Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Shut it down!

View Poll Results: Will the Govt. get shutdown?
Poll Options:
Yup 9 votes (64.29%)
Nope 5 votes (35.71%)
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll
Shut it down! (Page 2)
Thread Tools
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Okay, fixed.
Ok.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Few see it that way because people don't believe they'll actually get old, until they arrive.
Or like you said earlier, believe they'll get sick.
     
Mrjinglesusa
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Why do you care?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Whether they care or not, obviously congress does. The only fix to this, unless Dems want to throw the next fiscal year away, is to rework the few contentious parts of the ACA.
No, "Congress" doesn't care. Republicans in Congress care, and probably not even all of them as evidenced by some rationale Republicans trying to get a vote on "clean" bill.

And reworking/gutting/whatever the ACA isn't the only way to fix this - that is the way Republicans what to "fix" this - by holding hostage the budget until they get their way.

I get that they are still pissed and want changes to the ACA. Fine. Then propose SEPARATE legislation to make changes that you want. THAT is how laws are changed. Hell, I bet some Democrats might even vote for reasonable changes to the ACA if it weren't tied to the budget.

Trying to tack on ACA provisions to the budget is complete horsesh*t.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm not sure how this relates. If this average 24 year old is making what an average 24 year old makes in a month, with the subsidies his insurance will quite likely cost him less than $50/month, which as I pointed is less than what he pays for his cellphone and internet service.

You're quite right that the average 24 year old may not *want* to buy health insurance, but he may not want to buy auto insurance either, or his license/registration, or pay his taxes, or whatever else. I empathize with these frustrations, but unfortunately all of these mandates are just something that makes all of this stuff work in any sort of society.
Not sure where you're getting $50, unless you talking about a minimum wage job. If I put in $30k /yr as salary (typical), as a normal non-smoking 24 y/o dude, it comes up as $210 /mo.

Subsidy Calculator | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

"Screw that, that's 4 new games for my PS4. It's bad enough I have to pay payroll taxes and car insurance, which are both lame, I'm not forking out another 200 bucks every month when I'm never sick, dude."
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
No, "Congress" doesn't care. Republicans in Congress care, and probably not even all of them as evidenced by some rationale Republicans trying to get a vote on "clean" bill.

And reworking/gutting/whatever the ACA isn't the only way to fix this - that is the way Republicans what to "fix" this - by holding hostage the budget until they get their way.

I get that they are still pissed and want changes to the ACA. Fine. Then propose SEPARATE legislation to make changes that you want. THAT is how laws are changed. Hell, I bet some Democrats might even vote for reasonable changes to the ACA if it weren't tied to the budget.

Trying to tack on ACA provisions to the budget is complete horsesh*t.
It was horseshit the way it was passed, and it's altered horseshit the way it stands. Democrats in congress shouldn't be surprised when underhanded things come back to bite them in the ass, and that's what happens when you play by the "ends justify the means" rules.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:19 PM
 
Maybe polls should not be used for arguing for or against Obamacare?

The truth is, Americans love Obamacare - latimes.com
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
I get that they are still pissed and want changes to the ACA. Fine. Then propose SEPARATE legislation to make changes that you want. THAT is how laws are changed. Hell, I bet some Democrats might even vote for reasonable changes to the ACA if it weren't tied to the budget.

Yes, and plus, they had upwards of 2 years to do this!
     
Mrjinglesusa
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Why do you care?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe polls should not be used for arguing for or against Obamacare?

The truth is, Americans love Obamacare - latimes.com
Along those same lines:

Obamacare clocks in at just 29% support in a recent CNBC poll. So you'd think that the Republicans' position of repealing the ACA would be more mainstream. But you'd be wrong.

That same CNBC poll shows that Americans oppose defunding Obamacare, with only a little more than one-third of voters saying they want it defunded. They want to mend it, not end it.

What's worse for the Republicans, when the question shifts to whether you support shutting down the government and/or defaulting on U.S. debt in order to kill Obamacare, the GOP position loses by a crushing 59 to 19 percentage points. When you're down to just 19% of your countrymen and -women supporting your crusade, it's time (as we say in Texas) to pee on the fire and call the dogs: The hunt's over.
Opinion: Bet on Obama to win shutdown fight - CNN.com

Yeah, sure sounds like the Republicans are on solid ground with the majority of Americans.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Not sure where you're getting $50, unless you talking about a minimum wage job. If I put in $30k /yr as salary (typical), as a normal non-smoking 24 y/o dude, it comes up as $210 /mo.

Subsidy Calculator | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

"Screw that, that's 4 new games for my PS4. It's bad enough I have to pay payroll taxes and car insurance, which are both lame, I'm not forking out another 200 bucks every month when I'm never sick, dude."

State: US Average
Income: $30,000
2 adults in family, no children
age 24, non-smokers

Bronze plan is $931/year, or around $78/month.

What state are you in?
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:29 PM
 
^ what a great deal!

I pay ~$250 a month for my family health insurance, and my employer picks up the rest of the $1900. I'm not eligible for assistance.

Back in the day, I had no health insurance. When I was sick, going to the doc-in-the-box clinic and paying out of pocket, was also not cheap.
     
Mrjinglesusa
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Why do you care?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It was horseshit the way it was passed, and it's altered horseshit the way it stands. Democrats in congress shouldn't be surprised when underhanded things come back to bite them in the ass, and that's what happens when you play by the "ends justify the means" rules.
None of that changes my point that there are ways to change laws that don't involved shutting down the entire Federal government.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
^ what a great deal!

I pay ~$250 a month for my family health insurance, and my employer picks up the rest of the $1900. I'm not eligible for assistance.

It is a great deal. I live in Indiana and if my wife and I made $30,000 (we make more than this, but just maintaining this as a baseline) our Bronze plan would be $27/month for our zip code, and Indiana's averages are apparently pretty high compared to some other states.

We pay $275/month now. If I can drop this in half with Obamacare, I would be happy unless I'm in that very small hyper-ideological right wing group (and even then it would be interesting to hear the arguments against this kind of savings). Surely the Republicans see this, and that is part of their problem with this.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
State: US Average
Income: $30,000
2 adults in family, no children
age 24, non-smokers

Bronze plan is $931/year, or around $78/month.

What state are you in?
2 people making $30k /yr combined? Kinda changes the playing field, doesn't it? Try one 24 y/o guy, which is what I was talking about.

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe polls should not be used for arguing for or against Obamacare?

The truth is, Americans love Obamacare - latimes.com
They love the IDEA of Obamacare, equality in coverage, but the reality of it is likely a different thing.

Silly comparison in a way, but whatever. The Jedi loved the concept of "balance in the force" (who wouldn't want "balance"?) until they found out what it actually meant.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
None of that changes my point that there are ways to change laws that don't involved shutting down the entire Federal government.
I'm not saying you have to like it, but that's what is going on. Dirty deeds aren't always dirt cheap, there's a price down the line.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
2 people making $30k /yr? Kinda changes the playing field, doesn't it? Try one 24 y/o guy, which is what I was talking about.


So, $167/month. You're right that some would balk at that, but then again, $30,000/year is not poverty, as your summary shows. A single person can manage on $2,500/month before taxes. Poverty is more like $12,000/year:

Federal Poverty Guidelines
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
They love the IDEA of Obamacare, equality in coverage, but the reality of it is likely a different thing.

Silly comparison in a way, but whatever. The Jedi loved the concept of "balance in the force" (who wouldn't want "balance"?) until they found out what it actually meant.

My point is that polls mean shit. Jimmy Kimmel did this bit where he asked people whether they preferred Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act, and of course the expected stupid answers ensued. Obviously this doesn't mean much, but if intelligent people like us aren't completely sure what Obamacare is about, Joe Sixpack has no fighting chance. Obama has done a lousy job explaining what will change (although this new website seems pretty clear), people naturally fear the unknown.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 05:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So, $167/month. You're right that some would balk at that, but then again, $30,000/year is not poverty, as your summary shows. A single person can manage on $2,500/month before taxes. Poverty is more like $12,000/year:

Federal Poverty Guidelines
2512 divided by 12 is $209.33 /mo, but whatever.

I wasn't talking about poverty level before, but typical middle-class guy. Yeah, they can "manage", but that's an "old person's" perspective, theirs is that it's a waste of money that can go to things they feel they really need, like rims, beer, and movies.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 06:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
2512 divided by 12 is $209.33 /mo, but whatever.

I wasn't talking about poverty level before, but typical middle-class guy. Yeah, they can "manage", but that's an "old person's" perspective, theirs is that it's a waste of money that can go to things they feel they really need, like rims, beer, and movies.

I completely 100% agree that the individual mandate is going to make many people grumpy. My only contention is that on the whole more people will probably be happy to have insurance they can afford than not, and others not benefiting from the subsidies probably won't mind either unless their expenses increase.

I think we tend to forget that a very small percentage of this population is overly ideological. The vast majority of people will sign up, go "cool, this is cheaper, I'll take it", and that will be the end of it.

Sorry about the wrong number, I obviously punched the wrong thing into my calculator.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 06:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
My point is that polls mean shit. Jimmy Kimmel did this bit where he asked people whether they preferred Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act, and of course the expected stupid answers ensued. Obviously this doesn't mean much, but if intelligent people like us aren't completely sure what Obamacare is about, Joe Sixpack has no fighting chance. Obama has done a lousy job explaining what will change (although this new website seems pretty clear), people naturally fear the unknown.
The ACA has been nothing but "the unknown". Hell, they had to "pass it to see what was in it". It's such a murky lump of uncertainty that there's no wonder there's all this contention over it. It needs to be taken apart and studied, piece by piece, with the information being publicly handed out in an understandable format, before any money goes into funding it. The whole "get something out there" followed by "do whatever it takes" has been to blame for a lot of the shit we're seeing now.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 06:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The ACA has been nothing but "the unknown". Hell, they had to "pass it to see what was in it". It's such a murky lump of uncertainty that there's no wonder there's all this contention over it. It needs to be taken apart and studied, piece by piece, with the information being publicly handed out in an understandable format, before any money goes into funding it. The whole "get something out there" followed by "do whatever it takes" has been to blame for a lot of the wager we're seeing now.
Maybe it would have been easier to have accomplished this if half of our politicians weren't hell bent on destroying this just cause? Comon Shaddim, surely you have to see that a number of Republicans were far more committed to playing party politics with this than they were interested in genuinely going through this piece by piece?

The ACA is "the unknown" to Joe Sixpack because of all of the confusing rhetoric out there. Making people scared is far easier than teaching them what this legislation will mean to them.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 06:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I completely 100% agree that the individual mandate is going to make many people grumpy. My only contention is that on the whole more people will probably be happy to have insurance they can afford than not, and others not benefiting from the subsidies probably won't mind either unless their expenses increase.

I think we tend to forget that a very small percentage of this population is overly ideological. The vast majority of people will sign up, go "cool, this is cheaper, I'll take it", and that will be the end of it.

Sorry about the wrong number, I obviously punched the wrong thing into my calculator.
It's only cheaper if they've had to pay for it before, most in that bracket haven't had coverage since they were on their parents' plans, if even then. They won't be grumpy, they just won't pay it and opt for the lower fine.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It's only cheaper if they've had to pay for it before, most in that bracket haven't had coverage since they were on their parents' plans, if even then. They won't be grumpy, they just won't pay it and opt for the lower fine.

We'll see... It will be an interesting and rocky transition, to be sure, but one that is necessary. I don't see how you can bring costs down without the individual mandate, as insurance best works in high volumes.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 06:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe it would have been easier to have accomplished this if half of our politicians weren't hell bent on destroying this just cause? Comon Shaddim, surely you have to see that a number of Republicans were far more committed to playing party politics with this than they were interested in genuinely going through this piece by piece?
That's simply partisan bias, both sides have been playing this since it all began. Republicans don't like parts of it, the Tea party wants to kill it all-together, and the Democrats are pissed that all their political wrangling to get this through has now ground to a halt when it's come time to write the checks (or IOUs as the case may be). It's a big mess, but yelling at the Right isn't going to just make them buckle. Who do you think is more reasonable in this? Yeah, you're probably right in what you're thinking, and that's why we are where we are, with a gov't that's in hibernation and facing a months' long vacation.

The ACA is "the unknown" to Joe Sixpack because of all of the confusing rhetoric out there. Making people scared is far easier than teaching them what this legislation will mean to them.
You only want to see the good in it, others only want to see the bad. The fact that this has been handled so poorly is a huge part of the problem. Well, that and telling people what they're going to do, that's a sure way to get a stubborn response.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 06:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
That's simply partisan bias, both sides have been playing this since it all began. Republicans don't like parts of it, the Tea party wants to kill it all-together, and the Democrats are pissed that all their political wrangling to get this through has now ground to a halt when it's come time to write the checks (or IOUs as the case may be). It's a big mess, but yelling at the Right isn't going to just make them buckle. Who do you think is more reasonable in this? Yeah, you're probably right in what you're thinking, and that's why we are where we are, with a gov't that's in hibernation and facing a months' long vacation.



You only want to see the good in it, others only want to see the bad. The fact that this has been handled so poorly is a huge part of the problem. Well, that and telling people what they're going to do, that's a sure way to get a stubborn response.


I agree that there is plenty of blame to pass around, and obviously my frustrations over this shutdown are coloring this because I don't think this is any sort of excuse for these particular actions, but I think more of this mess is on the Republicans. I'm a fair and reasonable guy (I think), but I can't buy into the equal blame thing here...

Not because of any particular beliefs or actions, but because their party is a fractured mix of Republicans and Tea Party people, like you pointed out. A vocal percentage of the latter's stated agenda seems to be nothing more than for Obama to fail, while the former (McCain et all) don't seem to really know what to do about managing the messaging from their party. Obviously the Tea Party types have been getting a lot more media attention because of the extreme nature of their viewpoints, but who speaks for the party as a whole?

Of course, none of this is actually about any of this though, it all boils down to one faction of Corporate America vs. another. These labels are just proxies.
     
el chupacabra
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2013, 07:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Shiiit, that was back in... 2006? I've slept since then, but I'm pretty sure it was a Super Bowl poll.
shiiit remind me never to get on your bad side
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 3, 2013, 06:10 AM
 
Meh, the problem is that I often I remember when a specific person did something, but not exactly what it was, or, I remember what was done, but not exactly who did it.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 3, 2013, 12:13 PM
 


Man, some of the numbnuts over there.
     
BadKosh
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 3, 2013, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
BadKosh: do you think you would be happier if you didn't work for NASA, given your ideological positions against government?
Why do you always assume that you know others thoughts? You are NOT a mind reader, and you really have no concept of how anyone thinks. I am STILL HAPPY I work there. I'm pretty sick of the democrats whining that their poorly thought out ACA is so broken, but they did have to vote for it to see what was in it. Translated, DEMOCRATS bought a Pig-In-A-Poke. It has made everything else more expensive, and still leaves 30 million without healthcare, which is the numbers they started with.
     
BadKosh
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 3, 2013, 03:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
It is a great deal. I live in Indiana and if my wife and I made $30,000 (we make more than this, but just maintaining this as a baseline) our Bronze plan would be $27/month for our zip code, and Indiana's averages are apparently pretty high compared to some other states.

We pay $275/month now. If I can drop this in half with Obamacare, I would be happy unless I'm in that very small hyper-ideological right wing group (and even then it would be interesting to hear the arguments against this kind of savings). Surely the Republicans see this, and that is part of their problem with this.
Things still cost the same or more, and the money has to come from someplace. Probably all the other fees, taxes and BS in the ACA. Even a fee when you sell your house.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 3, 2013, 03:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Why do you always assume that you know others thoughts? You are NOT a mind reader, and you really have no concept of how anyone thinks.
That's why it was a question. I'll keep this statement in mind the next time you profile Democrats though.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 3, 2013, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Things still cost the same or more, and the money has to come from someplace. Probably all the other fees, taxes and BS in the ACA. Even a fee when you sell your house.

The money does come from someplace. Do you presume to know better than the CBO projections, or are they only non-partisan when your guy is in office?
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 3, 2013, 09:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
The money does come from someplace. Do you presume to know better than the CBO projections, or are they only non-partisan when your guy is in office?
They're only non-partisan when they're given non partisan inputs.

The money comes from the citizenry at large, and its misappropriation alongside violation after violation of the public trust has led us to where we are today.

I for one am glad the government shut down. Hopefully it will be enough for the population at large to look more closely at the issues in play vs the same bullshit coming from this administration. They're even ordering national parks closed that receive no public funding, as well as barricading open air monuments from our WW2 vets. Is this your hope and change?

Hope - That Obama and his cronies can continue to game the American public into higher distribution of wealth as the government sees fit via taxes, a government that decides what laws apply to who, and an NSA that's using our constitution as toilet paper.

Change - To change the foundation of this country from one of "Equal under the law" to "the government decides" via secret courts, abdication of executive duties to uphold existing law, and an IRS that's looking more and more like Obama's private enforcers. Even after the first scandal, they're at it again


The single biggest issue that I have with the ACA, aside from its obvious insolvency, is that certain groups including Obama's union friends, congress, and a select few others with big lobbies are exempted from the law. Bess, didn't you say that it would only work if everyone was mandated to participate? So why do we have any exemptions and how do you justify them?

Don't we have an amendment for this? Oh yeah, The 14th Amendment). Well whatever, we've already decided that the 1st, 2nd and 4th don't apply anymore why not add another one to it? The only one that seems safe at this point is the 5th, just by virtue of its heavy use by administration officials over and over again.

Edit:
Oh, and here's how I'm really hoping this plays out.

1. GOP only demands that everyone have to participate in Obamacare today. No exemptions, delays, waivers, favors, special conditions for anyone, including Congress and the president. Demand only equality under the law, and it's a win for the GOP. No one will oppose such a measure except for the people receiving the favors, and the public will turn on Obama if he keeps the government shut down to protect his cronies. The DNC will tear itself apart as they lose the support of the unions and big businesses they are exempting from Obamacare.
( Last edited by Snow-i; Oct 3, 2013 at 10:16 PM. )
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 3, 2013, 11:19 PM
 
Since we're only getting partial government, we should expect to pay less for it, right? Until this is over it's perfectly reasonable to just pay half of or normal taxes, for the days they're shutdown.

One of my friends had his audit indefinitely postponed due to it, so far I'm really liking this.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 3, 2013, 11:27 PM
 
We're cleaning our section of the Smoky Mountain national park, BTW (we're directly next door), they told us (our community) we couldn't and that we were trespassing. However, there's no one there to arrest anyone and when they asked for assistance the local police told them to stick it, they had more important things to do than harass people who are collecting litter. We did have to cut the locks off the park restroom doors though, so we'll leave them a few bucks in the donation box (which wasn't locked up) to buy some new ones.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 3, 2013, 11:58 PM
 
What a phenomenal douchebag: GOP Rep. to ranger: You should be ashamed

Is that your rep Shaddim?
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 12:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
What a phenomenal douchebag: GOP Rep. to ranger: You should be ashamed

Is that your rep Shaddim?
Can you read?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 12:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Can you read?
I can. I still don't know if that's your rep.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 03:05 AM
 
Oh, I see. Geography tip: the Smoky Mountains aren't in Texas (where that rep is from). See? It says: Rep. Randy Neugebauer (R-Tex.)
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 03:46 AM
 
I thought you lived in Texas, which is why I asked. I'm not familiar with all of America's national parks. Outside of Yellowstone or the Grand Canyon, you might as well be discussing the geography of the lunar surface.
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 03:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post


Man, some of the numbnuts over there.
Well, he's a numbnut for saying it, but that's pretty much what they're thinking. The GOP House won concessions before in exchange for taking a necessary vote. Dems now think that that was a mistake, because they get blackmailed again this time, and they didn't get anything for being responsible last time. Add to this fact the current House "regular order" processes that make sure absolutely nothing gets done, and Dems are sick and tired of being the bigger man. They're very reluctant to give anything at all, and Obama doesn't have to worry about reelection - he probably thinks that no matter what happens in 2014, it can't be any worse than this.

The GOP House, meanwhile, has a very tricky climbdown to make. While the elections are a while off, it's not yet too late to mount a primary challenge, and no amount of gerrymandering will save them from that. They need some sort of win to bring back to motivate the shutdown, and they don't know what that might be.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 04:19 AM
 
"Bigger men" wouldn't have passed the ACA the way they did in the first place. Not to mention, the current iteration of the ACA isn't what they voted on either. If Obama were able to act like a President, rather than a monarch, it wouldn't have turned out this way.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 07:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
"Bigger men" wouldn't have passed the ACA the way they did in the first place. Not to mention, the current iteration of the ACA isn't what they voted on either. If Obama were able to act like a President, rather than a monarch, it wouldn't have turned out this way.
What's most rich about all this is the feigned concern over abuses to the Budget process as if there had actually been a Budget process under the Democrat Senate. The passage of the ACA was entirely behind closed doors; the Cornhusker kickback, bribes, waivers from the LAW OF THE LAND... nothing about the move was in "good faith" so I'm afraid their calls for good faith negotiation will fall on deaf ears.

Until we succumb entirely to a mob rules system of government, Democrats are going to have to learn to compromise. They've not been the "bigger" man in this. If I called you a tea-bagging, hostage-taking terrorist akin to the Taliban, and constantly derided your party for essentially all the woes of legislative folly from the highest podium on the globe; I'm guessing the table of "negotiation" is going to be pretty contentious and awkward out of the gate.

I refer back to Newton's Law III: To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction. The more contentious the initial action, the more contentious the opposite reaction. Is this the new normal? Yes. You've apparently created as many hostage-taking, Taliban-like TEABAGGERS in the US as you've caused terrorists in the Middle East and as long as Reid and Obama control the narrative in Washington, this is in fact the new normal.
ebuddy
     
P
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 09:09 AM
 
All I'm doing is explaining why a GOP congressman would say that he wanted something but didn't know what. Do you think I have described the motivations of the various parties unfairly? Not that you think their reactions are unjustified or anything like that - I think it's fairly clear at this point that you don't agree with most of what Obama says or does - but do you think I've read the situation wrongly?
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Democrats are going to have to learn to compromise.
What are the Democrats being offered right now?
     
BLAZE_MkIV
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 11:15 AM
 
I just love Obama's retoric about this.

Finish this sentence...
"We don't negotiate with ______ "
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 11:21 AM
 
Hostage takers?

Economic terrorists?
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 12:35 PM
 
children?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 01:01 PM
 
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 01:56 PM
 
Is there a piece of this I'm missing?

Randy Neugebauer-Park Ranger video: Flag-wearing GOP congressman berates park ranger doing her job.

The congressman says the Park Ranger should be ashamed the park is closed.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2013, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is there a piece of this I'm missing?

Randy Neugebauer-Park Ranger video: Flag-wearing GOP congressman berates park ranger doing her job.

The congressman says the Park Ranger should be ashamed the park is closed.
Twilight Zone, right?
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:40 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,