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Bye bye heff
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Doc HM
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Sep 28, 2017, 12:51 PM
 
Worlds most loved pornographer passes away.

Thiss
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...layboy-mansion
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reader50
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Sep 28, 2017, 03:06 PM
 
Heff's obit. The above link is an opinion piece.

He did better than average, at 4 score and 11. Someone upstairs must have approved.
     
sek929
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Sep 28, 2017, 03:11 PM
 
18 holes a day and still found time for golf.
     
Snow-i
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Sep 28, 2017, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
18 holes a day and still found time for golf.


I hear he had a real good stroke on the back 9.
     
Doc HM  (op)
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Sep 28, 2017, 03:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Heff's obit. The above link is an opinion piece.
Yes it is. He wasn't a great man, he was an abuser of women. (this is of course also an opinion).
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 28, 2017, 05:37 PM
 
"Abuser of women"? Got any substance to back that up, or are you saying that lavishing women with money and gifts in exchange for sex is "abuse"? Sometimes sex is just sex, a basic physical activity. If I pay someone $100 to be my caddy for a few hours, is that also "abuse"? To me this sounds like you don't have much faith in a woman's agency.
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BLAZE_MkIV
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Sep 28, 2017, 06:16 PM
 
I can't see anyone going to that mansion and not expecting to be hit on etc. He set the tone of the place well. I haven't heard of any rape stories in the news.
     
And.reg
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Sep 28, 2017, 06:18 PM
 
Guess he didn't live forever after all.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 28, 2017, 07:13 PM
 
This thread is starting to look like another reason to start that one about consent.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 28, 2017, 10:39 PM
 
For a bunny to stay at the mansion I imagine they had to sign elaborate contracts giving consent.
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Waragainstsleep
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Sep 28, 2017, 11:01 PM
 
You have a problem with that?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 29, 2017, 08:05 AM
 
Nope. I'm just saying they probably tried to make it as obvious as they could that this was a sex gig. If you don't like lots of sex with various partners you're in the wrong place.
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BLAZE_MkIV
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Sep 29, 2017, 08:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
For a bunny to stay at the mansion I imagine they had to sign elaborate contracts giving consent.
There's no way a contract like that would be enforceable. Its much more probable they just invited all the right kind of people.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 29, 2017, 08:07 AM
 
It's SoCal, anything is possible.
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Laminar
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Sep 29, 2017, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
I can't see anyone going to that mansion and not expecting to be hit on etc. He set the tone of the place well. I haven't heard of any rape stories in the news.
Weirdly enough a facebook friend managed to do that.
     
Laminar
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Sep 29, 2017, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
"Abuser of women"? Got any substance to back that up, or are you saying that lavishing women with money and gifts in exchange for sex is "abuse"? Sometimes sex is just sex, a basic physical activity. If I pay someone $100 to be my caddy for a few hours, is that also "abuse"? To me this sounds like you don't have much faith in a woman's agency.
What about the connections between pornography and human trafficking? How does one insure their porn is 100% organic, free-range, grass-fed pure?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 29, 2017, 07:58 PM
 
I'm not aware of any connections between Heffner and human trafficking. Playboy is porn? Are you for real?
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reader50
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Sep 30, 2017, 12:05 AM
 
Playboy is all posers. Nothing happening there, though one person gets a free car each year.

I'm not sure what goes on in the mansion though.
     
Chongo
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Oct 1, 2017, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I'm not aware of any connections between Heffner and human trafficking. Playboy is porn? Are you for real?
Are “spread eagle crotch shots” and penetration required for a magazine to considered porn?

If Heff is considered a “trailblazer,” where does the trail lead?
     
sek929
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Oct 1, 2017, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
If Heff is considered a “trailblazer,” where does the trail lead?
Hopefully to a world where nude women aren’t seen as offensive, to a world where bible-thumping puritanical bullshit slowly fades away.
     
Chongo
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Oct 1, 2017, 05:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Hopefully to a world where nude women aren’t seen as offensive, to a world where bible-thumping puritanical bullshit slowly fades away.
Quite the opposite.
Are his “offspring” like Hustler and the mainstreaming of video part of that world? Would you allow your 12 year old to stay up and watch Cinemax late night or give him a copy of Hustler?

What happened to the anti porn feminists? Did they die with Andrea Dworkin?
     
sek929
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Oct 1, 2017, 05:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Would you allow your 12 year old to stay up and watch Cinemax late night or give him a copy of Hustler?
No, but i'd allow him to view an image of a beautiful naked woman, maybe even masturbate to it, and not tell him he's going to hell for it.

Playboy does not equal Hustler or hardcore porn, but I don't expect a bible thumper to understand the difference.
     
Chongo
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Oct 1, 2017, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
No, but i'd allow him to view an image of a beautiful naked woman, maybe even masturbate to it, and not tell him he's going to hell for it.

Playboy does not equal Hustler or hardcore porn, but I don't expect a bible thumper to understand the difference.
Nor is Playboy Botticelli or Michelangelo.

Would you describe Andrea Dworkin as a “bible thumper?” Gloria Steinem went undercover to “expose” the world of Playboy. Is she a “bible thumper?”
     
ghporter
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Oct 1, 2017, 06:54 PM
 
I would hardly call "Hustler" anything like Hef's offspring. Playboy (until they changed formats and supposedly eliminated nudity) featured exceptionally well done photography, artistically done, and generally in a "glamor" vein.

Hustler was Larry Flynt doing everything he could to get as close to women's privates as possible while making money at it. His photography (yes, he was the principle photographer for quite some time) was crap - soft focus to hide his inability to compose, a heavy concentration on gynecological features, and about 180 degrees away from "glamor."

The Hustler philosophy was indeed about using, abusing, and objectifying women. The Playboy Philosophy was about maximizing personal freedoms and strongly fighting prejudice.

Hef was a staunch supporter of the First Amendment, of women's rights, and of human rights in general. When Playboy published the science fiction short story "The Crooked Man" by Charles Beaumont, he received flack about the subject: persecution of heterosexuals in a society where homosexuality was the norm. He replied in print that if persecution by society of heterosexuals (in the story) was wrong, then the opposite was also wrong.

Suggesting that the glamor-oriented nude photography of Playboy is related to what could be defined today as pornography, let alone the victimization of women in general, is a mistake. There is a line beyond which nude photography CAN be connected to that sort of victimization. That line is in the shadows, with secrecy and under-the-table payment of models and photographers; with "models" recruited from the downtroden, the addicted, and from runaways; with shadowy consumers pushing for harsher, more demeaning and more abusive images.

Playboy was anything but shadowy, and was a stunning example - whether you liked the photography and text or not - of forcing society to face its multifaceted restrictive standards, and then pointing out the hypocricy and arrogance of such things as classifying female nudity as "dirty."

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
sek929
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Oct 1, 2017, 07:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Nor is Playboy Botticelli or Michelangelo.

Would you describe Andrea Dworkin as a “bible thumper?” Gloria Steinem went undercover to “expose” the world of Playboy. Is she a “bible thumper?”
No idea what you're talking about but stop changing the subject.

Do you think a photograph of a naked woman is inherently pornographic?

Depending on the subject I'd say naked women are works of art, sculpted by your god, that rival any of the classics.
     
Chongo
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Oct 1, 2017, 08:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
No idea what you're talking about but stop changing the subject.

Do you think a photograph of a naked woman is inherently pornographic?

Depending on the subject I'd say naked women are works of art, sculpted by your god, that rival any of the classics.
You brought up bible thumpers.
     
sek929
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Oct 1, 2017, 08:58 PM
 
You compared Playboy to Hustler
     
Chongo
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Oct 1, 2017, 09:51 PM
 
Do you get Hustler without Playboy blazing the trail?
     
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Oct 1, 2017, 11:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Are “spread eagle crotch shots” and penetration required for a magazine to considered porn?
Yeah, that's where I draw the line. Mere nudes, aka. "tasteful" nudes, are much more like art.

If Heff is considered a “trailblazer,” where does the trail lead?
Greater comfort with human sexuality. Mere nudes do not lead to 4-way bukaki-fests, there's a lot more involved to reach the latter (usually a history of sexual abuse).
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Oct 1, 2017, 11:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Nor is Playboy Botticelli or Michelangelo.
Playboy is closer to them than it is to Hustler. (Speaking as a person who had a subscription to Playboy for > a quarter century.)
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Oct 2, 2017, 12:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Do you get Hustler without Playboy blazing the trail?
Yes. There were some really racy underground mags and film before Playboy (stuff that's as explicit as anything found online). I collect old, old erotic photos (even have many daguerreotype and tintype examples) and there's a striking difference between artful nudes and porn, even back to the mid-to-late 1800s.
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Oct 2, 2017, 12:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Playboy was anything but shadowy, and was a stunning...
Array?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 2, 2017, 12:05 AM
 
I think if Heff gives up the playboy lifestyle at a respectable age, he goes down as a trailblazer for sure. As it is a 91 year old with seven wives in their twenties is kinda sad and creepy.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Laminar
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Oct 2, 2017, 10:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I'm not aware of any connections between Heffner and human trafficking. Playboy is porn? Are you for real?
I suppose I can see how my post would have been confusing. I wasn't talking about Playboy, I was talking about pornography in general.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 3, 2017, 06:29 AM
 
Alternate perspective:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/o...gh-hefner.html

I can see both sides.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 07:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I suppose I can see how my post would have been confusing. I wasn't talking about Playboy, I was talking about pornography in general.
Why bring up porn in a eulogy thread about Hugh Heffner? The guy sold highly-airbrushed, artistically-stylized pictures of nude women, not porn. Maybe we could start a thread about the potential perils of porn and its connection with human trafficking? It could be interesting.
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Oct 3, 2017, 07:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Alternate perspective:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/o...gh-hefner.html

I can see both sides.
He lost me with all the embellishment in the first paragraph, then I looked into it and the author is an intersectional, sex-negative feminist. Geez, those people are a plague upon journalism right now.
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Laminar
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Oct 3, 2017, 09:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Why bring up porn in a eulogy thread about Hugh Heffner? The guy sold highly-airbrushed, artistically-stylized pictures of nude women, not porn.
To me, it followed from this:

If I pay someone $100 to be my caddy for a few hours, is that also "abuse"? To me this sounds like you don't have much faith in a woman's agency.
I think it gets muddy.

Maybe we could start a thread about the potential perils of porn and its connection with human trafficking? It could be interesting.
I agree.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 10:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I think it gets muddy.
That would be more like prostitution, though, not really porn. I personally have more problems with the latter than the former.
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