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Ebonics in skoos, foo! (Page 2)
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RAILhead
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Jul 19, 2005, 09:59 AM
 
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Zimphire
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Jul 19, 2005, 10:01 AM
 
     
memento
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Jul 19, 2005, 10:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
...People do judge you on the words you use, and that my friends is a fact of life.
Very good point. Right or wrong is irrelevant, it is the truth. I've tried making this point to the local ATV community. We are trying to get a legal trail system with the millions of dollars we have spent on registrations in NY, but the anti-ATV people have a LOT of ammo and the whole movement is slowed by the impression that people leave on messageboards (not to mention the few who destroy someone's property or ride on snowmobile trails in winter).

First impressions do count, especially in the professional world.
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jasonsRX7
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Jul 19, 2005, 10:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Go to Wallmart, Bes Buy, or Kmart sometime [...]
That should be Wallmarts and Kmarts
     
budster101
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Jul 19, 2005, 10:15 AM
 
Learn to speak properly, then talks da smack in your own cribb yo.
     
AB^2=BCxAC
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Jul 19, 2005, 10:51 AM
 
I think it's a fine idea.

And here's where I think all the naysayers miss the point:

Teaching unortunate children ebonics is essentially teaching them language science tools that will promote better understanding of spoken english and will likely inform ignorant kids about the choices they are unconciously making with their speech. It will have a positive impact because it gives them a choice of words where they may not have seen one before and a better understanding of the perception of their speech pattern in the world at large.

And importantly, English is the bastard child of a dozen languages, and it's hypocritical and classist to ignore the educational ability of a documented language trend to help stimulate an intellectually dissenfranchised student body (kids who can't relate to the society of "queen's English").
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Jul 19, 2005, 11:33 AM
 
disenfranchised, eh? So, now its not their fault. Look, it IS either their fault, their parents fault, or possibly their music's fault, and probably a combination of those. They brought it upon themselves. The majority of rich people worked to get to the top. They clearly have imploded in a massive heap of poor values, arrogance, and self-righteousness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I mean, de we have a Pidgin class in Hawaii? Do we have southern-talking classes in the south? Is there a "1337" class for computer geeks? No! becasue that would be stupid. Just like this thing is!

This will hurt them more than anything... Tellling them that this "yo, foo, yo, yo..." is an okay and normal way to talk is a) not true, and b) very not true when looking at it from a "professional world" context. And if you really want to get to the top... the professional worls is all that really matters.

This is nonsense and it will not get anywhere. Its just a foolish sidetrack taken so that these fools can feel like their doing something big, and for the greater good. Really, they're not.

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dialo
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Jul 19, 2005, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious
Ebonics is hardly that. It is a bastardized version of English stemming from purposeful changing of the language. It is not just an evolved slang...
wrong. wikipedia history of aave. The fact is that it has a complex history that is still not fully understood, but the history that you've pulled out of nowhere and yet decided to believe in is, like most products of pure imagination, simply false.
Here is the set of rules by which the American English language is spoken.
But language rules change. English is a "bastardized" version of several languages. English changes all of the time and it's very noticable even looking at old documents and monographs from the US which can be difficult for modern readers to decipher. Different groups of people use language in different ways. That's just the nature of language.
     
AB^2=BCxAC
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Jul 19, 2005, 11:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by loki74
disenfranchised, eh? So, now its not their fault. Look, it IS either their fault, their parents fault, or possibly their music's fault, and probably a combination of those. They brought it upon themselves. The majority of rich people worked to get to the top. They clearly have imploded in a massive heap of poor values, arrogance, and self-righteousness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I mean, de we have a Pidgin class in Hawaii? Do we have southern-talking classes in the south? Is there a "1337" class for computer geeks? No! becasue that would be stupid. Just like this thing is!

This will hurt them more than anything... Tellling them that this "yo, foo, yo, yo..." is an okay and normal way to talk is a) not true, and b) very not true when looking at it from a "professional world" context. And if you really want to get to the top... the professional worls is all that really matters.

This is nonsense and it will not get anywhere. Its just a foolish sidetrack taken so that these fools can feel like their doing something big, and for the greater good. Really, they're not.
I keep forgetting, there's no such thing as class warfare and racism. Thanks for reminding me. Silly me.
"I stand accused, just like you, for being born without a silver spoon." Richard Ashcroft
     
CreepingDeth  (op)
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Jul 19, 2005, 11:58 AM
 
Thank you, dialo, for regurgitating the same stupid **** someone else did a post or two above you.

Listen y'all dumb mutha ****as, this is America. Our language is English. 'Shiznit' is not a word. Speak it correctly, playa. Now, go brush your teeth.

-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-

List'n y'all stoopid mutha ****as, dis is 'Merica! Da language is 'Nglish! 'Shiznit' ain't a werd! Talk like an upright walkn' human bein! Now, go brush bof o you teefes.
     
CreepingDeth  (op)
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Jul 19, 2005, 12:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by AB^2=BCxAC
I keep forgetting, there's no such thing as class warfare and racism. Thanks for reminding me. Silly me.
Uh, oh, you're right. I gues me an the rest of the honkeys and Devils on this board are puttn ebonics down cuz we're racist mother ****ers. Ahh, damn yo. We're all racist.

KILL WHITEY!
     
RAILhead
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Jul 19, 2005, 12:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by AB^2=BCxAC
I keep forgetting, there's no such thing as class warfare and racism. Thanks for reminding me. Silly me.
I think dumbing-down our language and grammar is racist and class warfare on the upper/higher educated white man and woman.

Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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saddino
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Jul 19, 2005, 12:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cubeoid
This thread is now about baseball dads.
This thread is now about catholic priests.
     
CreepingDeth  (op)
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Jul 19, 2005, 12:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead
I think dumbing-down our language and grammar is racist and class warfare on the upper/higher educated white man and woman.

Maury

Don't you think it's a tad racist to assume that all the black students are failing because they're stupid and can't speak English, so you have to use a language with almost nonexistent grammar rules so they can understand? Hmmmm…
     
RAILhead
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Jul 19, 2005, 12:09 PM
 
No, this thread is now about 19 YO Japanese models (again):

"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
CreepingDeth  (op)
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Jul 19, 2005, 12:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by saddino
This thread is now about catholic priests.
No it isn't. Shut the hell up.
     
hyperb0le
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Jul 19, 2005, 12:11 PM
 

"Miss Havisham should of throwed dat cake out 'so it don't like mess all up da bitch's house.'" I... I don't know what to do.
     
Warung
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Jul 19, 2005, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepingDeth
Listen y'all dumb mutha ****as, this is America. Our language is English. 'Shiznit' is not a word.
Neither was "barbecue", when American English first split of from British English.

Don't see too many people complaining about the use of that word these days...

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Jul 19, 2005, 12:17 PM
 
There really is no such thing as "standard" English...its always evolving. Ebonics is a legitimate dialect in many respects. While it still personally rubs me the wrong way....I don't think it ought to be merely thought of as uneducated speech.

I hear lots of educated people call into radio shows and I can often tell when they are black by the way they speak..in those cases it has little to do with education and more to do with culture...

Anyway you could make the same case for much of the south....teachers teach with a southern twang down there..so what?
     
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Jul 19, 2005, 12:32 PM
 
makes you wonder what actual qualifications the "Local Sociologist" in California would have.
I guess being a pathetic moron would top the list.

This is again where no actual scientific study was done, but merely some sort of survey, where the detailed data doesn't even exist.

More nonsense from the leftists who want to validate the need of a welfare state to support those who have been damaged by the social engineering.
     
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Jul 19, 2005, 12:34 PM
 
Yo yo yo!!!

Dis is Wankmaster Real!!

Teh Goddamn Rock Solid Ghetto Shiznit! Wassup Dawg!

Yo, you gonna hook me up wit dat phat sack honky, or am I gonna have to jack your white ass up!

Mutha ****a, ****! What you gonna do, bitch!
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AB^2=BCxAC
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Jul 19, 2005, 12:46 PM
 
Teaching kids about ebonics is not the same as teaching them ebonics (hint: theses kids already know it). Is it really so hard to imagine that helping kids out is not a communist threat?
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RAILhead
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Jul 19, 2005, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepingDeth
Don't you think it's a tad racist to assume that all the black students are failing because they're stupid and can't speak English, so you have to use a language with almost nonexistent grammar rules so they can understand? Hmmmm…
That's pretty much what I said. It's stupid to dumb-down our current language to make it easier for the "disenfranchised" kids. By doing so, I -- and all others that grew up learning our language -- are being disenfranchised, no?

Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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RAILhead
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Jul 19, 2005, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Moderator
Anyway you could make the same case for much of the south....teachers teach with a southern twang down there..so what?
An accent isn't a form of speech.
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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dialo
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Jul 19, 2005, 01:44 PM
 
The fact is that African American Vernacular English has a complex history, one that's tied into african american history overall.

English on the whole has a complex history. American english, derived from british english, is certainly very complicated and constantly changing. Words take on new meanings constantly and the language changes so fast that generation gaps also have small but quite noticable language gaps. The English spoken and written in America 300 years ago is quite different than it is today. English itself is a "bastardized" combination of a number of languages.

There are also tons of variations of english, including scots, cockney and appalachian english, some of which are completely unintelligible to speakers of other variants. Then we have creoles.

So the simple fact is that language is complex. While most of the people who use AAVE may indeed be uneducated, it's clear that those who attack them (certainly those in this thread) simply over the language variation are right there with them at the bottom of the intellectual barrel.
     
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Jul 19, 2005, 01:44 PM
 
Man. I wanna take British English or Canadian English for a second language. That'd kick ass!
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Warung
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Jul 19, 2005, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by dialo
...So the simple fact is that language is complex. While most of the people who use AAVE may indeed be uneducated, it's clear that those who attack them (certainly those in this thread) simply over the language variation are right there with them at the bottom of the intellectual barrel.
Well said!

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CreepingDeth  (op)
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Jul 19, 2005, 01:52 PM
 
If you think I'm at the bottom of the intellectual barrel with those annoying little bastard wannabe gangstas who couldn't do math to save their lives, dialo…well, pardon my French, but you can kiss my ass.

Do you want your kids to talk to talk like that? You want your kids talkn bout how his 'homies gave me da 411 on dat skank and she's all about da bling-bling"? If you think IM slang is annoying to read, than that crap is even more painful to hear.
     
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Jul 19, 2005, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepingDeth
If you think I'm at the bottom of the intellectual barrel with those annoying little bastard wannabe gangstas who couldn't do math to save their lives, dialo…well, pardon my French, but you can kiss my ass.

Do you want your kids to talk to talk like that? You want your kids talkn bout how his 'homies gave me da 411 on dat skank and she's all about da bling-bling"? If you think IM slang is annoying to read, than that crap is even more painful to hear.
Hear hear!
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Warung
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Jul 19, 2005, 02:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepingDeth
If you think IM slang is annoying to read, than that crap is even more painful to hear.
"then"

*cough* speaking about the English language...*cough*

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olePigeon
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Jul 19, 2005, 02:07 PM
 
You know, they can offer Ebonics all they want. It's not giong to change that 4 years of American English is a requirement for graduation from high school (at least, I hope it won't change.)

If they want to offer it as a second language, fine, but as long as it's open to everyone, and not just African Americans, and as long as it's not a replacement of standard English.
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RAILhead
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Jul 19, 2005, 02:08 PM
 
I mean, "YO YO YO!!! DAT BEES IT DOOD!!! DAT BEES IT!!!"
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
CreepingDeth  (op)
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Jul 19, 2005, 02:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Warung
"then"

*cough* speaking about the English language...*cough*
Ooops, I made one dem spelln mistaikes! **** yo, my bad!

0øøøp5, | m4d3 Å 5p311|ng m1574K3! 5H17 Y0, 5OrRy.

**** y'all, I accident'ly hit dat der 'a' key 'stead of dat der 'E' key. My bad, brotha.
     
Tenacious Dyl
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Jul 19, 2005, 03:07 PM
 
Look... we obviously can't STOP ebonics. And really.. we have no RIGHT to. "we don't like it, they sound stupid, wahhh". Well too bad. It is how they wish to speak.

The best that we can do, is try to teach them "proper English", or at least something more commonly used across the world and in business.

If you are intelligent, creative, talented, etc. It really doesn't matter how you speak, or even what language or dialect. You will rise to the top if you have what it takes. However, if ALL you speak is stuff like "hizzle tizzle, cracka, word, gangsta, etc" you might be just like someone who says nothing but "git r dun, whooo nascar!, etc".

I work at Michigan State University, in a GRADUATE hall, (many are pursuing law) and a fair amount of people who come through spreak 'ebonics'. It isn't as though it makes you dumb. The problem is when you can ONLY speak it. I think that giving teachers seminars to help them 'understand' the children is stupid. Maybe they can listen to some rap, turn on MTV (which seems to mostly rap these days), etc, etc. Maybe the teachers can even try to converse with the students instead of talking to them like a preacher every day! I think it is important that teachers and students can communicate, but they can figure out how to do that if they actually give it an effort. Costly and annoying 'programs' that help teachers learn things (like ebonics) are generally out of date and rather useless common knowledge that the teachers didn't bother to find out for themselves.

As for 'teaching' ebonics, no. Why teach something in school that will hinder your ability to succeed. School is ABOUT learning more so you CAN "succeed".

PS: Please don't bother to correct a few minor errors in this post to make some point about grammar. That is ... childish.
yep.
     
sminch
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Jul 19, 2005, 04:32 PM
 
PS: Please don't bother to correct a few minor errors in this post to make some point about grammar. That is ... childish.
but far easier than refuting the points you've made.

carry on, gentlemen - those of us in the antipodes are enjoying your discussion about something we know bugger all about.

sminch
     
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Jul 19, 2005, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Bluesky
Give up. We'll all be speaking Englatino soon enough.
Spanglish

Being a teacher I refuse to answer questions that are not in proper English. If a student speaks to me in Ebonics, street talk, Spanish, or any other non legible talk I will ask them to rephrase and ask again in proper English so I and others can understand their question or comment. If proper English is still not spoken they receive a zero for class participation that day.
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loki74
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Jul 19, 2005, 04:59 PM
 
I don't think we need to put ebonics on any pedistal. Its no more important than any of the other accents I mentioned in my previous post (Pidgin, Southern, etc). I mean, come on. Its not like this accent (dialect, "language," whatever I don't really care what you call it) is contributing anything to socieity, and it should be discouraged.

stevensnj has the right idea.

EDIT: PS I did post in this legendary thread!!

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Jul 19, 2005, 05:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead
No, this thread is now about 19 YO Japanese models (again):

Check out that mound. She is hiding the great wall of china down there.
     
RAILhead
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Jul 19, 2005, 05:58 PM
 
Part of that mound is what people used to call "bush." Kids in America (and other parts) these days think women are supposed to be all clean shaven like little girls.

Glad Reon thinks otherwise, myself.
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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nonhuman
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Jul 19, 2005, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious
I would not call it similar. The difference being that one is the infusion of two different languages into a broken dialect as one group tries to assimilate into an entirely foreign culture. There is a more logical pattern to the substitution of nouns, verbs, and even the phonetics in Spanglish. While it may take a couple generations and some elements of the phenomenon may stay with mainstream English forever (like some Yiddish, French and even native American words have remained from other previously assimilated populations) Spanglish will go away on its own.
Why would it go away on its own? This isn't a broken dialect so much as a pidgin/creole that's forming as two languages interact. I rather suspect we'll find it spreading beyond the latino population, especially as they are the fastest growing population in the US. In the same way French has a lot of Arabic influences, I think we'll find American English starting to have greater and greater Spanish influences, especially in places like California and Texas, but all over as well. This isn't bad, and it certainly isn't a new phenomenon. Languages meld and change through contact with other languages all the time. Where do you think the word 'yacht' came from? It certainly isn't originally and English word. Or a Latin word. Or a German word. It's a Dutch word.

Ebonics is hardly that. It is a bastardized version of English stemming from purposeful changing of the language. It is not just an evolved slang. It has become common because of an effort to distort the language for the sake of glorifying the small subculture that it first stemmed from. It grew not because the majority in those communities did not know the correct usage of the words or their spelling but because they elevated and mimicked the few who didn't. Its part of the ghettoizing of America where negative and poorly educated elements of our society are embraced by popular culture and coddled by the politically correct who want to make excuses for its existence.
If schools and educators just said to hell with your supposed "fragile cultural identity" and just abided by existing phonetics and language rules everything would be fine. Here is the set of rules by which the American English language is spoken. The word is fifty not fitty. You can keep on using it but don't expect anyone to validate its usage or take your dumbass seriously.
You get an “F” for F*cking moron.
Ebonics has certainly been driven consciously lately, but it didn't originate that way. And even if it had, that doesn't invalidate it as a dialect. If people choose to speak in a different way and do so continually and consistently, that new way of speaking will become a new and real dialect (or language if they decide to really change things up).

Do you consider Esperanto to be not a real language because it was constructed? There are actually people for whom Esperanto is their native language. What about French? Sure it arose naturally, but it's development and evolution has been guided and controlled with particular goals in mind. It's current development is (philosophically) similar to that of Ebonics. Does that make French not a real language?

Note: I'm still not saying that Ebonics should be taught in schools, that's moronic. It would be like having British English classes which I think everyone can agree is genuinely stupid. It is patently obvious that, official or not, English is the lingua franca not only in America but in the world at large. As such, it is not at all ridiculous to have classes taught in English and require students to be able to speak English. If these black students are actually incapable of understanding dialects of English other than Ebonics they should be put into ESL programs like any other student.
     
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Jul 19, 2005, 07:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman
Note: I'm still not saying that Ebonics should be taught in schools, that's moronic. It would be like having British English classes which I think everyone can agree is genuinely stupid. It is patently obvious that, official or not, English is the lingua franca not only in America but in the world at large. As such, it is not at all ridiculous to have classes taught in English and require students to be able to speak English. If these black students are actually incapable of understanding dialects of English other than Ebonics they should be put into ESL programs like any other student.

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budster101
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Jul 19, 2005, 07:43 PM
 
Ebonics = Estupid
     
OAW
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Jul 19, 2005, 09:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman
No no no no no no no. Ebonics is not a different language, it is simply a different dialect. It is still (relatively) intelligible to speakers of 'standard' English and therefore is not a different language. And even if it was, it's certainly not a foreign language.
Indeed.

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( Last edited by OAW; Jul 19, 2005 at 10:46 PM. )
     
budster101
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Jul 19, 2005, 10:12 PM
 
Ebonics suxxors.
     
OAW
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Jul 19, 2005, 10:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
I have yet to see anyone of intelligence speak ebonics.
Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps it isn't that those "of intelligence" don't speak "ebonics" ... but rather, they simply don't speak it around you?

Originally Posted by budster101
It's usually an immature idiot punk with little or no values. How would they even compare to any other dialect mentioned? Every single person tha speaks ebonics solely is a moron.
People generally speak in the same manner that those with whom they interact on a regular basis speak. This is generally the rule and of course there are exceptions. People in the south generally speak with a distinct accent as do people from New England. People from primarily Spanish speaking cultures tend to speak English in a distinct manner as well. This has nothing to do with intelligence per se. Rather, it is an issue of exposure and expectations.

Originally Posted by budster101
I gots yet ta see anyone o' intelligence speak ebonix. It's
usually an immature idiot punk wiff little or nahh values. How
would dey even compare ta any other dialect mentioned? Every
single person tha speaks ebonix solely iz uh moron.

They do NOT gots any valid points. I'll accomodate those dat
may be reading dis here thread dat only dig' ebonix. peep this shi t
The interesting thing is that the only people who actually speak like that are white people doing their exaggerated and largely inaccurate impression of the way that some black people speak.

OAW
     
MallyMal
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Jul 19, 2005, 10:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW

The interesting thing is that the only people who actually speak like that are white people doing their exaggerated and largely inaccurate impression of the way that some black people speak.

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budster101
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Jul 19, 2005, 11:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW
Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps it isn't that those "of intelligence" don't speak "ebonics" ... but rather, they simply don't speak it around you?
No. I don't know anyone that speaks ebonics, I surround myself with intelligent people, not morons... wait.


People generally speak in the same manner that those with whom they interact on a regular basis speak. This is generally the rule and of course there are exceptions. People in the south generally speak with a distinct accent as do people from New England. People from primarily Spanish speaking cultures tend to speak English in a distinct manner as well. This has nothing to do with intelligence per se. Rather, it is an issue of exposure and expectations.
Accent is not the same as a 'dialect'. You did read some of the posts in the thread right?

The interesting thing is that the only people who actually speak like that are white people doing their exaggerated and largely inaccurate impression of the way that some black people speak.

OAW

Not really.
     
nonhuman
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Jul 19, 2005, 11:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Accent is not the same as a 'dialect'. You did read some of the posts in the thread right?
That's true, but there's more than just accent that differentiates the English of a native speaker from the English of someone who's maybe not completely fluent. There are differences in grammatical construction, inflection, idioms, and speech patterns as well.

I've been told by native speakers that I have no accent when speaking Russian. But they can still tell my native language is English because I occasionally use English idioms and grammatical constructions.
     
budster101
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Jul 20, 2005, 12:06 AM
 
You said, "People in the South".

Again, Accent is not the same as a foreign language or dialect...
     
nonhuman
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Jul 20, 2005, 12:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
You said, "People in the South".

Again, Accent is not the same as a foreign language or dialect...
Actually, it wasn't me that said it... But there are in fact difference between English spoken in the South and elsewhere in America beyond simple accents. There are even grammatical differences that were caused by the Southern accent.
     
 
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