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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > phew ... it looks like 9/11 didn't actually happen

phew ... it looks like 9/11 didn't actually happen
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Wiskedjak
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Jan 9, 2010, 11:42 AM
 
"We did not have a terrorist attack on our country during President Bush's term,"
Dana Perino
Perino: No Terrorist Attacks In America Under Bush (VIDEO)

"We had no domestic attacks under Bush; we've had one under Obama,"
Rudy Giuliani
CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Giuliani says no ‘domestic terror attacks’ under Bush « - Blogs from CNN.com

I've gotta say, that's some very impressive doublethink. They appear to be completely forgetting events during Bush's term.
     
turtle777
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Jan 9, 2010, 11:51 AM
 
Yeah, that's really dumb.

I can only think that they view 9/11 as day 0 where all the counting starts.

-t
     
subego
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Jan 9, 2010, 01:13 PM
 
They could be thinking that, but they'd still be mistaken.

If this guy counts, so does Richard Reid.
     
mduell
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Jan 9, 2010, 03:12 PM
 
And the anthrax situation.
     
hyteckit
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Jan 9, 2010, 03:48 PM
 
Republicans new motto:

Repeat a lie enough times, and it'll become true.

Death panels, death panels, death panels.
Obama is a Muslim.
No terrorist attack happen under Pres. Bush.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Chuckit
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Jan 9, 2010, 05:38 PM
 
To hear Giuliani saying this is just weird. Like, dude, YOU WERE THERE.
Chuck
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ghporter
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Jan 9, 2010, 07:19 PM
 
The unmentioned elephant in the room is of course that Giuliani is assuming that we except 9/11 itself. But that makes his statement less elegant and probably feels like it's not as effective. "Except for the biggest criminal act ever perpetrated on US soil, there were no terror attacks on our homeland under Bush." Yeah, that sort of loses its ring...

What should have been said was that Bush's post 9/11 actions appear to have prevented any subsequent terrorist attacks on the US. But politicians don't seem to like straightforward, simple statements...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Wiskedjak  (op)
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Jan 9, 2010, 07:36 PM
 
Of course, 9/11 wasn't even the first terrorist attack on US soil. One could say that the 9/11 attack during Bush's term was the first terrorist attack on US soil since 1993.
     
mattyb
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Jan 9, 2010, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Republicans/Democrats/Communists/Facists/Global warming activist/GM Crop hater/etc etc etc new motto: Repeat a lie enough times, and it'll become true.
I fixed that for you hyteckit, no need to thank me.
     
Orion27
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Jan 10, 2010, 09:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
I fixed that for you hyteckit, no need to thank me.


Obama: "Fixed"
( Last edited by Orion27; Jan 10, 2010 at 05:39 PM. )
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 10, 2010, 10:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
What should have been said was that Bush's post 9/11 actions appear to have prevented any subsequent terrorist attacks on the US. But politicians don't seem to like straightforward, simple statements...
Even that wouldn't be correct, there have been cases of acts of terror (the `shoe bomber,' for instance, has already been mentioned). Although no major attack has since been successful, reality is even more complex. Attacks (and even more so, attempts) are always possible, there are gaps in every system.
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turtle777
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Jan 10, 2010, 11:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Although no major attack has since been successful, reality is even more complex. Attacks (and even more so, attempts) are always possible, there are gaps in every system.
Of course there are gaps, but the point is, the gaps got bigger because the current administration either didn't take the continuing threats seriously or thought that the whole world would be infatuated with Obama.

Remember how the Democrats always belittled the Bush administration when they were trying to be careful on Homeland Security matters ?

Well, turns out, just to stop calling terrorists and war on terror what it is, it doesn't make it go away. How profound.

-t
     
Chongo
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Jan 10, 2010, 11:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
James Carville motto:

Repeat a lie enough times, and it'll become true.
anything out of Carville's mouth
really fixed
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 10, 2010, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Of course there are gaps, but the point is, the gaps got bigger because the current administration either didn't take the continuing threats seriously or thought that the whole world would be infatuated with Obama.
That's a claim that can neither be proven or disproven with figures that have no statistical significance. This is just a fact. Ditto for the effectiveness of the measures the Bush administration has put in place: terrorist attacks (even if you include failed attempts) are simply too far and few in between.
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Remember how the Democrats always belittled the Bush administration when they were trying to be careful on Homeland Security matters ?
The DHS is a baby of the Bush administration and just a mess. But that's a different discussion.

All I'm seeing here is that factually wrong arguments are used to reinforce feelings and convictions of some. Even if the claim has some credence, the argument which is used to arrive at this conclusion is false.
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turtle777
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Jan 10, 2010, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The DHS is a baby of the Bush administration and just a mess. But that's a different discussion.
I agree, it's a mess.

But Obama is far from making it better. He achieved to make the mess even worse. Story of his life administration.

-t
     
Wiskedjak  (op)
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Jan 10, 2010, 11:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Although no major attack has since been successful, reality is even more complex. Attacks (and even more so, attempts) are always possible, there are gaps in every system.
I'd argue that *every* attack attempt is successful, regardless of whether anyone is killed, if the intent is to destroy our freedoms. Just look at the freedoms that were taken away as a result of the crotchbomber's attempt. Every time the government punishes the public for the actions of terrorists, the terrorists are successful.
     
Wiskedjak  (op)
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Jan 10, 2010, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Of course there are gaps, but the point is, the gaps got bigger because the current administration either didn't take the continuing threats seriously or thought that the whole world would be infatuated with Obama.
So, the shoebomber attempt happened because the administration at the time either didn't take the continuing threats seriously or thought that the whole world would be infatuated with Bush?
     
ghporter
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Jan 10, 2010, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
All I'm seeing here is that factually wrong arguments are used to reinforce feelings and convictions of some. Even if the claim has some credence, the argument which is used to arrive at this conclusion is false.
Unfortunately most people can't see how logic works in the first place, let alone how an erroneous argument can "sound" logical but still be completely false. Quid ergo quo only works when the quid and the quo are thoroughly defined, which of course is never done in sound bites.

My "suggested" statement was obviously incomplete but compatible as a sound bite. If I'd included "successful" and "on US soil" that would have been more complete and more nearly "correct," but it would not have been as good a sound bite. I personally remember statesmanship by politicians who were actually in office at the time. Even LBJ was statesmanly at times, eschewing twitter-worthy bites for full messages. If such a time is permanently past, we are all much the worse for it.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Jan 10, 2010, 02:26 PM
 
SNL last night: "We always knew we'd forget 9/11 eventually, Mr. Giuliani, but we never thought you'd be the first."
     
Chuckit
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Jan 10, 2010, 04:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Unfortunately most people can't see how logic works in the first place, let alone how an erroneous argument can "sound" logical but still be completely false. Quid ergo quo only works when the quid and the quo are thoroughly defined, which of course is never done in sound bites.

My "suggested" statement was obviously incomplete but compatible as a sound bite. If I'd included "successful" and "on US soil" that would have been more complete and more nearly "correct," but it would not have been as good a sound bite.
No matter how fully you elucidate things, it is hard to use the Crotchbomber as an example of Obama's failure if you're not going to count Richard Reid against Bush without some major splitting of hairs.
Chuck
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yoyo52
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Jan 10, 2010, 04:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Republicans new motto:

Repeat a lie enough times, and it'll become true.

Death panels, death panels, death panels.
Obama is a Muslim.
No terrorist attack happen under Pres. Bush.
Too true--except that it's not the new motto
And that's true too.--Shakespeare, King Lear
     
Wiskedjak  (op)
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Jan 10, 2010, 04:37 PM
 
7 other acts of domestic terror committed in the US between 2001 and 2007.

- June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.

- July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.

- December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.

- September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinc.

- April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime.

- May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

- December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.
     
Chuckit
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Jan 10, 2010, 04:55 PM
 
As these were merely attacks on abortion clinics and not terrorist attacks on the US, I'm not sure it's fair to count those.
Chuck
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hyteckit
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Jan 10, 2010, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
As these were merely attacks on abortion clinics and not terrorist attacks on the US, I'm not sure it's fair to count those.
A wise turtle once said:

"Well, turns out, just to stop calling terrorists and war on terror what it is, it doesn't make it go away. How profound."

Domestic terrorism is terrorism.
Abortion clinic bombing is terrorism. Right-wing nuts.
Animal research center bombing is terrorism. Left-wing nuts.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Chuckit
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Jan 10, 2010, 05:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
A wise turtle once said:

"Well, turns out, just to stop calling terrorists and war on terror what it is, it doesn't make it go away. How profound."

Domestic terrorism is terrorism.
Abortion clinic bombing is terrorism. Right-wing nuts.
Animal research center bombing is terrorism. Left-wing nuts.
Was Chris Brown beating up Rihanna terrorism? How about when a drunk guy at a New Year's party threatened me? Are all of these roughly equivalent to blowing up an airplane to cause injury to the US?
Chuck
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hyteckit
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Jan 10, 2010, 05:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Was Chris Brown beating up Rihanna terrorism? How about when a drunk guy at a New Year's party threatened me? Are all of these roughly equivalent to blowing up an airplane to cause injury to the US?
Blowing up a plane is terrorism, but blowing up a abortion clinic is not?

So if Al Qaeda blows up a building, it's not terrorism just because it's not a plane?

Both blowing up an airplane and blowing up buildings are terroristic acts.

One based on radical Islamic ideology and the other based on radical Christian ideology.

Both use terroristic acts to perpetuate a religious ideology.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Chuckit
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Jan 10, 2010, 05:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Blowing up a plane is terrorism, but blowing up a abortion clinic is not?

So if Al Qaeda blows up a building, it's not terrorism just because it's not a plane?

Both blowing up an airplane and blowing up buildings are terroristic acts.

One based on radical Islamic ideology and the other based on radical Christian ideology.

Both use terroristic acts to perpetuate a religious ideology.
My point is that regardless of how you label them, some dude burning an abortion clinic because he doesn't agree with abortion is substantially different from a foreign soldier trying to blow up our airplanes as an attack against America.
Chuck
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OreoCookie
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Jan 10, 2010, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Unfortunately most people can't see how logic works in the first place, let alone how an erroneous argument can "sound" logical but still be completely false. Quid ergo quo only works when the quid and the quo are thoroughly defined, which of course is never done in sound bites.
I know that what you've written wasn't necessarily your opinion, but even in the revised form, the statement is misleading and incorrect. So you cannot claim that the Bush administration's actions have prevented attacks because (a) there are no statistics backing that up (and it's impossible to make those statistics) and (b) there are counter examples. The same goes for the opposite, the claim that the Bush administration's actions have made us less safer, of course.
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Was Chris Brown beating up Rihanna terrorism? How about when a drunk guy at a New Year's party threatened me? Are all of these roughly equivalent to blowing up an airplane to cause injury to the US?
You can get some bearings by looking at official statistics. While it is correctly mentioned that there is no single definition of terrorism, they give one and make an analysis based on this definition. The relevant one is
Originally Posted by FBI
Domestic terrorism is the unlawful use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual based and operating entirely within the United States or Puerto Rico without foreign direction committed against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof in furtherance of political or social objectives.
If you look into the report, you see that at least some cases of attacks on abortion clinics and actions by animal rights extremists are mentioned.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Jan 10, 2010 at 06:01 PM. )
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Jim Paradise
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Jan 10, 2010, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Blowing up a plane is terrorism, but blowing up a abortion clinic is not?

So if Al Qaeda blows up a building, it's not terrorism just because it's not a plane?

Both blowing up an airplane and blowing up buildings are terroristic acts.

One based on radical Islamic ideology and the other based on radical Christian ideology.

Both use terroristic acts to perpetuate a religious ideology.
Not that both don't qualify as terrorist acts. One, however, is perpetuated against a specific set of individuals in the state whereas the other is targeted against all individuals of the state.
     
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Jan 10, 2010, 06:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
My point is that regardless of how you label them, some dude burning an abortion clinic because he doesn't agree with abortion is substantially different from a foreign soldier trying to blow up our airplanes as an attack against America.
Except when one needs to cook up fear in the gullible, which has been very effectively done in the last decade.
     
Wiskedjak  (op)
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Jan 10, 2010, 06:25 PM
 
What is terrorism? Is it just radical Islamics attacking America? To me, terrorism is using the fear of something undesirable as a tool to change peoples behavior. Bombing an abortition clinic in an effort to scare people into not having or not performing abortions seems to fit that bill.
     
hyteckit
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Jan 10, 2010, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jim Paradise View Post
Not that both don't qualify as terrorist acts. One, however, is perpetuated against a specific set of individuals in the state whereas the other is targeted against all individuals of the state.
That's why abortion clinic bombings are domestic terrorism.

The difference is that Al Qaeda is targeting US as a whole, while abortion clinic bombings are targeted at specific groups in the US.

Abortion clinic bombings are terrorist acts use to scare off/stop doctors from performing abortions and pregnant women from getting abortions.
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ghporter
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Jan 10, 2010, 07:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I know that what you've written wasn't necessarily your opinion, but even in the revised form, the statement is misleading and incorrect. So you cannot claim that the Bush administration's actions have prevented attacks because (a) there are no statistics backing that up (and it's impossible to make those statistics) and (b) there are counter examples. The same goes for the opposite, the claim that the Bush administration's actions have made us less safer, of course.
I was just playing "phantom editor," not backing or vouching for any version of what the guy said. He's a politician, so what he says must be assumed to be at least mostly false until proven (concretely) otherwise. Negative proofs are useless, obviously, and our blowhard friend, being a politician, blithely ignores that. Of course you have to grieve for his law school profs; logic is a big part of the early semesters of law school, and obviously the "most successful" law school grads (politicians) can shed logic like a popsicle wrapper.

'Course most pols don't have editors anyway, so suggesting what one might have/should have said is a futile exercise.

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Jan 12, 2010, 12:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Orion27 View Post


Obama: "Fixed"
Sorry, don't know who this person is. I live in Old Europe you see.
     
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Jan 12, 2010, 12:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
Sorry, don't know who this person is. I live in Old Europe you see.
http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...aces-veterans/

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Jan 14, 2010, 01:09 PM
 
Alzheimers?
     
olePigeon
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Jan 14, 2010, 01:21 PM
 
I think bombing and burning abortion clinics and testing labs should be considered terrorism.
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