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Many Americans are still racist/xenophobic
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besson3c
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Nov 15, 2009, 07:29 PM
 
I'm really bothered by some of the things being said in here and elsewhere regarding the Fort Hood shootings, as well as some of the Obama campaign rhetoric that we were witness to.

For instance, Obama's father was Kenyan, so even though that would statistically make him more likely to be Christian since Christianity is the dominant religion there (coupled with his Mom being from Kansas), many labeled him as being Muslim. It bothered me that Obama never said "so what if I am Muslim"? Why is it that it is acceptable to firstly equate being Muslim as being something bad, but secondly to equate being Muslim with being a radical Muslim?

We can have all sorts of intellectual conversations in here about the probability of a devout Muslim being violent vs. the probability of a devout Christian being violent, that doesn't bother me so much, that's more of an academic argument. The part that bothers me is knowing that if you were to line up a whole bunch of Muslims, Hindus, and anybody else that looks remotely alike, the majority of the loudest Obama = Muslim fear-mongers couldn't tell you the difference. It's all just plain old fear and ignorance. Yes, Obama spent some time living in Indonesia, a predominantly Muslim country, but how is it logical to think that because he lived there he must therefore be a radical Muslim?

Like I said, I can't help thinking that with a large majority of these people, the real issue is that because he looks different this should be feared, some sort of pseudo rational conspiracy theory being a proxy for racism. One should never underestimate the level of ignorance with any general population.

Now that the Fort Hood shootings are front and center in the news, again we are stoking the fire of Muslim = bad. According to a source I found online, there are 1.66 billion Muslims in the world. The bottom line is that living in fear and ignorance of 1.66 billion people and trying to scare people is not in our best interests.

It bothers me that there is so much rhetoric and speech involving this subject matter that is tolerated. I'm not claiming that America is any more or less racist than any other country, but I also remember people in here trying to make the argument that racism is virtually extinct here in this country. I cannot see how anybody could rightfully claim this to be true.
     
hyteckit
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Nov 15, 2009, 07:31 PM
 
According to a recent poll, 40% of the US population are conservatives.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Doofy
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Nov 15, 2009, 07:42 PM
 
Being against the "cult of peace" is neither racist or xenophobic.

However, most Americans do appear to be racist or xenophobic. If one defines yourself as "Irish American" or "Italian American" or "Native American" or "Asian American" or "African American" then yes, you are in fact a racist or xenophobic ass-monkey. People who aren't said ass-monkey simply say "American".
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besson3c  (op)
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Nov 15, 2009, 07:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Being against the "cult of peace" is neither racist or xenophobic.
Sure it is. If even 1% of those 1.66 billion Muslims are radical and would be inclined to commit some sort of violent act, why should we be driven to fear by an even larger population of people that wouldn't be able to identify a Muslim correctly if it bit them square on the nose?

The majority of people are *not* academics that would think as you do without acting on their own fears or keeping from discrimination and/or somehow acting on negative thoughts/beliefs about people that look like they could be Muslim. *These* are the sorts of people that bother me the most.

Have you ever wondered what it must be like to be a perfectly peaceful Muslim living in parts of America right now?
     
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Nov 15, 2009, 07:51 PM
 
People are afraid of other people who are different. In other news, water is still wet, gravity is still working, and the Bills lost another game today.
     
Doofy
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Nov 15, 2009, 07:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Sure it is.
No. "The cult of peace" is neither a race or foreign land, thus fear of such can neither be racist or xenophobic.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Have you ever wondered what it must be like to be a perfectly peaceful Muslim living in parts of America right now?
Much easier than being a perfectly peaceful Christian in much of the islamic world, I suspect.
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besson3c  (op)
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Nov 15, 2009, 07:55 PM
 
Put it simply, you're completely right Dork.. I'm just wondering how many of us would disagree with that.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 15, 2009, 07:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No. "The cult of peace" is neither a race or foreign land, thus fear of such can neither be racist or xenophobic.



Much easier than being a perfectly peaceful Christian in much of the islamic world, I suspect.

I'm not sure what your point is here. My centering out the US is only addressing some of the comments that have been made in the past. I'm in no way saying that racism is some problem unique to this country.

I don't get your point about the cult of peace either, I was assuming you were speaking sarcastically about Islam.
     
Doofy
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Nov 15, 2009, 08:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm not sure what your point is here. My centering out the US is only addressing some of the comments that have been made in the past. I'm in no way saying that racism is some problem unique to this country.

I don't get your point about the cult of peace either, I was assuming you were speaking sarcastically about Islam.
I'll spell it out loud, Bess.
islam is not a f'ing race. It's a cult, in much the same way as scientology. Except much more evil.

Your assuming that people are against it because of some "race" issue does you a disservice and shows you as a bigot.
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besson3c  (op)
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Nov 15, 2009, 08:25 PM
 
I'm the bigot? Wow...

An adherent of Islam is a Muslim. There are 1.66 billion of them. You are saying that they are all in an evil cult and somehow I'm the bigot?

What world do you live in?
     
Doofy
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Nov 15, 2009, 08:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What world do you live in?
A world where you appear to think that all muslims are non-white. You're aware that our most forthright muslim here, Sayf, is a white bloke with ginger hair, right?

But somehow you make people's objections to islam about race and xenophobia, not philosophy. That makes you a bigot, Bess.
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besson3c  (op)
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Nov 15, 2009, 09:08 PM
 
Not sure I'm following you. When and why did you come to the conclusion that I think that all Muslims are non-white?

I think the disconnect here is you thinking that I'm commenting on stuff you've said in the past. I don't have a problem with your arguments about Islam being violent, really. I'm not a fan of any religion really. What I'm addressing is Joe Sixpack who makes the connection between Muslim = dark = radical, and choose to hold to their racist viewpoints when they couldn't even identify a Muslim or demonstrate any actual understanding that they understand what they hate. You cannot honestly say that those packs of people on TV in demonstrations and such that were going on about Obama being a secret Muslim know the first thing about the Islamic world. Perhaps you don't get this same news, but you can Google for these sorts of images.

What I'm saying is in connecting the dots - the fact that these conspiracy theories about Obama being a secret Muslim being tolerated when underneath that is the pretty clear notion that that would be a bad thing, and the Fort Hood stuff reveals a lot of these sorts of personalities and viewpoints, which is disturbing.

What I *am* connecting back to MacNN is the notion that racism has pretty much become extinct. I'm using this as an example to prove my point that it is very much alive. As Dork said, people are afraid of that which they don't understand.
     
Doofy
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Nov 15, 2009, 09:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What I'm addressing is Joe Sixpack who makes the connection between Muslim = dark = radical, and choose to hold to their racist viewpoints when they couldn't even identify a Muslim or demonstrate any actual understanding that they understand what they hate.
That's a bigoted view of Joe Sixpack. Have you actually been up to each and every one of these demonstrators and asked them if they know what they're talking about? No, so you're assuming that they're racist rather than culturalist, because of some weird tie-in in your brain between "brown people" and "islam".
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besson3c  (op)
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Nov 15, 2009, 09:22 PM
 
Assuming the stupidity in people is always a safe bet. Their stupidity is on full demonstration and my calling them stupid justified when you look at their ridiculous arguments. Maybe there are some protesters that would surprise me, but in general associating with people that hold up signs and say stupid things is a great way to get you lumped into the same category. I guess this does make me bigoted to a certain extent, I'll concede that.

Still not following what you're trying to say about the tie-in in my brain about brown people and Islam, but moving on...
     
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Nov 15, 2009, 09:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe there are some protesters that would surprise me, but in general associating with people that hold up signs and say stupid things is a great way to get you lumped into the same category.
It's not that all protestors here (or people who hold up signs) are stupid. But a lot of them are.
(on all sides of the political spectrum, of course, although I will conveniently pick a picture from the side I don't like.)



The stupid ones also tend to be loud, because yelling is easier than thinking.

I have a lot more respect for protestors in other countries, because they could be risking their lives by protesting. The worst thing we do to our protestors is interview them on TV.
     
Chuckit
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Nov 15, 2009, 09:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Not sure I'm following you. When and why did you come to the conclusion that I think that all Muslims are non-white?
You equated fear of Islam with racism a couple of times in this thread. Your original post seemed to be of the form, "People are worried Obama is a Muslim because he lived in a country where there is a significant Muslim presence and later lived in a very Muslim country, therefore they are racist."
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besson3c  (op)
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Nov 15, 2009, 09:47 PM
 
Preach on brother Dork.

There was a funny bit on 30 Rock last week about a sports show that just consisted of people yelling at each other. Tracy Morgan's character appeared on it and instead of trying to make an argument he literally just yelled some sort of "ahhhhhhh" sound which didn't seem to phase the other guys who were yelling at each other in the midst of some sort of argument. He somehow figured that was what he was supposed to do on the show

At this rate it won't be long before all political talk shows are like that.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 15, 2009, 09:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
You equated fear of Islam with racism a couple of times in this thread. Your original post seemed to be of the form, "People are worried Obama is a Muslim because he lived in a country where there is a significant Muslim presence and later lived in a very Muslim country, therefore they are racist."

Yes, but in my mind I was assuming it was understood that the sort of people I was centering out wouldn't necessarily figure out that black and Muslim are not synonymous.

I guess that wasn't clear.
     
Chuckit
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Nov 15, 2009, 10:04 PM
 
I think most Americans are well aware that not all blacks are Muslims. Black churches are known for being much more enthusiastic and well-attended than most in America. This is especially true in the Southern "red states."
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besson3c  (op)
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Nov 15, 2009, 10:22 PM
 
I think Americans can tell African Americans apart from Muslims, but I'm not sure about Indian/Pakistani/Persian/etc.
     
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Nov 15, 2009, 10:42 PM
 
I'm not a racist, **** everybody.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Chuckit
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Nov 15, 2009, 11:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think Americans can tell African Americans apart from Muslims, but I'm not sure about Indian/Pakistani/Persian/etc.
African Americans apart from Muslims? I'm not sure those are fully distinct sets.

But at any rate, doesn't that contradict your initial claim that people thought Obama was Muslim because he was black? Because he's the African sort of black rather than the "Muslim" sort, isn't it? Or am I on the wrong track?
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Nov 15, 2009, 11:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
If one defines yourself as "Irish American" or "Italian American" or "Native American" or "Asian American" or "African American" then yes, you are in fact a racist or xenophobic ass-monkey.
I'll agree with you here. Quite often minorities are at least as racist as majorities.
     
Wiskedjak
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Nov 15, 2009, 11:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
islam is not a f'ing race. It's a cult, in much the same way as scientology ...
... and Christianity, and Judaism, and Hinduism ....

All religions are cults.
     
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Nov 15, 2009, 11:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think Americans can tell African Americans apart from Muslims, but I'm not sure about Indian/Pakistani/Persian/etc.
With the exception of Ethiopians, I can pretty easily visually differentiate between someone of African heritage and someone who's family came from farther north. While I certainly won't suggest I can visually differentiate people of Indian and Pakistani heritage, I don't confuse them with those of African heritage. Persians look very different from Arabs, and I don't think there's enough similarity (except for maybe a hint of darker sin) to suggest Iranians look Arab. Please note that I have a considerable amount of experience interacting with people from a fairly large cross section of the planet.

Most Americans are mostly only comfortable with the amount of cultural diversity they encountered while growing up. Someone from Biloxi, MS who grew up in the 1980s would think nothing of the fact that there was a Vietnamese community there; if they grew up there 20 years earlier, they'd still have trouble dealing with the influx of Vietnamese after the fall of South Vietnam. It's about exposure and what "appears normal" to a person.

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Nov 15, 2009, 11:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I'll spell it out loud, Bess.
islam is not a f'ing race. It's a cult, in much the same way as scientology. Except much more evil.
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
... and Christianity, and Judaism, and Hinduism ....

All religions are cults.
The unfortunate part about Islam is that, despite being the culture of education, science and medicine for centuries, they lost their edge about the time they were run out of Spain, and instead of maintaining some sort of balance between secular and religious, much of the Islamic world is still run by religious authorities. Compounding this is the fact that this same "culture of education" has apparently fewer literate members now than it did in the 1400s, and these illiterate believers are at the mercy of the political whims of their religious leaders. Which is why so many people equate Islam with "religious whack-job" behavior.

You do not hear about moderate Islam because moderate Muslims don't go around making a big deal about their religion at the same time they do not go around creating public mischief and destruction. That's sort of the best approximation you'll find for "secular" Islamic life today. But it is because of this that I have to state that Doofy is as wrong in saying all Muslims are identical and thus equally as evil as the politically oriented religious leaders that find willing suicide bombers, as besson is in writing so as to suggest that Islam is a "race." (I'll skip the whole "the only race on this planet is 'human'" part for now.)

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Chuckit
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Nov 16, 2009, 12:55 AM
 
I don't think Doofy said that all Muslims are evil — his criticisms here have been directed at the religion itself.
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lpkmckenna
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Nov 16, 2009, 02:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No. "The cult of peace" is neither a race or foreign land, thus fear of such can neither be racist or xenophobic.
Racist? I'd say no. Xenophobic, I'd say yes. Fear of Islam or Muslims is still stupid. Being an atheist, I'm not friendly to any religion, radical or moderate. But there's no significant difference among the various religions, so Doofy's concerns are laughable. Calling Islam a cult is plainly absurd.
Much easier than being a perfectly peaceful Christian in much of the islamic world, I suspect.
But I'm sure getting on a flight doesn't require the usual anal exam, though.

BTW, Islam has a reputation for terrorism, but really the source of terrorism is the Arab world. Not much terrorism coming from Indonesia.

It's the Arabs we should hate and fear.
     
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Nov 16, 2009, 02:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
All religions are cults.
This isn't true. There's a big difference between place that provides a forum for worship and guidance, and a place that runs your life while robbing you blind.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 16, 2009, 02:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
African Americans apart from Muslims? I'm not sure those are fully distinct sets.

But at any rate, doesn't that contradict your initial claim that people thought Obama was Muslim because he was black? Because he's the African sort of black rather than the "Muslim" sort, isn't it? Or am I on the wrong track?

Either you're on the wrong track or I was unclear. I certainly don't think that Americans think that Obama is Muslim because he is black. I think that some Americans think he is Muslim just because of his history and all of the stuff they have heard and want to believe.
     
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Nov 16, 2009, 06:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Racist? I'd say no. Xenophobic, I'd say yes.
You need to go look up "xenophobia" in a dictionary. Last time I looked, islam isn't a country.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Fear of Islam or Muslims is still stupid.
You'll change your mind at some point.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
But there's no significant difference among the various religions, so Doofy's concerns are laughable. Calling Islam a cult is plainly absurd.
Yeah, because proper religions have their adherents facing a bit of rock five times a day and tell people that they can't face a certain way when taking a poop.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
But I'm sure getting on a flight doesn't require the usual anal exam, though.
Land of the free, yadda yadda yadda.

Just make sure you haven't taken any headache tablets before you depart for a muslim country - you might end up with five years in pokey just for having a bit of asprin in your system.
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Nov 16, 2009, 06:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
You do not hear about moderate Islam because moderate Muslims don't go around making a big deal about their religion at the same time they do not go around creating public mischief and destruction. That's sort of the best approximation you'll find for "secular" Islamic life today. But it is because of this that I have to state that Doofy is as wrong in saying all Muslims are identical and thus equally as evil as the politically oriented religious leaders that find willing suicide bombers
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I don't think Doofy said that all Muslims are evil — his criticisms here have been directed at the religion itself.
This is true. Just like all Windows users aren't evil (only the shills). But they're all still subscribed to the same crappy system - have to feel sorry for some of the poor saps.

I believe there's going to be problems in the US (and Europe) in a few years' when belief in "freedom of religion" starts to properly meet "you will submit or else".
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Nov 16, 2009, 07:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Either you're on the wrong track or I was unclear. I certainly don't think that Americans think that Obama is Muslim because he is black. I think that some Americans think he is Muslim just because of his history and all of the stuff they have heard and want to believe.
What the hell does being a Muslim (or not) have to do with race? Being anti-Muslim is not being racist. At all.

As far as I'm aware, the only word that can be used to associate both a religion and an ethnicity is Jew, in that there are people who are part of the Jewish ethnicity, and people who adhere to Judaism as a religion or belief system.

Otherwise, being a Muslim has absolutely nothing to do with race. The case may be that a given Middle Eastern country is primarily Muslim, but the country's race and religion are not dependent on each other. You can be a Muslim without having a particular skin color.

How else do you need it spelled out to get what the message is here?
     
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Nov 16, 2009, 08:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
For instance, Obama's father was Kenyan, so even though that would statistically make him more likely to be Christian since Christianity is the dominant religion there (coupled with his Mom being from Kansas), many labeled him as being Muslim.
I think many people assumed he was a Muslim because there was documentation that inferred that he was. Obama was even listed as being Muslim in school records apparently. If the President was born Barry Smith and wasn't surrounded by Muslim role models as a boy, I don't think the mistake would have been made. I don't think it has anything to do with racism or xenophobia.

I see more bigotry towards religion than anything else. You don't have to look any further than this thread to see great examples. I think there is nothing bigoted though about fear of radical Islam either. They really do want to restrict the freedom and well being of those who don't even adhere to their beliefs - kill them even. I think it's reasonable to fear death due to someone else's religious beliefs. I don't think it's reasonable to fear religion because you don't like the moral guidance it gives or it's basic spiritual tenets.
     
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Nov 16, 2009, 08:10 AM
 
Ironically, this xenophobia not only existed among those who opposed Obama, but among those who oppose our actions in the Middle East, insisting you cannot democratize the barbarians of the Middle East or that they are somehow incapable of civility and rule of law. "There could be no peaceful vote", "there could be no constitution" "no government", "they don't care about dying", etc... Many assumptions are made using generalizations contingent upon how it suits your agenda.

The overwhelming majority of Muslims want peace and prosperity just as the overwhelming majority of Christians want peace and prosperity. The examples cited for American xenophobia are still the exception, not the norm. Barack Hussein Obama was elected by the majority of Americans in spite of rumors of Islamic roots, in spite of his name affirming Islamic roots, and in spite of his skin color.

The ones who voted against Obama are allowed the right to oppose ideals without it being relegated some antiquated ill such as xenophobia and/or racism. I'm not saying these flaws don't exist, but to elevate them to some degree worthy of note is fallacious IMO.
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Nov 16, 2009, 09:25 AM
 
Ironic that the OP made a racist/xenophobic comment in the title of this thread.

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Nov 16, 2009, 09:58 AM
 
Do you think racism and judging by visual information is cultural or organic?
     
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Nov 16, 2009, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Yeah, because proper religions have their adherents facing a bit of rock five times a day and tell people that they can't face a certain way when taking a poop.
The NT says women can't use makeup, that death never existed before Adam ate a fruit after a talking snake tricked him, and that Jesus cured blindness by rubbing some mud and spit in a man's eyes(but only after a second attempt). Absurdities abound in all religions, don't pretend otherwise.

And I'd prefer being told which direction to poop before being told never to use birth control or jerk off.
     
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Nov 16, 2009, 11:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
As far as I'm aware, the only word that can be used to associate both a religion and an ethnicity is Jew, in that there are people who are part of the Jewish ethnicity, and people who adhere to Judaism as a religion or belief system.
Hindu, Parsi, Sikh, Druze, and a whole bunch of smaller Arab sects come to mind.
     
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Nov 16, 2009, 11:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
The NT says women can't use makeup, that death never existed before Adam ate a fruit after a talking snake tricked him, and that Jesus cured blindness by rubbing some mud and spit in a man's eyes(but only after a second attempt). Absurdities abound in all religions, don't pretend otherwise.

And I'd prefer being told which direction to poop before being told never to use birth control or jerk off.
You must be reading a different NT (and OT) than I do. That's the only logical conclusion I can come to with regard to your above post.
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Doofy
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Nov 16, 2009, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Hindu, Parsi, Sikh, Druze, and a whole bunch of smaller Arab sects come to mind.
Hindu?

Do you actually have any clue at all?
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lpkmckenna
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Nov 16, 2009, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I think there is nothing bigoted though about fear of radical Islam either. They really do want to restrict the freedom and well being of those who don't even adhere to their beliefs - kill them even. I think it's reasonable to fear death due to someone else's religious beliefs. I don't think it's reasonable to fear religion because you don't like the moral guidance it gives or it's basic spiritual tenets.
I agree with what you're saying here about radical Islam, meaning Islam as a political ideology. It isn't Islam per se that is dangerous, but any attempt to bind a religion to the state will only create tyranny. This applies equally to all religions; politicized Judaism or Hinduism or Christianity is to be feared just as politicized Islam. Religion + Government = Evil.
     
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Nov 16, 2009, 11:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Hindu?

Do you actually have any clue at all?
What are you whining about now?
     
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Nov 16, 2009, 11:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I agree with what you're saying here about radical Islam, meaning Islam as a political ideology. It isn't Islam per se that is dangerous, but any attempt to bind a religion to the state will only create tyranny.
You realise that islam can't be separated from government, don't you? islam has always been a political idology, ever since the day old Mo decided that life as a cheap goat-herder wasn't working for him.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
What are you whining about now?
Ummm. You just said that "Hindu" is an ethnic group. You're talking utter balls.
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lpkmckenna
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Nov 16, 2009, 12:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You realise that islam can't be separated from government, don't you?
Sez you. The separation of church and state has been absorbed by many Muslims. The state of Turkey is offically a secular state, and Muslims in the west are overwhelmingly in favor of secular government.
islam has always been a political idology, ever since the day old Mo decided that life as a cheap goat-herder wasn't working for him.
Wrong again. Mo only became a political and military leader after experiencing political oppression by the ruling idolaters. Mo's original vision was purely religious. (At least, so goes the official myth.) Muslims who enjoy freedom of religion have no cause to pursue Islamification of the state. This is the "official doctrine" of moderate Muslim groups throughout the world.
Ummm. You just said that "Hindu" is an ethnic group. You're talking utter balls.
Overwhelmingly, Indians are Hindus, and Hindus are Indian. "Indian" comprises many sub-ethnicities, but so does Judaism. Besides, "Hindu" is a British-invented word for both the race and the religion.
     
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Nov 18, 2009, 09:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Hindu, Parsi, Sikh, Druze, and a whole bunch of smaller Arab sects come to mind.
Well, shows how much I know. I think the point still stands, even with that taken into consideration.

I've never heard of referring to someone as a Hindu unless they're a practitioner of Hinduism, too.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I agree with what you're saying here about radical Islam, meaning Islam as a political ideology. It isn't Islam per se that is dangerous, but any attempt to bind a religion to the state will only create tyranny. This applies equally to all religions; politicized Judaism or Hinduism or Christianity is to be feared just as politicized Islam. Religion + Government = Evil.
I definitely agree with this wholeheartedly. I've seen a great number of practicing Muslim women here in Fairfax (that's the assumption at any rate, since they wear hijabs), and none of them strike me as people who want to force the United States into submission to Islam.

A government making laws based on religious beliefs is dangerous territory, to be sure.

Which, as an aside, is why I can be a Christian and not be against gay marriage. You can't make a mandate about marriage rights based on something a specific religion says.
     
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Nov 18, 2009, 09:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
All religions are tax scams.
Fixed.
     
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Nov 19, 2009, 06:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Andy8 View Post
Fixed.
No. You don't need a religion in order to avoid tax.
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Nov 19, 2009, 07:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No. You don't need a religion in order to avoid tax.
LOGIC FAILED!

No one said the converse was true.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
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Nov 19, 2009, 07:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
LOGIC FAILED!
Wrong. You think about it.
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