, Warriors, Indians.

The thing that I don't get is that a team name is a thing of pride. Nobody names a team after something they don't respect and admire. You want a name that has power.

If Atlanta's baseball team was the Cowards, that would be an insult. But the people who cheer for the Redskins take pride in that name. Anyone who has a team named after them should take pride in it too. (This can be backed up by the fact I see quite a few Crow tribe members wearing Redskin jackets.

Personally, I'd be more insulted if the team was a total loser. At least the 'Skins have won the Super Bowl a few times.

There was a Washington team that DID bow to Political Correctness. The Bullets became the Wizards. Then they ended up pissing off the wacky Christians who protest Harry Potter movies for being about Devil worship.

And PETA wants team names to not be animals. So pretty soon we'll have Super Bowls between Team #4 and Team #6. Assuming nobody is offended by numbers.

The simple fact is, this is not about team names. There are some people who just don't like competitive sports.

I'm more offended when teams have dumb names like Minnesota Wild. What do you call an individual player? With a normal name you say "He's a Cowboy." How do you say (with a straight face) "He's a Wild." Minnesota should have just reclaimed "North Stars."

[Millennium]

Oh, boy; I seem to have caused something of a stir...

Originally posted by keekeeree:


Actually, you just didn't simply forget where, you forgot the truth.

Not, I think, so much a case of forgetting the truth as never having heard it in the first place. According to the news sites I read which mentioned this team -and there were several- I have the correct story. If, in fact, I am wrong, then I sincerely apologize for any inaccuracy. But this is, in fact, the way I heard it.

The Fighting Whites (not Fightin' Whities)

I have always heard it rendered as "Whities". Which makes more sense, if they're attempting to play off of what they consider to be racially-insensitive sports team names. "White" is hardly racially-insensitive. "Whitey", however, could be considered as such by some terminally-insecure folks.

They're not primarily Native American, but there are Native Americans on the team.

Now this one I know goes directly against what I've heard. Then again, my own data is fairly old, and it's possible that the makeup of the team has changed since then.

I think we've already established that this isn't a high school team. But more importantly, the beer wasn't the team's idea. Some local pub thought they'd play along with the satirical fun.

Hmm. That's not how I heard it, but it does make a good deal more sense.

So...in your world, the name-callers are the mature one, and the those that are offended are the immature ones?

I never said the name-callers were mature. I am not a name-caller. The vast majority of people, even among patrons of these sports teams, are not. Those names were not chosen with ill intent, either. Certainly, there are people who use these words in other contexts with ill intent. We call them *******s.

But yes, I do say that the ones who are offended are immature. It's a freaking sports team, for crying out loud. There are better things to worry about. Geez; am I the only one here who would get a "Sticks and stones" reference? I've been called racial slurs of various types to my face before (and given how many races I've been mistaken for, I've gotten a pretty decent sampling across the board). Why should I be offended? It's just some moron venting frustration; why should his delusions matter to anyone else? To use racial slurs is immature (and a whole lot worse), but to take offense is no better.

[keekeeree]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Oh, boy; I seem to have caused something of a stir...

Don't flatter yourself. I'm the one that started this thread

Not, I think, so much a case of forgetting the truth as never having heard it in the first place. According to the news sites I read which mentioned this team -and there were several- I have the correct story. If, in fact, I am wrong, then I sincerely apologize for any inaccuracy. But this is, in fact, the way I heard it.

Apology accepted. A quick scan of Google should clarify any misconceptions.

Now this one I know goes directly against what I've heard (refering to the racial make-up of the team). Then again, my own data is fairly old, and it's possible that the makeup of the team has changed since then.

Sorry, but what you thought you knew is wrong.

Those names were not chosen with ill intent, either.

Agreed. They were not chosen with ill intent. They were chosen out of ignorance. Are you going to defend ignorance?

There are better things to worry about.

Better things than our children? Imagine being a Native American and watching a football game on TV or or taking your child to a game. They get to see some fan screaming and cheering on his team, sloshing his beer around, dressed up in a mock head-dress made out of dyed chicken feathers and "war paint" smeared all over his face. Imagine the revulsion of the Native American parents and the confusion of the child. You say you don't understand what's so offensive about the name Redskins? Read what I've already posted and tell me that there's nothing offensive about children being hunted like wild animals. You say mock head-dresses and "war paint" isn't offensive? Then educate yourself on their spiritual significance. But don't tell me the feelings of my children are insignificant.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
So pretty soon we'll have Super Bowls between Team #4 and Team #6. Assuming nobody is offended by numbers.
The simple fact is, this is not about team names.

good, then why don't you have names like "traktor tennessee", or even better "dynamo washington dc"

[keekeeree]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:

Many of the teams of the towns on or around reservations have names like: Chiefs, Braves, Warriors, Indians.

There's a world of difference between names like those and Redskins. Those names are not, in and of themselves, offensive.

If Atlanta's baseball team was the Cowards, that would be an insult. But the people who cheer for the Redskins take pride in that name. Anyone who has a team named after them should take pride in it too.

Have you read any of this thread? I'm supposed to take pride in a team name that refers to the bounty placed on on the heads of Native American men, women and children? Excuse me of if I'm not honored...what the hell was I thinking...

(This can be backed up by the fact I see quite a few Crow tribe members wearing Redskin jackets.

Ignorance hasn't been monopolized by one race.

There was a Washington team that DID bow to Political Correctness. The Bullets became the Wizards.

And PETA wants team names to not be animals.

Native Americans are not inanimate objects like a bullet. And PETA does not concern itself with Native Americans, despite historically having been viewed as less than human (see origin of the term redskin). Native Americans are human. The Native American culture is alive and thriving. Native Americans have a voice.

The simple fact is, this is not about team names. There are some people who just don't like competitive sports.

This by far is the silliest argument I have heard in this debate, and I've been around it for quite a few years. Yes...Native Americans just want to put an end to the evil empires otherwise know as the NFL and MLB

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by keekeeree:
Native Americans just want to put an end to the evil empires otherwise know as the NFL and MLB

It's just funny to me that you think of yourself as being so enlightened and then lump all Native Americans into one category.

The Redskins were initially called the Boston Braves, but the name was changed with a move to a new stadium (and the fact that they sucked under the name braves.)

The NFL and MLB are "evil empires?"

There is no way to go through life without ever offending someone. There is a very vocal minority of people who think that some names are "offensive." To THEM. I don't see a group of Northerners complaining about the Yankees. Or tall people complaining about the Giants. Next, we'll have to change the name of the Brewers (for those pro-temperance folk)!

The thing is, it DOESN'T matter what you think. The only person who needs to worry about what the Redskins are called is Daniel Snyder (the owner.) It's a privately owned business. If you don't like it, don't buy their gear, don't watch their games. That's fine.

[residentEvil]

i'm not 100% indian, but enough that my mom, along with my brother's and i, belong to our tribe...

the braves, the redskins, etc are not viewed as racial in our family, nor those with other indian descent that we talk to.

they are not portrayed in anyway shape or form in these high school, college and pro sports as a bad race.

so what if someone dress's up like a 'skin with 'fake' war paint and feathers. he/she is a fan and wants to be part of something great (wait, i didn't say that...'skins suck...go lions! wait, did i say that too? f uck! we suck worse!).

what does piss me off was that cartoon network axed ALL the classic cartoons during their last bugs marathon that 'portrayed' any race: asian, german, mexican, indian, jewish, etc. why did it piss me off? because those cartoons were an important part of the era and what was going on in the world. i may not have grown up in that time, but sure is an eyeopener of how some felt back then. do i take offense of the dark red skin and huge noses? or that they were drunk all the time (i _do_ resemble that from time to time ). no i don't.

in the case of sports, it is a name. that is all. for cartoons, it was meant at the time to be more or a less a political war tool (german/asian for example). should we now erase that message like it never happened (cartoons)? should we change all sport's teams name that _might_ upset someone? where does it stop? the fightin' irish? the blue devils?

is there a solution? i'm sure. but those who protest a school's name or mascot must really have nothing better to do. spend some of the energy and money to teach a poor or neglected child to read.

ah f uck it. it won't make a difference someone will always have to bitch and be a fun governor for the rest of us.

[cjrivera]

We should also rename any state or city that has an Native American name.

I live in Illinois, and when I'm at a University of IL football game, the other team's fans often chant "Illinois Sucks" or have signs that say "Kill the Illini". Same thing with other states such as Wisconsin or Missouri. You often hear fans of opposing schools say "I hate Wisconsin!" That may offend anyone from those tribes. Much like hearing someone say "I hate the French" , would offend a native of France.

[keekeeree]

Originally posted by residentEvil:
i'm not 100% indian, but enough that my mom, along with my brother's and i, belong to our tribe...

the braves, the redskins, etc are not viewed as racial in our family, nor those with other indian descent that we talk to.

Then you won't mind when I refer to your mom as a squaw. Go run off and call your mom a squaw for me and find out if she see's it as racial.

so what if someone dress's up like a 'skin with 'fake' war paint and feathers. he/she is a fan and wants to be part of something great

As I said, ignorance isn't monopolized by one race.

[macroy]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:

"... There is no way to go through life without ever offending someone. There is a very vocal minority of people who think that some names are "offensive." To THEM. I don't see a group of Northerners complaining about the Yankees. Or tall people complaining about the Giants. Next, we'll have to change the name of the Brewers (for those pro-temperance folk)!

The thing is, it DOESN'T matter what you think. The only person who needs to worry about what the Redskins are called is Daniel Snyder (the owner.) It's a privately owned business. If you don't like it, don't buy their gear, don't watch their games. That's fine."

Well put. You can never satisfy everyone. Also, in my opinion, I think alot of these were really non-issues until these "do-good'rs" made it issues. I've always grown up to associate the redskins as a football team, and not an ethical slurr. Its a real shame when folks darken the whole situation by making it into a political statement (can we say.... Martha Burke?). But hey, they do have a right to do that I guess....

[keekeeree]

Originally posted by cjrivera:
We should also rename any state or city that has an Native American name.

Hell yeah!!! That's a good point and a natural extension of the point I'm trying to make

[voodoo]

Since I don't have the "feeling" for what is racial or not in the US, would a team called "The Oklahoma Rednecks" be on par with "Washington Redskins"?

[keekeeree]

Originally posted by macroy:
I've always grown up to associate the redskins as a football team, and not an ethical slurr.

Never once seeing the Indian head on the sides of their helmets?

Its a real shame when folks darken the whole situation by making it into a political statement

LMAO...you're serious aren't you?!? Sorry to awake you from your ignorant slumber by giving you something new to think about.

[residentEvil]

so you take offense to the washington redskin's keekeeree? because you are native american?

but because i don't, nor _my_ heritage that i can talk to (mom, brothers, few cousins, etc) i have to find something that does offend them to see how it feels?

you are missing the point. they/i do understand how that it can be viewed as racist. but WE don't think so. its our opinion, just like you have one that it is apparently, offensive.

so? you can roll your eyes at everyone you want to, but they can have an opinion too.

and because someone at a football game dresses up means there ignorant to that fact that it may be racist to someone?

maybe you are the one who is...

a number of things in michigan can be traced back to native american names/places/ideas. rivers, buildings, street names, city names, points of reference, etc. so those should make me mad? my heritage? you?

the redskins where around long before you, so they should change their name because you came around?

and no, squaw is not offensive to her.

if you and your's are so thin skinned about such things, maybe you should step back and relax. have a drink.

and if you are keeping score, the 'skins did change their logo this year to appease the fun governors. maybe they will change the name? who knows. should they...nope, i don't think so.

[zigzag]

It isn't the mere naming that's offensive to some people - it's the characterization. Pontiac, MI is named after Chief Pontiac, but no one that I know of, Native American or otherwise, objects to it. But if the City of Pontiac used a mascot who was called a Redskin and acted drunk, stupid, and "savage", there would certainly be a basis for objecting, just as if the mascot were called a Nigger, Spic, Kike, or whatever. The only reason people laugh off the Indian examples is because demeaning Indians is such an integral part of our culture, we don't even notice it. No other ethnic group would tolerate it.

Now, I recognize that there are Native Americans who aren't bothered - that's fine. Nor do I think that past usages, as in cartoons, should be censored. And there are some usages that aren't offensive. But in some cases, where the characterization is particularly demeaning, I don't blame people for being offended, especially where a team is publicly funded.

It's nice that Rush Limbaugh thinks "The Whiteys" is funny (Rush Limbaugh being such a deep thinker). What he and his fans overlook is that "The Whiteys" weren't forced onto reservations and treated like s**t for 200 years. Call me a bleeding heart liberal for saying it - I don't care.

RE: the term "squaw" - I've heard that the uproar over it may have been misguided and that it was not, in fact, originally intended as a slur. But I guess this is still being debated.

[residentEvil]

it originally meant female native american but got used as a slur from my readings. but either way, its not offensive to her. or calling her a bitch cause she will even say that...hahaha. dumb bitch, nah...she wouldn't like that. she isn't dumb.

and, i think the logo change was last year, actually, not this year.

zigzag: you actually put the correct words together. pontiac isn't offensive. or cadillac. but if the logo was a stereotype drunk with huge red nose and dark red skin. yes, that can be viewed as offensive.

sorry for not justifing what i was saying to you, keekeeree. a logo or name may not be, but what the logo or in some cases a name does portray, yes...is offensive.

but back to the first post. no, the redskin is not offensive, in my opinion.

[keekeeree]

Originally posted by residentEvil:
so you take offense to the washington redskin's keekeeree? because you are native american?

My being Native American (which I am) or not has nothing to do with it being offensive. I've explained why it's offensive previous, but let me quote:

Originally posted by keekeeree:

Redskins: originated as a term used by early "bounty hunters" refering to the proof brought back that they'd killed an Indian. The proof being the scalp of the dead Indian. Prices were paid for each redskin you had...'X'-amount of money for an adult male, 'X'-amount of money for an adult female, and 'X'-amount of money for children (yes...children).

If you fail to understand why that is offensive, then no amount of further expaining on my part is going to help.

a number of things in michigan can be traced back to native american names/places/ideas. rivers, buildings, street names, city names, points of reference, etc. so those should make me mad? my heritage? you?

Place names have little to do with a football team that moved to Washington in the 1930's and adopted the name Redskins.

the redskins where around long before you, so they should change their name because you came around?

Longevity...another good argument. Hell, while we're at it, let's get those niggers back in the cotton fields where they belong.

[residentEvil]

you proved what the term redskin meant and how/why it is racist.

so adopting the name for a sports team makes them racist? i don't think the owner(s) sat down and said: well, lets be racist. how about, redskins?

sheesh!

next

[macroy]

Originally posted by keekeeree:


Never once seeing the Indian head on the sides of their helmets?

LMAO...you're serious aren't you?!? Sorry to awake you from your ignorant slumber by giving you something new to think about. [/B]

Yea... I'm not saying that I had no idea what the term meant. My point was that while the redskins may have originated as a negative term. I don't think its been perceived by the general public that way in the last few decades. Now, I'm not saying that a majority dictates right or wrong. But I do think that when the franchise sat around thinking of names, I don't think Redskins were picked because they were trying to offend anyone. In other words, you can't just look at the word itself, you have to look at the meanings.

Words do change meanings as time goes on. And we sometimes need to go with it.

[PorscheBunny]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Since I don't have the "feeling" for what is racial or not in the US, would a team called "The Oklahoma Rednecks" be on par with "Washington Redskins"?

The rednecks here in Oklahoma wouldn't be aware that the name is supposed to be dergoatory. Besides, we had the Oklahoma Outlaws in 1984 during the USFL's brief existence.

[residentEvil]

oh yeah, the USFL...hahah
michigan panthers

man, it was that long ago?

[pooka]

Maybe Native Americans should create their own team and give it a name that is offensive and based on historical fact.

Something like Caucasian Little Peckers should do just fine.