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Is Marriage worth it? (Page 2)
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imitchellg5
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Feb 1, 2012, 08:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
No I don't want to have to pick her up from work every day. driver her to the store every day. Do all the dishes and pick up after her, and cancel or not make plans because I have to take her to the dentist or to the post office or to the mall. Get nagged on because i want to eat something not healthy or want to watch a movie or play a game uninterrupted for a couple hours. To not have to work every day just to watch my money spent by some one else. That's what I mean. is all that worth it for what you get that is good?
I'm not married, but I love picking my girlfriend up from work, taking her to work, and going to appointments with her. My favorite thing in the world is waiting for her to walk out her front door when I pick her up to take her to work or go with her to school or just hang out. She had her wisdom teeth taken out a few weeks ago and I loved taking care of her. She doesn't spend my money and I don't spend her own money, we're both self-sufficient. When I buy her lunch or dinner or coffee, she's always thankful, and she always tells me that I don't have to. I love opening doors for her or walking her to her door. She doesn't leave messes, and neither do I. We both eat the same food when we're together, and sometimes it's unhealthy. And I don't have to do any of those things. She's more than capable of doing them on her own, and she wouldn't complain if I didn't do those things with her, and doesn't complain if I need to make other plans. But I want to do those things with her. I want to be the one who gets to cook with her, wash dishes with her, and sit with her at an appointment. Sounds like you just haven't found the person who is worth all that, or who makes you want to go out of the way for them.

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Waragainstsleep
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Feb 1, 2012, 08:35 PM
 
Sounds like someone got burned once or twice.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Athens  (op)
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Feb 2, 2012, 02:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Sounds like someone got burned once or twice.
Keep counting higher
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Doc HM
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Feb 2, 2012, 03:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
No I don't want to have to pick her up from work every day. driver her to the store every day. Do all the dishes and pick up after her, and cancel or not make plans because I have to take her to the dentist or to the post office or to the mall. Get nagged on because i want to eat something not healthy or want to watch a movie or play a game uninterrupted for a couple hours. To not have to work every day just to watch my money spent by some one else. That's what I mean. is all that worth it for what you get that is good?
Yup, that hits all the definitions of partnership right there. That's what marriage is ALL about. Jump on in.

Or, marry someone who isn't like that.
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imitchellg5
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Feb 4, 2012, 12:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Keep counting higher
So what you're really asking seems to be "Is marriage worth it for someone who is a terrible judge of character?"
     
glideslope
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Feb 4, 2012, 03:44 PM
 
From the point of STD's having the same partner for 40+ years is always a Lower Risk (analytically speaking.)
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Big Mac
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Feb 5, 2012, 08:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I'm not married, but I love picking my girlfriend up from work, taking her to work, and going to appointments with her. . . .
It sounds like you have something pretty great there. Happy for you.

Athens, it sounds like you're not the marrying type. At least not at this stage in your life. All personal relationships are about give and take.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Feb 5, 2012 at 08:57 AM. )

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Feb 9, 2012, 03:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
It sounds like you have something pretty great there. Happy for you.

Athens, it sounds like you're not the marrying type. At least not at this stage in your life. All personal relationships are about give and take.
From my perspective its Give give give and give....
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Athens  (op)
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Feb 9, 2012, 03:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by glideslope View Post
From the point of STD's having the same partner for 40+ years is always a Lower Risk (analytically speaking.)
That was the goal I had for having a single partner.
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exca1ibur
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Feb 9, 2012, 03:34 PM
 
I'm gonna have to say No, BIGTIME. I agree with Athens 100%, way more cons than pros, IMO.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 14, 2012, 10:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
From my perspective its Give give give and give....
So you don't have any positive models of marriage from your life up to this point?

Honestly, my parents made it work, even though there were some very rough times for them. Both sets of my grandparents made it work. Most of my aunts, uncles and cousins are happily married. And my friends, it seems like nearly all of them are happily married, some with children now. I know a lot of people don't succeed at it, but most of my family and friends have done well with their marriages.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Feb 14, 2012 at 10:18 PM. )

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ghporter
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Feb 15, 2012, 07:58 AM
 
I had the same experience as Big Mac - and perhaps importantly so did my wife. We were both brought up in families where the parents were partners and friends and parents (and quite obviously in love with each other). We still have people ask "how long have you two been married?" because we still act like we're in love with each other, and when we tell them "32 years" they are surprised, sometimes stunned.

Get married for the right reasons and work at making the relationship work (don't depend on everything working out like a sitcom) and you'll find it very worthwhile. Get married for the wrong reasons, especially if you plan to "change" the other person, and you're writing your own (bad) soap opera.

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SSharon
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Feb 15, 2012, 10:46 AM
 
I've been happily married for nearly 5 years now (after dating for 5 years) and have no regrets at all. When I was reading what imitchellg5 wrote it reminded me of how whenever I'm frustrated and stuck in traffic while driving with my wife, I realize (and often say out loud) that if I'm going to be stuck in traffic at least I'm stuck with her next to me.

Not only do I think that marriage is "worth it" I find myself puzzled about the stereotypes that mothers in law have. My wife's family is awesome.
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Feb 25, 2012, 05:55 PM
 
Like most things in life, there are good and bad parts. But in the end, it's wonderful to get to share your life with someone. You have to work at it, it's not always easy, but well worth the effort.
     
knifecarrier2
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Mar 3, 2012, 04:26 PM
 
Nope.
     
Shaddim
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Mar 17, 2012, 04:07 PM
 
Well, another reason why I think it's worth it.

6lbs 3oz, ten fingers, ten toes, and two very healthy lungs. Damn, I'm tired, been up for two days. Oh yeah, my wife is kinda wiped out too.

They say we have to take her with us when we go, but that's okay, she's kinda cute. Looks better now that she turned pink, the whole being blue thing was a little freaky. Will post pics later.
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driven
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Mar 17, 2012, 04:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Well, another reason why I think it's worth it.

6lbs 3oz, ten fingers, ten toes, and two very healthy lungs. Damn, I'm tired, been up for two days. Oh yeah, my wife is kinda wiped out too.

They say we have to take her with us when we go, but that's okay, she's kinda cute. Looks better now that she turned pink, the whole being blue thing was a little freaky. Will post pics later.
Congratulations! (and yes, kids are worth every moment!)
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ghporter
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Mar 17, 2012, 05:27 PM
 
My congratulations as well!

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Mar 17, 2012, 06:10 PM
 
Congrats!
     
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Mar 17, 2012, 07:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Well, another reason why I think it's worth it.

6lbs 3oz, ten fingers, ten toes, and two very healthy lungs. Damn, I'm tired, been up for two days. Oh yeah, my wife is kinda wiped out too.

They say we have to take her with us when we go, but that's okay, she's kinda cute. Looks better now that she turned pink, the whole being blue thing was a little freaky. Will post pics later.
Good work.

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Shaddim
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Mar 17, 2012, 10:41 PM
 
The Lambo goes nowhere! Though I have been thinking about trading for a 458, saw one at the shops two weeks ago and it actually caused a little physical pain.

But I did trade the M3 for an M5, and we're looking at estates, specifically the Merc R. They're said to have the highest safety ratings.
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TailsToo
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Mar 18, 2012, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Well, another reason why I think it's worth it.

6lbs 3oz, ten fingers, ten toes, and two very healthy lungs. Damn, I'm tired, been up for two days. Oh yeah, my wife is kinda wiped out too.

They say we have to take her with us when we go, but that's okay, she's kinda cute. Looks better now that she turned pink, the whole being blue thing was a little freaky. Will post pics later.
Congrats! Our first little one is due in September!
     
Shaddim
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Mar 19, 2012, 03:53 AM
 
Tonight I changed a diaper for the first time ever. That was so gross.
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Mar 19, 2012, 04:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Tonight I changed a diaper for the first time ever. That was so gross.
After about a week, you'll no longer care.

That mecomium stuff is pretty vile, but it's short-lived.

Beware the back-blowout.
     
Shaddim
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Mar 19, 2012, 04:33 AM
 
I kinda knew what to expect, but that stuff is the consistency of pine tar.

At least she likes changes, no fussing over it.
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Spheric Harlot
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Mar 19, 2012, 06:03 AM
 
Sing. Lots. I used to document *everything* I did with/to her with singing, with no regard to rhyme to meter. Random melodies. Doesn't matter. Just don't be insecure about it.

She loved it. Apart from the singing bit, having papa's voice explain everything in a soothing tone does worlds to calm a baby down, even if she doesn't understand one tenth of what's actually being said. Everything is new and potentially scary, all the time.
     
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Mar 19, 2012, 06:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Tonight I changed a diaper for the first time ever. That was so gross.
Over the next few months, you'll become such an expert, that the consistency, colour and smell will be able to tell you if your child is sick or not.

Oh and you'll lose all your friends.
     
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Mar 19, 2012, 06:39 AM
 
At least baby is a girl. No need to dodge and little expectation to need to shower after changing her. Unlike boys, who tend to try to be "Old Faithful" when being changed. Yeah, it can be that bad.

Your friends aren't lost, just on hold. No time for them when discovering your child, and the good ones know that.

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Mar 20, 2012, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Well, another reason why I think it's worth it.

6lbs 3oz, ten fingers, ten toes, and two very healthy lungs. Damn, I'm tired, been up for two days. Oh yeah, my wife is kinda wiped out too.

They say we have to take her with us when we go, but that's okay, she's kinda cute. Looks better now that she turned pink, the whole being blue thing was a little freaky. Will post pics later.
Marriage isn't a requirement for Children. PS Grats on the bundle of joy. I want a kid just not the wife lol
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simonjames
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Mar 20, 2012, 10:56 PM
 
IMHO marriage is not worth it and if someone wants to force you into it then there is something wrong with the person and with the relationship. As if one day is going to change your life? {rhetoric}

Marriage is not for the two people getting married - it is for the family - for the parents - for the tradition - for the owners of wedding reception houses to get richer.

The wedding day is a waste of money. In Sydney Australia the average wedding costs $60,000. That is a lot of money. Thats 3 really good overseas vacations!

For me, I have been with the same partner for 22 years and we have no intention of ever getting married. Our family and friends know who we are. We know who we are. Why change things?
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Shaddim
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Mar 21, 2012, 01:09 AM
 
Well, it was for us when we got married, no one in our families attended, and the main ceremony was at home. I think the total expense was ~$3,000, and some of that was the plane ticket for flying in the main person officiating. Plus, we spoke dead languages, got naked, there were swords, and we bled. It was hell of a lot of fun and well worth the expense, IMO.

Now, the combined bachelor/bachelorette party the night before was crazy, and expensive, but it was a bash with strippers, a band, and an open bar.

Hmm... I don't think your idea of marriage is the same as everyone else's.
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ghporter
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Mar 21, 2012, 06:55 AM
 
In my case, marriage was a combination of things. My wife and I felt strongly that we wanted to publicly commit to being a couple for the rest of our lives. We felt that it was important to be legally intertwined, to be seen as a unit, indivisible by others. And we felt (a long way down the list of important things) that it was important to have the legal benefits of marriage. Later, when we felt it was appropriate, we had our son-and not without a lot of soul searching before actively attempting to conceive.

Athens, while marriage is not an absolute requirement for bearing and raising children, it has been shown that a stable home situation with two parents on hand confers a significant benefit to children in terms of behavior, academics and adult success. This doesn't absolutely require marriage, but it's so much easier for a committed couple to provide the stability with the legal benefits and obligations that come from formal marriage.

Simonjames, my wedding cost $10, and was conducted by a municipal judge. It was a wonderful ceremony, even if we had only the judge and two friends as witnesses. Going overboard about the ceremony, spending tons of money and making it an extravaganza, do nothing but add to the stress on the couple. I have a coworker who has said more than once that if she had it to do over, she'd have eloped with her fiance and completely skipped all the family issues, dress-stress, "pre-wedding" events and so on. The ceremony isn't the point, the commitment is the point. Families seem to think that their children, even when they are at an age to get married, are still accessories for them to dress up and trot out for the rest of the world to gush about. They are wrong.

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Mar 21, 2012, 01:04 PM
 
"stable home situation with two parents" the key word, stable. Not very many homes fit that label.
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Mar 21, 2012, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
"stable home situation with two parents" the key word, stable. Not very many homes fit that label.
Yes. Unfortunately, the two are only correlated insofar as that destructive environments are often prolonged due to the sanctity of marriage, with disastrous results to the kids.

At least, that's my anecdotal experience from friends, acquaintances, etc.

I'm all for marriage to show commitment.
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 11:05 PM
 
In a study incidental to my graduate work, I correlated low income families with poor parenting skills 100% in one community, and was able to track this back at least two generations. The gist is that when the great-grandparent generation was having kids, both parents worked so much outside the home that they did little active parenting, so the grandparent generation did not "learn by example" the technique of parenting. This trickled down to today's parent generation which, though honestly trying to be decent parents, was unable to establish the essentials of the parent-child relationship.

Unfortunately, it hasn't taken low income to cause similar problems in most other communities, so parenting, even with committed and earnestly trying parents, isn't too effective. Still, having two involved parents on hand reduces strife and stress in the household, and typically indicates a higher potential household income, which also helps predict academic and life success.

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Mar 22, 2012, 02:50 AM
 
I would agree with a lot of that.

A different study is showing that modern birthing methods could be playing a role as well. Since hospitals now have birthing to a science and scheduled down to a few hours, the heavy use of drugs to induce labor is also having a effect on the chemicals that create the bond between mother and child. This is affecting growing up children in very negative ways. still many years left of study on this effect but the early evidence is pretty damning. Natural births with midwifes is looking better and better with every study.
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Mar 22, 2012, 03:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Since hospitals now have birthing to a science and scheduled down to a few hours, the heavy use of drugs to induce labor is also having a effect on the chemicals that create the bond between mother and child. This is affecting growing up children in very negative ways. still many years left of study on this effect but the early evidence is pretty damning. Natural births with midwifes is looking better and better with every study.
Early evidence? Is that just because no one has been actively studying this?

Because overuse of drugs during births in hospitals has been rampant since post WWII 40's when it went from something you did at home completely naturally, to something you went to the hospital for. Standard procedure was to knock the woman completely out on drugs. Only recently has natural birth come back into vogue.

My older brother was born in a NYC hospital in the late 60's- my Mom told me about how things were back then and I found it kind of shocking. She was carted off on her own, went through labor for hours completely alone, knocked unconscious on drugs during delivery, awoken hours after the birth, and hours more before she ever held my bro. And that old stereotype of dads pacing some smoke filled waiting room, only to be shown a baby through glass and told 'congrats it's a boy' long after a delivery he never set foot anywhere near: totally true.

She told me when I was born in the 70's it wasn't much better- she was awake, but still heavily drugged, my dad allowed nowhere near, and baby Crash whisked away somewhere right after birth.

And all that sort of thing was pretty much standard operating procedure until very recently.

So if Moms have been becoming increasingly detached to their children due to unnatural birth processes, there should be mountains of evidence that shows a clear trend of this dating back to the late 1940's. (My parents are excellent parents BTW, so it didn't affect them.)
     
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Mar 22, 2012, 04:15 AM
 
You are confusing pain medications with medications that induce labor itself. Pitocin has only been in use in the last 20 years for child birth. You and your brother did not suffer from INDUCED labor but from natural labor, your mom went to the hospital in labor. She didn't go to the hospital at a date set by doctors then put into labor by a drug.

Oxytocin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Recent studies have begun to investigate oxytocin's role in various behaviors, including orgasm, social recognition, pair bonding, anxiety, and maternal behaviors.[1] For this reason, it is sometimes referred to as the "love hormone". The inability to secrete oxytocin and feel empathy is linked to sociopathy, psychopathy, narcissism and general manipulativeness.[2]
The artificial one has been found in recent research to block the affect of Oxytocin leading to no pair bonding, sociopathy and other disorders. Natural birth can be done in a hospital and the use of pain drugs as well, whats natural is the letting the labor part start on its own.
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Mar 22, 2012, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by simonjames View Post
For me, I have been with the same partner for 22 years and we have no intention of ever getting married. Our family and friends know who we are. We know who we are. Why change things?
At least in the US, marriage has some technical benefits (not necessarily benefits, but differences) you wouldn't get otherwise. Filing taxes jointly, right of spouse to make medical decisions, estate laws and insurance laws that benefit the spouse, etc.

I agree that weddings have gotten overly expensive, but that doesn't mean they are useless.

Glenn, have you noticed any truth in the opposite financial situations? Are extremely wealthy parents who work long hours, travel a lot, or spend their free time playing golf or at fundraisers less effective as parents? Are nannies sufficient replacements for parents when it comes to passing along parenting skills?
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Mar 22, 2012, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
You are confusing pain medications with medications that induce labor itself. Pitocin has only been in use in the last 20 years for child birth. You and your brother did not suffer from INDUCED labor but from natural labor, your mom went to the hospital in labor. She didn't go to the hospital at a date set by doctors then put into labor by a drug.
We're talking about different things. Your use of 'natural birth' and midwife use doesn't relate specifically to induced labor in the way you were using it. There's a much wider meaning to 'natural birth' than that. What I described (which was common) was far from natural birth- women giving birth while completely unconscious, and the child delivered via forceps (IE: the old salad tongs). You can hardly devise a more unnatural birth.

Therefore I was talking more about the belief that the mother bonds with her child based on skin-to-skin contact right after birth, and that this clearly never happens if she's not even conscious, or so zonked out on drugs that she's not even aware of anything.

You're right of course, the problems of induced labor drugs are a whole different way the natural bond gets messed with- but it is possible to have induced labor combined with a more natural process during birth where the mother still gets that initial contact and natural bonding right after birth.

Anyway, we're way off topic. If this were really all that interesting it should have its own thread. But it's not really that interesting.


ON TOPIC: Marriage between the right two people= great, one of the most natural and rewarding of human relationships. Marriage between two people who are wrong for each other = hell.

Find out which is the case before you get married because its nearly impossible to make the later situation into the former.
     
Athens  (op)
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Mar 22, 2012, 12:55 PM
 
Any couple living together in a sexual relationship here after 12 months are considered common-law and have to file taxes as a couple and get all the same benefits as a married couple. Gay and straight.

Crash, your right, I was lazy with what I said, it was late. I should have said natural labor.
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Mar 22, 2012, 01:14 PM
 
In Anna Karenina, Tolstoy has one of his characters defend marriage in the following way:

Women are the main stumbling block in a man's life. It is hard to love a woman and do anything. And there is only one way of loving without this hinderance, and that it marriage.

It is as if you are carrying a burden and doing something with your hands is only possible if the burden is tied to your back. Once I got married, I suddenly had my hands free. But dragging this burden around without marriage will make your hands so full you won't be able to do anything.

And believe me, knowing the one wife you love you know all women better than if you had known thousands of them.
I paraphrase, obviously.
     
Tiresias
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Mar 22, 2012, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post

destructive environments are often prolonged due to the sanctity of marriage, with disastrous results to the kids.
This is true, but there is something else worth considering.

If marriage is regarded as sacred, and therefore indissoluble, that can be a powerful incentive to maintaining harmony.

Imagine, by way of analogy, that you are serving a life sentence with a cellmate. How will you treat them? Unless you want to spend the rest of your life squabbling, fighting, having your things stolen—with no possible escape—you will treat them very well indeed.

But that only works when both spouses are totally reconciled to the idea that their marriage is forever. If there's an out, then you are free to ruin the relationship.

I think this is why celebrity marriages so often fail under the best imaginable material circumstances. The fact that it is easy for these people to divorce increases the likelihood that they will divorce. And not simply because they don't have to remain in a bad marriage out of material necessity. I mean that knowing from the onset that divorce is readily available to both of them removes a powerful incentive to maintain harmony and affects the way they treat each other.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 22, 2012, 01:38 PM
 
I understand what you're saying, and, as always, there's two sides to everything.

I have come in contact with a lot more dysfunctional families than those where the sanctity of marriage would have perpetuated a *good* thing.

And honestly, if one treats one's spouse badly, it is rarely a matter of "choice", but one of personal history and upbringing. The "sanctity of marriage" bit generally encourages the receiving end of the stick to stay, which reinforces the status quo.
     
Tiresias
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Mar 22, 2012, 02:14 PM
 
True.

I guess you have described the unhappy rule, and I the happy exception.

Once my daughter got to be about four, and I fell madly in love with her, I realized that there was no way in hell I could ever pack a suitcase and walk out of her life.

That was it. Come what may, I knew I had to stay with wife. And that had a noticeable impact on how I treated her.

I kind of think of my wife now as my siamese twin. If she annoys me, shall I elbow her in the ribs? There's short term gratification in it for me. But once that wears off, there she is, screaming in my ear, knocking my glass of beer out of my hand, stomping on my toe.



Our lives are now so intimately enmeshed that doing wrong to her is the same as doing wrong to myself. And as a result, because like most people I am selfish, I treat her well.

That was what I had in mind. And if there were an easy out, I'm not sure I would be able to find it in myself to do that.
     
simonjames
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Mar 23, 2012, 12:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
At least in the US, marriage has some technical benefits (not necessarily benefits, but differences) you wouldn't get otherwise. Filing taxes jointly, right of spouse to make medical decisions, estate laws and insurance laws that benefit the spouse, etc.
In Australia I believe the legal definition of spouse is living in an interdependent relationship for 12 months - this applies to straight and same sex relations. That said the government of Australia still discriminates against the gay population - benefits given to straight families are denied to families with same sex partners.

The government actually gives normal income to low income families $6,000 AUD each time they have a child.
Couples earning a combined wage of $150K/year and over get nothing. $150K in Sydney does not go far.

As to the Tolstoy quote - I've never read such tripe before. If you need marriage to show your love then there is something wrong with you. Same goes for people who do St Valentines day. If you have to wait for one day a year to pay over the odds to show you love your partner then (IMHO) you are emotionally crippled. I surprise my partner with flowers and gifts at the oddest of times - the unexpected gift is worth a thousand expected gifts.
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