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How should Trump's tweets be reported?
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Doc HM
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Jan 26, 2018, 03:40 PM
 
So psychologically, what is going on here? Having happily retweeted far right videos Trump now admits hd had no idea who the organisation was.
Which is by-the-by, what's odd is the idea that he's prepared to apologise if anyone wants him to, but to not actually apologise until asked?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42829555
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subego
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Jan 26, 2018, 03:58 PM
 
I’m honestly mystified anyone thinks Trump knows or cares where his retweets come from.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 26, 2018, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m honestly mystified anyone thinks Trump knows or cares where his retweets come from.
It's almost like they're holding him to the standard of a US president rather than a reality tv host.
     
subego
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Jan 27, 2018, 12:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's almost like they're holding him to the standard of a US president rather than a reality tv host.
I feel like holding Trump to that standard would entail focusing on how irresponsible it is for him not to care, seeing as how people are apt to consider a retweet by him as an implicit endorsement of the person making the original tweet.

Instead I see him being criticized for implicitly endorsing the people he retweets.


Edit: which I must admit comes off as kinda unhinged to people not sympathetic to the rage felt by the left at the moment because as I said, it’s patently obvious he doesn’t give enough of a shit to even know where they come from.
( Last edited by subego; Jan 27, 2018 at 02:18 PM. )
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 27, 2018, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I feel like holding Trump to that standard would entail focusing on how irresponsible it is for him not to care, seeing as how people are apt to consider a retweet by him as an implicit endorsement of the person making the original tweet.
Oh give me a break. People call his tweets irresponsible all the time.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Instead I see him being criticized for implicitly endorsing the people he retweets.
People criticize him on multiple fronts. I imagine some of it is hoping that if he doesn't respond to one angle, he'll respond to another. Since this got a rare apology, that's something, I guess.


Originally Posted by subego View Post
Edit: which I must admit comes off as kinda unhinged to people not sympathetic to the rage felt by the left at the moment because as I said, it’s patently obvious he doesn’t give enough of a shit to even know where they come from.
You're asking people to accept his tweets as 'the new normal'. That's exactly the problem with it – becoming dulled to crazy behavior. To stop pointing out how ****ing crazy this shit is is to tacitly signal it is ok.
     
subego
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Jan 28, 2018, 12:22 AM
 
I will restate my position.

If he knew where the tweet came from, I wish to believe he knew where the tweet came from.

If he did not know where the tweet came from, I wish to believe he did not know where the tweet came from.

If this is asking people to accept his tweets as the new normal, then I don’t really have a choice, because the alternative is telling objective truth it can **** off.
     
subego
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Jan 28, 2018, 01:01 AM
 
I just realized that for years my visualization of the political spectrum has had the sides flipped. Though I’ll admit I’m one of those people who still has to think about which hand is my left and which is my right.

When I’m a camera op, whomever’s directing me quickly gets used to saying “pan right... no, other right”
     
Doc HM  (op)
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Jan 28, 2018, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Since this got a rare apology, that's something, I guess.
That was kind of my point. It DIDN'T get an apology. It got a weird "If you want an apology I can do one. But only if you ask for one"

Which is weird even for evasive politician apology stylings
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Waragainstsleep
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Jan 28, 2018, 07:31 PM
 
Trump is a petty man. "I'm prepared to apologise" doesn't mean the same thing as "I apologise" but it sounds close enough to satisfy his moron base and a few other idiots and allows the media to misquote it as an actual apology. This crucial technicality means everything to the likes of Trump.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Doc HM  (op)
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Jan 29, 2018, 08:01 AM
 
Back in the day (when my father was young), people who worked in banks were required to gain the permission of the bank in order to marry (how quaint).
Obviously my dad was having none of this. He still has his copy of the letter he sent to his manager pointing out that he is aware that he is required to ask permission to marry my mum.

The bank let it slide.
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The Final Dakar
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Jan 29, 2018, 08:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If he knew where the tweet came from, I wish to believe he knew where the tweet came from.

If he did not know where the tweet came from, I wish to believe he did not know where the tweet came from.
Sorry, I really don't follow.


If this is asking people to accept his tweets as the new normal, then I don’t really have a choice, because the alternative is telling objective truth it can **** off.
I have no idea how this connects to
I’m honestly mystified anyone thinks Trump knows or cares where his retweets come from.
     
subego
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Jan 30, 2018, 12:54 PM
 
My argument is “Trump does not know or care where his tweets come from”. I stand fully behind this statement, and will continue to do so until presented evidence to the contrary.

Somehow, this argument got mangled, and was spit back out at me a plea for accepting his his tweets as the new normal. I have no idea how that happened, or where that came from. It’s not my argument, and I am making it explicit it’s not my argument.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 30, 2018, 12:59 PM
 
But, SHOULD he care where his tweets come from?
     
subego
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Jan 30, 2018, 01:25 PM
 
Of course.
     
subego
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Jan 30, 2018, 03:02 PM
 
I’m trying to draw a distinction between “he has no idea what he’s doing”, and “he knows exactly what he’s doing”.

They both deserve punishment, but the punishments are different.

He is guilty of the former and being punished as if it’s the latter.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 30, 2018, 03:13 PM
 
You seem to be giving him a ton of benefit of the doubt. We have no way of knowing if he is just a colossal ignoramus or if it's a stage act.

He's not your clueless uncle retweeting racist gifs as a lark. He's the ****ing president of the united states.
     
Snow-i
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Jan 30, 2018, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
You seem to be giving him a ton of benefit of the doubt. We have no way of knowing if he is just a colossal ignoramus or if it's a stage act.

He's not your clueless uncle retweeting racist gifs as a lark. He's the ****ing president of the united states.
I don't think there's any benefit of the doubt being given - just subego pointing out there is doubt, which "the punishments" do not reflect.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 30, 2018, 03:27 PM
 
If we're being told he's the equivalent of your senile old uncle, who doesn't know any better, and ya know those blood pressure drugs he's on really wreak havoc with his mindset... and so we should forgive him for that...

really?

The benefit is people here assuming his ignorance is not also malicious. I'm not convinced. If he's just clueless, then he's unqualified. If he's malicious, he's dangerously unqualified.
     
Snow-i
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Jan 30, 2018, 03:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If we're being told he's the equivalent of your senile old uncle, who doesn't know any better, and ya know those blood pressure drugs he's on really wreak havoc with his mindset... and so we should forgive him for that...
My senile old uncle doesn't even know how use twitter. Why must Trump be the equivalent of some stereotype in your mind? Can we not evaluate him by himself? Also, my senile old uncle was not elected president so even if my senile old uncle tweeted all the time, there's no way to know how he would act in that context.

really?
How did you jump to "forgive him"? If we can't even evaluate him properly, how could we possibly know how to treat him?

The benefit is people here assuming his ignorance is not also malicious. I'm not convinced. If he's just clueless, then he's unqualified. If he's malicious, he's dangerously unqualified.
Can ignorance even be malicious?

Malice requires intent. Intent requires understanding - i.e. the opposite of ignorance.

Perhaps he just does not care what you think about him, considering no matter what he does you'll draw the same conclusion?

How do you feel about the amnesty deal he offered democrats on the dreamers? Was it malicious in your mind?
     
subego
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Jan 30, 2018, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
You seem to be giving him a ton of benefit of the doubt. We have no way of knowing if he is just a colossal ignoramus or if it's a stage act.
There are times I give him the benefit of the doubt. This is not one of those times.

He’s like a cat pouncing on the moving red dot, and is just as interested as the cat about where the dot comes from.

His sin is one of omission, not commission. He is guilty of omitting giving a shit, and should be punished accordingly.
     
Snow-i
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Jan 30, 2018, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
He is guilty of omitting giving a shit, and should be punished accordingly.
This.
     
Laminar
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Jan 30, 2018, 05:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Perhaps he just does not care what you think about him, considering no matter what he does you'll draw the same conclusion?
It sounds like you're making an accusation of partisanship, is that accurate? Because Trump is on the "other team," you don't expect that the cadre of liberals here will judge his actions fairly?

To what extent do you believe you're immune to a similar condition?
     
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Jan 30, 2018, 05:31 PM
 
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 30, 2018, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
He’s like a cat pouncing on the moving red dot, and is just as interested as the cat about where the dot comes from.
See, my cat is smart enough to know where the red dot comes from, and is bored by the red dot. My cat for president!
     
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Jan 30, 2018, 07:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
It sounds like you're making an accusation of partisanship, is that accurate? Because Trump is on the "other team," you don't expect that the cadre of liberals here will judge his actions fairly?

To what extent do you believe you're immune to a similar condition?
I'm not, which is I am saying we ought to take a different approach altogether. One that isn't so subject to such biases or based on our flawed feelings.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jan 30, 2018, 07:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Perhaps he just does not care what you think about him?
It has been said that Star Trek 5: The Final Frontier is the standard by which all badness is measured. The above statement is now the new standard by which all wrongness should be measured.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Snow-i
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Jan 30, 2018, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
It has been said that Star Trek 5: The Final Frontier is the standard by which all badness is measured. The above statement is now the new standard by which all wrongness should be measured.
Wow you're actually adopting a standard on self consistency in your arguments for once? Good on you. Can't wait to see it.
     
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Jan 30, 2018, 08:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Can ignorance even be malicious?

Malice requires intent. Intent requires understanding - i.e. the opposite of ignorance.
Of course, ignorance can be malicious, and you can't hide behind ignorance under the veil of intent. If your duties require you to learn and know better, you have nowhere to hide. If you don't, then it's on you. If you choose to ignore inconvenient truths despite an abundance of evidence, it is on you. If you do not reverse your course of action after seeing the consequences, it is on you.
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subego
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Jan 30, 2018, 10:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
My cat for president!



Why has she forsaken us?!?
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 30, 2018, 11:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My argument is “Trump does not know or care where his tweets come from”. I stand fully behind this statement, and will continue to do so until presented evidence to the contrary.
That's less an argument and more of a judgement.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Somehow, this argument got mangled, and was spit back out at me a plea for accepting his his tweets as the new normal. I have no idea how that happened, or where that came from. It’s not my argument, and I am making it explicit it’s not my argument.
I'll mea culpa that and say my overall impression of your attitude bled into this specific reaction.

The thrust of the convo was you proclaimed confusion as to why Trump gets shit and I explained why.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m honestly mystified anyone thinks Trump knows or cares where his retweets come from.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's almost like they're holding him to the standard of a US president rather than a reality tv host.
---

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Of course, ignorance can be malicious, and you can't hide behind ignorance under the veil of intent. If your duties require you to learn and know better, you have nowhere to hide. If you don't, then it's on you. If you choose to ignore inconvenient truths despite an abundance of evidence, it is on you. If you do not reverse your course of action after seeing the consequences, it is on you.
To put it more succinctly, Trump's ignorance is from a self-perpetuated bubble. It's willful. Aside from being a bad habit, it's also bad for the job and a bad example for Americans.
     
subego
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Jan 30, 2018, 11:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The thrust of the convo was you proclaimed confusion as to why Trump gets shit...
People give him shit as if he knows where his tweets come from.

This is what confuses me because it’s clear to me he doesn’t.

I do not object to giving him shit for not knowing where his tweets come from.
     
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Jan 30, 2018, 11:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
People give him shit as if he knows where his tweets come from.

This is what confuses me because it’s clear to me he doesn’t.
Ignorance is not a defense, especially if it happens habitually. If you make an honest mistake, apologize, delete the Tweet or put up a correction. But don't stand by that mistake. Or get into a tiff with foreign Prime Ministers. It is fair to give Trump shit because he should know better by now.
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subego
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Jan 30, 2018, 11:43 PM
 
I do not object to giving him shit for not knowing where his tweets come from.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 30, 2018, 11:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m honestly mystified anyone thinks Trump knows or cares where his retweets come from.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
People give him shit as if he knows where his tweets come from.

This is what confuses me because it’s clear to me he doesn’t.

I do not object to giving him shit for not knowing where his tweets come from.
If you wonder why I give you shit so often, this is why:

You're complaining that people's complaints about Trump's twitter habits aren't precise enough. And that's giving you the benefit of the doubt, seeing as the overarching theme is that he tweets abhorrent stuff, not that he knowingly tweets abhorrent stuff from bad sources.

When he retweets white nationlists, the problem is content of the tweets; the fact that he doesn't notice/are who he's retweeting is icing on the cake
     
subego
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Jan 31, 2018, 12:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
When he retweets white nationlists, the problem is content of the tweets; the fact that he doesn't notice/are who he's retweeting is icing on the cake
If this was my perception, I wouldn’t be making the statement.

I see the exact opposite. The content plays second fiddle to the source.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 31, 2018, 11:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If this was my perception, I wouldn’t be making the statement.

I see the exact opposite. The content plays second fiddle to the source.
Well, I could certainly see this: The source used as proof the content is as bad as it is. Because the standard line is always that x person isn't being 'racist' (because racism doesn't exist), so noting the sources are undeniably racist has a reason.

Anyway, can I get some examples about these misguided complaints you're talking about? I don't know if we're talking about journalists, political commentators, or random twitter users.
     
subego
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Feb 1, 2018, 12:55 AM
 
In general, if how bad the content is cannot be proven without reference to the source, the content isn’t as bad as it’s being made out to be.

Regardless, here’s the best example I could find.

Trump retweets right-wing provocateur known for pushing false conspiracy theories | Washington Post

Trump retweets alt-right media figure who pushed ‘PizzaGate’ and Seth Rich conspiracy theories | Los Angeles Times

Both about the same retweet. The content of the tweet is an afterthought compared to the source.
     
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Feb 1, 2018, 12:54 PM
 
One might be forgiven for not knowing JoeBob Smith is a racist. But how do you find JoeBob's tweets? Is Joebob tweeting at AllWhiteChristianSoldiers? How do you know? Are you following AllWhiteChristianSoldiers too? What are you doing there?
     
subego
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Feb 1, 2018, 01:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
One might be forgiven for not knowing JoeBob Smith is a racist. But how do you find JoeBob's tweets? Is Joebob tweeting at AllWhiteChristianSoldiers? How do you know? Are you following AllWhiteChristianSoldiers too? What are you doing there?
Full disclosure... I’m not Mr. Twitter.

From what I do understand, if you are Mr. Twitter to the extent Trump is, you don’t need to find shit, shit finds you.

Likewise, isn’t the whole point of Twitter to limit the amount of information one contains in their communications?
( Last edited by subego; Feb 1, 2018 at 03:31 PM. )
     
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Feb 1, 2018, 02:36 PM
 
You are again making excuses for his ignorance. If he was a normal president, he'd have people to vet things for him.
     
subego
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Feb 1, 2018, 03:14 PM
 
Excusing his ignorance would be saying it’s okay, which I’m not.

As much as I’d like to criticize his poor vetting process, I run into the problem where it doesn’t exist.

I can criticize him for not having one, and I do, but this is a different criticism.
     
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Feb 1, 2018, 04:04 PM
 
splitting hairs. Unless he is a child or mentally incompetent, he is responsible for what he does. Saying that he is not responsible because he lacks/ignores handlers is circular. He is to blame for not listening to handlers, or reading his own retweet authors, equally.
     
subego
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Feb 1, 2018, 04:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
He is to blame for not listening to handlers, or reading his own retweet authors, equally.
I agree with this 100%.

Where do the articles I linked blame him for these things? Where does any article about his irresponsible tweets blame him for these things?
     
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Feb 1, 2018, 09:37 PM
 
Starting a new thread since the gen news discussion got long and interesting. Feel free to move posts into here, mods.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 1, 2018, 09:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Regardless, here’s the best example I could find.

Trump retweets right-wing provocateur known for pushing false conspiracy theories | Washington Post

Trump retweets alt-right media figure who pushed ‘PizzaGate’ and Seth Rich conspiracy theories | Los Angeles Times

Both about the same retweet. The content of the tweet is an afterthought compared to the source.
I love these examples because the story titles give the relevant context.

I apologize if I've lost the thread of the conversation, but I'm not sure I see the problem with the stories.

I see the wapo story as spotlight on who Trump retweeted, giving in depth info on how terrible a person they are and their views are. The only part that really references Trump is this:
Trump’s decision to spotlight Posobiec drew criticism, particularly in light of the weekend violence in Charlottesville. Trump provoked public outrage when he took two days after the white nationalist rally and the death of Heather Heyer to specifically condemn the Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazis by name.
I don't see anything inaccurate about it.


The second story didn't really render right. It seems to be a link to all his tweets.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 1, 2018, 10:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In general, if how bad the content is cannot be proven without reference to the source, the content isn’t as bad as it’s being made out to be.
Ok, I don't understand this. The point is to give context. Or to show the president gets his facts from terrible or biased sources.
     
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Feb 2, 2018, 02:13 AM
 
Here’s the chain...

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
When he retweets white nationlists, the problem is content of the tweets
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I see the wapo story as spotlight on who Trump retweeted
As in, not a story about the content of the tweet.


Here’s the LA Times text:

Amid criticism for his response to violence that ensued between white supremacists and counter-protesters in Charlottesville, Va., on Saturday, President Trump retweeted Jack Posobiec – an alt-right media figure who pushed the PizzaGate and Seth Rich conspiracy theories.

After blaming "many sides" for the initial violence that left one counter-protester dead, Trump on Monday condemned the KKK, neo-Nazis and white supremacists as "criminals and thugs."

For many, the response was too little, too late. Three CEOs stepped down from the White House manufacturing council, and criticism of the president continued.

Posobiec is well-known in alt-right circles. He was a vocal believer that top Democrats were involved in a child sex trafficking ring at a Washington, D.C., pizza parlor, and that the Democratic National Committee was behind the death of former staffer Seth Rich.
His tweet had nothing to do with Charlottesville, instead linking to a story about Chicago homicides. It's unclear why Trump chose now to retweet Posobiec to his 35.9 million followers.
     
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Feb 2, 2018, 02:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Ok, I don't understand this. The point is to give context. Or to show the president gets his facts from terrible or biased sources.
This terrible source got his biased facts from ABC Chicago.
     
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Feb 2, 2018, 12:20 PM
 
How many shootings in Chicago is fact, if confirmed to be accurate. The spin put on it however, is misleading.
     
subego
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
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Feb 2, 2018, 02:12 PM
 
Is the best way to address the misleading spin to have an article about how the content is misleading, or an 800 word hit on how the author is a shithead?
     
 
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