Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > iPhone, iPad & iPod > The new iPad

The new iPad
Thread Tools
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 03:25 PM
 
New iPad with A5X CPU and quadruple the screen rez, as well as 4G and a new camera.

But what exactly does "Quad-core graphics" mean?



Dual-core Apple A5X custom-designed, high-performance, low-power system-on-a-chip with quad-core graphics

Oh and it's not called an iPad 3.


( Last edited by Eug; Mar 7, 2012 at 03:46 PM. )
     
SierraDragon
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Truckee, CA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 03:30 PM
 
Tim Cook: “We needed even more horsepower for the new iPad and its Retina Display, so we created the A5X chip. What’s the x for? Quad-core graphics.”

It will be interesting to learn the tech details of that statement.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 03:30 PM
 
dual-core CPU, quad-core GPU
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 03:45 PM
 
Great update, especially since the price didn't change.

As expected, nothing unknown or unexpected.

-t
     
SierraDragon
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Truckee, CA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 03:46 PM
 
The new iPad will sell very well.

Interesting though, they never did really name it iPad 3 or iPad 4g or iPad HD or whatever. Even the website just calls it the New iPad.

Apple has always had confusing nomenclature, which seems an ongoing mistake from a company that does not usually make those kinds of mistakes. The net result is that consumers and the press may create the i.d.

-Allen
     
-Q-
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 03:47 PM
 
I wonder, with the faster LTE network, if they'll let FaceTime work via 4G and Wifi?
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 03:54 PM
 
As the providers are moving to kill unlimited plans, they will allow ANY data to be used over 3G/LTE.

The FaceTime limitation was mainly rooted in fear of clogged and overburdened networks.

-t
     
ShortcutToMoncton
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Rock
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 03:58 PM
 
Well, certainly can't pre-order - looks like their store is down already? Haha. I must say, there's nothing revolutionary about it compared to the iPad 2, but it's enough to make original iPad owners want to upgrade I bet...this will be pretty huge.

Think I'm gonna get a new AppleTV as well, once we get a little more info on the new one.
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 03:59 PM
 
Actually, I believe the FaceTime over Wi-Fi limitation was mainly rooted in the fact the video conferencing via 3G *sucks*.
     
Atheist
Mac Elite
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Back in the Good Ole US of A
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 04:01 PM
 
Definitely going to upgrade from my original iPad to the "new iPad". But what's with the name. Classic Apple. I suppose the next iPhone will be the "new iPhone" instead of the iPhone 5.
     
-Q-
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Actually, I believe the FaceTime over Wi-Fi limitation was mainly rooted in the fact the video conferencing via 3G *sucks*.
That was the original rationale I'd heard, as well.

As cited above, this is certainly more tempting to me as an original iPad owner than the iPad 2 was.
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 04:07 PM
 
Pretty much what we expected. But I'm still not sure I need a tablet.

And iPhoto for iOS is finally here, and it's strange that it took so long.
     
Eug  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 04:10 PM
 
I wonder if The new iPad will pass the SenorGIF test. Viewing this page on the iPad 2 can be quite painful.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Definitely going to upgrade from my original iPad to the "new iPad". But what's with the name. Classic Apple. I suppose the next iPhone will be the "new iPhone" instead of the iPhone 5.
Uhh...Apple calls it "iPad".
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Actually, I believe the FaceTime over Wi-Fi limitation was mainly rooted in the fact the video conferencing via 3G *sucks*.
But it only sucks in *practice*, not in theory.

3G (at least on GSM networks) should have enough bandwidth to do it w/o sucking.
Only when the speeds of 3G are low due to limited bandwidth, it starts to suck.

So, in that regard, there is NO guarantee that it won't suck on LTE.

-t
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 04:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
But it only sucks in *practice*, not in theory.

3G (at least on GSM networks) should have enough bandwidth to do it w/o sucking.
Only when the speeds of 3G are low due to limited bandwidth, it starts to suck.
AT&T has very high 3G bandwidth; they just have low coverage.

From what I've been told, you actually need five regular towers in range to get full UMTS speeds. And as someone who was on O2 until about three years ago, I can tell you that reception, coverage, and bandwidth are three very independent vectors, and only when all three of them convene by some mystic formula do you actually get throughput.

T-Mobile has similar issues even smack in the middle of downtown.

Video conferencing via 3G is great in theory; Skype sucks IN PRACTICE.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 04:45 PM
 
resolutionary, indeed.
     
mduell
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 04:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
New iPad with A5X CPU and quadruple the screen rez, as well as 4G and a new camera.

But what exactly does "Quad-core graphics" mean?
1) The screen is double resolution, from 132 dpi to 264 dpi.

2) iPad 2's A5 had two PowerVR SGX543 GPU cores (aka SGX543MP2), the A5X has four that are likely SGX543, SGX544, or SGX554. The PowerVR Series 5XT (SGX543, SGX544, and SGX554) supports 1-16 cores. Each core has a separate set of shaders and texture units, but graphics processing generally parallelizes well across them.
     
Eug  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
1) The screen is double resolution, from 132 dpi to 264 dpi.
I guess it depends on how you define it. It's doubled the resolution in both axes, which means quadruple the pixels in the same area.

2) iPad 2's A5 had two PowerVR SGX543 GPU cores (aka SGX543MP2), the A5X has four that are likely SGX543, SGX544, or SGX554. The PowerVR Series 5XT (SGX543, SGX544, and SGX554) supports 1-16 cores. Each core has a separate set of shaders and texture units, but graphics processing generally parallelizes well across them.
Ah interesting. Thx.

Hopefully the CPU gets a noticeable boost too though.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 05:03 PM
 
Presentation streaming video is online.

Apple - Apple Events - Apple Special Event March 2012
     
simonjames
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Bondi Beach
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 05:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Great update, especially since the price didn't change.

As expected, nothing unknown or unexpected.

-t
Actually it is $40 cheaper in Australia than iPad 2 - which is equal to the States when local sales tax is taken into account.

The camera and storage are big disappointments. The camera should have been 8MP minimum - more likely 10MP and the storage should have been doubled.
this sig intentionally left blank
     
Atheist
Mac Elite
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Back in the Good Ole US of A
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 05:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Uhh...Apple calls it "iPad".
My point is that it goes against their previous naming conventions for the iPhone/iPad:

iPhone -> iPhone 3G -> iPhone 3GS -> iPhone 4 -> iPhone 4S
iPad -> iPad 2 -> iPad
     
Eug  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 06:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by simonjames View Post
Actually it is $40 cheaper in Australia than iPad 2 - which is equal to the States when local sales tax is taken into account.

The camera and storage are big disappointments. The camera should have been 8MP minimum - more likely 10MP and the storage should have been doubled.
After a certain point, pixel counts become almost irrelevant. It's the quality not the quantity. In fact, I'd be fine with a 4 MP camera if it was a good one.

I still have an 8 MP dSLR which blows most 12 MP point and shoots out of the water.
     
mduell
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 06:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I guess it depends on how you define it. It's doubled the resolution in both axes, which means quadruple the pixels in the same area.
The common resolution that people talk about when they say resolution is linear resolution. That has doubled.
The number of pixels has quadrupled and that's great and fine to say.

Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Ah interesting. Thx.

Hopefully the CPU gets a noticeable boost too though.
I doubt the CPU will be much changed; same core generation, same number of cores, same cache size, and same feature size so it's unlikely they pushed clock much (maybe 30%).

Originally Posted by simonjames View Post
The camera and storage are big disappointments. The camera should have been 8MP minimum - more likely 10MP and the storage should have been doubled.
There's no point in pushing Mpix with such a small limiting lens. You'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between 2MP and 8MP.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Rock
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 07:00 PM
 
Oh the AppleTV front - it's now 1080p. But aren't Netflix/iTunes movies only 720p? That was my understanding.
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 07:12 PM
 
iTunes movies now stream in 1080p.

That's what iTunes 10.6 is for.
     
mduell
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 07:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Oh the AppleTV front - it's now 1080p. But aren't Netflix/iTunes movies only 720p? That was my understanding.
Netflix supports 1080p streams for STBs, I assume tv will qualify.
     
kenna
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: May 2007
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 07:35 PM
 
Is it true that with the increased pixel quantity that it'll be about as quick as the iPad 2 overall? Or will this actually outperform the iPad 2 in terms of speeds/tasks (not just graphics)?

I'm pre-ordering, sold my iPad 1.
MacBook Pro 17" 2.2 GHz quad-core, 2x4GB 1333MHz RAM, 750GB Hard Drive, Intel HD Graphics 3000,
AMD Radeon HD 6750M with 1GB GDDR5, Mid 2011

MacBook Air 13" 1.7 GHz dual-core Intel i5, 4GB RAM, 128GB Flash Storage, Intel HD Graphics 3000, Mid 2011
iPhone 4 32 GB, Mid 2010
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 07:56 PM
 
Three of the 64GB 4G models on order, I just wish they had bumped them to 128GB. Still very nice, can't wait.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Stogieman
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 09:08 PM
 
Did they increase the amount of RAM in the new iPads?

Slick shoes?! Are you crazy?!
     
ShortcutToMoncton
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Rock
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 09:22 PM
 
Ordered a 32gb model myself - hopefully I won't regret not getting the 64 gigs but I suspect it'll mostly be something for controlling the ATV and pulling general web/book duties on the couch.
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Rock
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 09:25 PM
 
Ahhhhh.....suddenly my 150gig/month internet service doesn't seem so great - 1080p downloads? Hahaha, the future is now.
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
Wiskedjak
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Uhh...Apple calls it "iPad".
Nope. In the Store, your options are "The new iPad" or "iPad 2"
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/overlay/ipad/compare
( Last edited by Wiskedjak; Mar 7, 2012 at 10:18 PM. )
     
jmiddel
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Land of Enchantment
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 7, 2012, 10:15 PM
 
A HD movie usually is under 5gigs. That would give you a movie a day And Stogieman, They now are at 1gig. My 1st gen has 512MB.
     
Eug  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 12:23 AM
 
The first gen iPad has only 256 MB RAM, which is one of the several reasons why the iPad 2 is so much smoother than the original iPad. The other big reasons are dual-core on the iPad 2, and a multi-fold faster GPU. All those reasons figured heavily into why I didn't even consider buying the original iPad.
     
mduell
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 12:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by kenna View Post
Is it true that with the increased pixel quantity that it'll be about as quick as the iPad 2 overall? Or will this actually outperform the iPad 2 in terms of speeds/tasks (not just graphics)?
The CPU appears to be mostly unchanged. The feature size is unchanged which will temper any clockrate gains. The change in pixels has little impact on CPU performance.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Three of the 64GB 4G models on order, I just wish they had bumped them to 128GB. Still very nice, can't wait.
A shame given the plummeting price of flash over the last 2 years. Even on the spot market it's down to $0.75/GB.
     
Big Mac
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 01:10 AM
 
This is a great release that cements Apple's dominance in the tablet arena. I'm glad that Apple priced it aggressively. Even the type of PC geek who loathes Apple for its modern success has very little negative to say about the New iPad.

It's highly curious though that they don't have a new name for it, whether it's iPad 3 or iPad HD. This was deliberate. I think it signals, like someone said above, that Apple may be transitioning its iDevices to fully generic names: The iPad (iPad 3/HD 2012). The iPhone (iPhone 6/LTE/2012). As has been the case with the Mac lineup for quite some time.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Mar 8, 2012 at 01:21 AM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
imitchellg5
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Washington + Colorado
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 01:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Stogieman View Post
Did they increase the amount of RAM in the new iPads?
Yes, a few sources are saying 1 GB.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 02:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Nope. In the Store, your options are "The new iPad" or "iPad 2"
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/overlay/ipad/compare
The iPad pages on Apple's site speak of "iPad" and mention the "new iPad", not as a brand, but as a way of distinguishing it over the older models.

I'm amazed this is even being discussed.
     
Atheist
Mac Elite
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Back in the Good Ole US of A
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 07:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The iPad pages on Apple's site speak of "iPad" and mention the "new iPad", not as a brand, but as a way of distinguishing it over the older models.

I'm amazed this is even being discussed.
It's being discussed because it will invariably lead to confusion. What happens when the next generation iPad comes out. Then the "new iPad" will become the "old iPad" and the next generation is the "new iPad"? Or will the new one be the "newer iPad"?

I love Phil Schiller's reasoning behind the name: "because we don’t want to be predictable".
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 08:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
It's being discussed because it will invariably lead to confusion. What happens when the next generation iPad comes out.
Then this one will be "iPad 2012 (retina display)" in support documentation, and "last year's iPad" everywhere else.

Same as with most other product lines of theirs.

What I can't believe is that people are seriously claiming that Apple's name for the product is "new iPad", rather than just "iPad".

That's just
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 09:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
The CPU appears to be mostly unchanged. The feature size is unchanged which will temper any clockrate gains. The change in pixels has little impact on CPU performance.
Do you have confirmation on the chip still being at 45nm? I thought for sure that they would take this opportunity to shrink.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 10:19 AM
 
Still on the first page? The excitement is nearly palpable.
     
osiris
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Isle of Manhattan
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 10:34 AM
 
that's a shame. where'd everyone go? The Android forums?
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 11:31 AM
 
I want. I'm just not really surprised by anything I've heard.
     
mduell
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Do you have confirmation on the chip still being at 45nm? I thought for sure that they would take this opportunity to shrink.
No confirmation; we'll have to wait for iSuppli to get one and shave it down.

I'm not really surprised at the feature size stagnation from A4 to A5X; they started aggressively with the then-current node which buys them time before they have to do a shrink.
     
Stogieman
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 01:37 PM
 
I ordered mine last night. 32GB Black WiFi.

Slick shoes?! Are you crazy?!
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
No confirmation; we'll have to wait for iSuppli to get one and shave it down.

I'm not really surprised at the feature size stagnation from A4 to A5X; they started aggressively with the then-current node which buys them time before they have to do a shrink.
I guess that makes sense, and the delays of 32nm and below explains some, but with their fascination with battery life, I thought they'd include something compensate for the battery-slurping LTE.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
mduell
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I guess that makes sense, and the delays of 32nm and below explains some, but with their fascination with battery life, I thought they'd include something compensate for the battery-slurping LTE.
An extra 17.5Whr of battery capacity?
     
Eug  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 8, 2012, 03:40 PM
 
This does explain the 32 nm shrink delays vs. iPad product cycle.

I had been guessing the iPad thr... err... iPad... would get released later this year because it would get a die shrunken CPU/GPU. This A5X allows them a performance boost, albeit mainly on the GPU side, while still keeping an early 2012 release.

So the question now is if Apple will release an A6-endowed iPad fou... err... even newer iPad... later in 2012, or else just keep the 32 nm products for 2013.

Apple can afford this type of sandbagging because they already dominate in the market, and dominate because they have better products, not just because they market better.

BTW, we have an AppleTV, but if it were my choice I would have waited until 2012 before I made any purchase, because I didn't really want an AppleTV without 1080p support. (It wasn't my choice to buy the AppleTV in 2011, but I got it as a Christmas present.) However, I'm curious as to the architecture. The 2nd gen AppleTV is a single-core A4, whereas the 3rd gen AppleTV is a single-core A5.

Does this mean the main difference here is the GPU core? Does the AppleTV retain dual-core PowerVR SGX543MP2, and is that why 1080p decode now is possible? (The A4 had a single-core PowerVR SGX535.) Or is the 1080p decode capability due to some other reason (alone or in combination with the GPU)?
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:06 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,