Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > WTF, Brian Williams?

WTF, Brian Williams?
Thread Tools
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 8, 2015, 12:20 PM
 
His apologists have budged me a little, but not much. He's rapidly approaching "dead to me" status.
     
BadKosh
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 8, 2015, 02:55 PM
 
NBC hasn't been a credible news source for decades. Just ask Al Sharpton.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 8, 2015, 02:58 PM
 
I was always a Dan Rather fan, I stopped watching the evening news soon after he retired.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 8, 2015, 03:21 PM
 
Williams' Katrina reports are being scutinized.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 9, 2015, 11:55 AM
 
I'm firmly in the "don't trust the media" camp, but the issue I've always had is most journalists believe they can rise above their bias and be objective.

They can't. This kind of lie I'm used to.

Adding "facts" to personal stories? That's unusual. Even more so for a player like Williams.
     
BadKosh
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 9, 2015, 12:19 PM
 
I think the omissions to news is far worse. Opinions stated as facts can be identified. Lies are just lies.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 9, 2015, 12:31 PM
 
I'd say most of the lies come from reporters who think they have a handle on their biases, and they don't.

They usually won't just make stuff up. Misunderstand? Sure. Not put effort into understanding? No question. Invent things which didn't happen out of whole cloth? No.
     
BadKosh
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 9, 2015, 01:24 PM
 
Oh, and research is also missing these days. They seem to repeat the same phrases like they are being coached or told what to say. This is why I don't even bother with nitwork news anymore.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 9, 2015, 01:30 PM
 
No question there. News stories have become meme-like in their propagation.
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 9, 2015, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
No question there. News stories have become meme-like in their propagation.
At this point their content is about just as reliable as well. One of my favorite past times is reading a few different sites that document complete BS news stories, often with clickbait headlines that are later quietly recanted.

Journalism is dying in the age of page-view driven revenues, and such slop is propagating (and has been for some time) up to the very top levels of the major news outlets.

We don't get the news anymore, we are subjected to infotainment. My list for "reliable" news sites is seriously short, and does not include any of the major outlets.


EDIT: You'll probably remember some of these headlines:

http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/5...iends-part-24/
http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/8...iends-part-21/

And thats the 21st and 24th entry in just that particular series.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 9, 2015, 02:26 PM
 
This is the example which comes immediately to mind.

The quote below is from the Washington Post. It's in regards to a talk given by former NSA/CIA director Gen. Michael Hayden. His statements were widely reported in this manner.

"[Hayden] went on to dismiss Snowden supporters as "nihilists, anarchists, activists, Lulzsec, Anonymous, twenty-somethings who haven't talked to the opposite sex in five or six years.'"


In case you're curious, he didn't say Snowden supporters are these groups, he said these groups are Snowden supporters.

So, either the Post regurgitated what they read on some blog while ignoring the primary source a mere Google search away, or they fail to understand subject and predicate. Take your pick.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 9, 2015, 02:57 PM
 
Where the media really falls down here is Hayden making the outlandish statement he's credited with should make anyone truly worthy of the title "journalist" seek to explain it. Is it really even possible the former head of the frigging NSA is this dense? If it is, wouldn't there be, I don't know... a story there somewhere?
     
BadKosh
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 9, 2015, 03:39 PM
 
Perhaps its a bigger issue of clouding what ARE facts and details with BS and lies so at some point 'nobody' knows the truth. While not a "news source" I was watching The History Channel and their story on the SR-71/A-12/D21 spy planes and they reported the D21 drone was using the same engines as the SR71. This is complete BS, as they used a pure ramjet.

"Kelly Johnson wanted to power the D-21 with a ramjet engine built by Marquardt for the Boeing CIM-10 Bomarc long-range surface-to-air missile. Marquardt and Lockheed had already collaborated on several programs and had a close working relationship. The engine, the RJ43-MA-11, required modification, since it was only designed to burn as long as the missile needed to hit a target. In contrast, the D-21's engine needed to operate at high temperatures for at least an hour and a half at high altitudes. The modified engine was designated as the RJ43-MA20S-4" . I don't think history is made this way, but created by the ignorant, or information was requested t be obscured by the Gov't.
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 9, 2015, 06:50 PM
 
Brian and Hilary in a one up contest.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 10, 2015, 03:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
His apologists have budged me a little, but not much. He's rapidly approaching "dead to me" status.
It's probably true that he didn't know he was lying, but he two problems:
A. He's the first person that is having this little-known scientific fact used for
B. Regardless, intentional or not, the damage to his credibility is real, and as such he can not be reasonably used as the face of their news.

His career doesn't have to be sacrificed, but his prominent position does.


Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
We don't get the news anymore, we are subjected to infotainment
Amen. I feel like my life is improved by not having cable. Now I get news through forums. If something is news worthy, it'll get a thread made and I'll then hear about it. From there I can google other sources for verification/elaboration.
     
Mrjinglesusa
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Why do you care?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 10, 2015, 07:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
My list for "reliable" news sites is seriously short, and does not include any of the major outlets.
I'm curious, what are these "reliable" news sites you frequent. I'm genuinely interested. TIA.
2.3GHz i7 15" Retina Macbook Pro (Late 2013)
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 10, 2015, 09:00 PM
 
Suspended for six months without pay.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 10, 2015, 09:35 PM
 
Any word on who will be filling in?

OAW
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 10, 2015, 09:40 PM
 
Naturally, Lester Holt his rappin' homie

     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 11, 2015, 02:33 AM
 
Oops...

Premature post.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 11, 2015, 05:38 AM
 
Okay... I've cut through most of the bullshit.

Williams has a compound problem. There's the slippage he's had with regards to his own relevance in the story, and he got the story wrong at the time.

In the original story on the flight, he was unable to accurately report how many helicopters were in his convoy. He states four. All the pilots disagree with this claim.

Where it's most likely Williams came up with this inaccurate number is from the helicopters on the ground waiting out the sandstorm. There were four. Two were his convoy, two were from a different convoy.

The other convoy was attacked.

What's probable is he imagined those helicopters were part of his convoy. Of course, as a reporter, you want to avoid imagining things and then reporting them as facts.


Separate from whatever moral blame one wants to assess for the aforementioned slippage, from the outset, Williams' original piece was horrible journalism.

I'm inclined to cut Williams slack for over the years moving himself from right beside a harrowing experience to experiencing it directly. I'm inclined to take up that slack for his inability to to realize he wasn't beside it to begin with.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 11, 2015, 09:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Suspended for six months without pay.
Meh
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 11, 2015, 10:01 AM
 
It was more than the "helicopter" story. His Katrina reports are also being questioned. Seeing floating bodies in the French Quarter and getting dysentery from "accidentally drinking flood water" to name a couple.
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 11, 2015, 10:05 AM
 
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 11, 2015, 10:28 AM
 
The "Gumping" of Williams.




     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 11, 2015, 10:29 AM
 


That one is nice and seamless.
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 11, 2015, 08:50 PM
 
The next NBC Nightly News anchor.
     
BadKosh
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 12, 2015, 08:50 AM
 
When will MSNBC fire Al Sharpton? Who's the bigger LIAR, Al or Brian? We'll see if NBC really cares about its credibility.
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 12, 2015, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
When will MSNBC fire Al Sharpton? Who's the bigger LIAR, Al or Brian? We'll see if NBC really cares about its credibility.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 12, 2015, 03:03 PM
 
Sharpton's a pundit. They aren't held to the same standard.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 12, 2015, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Sharpton's a pundit. They aren't held to the same standard.
See: Fox News
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 12, 2015, 03:20 PM
 
Now I have a more solid handle on the actual events, I can say Williams' big flub boils down to not eating enough shit in his apology.

There's a very simple rule at play. If you get caught doing something wrong, make the next thing you do the right thing. He didn't really follow the rule.
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 12, 2015, 06:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
I'm curious, what are these "reliable" news sites you frequent. I'm genuinely interested. TIA.
ArsTechnica, really is just about it. The others I frequent are often flawed. I read a lot of science articles as well on cosmology and astronomy and a bunch of related fields or various sites. I could point you towards those if you're at all interested.

Cracked used to be good for every day headlines and a comedic take on them, but in the last 2 years it has gone so far downhill that its corporate and political influences pour out of every article.

I read fox and cnn as well. I usually like to read articles about the same subject on both for different takes, and it's really damning IMO the disparity in headlines between the two.

My other sites I frequent are the NN forums, wikipedia (my favorite), DF, espn, deadspin, baltimoreravens.com and various corners of the internet that an interesting article or piece might put me through. In other words, I'm all over the place.
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 12, 2015, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Now I have a more solid handle on the actual events, I can say Williams' big flub boils down to not eating enough shit in his apology.

There's a very simple rule at play. If you get caught doing something wrong, make the next thing you do the right thing. He didn't really follow the rule.
Unfortunately this day and age, where pretty much the entire internet has a voice via twitter, blogs and Facebook I don't think there is anything you can do once the internet is abuzz with your flub. All you can do is stay out of the limelight awhile and hope the rage machine has moved on. I don't think Williams could have recovered at all, and I think the "6 month suspension" was NBC's way of firing him without making a statement. 10 bucks says he doesn't get his job back.
     
BadKosh
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 10:29 AM
 
Do you happen to work at Goddard?
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Unfortunately this day and age, where pretty much the entire internet has a voice via twitter, blogs and Facebook I don't think there is anything you can do once the internet is abuzz with your flub. All you can do is stay out of the limelight awhile and hope the rage machine has moved on. I don't think Williams could have recovered at all, and I think the "6 month suspension" was NBC's way of firing him without making a statement. 10 bucks says he doesn't get his job back.
I'm not so sure. People do surprisingly well when they display genuine contrition.

I honestly think one of the issues here is he still believes the helicopter flying next to him was shot, and that's what he considers the magnitude of his transgression. Almost being hit.

The reality was he was 20 minutes away from it.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 11:38 AM
 
I feel like what you need to know about Williams is revealed in that he apparently applied for Leno's job when he stepped down the second time. I just don't see any journalist worth a damn wanting to transition to that.

I think it reveals a guy who's priorities don't match the job credentials.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 11:51 AM
 
I think the reality is the job he has (had) and host of the Tonight Show suit a handsome talking head perfectly.

The problem arises when said person crows about being a badass field reporter.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 11:53 AM
 
How does he look Dick Engel in the eye after this?
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 12:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think the reality is the job he has (had) and host of the Tonight Show suit a handsome talking head perfectly.
You don't have to be a journalist to report the news, but (and I was a kid, so maybe I was naive) I don't recall Brokaw, Rather, and Jennings being empty heads.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
The problem arises when said person crows about being a badass field reporter.
It's indicative of his flaw – he enjoyed celebrity. Reveled in it, perhaps.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 12:25 PM
 
We can't have it both ways.

Brokaw, et. al. were the last of the generation which news organizations existed because the FCC gave their parent companies a license to print money. News was a loss leader.

It isn't anymore. News orginizations need to show a profit now. Profit doesn't come from "hard-hitting", it comes from fluff.

One can lament the death of the "old days". I don't. NBC has close to zero weight with me now. I'm talking before the Williams kerfuffle.

The "new days" are you and I don't even have cable. Try and bust through that problem with your business model, NBC.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 12:31 PM
 
The "old days" would have been to rely on some other big network to tell us what was going on with Williams... and wouldn't you know it, they made shit up then, too.

The "new days" let me have Williams 12-year-old story at my fingertips, along with what Stars & Stripes reported, and present-day interviews with a half-dozen people who were there.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 12:33 PM
 
I'm oversimplifying but what I'm getting is, I can't have journalistic integrity because money.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 12:38 PM
 
What I'm saying is money is the enemy of journalistic integrity.

TV was (and is) the highest cost per story.

Do the math, and adjust expectations accordingly.
     
BadKosh
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 12:52 PM
 
Its more the TYPE OF PEOPLE who get hired into the news biz. Investigative skills are not required anymore it seems. Having the same political leanings as your bosses seems to be the main requirement. Todays news readers don't seem to have personal integrity. I think this is why the MSM has lost so much of its viewership. You don't hang around those who lie to you either.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2015, 12:58 PM
 
You don't need the same political leanings as you boss, you only need be willing to fake it.

I'll let y'all in on a big secret... the people who work at FOX News? They're New Yorkers. The most conservative person there is a pinko by any other standards.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Feb 14, 2015, 02:59 PM
 
@BadKosh

I really think you're only being half fair here.

You're absolutely right someone like Williams isn't hired for his journalistic integrity, but he's not hired for his politics either. He's hired for being personable, handsome, and someone people tend to "like"... while on television. These people don't grow on trees.

OTOH, I mentioned Dick Engel (also at NBC) earlier. I challenge you to impugn this guy's credentials. He consistently puts his life on the line, and has no problem brutally slamming this administration. I've seen Rachel Maddow want to hide under her desk after she let him on.
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 14, 2015, 06:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Perhaps its a bigger issue of clouding what ARE facts and details with BS and lies so at some point 'nobody' knows the truth. While not a "news source" I was watching The History Channel and their story on the SR-71/A-12/D21 spy planes and they reported the D21 drone was using the same engines as the SR71. This is complete BS, as they used a pure ramjet.

"Kelly Johnson wanted to power the D-21 with a ramjet engine built by Marquardt for the Boeing CIM-10 Bomarc long-range surface-to-air missile. Marquardt and Lockheed had already collaborated on several programs and had a close working relationship. The engine, the RJ43-MA-11, required modification, since it was only designed to burn as long as the missile needed to hit a target. In contrast, the D-21's engine needed to operate at high temperatures for at least an hour and a half at high altitudes. The modified engine was designated as the RJ43-MA20S-4" . I don't think history is made this way, but created by the ignorant, or information was requested t be obscured by the Gov't.
Getting your history from the History Channel is just about the same as getting your news from USA Today... You need to check facts no matter what. the J58 engine used by the SR is a singular animal, and is often referred to (in non-technical writing) as a "partial ramjet" or "turboramjet" because of the unique way the primary compressor's bleed air is channeled to the afterburner, not just to cool it, but also to assist (sort of ramjet-style) in afterburner thrust. It's not accurate to call it "like a ramjet", but it uses some ramjet concepts. Confusing a highly complex turbojet engine with an even more arcane type of engine is easy to do when you dumb down what you're writing about. Checking Wikpedia on this subject gives you a well written explanation of the whole thing. But then, people who want more information on it wouldn't be satisfied with any dumbed-down info on it anyway.

While I agree that Brian Williams should have cross checked his memory and impressions with others who did not have the same pressures he did at that moment, it is easy to get details confused when you're in a highly stressed situation. Make it near combat, make it a situation where flight is dangerous because of really scary weather, and then up the stress a little more with the kind of chaos and nobody will remember perfectly.

Williams shouldn't have published without cross checking, but his editors and producers should also have thought "hey, this is way too great not to go with, but let's double check some details, just to make sure we don't wind up with egg on our faces." Remember Courage Under Fire? The plot hinged on that, in these situations, memory and impressions are LIKELY to be slanted and/or incorrect. It's how the brain works, and the movie made a good attempt to demonstrate this.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Apr 24, 2015, 12:44 PM
 
Brian who?
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 24, 2015, 12:52 PM
 
There was something a few weeks ago about NBC lying about who kidnapped crew in Syria or something like that. Blamed it on the government when it was one of the revolutionary groups. Anyway, all I could think is if they are ok with that, no wonder they didn't bat an eyelash at Brian Williams.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:50 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,