[besson3c]

I'm not.

If 10.5.2 adds support for backup to any NAS device or other network disk, I personally don't see the point in buying Time Capsule and paying the Apple premium there - particularly if you already have a wireless network and you don't mind connecting your NAS to an ethernet port on your router/switch.

Everybody seems to be going goo goo over Time Capsule, but it is an overpriced device (just as pretty much everything Apple sells is). I'm going to wait and see. If Apple does something pretty shady and only permits Time Machine network backup to Time Capsule, I may recommend it to some, but until then I think people on a budget are going to be kicking themselves when they realize they can get a 500 gb NAS for $180 rather than $300, if 10.5.2 really does work in this regard.

[besson3c]

Mind you, you can backup to a NAS via Time Machine today, it's just rather buggy.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Where's the Apple Premium?

[Chuckit]

If it fits somebody's needs, sure. Somebody who already has an NAS, no.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Where's the Apple Premium?

- $180 buys you a 500 GB NAS
- $300 buys you a 500 GB Time Capsule model

Therefore, you are paying $120 for a wireless N router. You can get a wireless N router for $50:

Newegg.com - ENCORE ENHWI-N IEEE 802.11b/g, IEEE 802.11n Draft Wireless Router - Retail

I have no idea whether this is a good router or not, but it should also be noted that many Macs will not even support wireless N, so the benefactors of N right now are limited. You can get a wireless G router for about the same price.

Of course, I don't know of any other devices that are a combined router + NAS, so the real draw is in consolidation and not having to attach your NAS to your network via Ethernet. The jury is also still out whether Time Capsule will actually make a good router that provides easy access to common router features (e.g. port forwarding, security, etc.)

My point: the benefactors of the *full value* offered by Time Capsule are limited in scope. For everybody else that simply wants a network disk and doesn't care about this other stuff, you don't need Time Capsule if 10.5.2 delivers Time Machine fixes.

It should also be noted that you can get NAS devices that include disk pairs for additional redundancy. To me, there is far more value here than in wlreless N. I already own a wireless G router I'm happy with.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

- $180 buys you a 500 GB NAS
- $300 buys you a 500 GB Time Capsule model

Therefore, you are paying $120 for a wireless N router.

Actually it's $180 for an Airport Extreme, so you're actually paying $120 for 500TB

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You can get a wireless N router for $50:

Newegg.com - ENCORE ENHWI-N IEEE 802.11b/g, IEEE 802.11n Draft Wireless Router - Retail

I have no idea whether this is a good router or not

Don't you think that's an important fact to know? How much did you pay for the router you have at your house right now?

[mpancha]

besson3c >> As much as I think Time Capsule is just a way to milk money out of users (if they don't give full NAS support outside of Time Capsule for Time Machine), its not really a premium in this sense. Like you said, $120 buys you a 500 gb nas. The airport extreme base stationogoes for $180.

$120 + $180 = $300....

Personally, rather than combining the AEBS and a hard drive to make time capsule, I would like to see them put out a hard drive in the same size enclosure as the AEBS that plugs in via USB to the AEBS.

--

to answer your question though, no, I won't be recommending Time Capsule to my circle of Apple users. I'm not a fan of combiiing products, and HDs fail. Without having seen a Time Capsule yet, I'll go with no. Once they're out, I may change my mind though.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Actually it's $180 for an Airport Extreme, so you're actually paying $120 for 500TB

The Airport Extreme is also extremely overpriced... I'm more than happy with my Linksys Wireless G Router that I bought for somewhere in the neighborhood of $70-80.

Don't you think that's an important fact to know? How much did you pay for the router you have at your house right now?

Sure, but it's also completely unknown how good TC is as a router anyway, so...

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Actually it's $180 for an Airport Extreme, so you're actually paying $120 for 500TB

That would be an amazing price! But $120 for 500 GB is still pretty good. You might get away cheaper if you puzzle something together from the cheapest PC components, but most people are not interested in spending their time in getting that to work. So to most who don't already own an Airport Extreme I would recommend a Time Capsule (judging from what we already know about the device).

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mpancha 

besson3c >> As much as I think Time Capsule is just a way to milk money out of users (if they don't give full NAS support outside of Time Capsule for Time Machine), its not really a premium in this sense. Like you said, $120 buys you a 500 gb nas. The airport extreme base stationogoes for $180.

$120 + $180 = $300....

Personally, rather than combining the AEBS and a hard drive to make time capsule, I would like to see them put out a hard drive in the same size enclosure as the AEBS that plugs in via USB to the AEBS.

--

to answer your question though, no, I won't be recommending Time Capsule to my circle of Apple users. I'm not a fan of combiiing products, and HDs fail. Without having seen a Time Capsule yet, I'll go with no. Once they're out, I may change my mind though.

True, but like I said in my other post, Airport Extreme is also really overpriced (unless you want to connect a printer directly to the router or you want to use Airdisk).

I agree with you on all other accounts though, especially the lack of HD redundancy. "Server grade hard drive" my ass! A *real* server grade HD of that capacity would likely cost in the neighborhood of $1000 and even higher! Just ask anybody who has worked with a SAN...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

That would be an amazing price! But $120 for 500 GB is still pretty good. You might get away cheaper if you puzzle something together from the cheapest PC components, but most people are not interested in spending their time in getting that to work. So to most who don't already own an Airport Extreme I would recommend a Time Capsule (judging from what we already know about the device).

Why does it have to be an Airport Extreme? Apple's marketing has worked wonders into making people think that there is something magical about AE...

For those that really want the consolidation and don't already have a wireless router, I'd only be inclined to *possibly* recommend TC if it turns out that it makes for a good wireless router. For me, it would have to at least support WAP, port forwarding, dyndns, and wireless channel changing.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The Airport Extreme is also extremely overpriced... I'm more than happy with my Linksys Wireless G Router that I bought for somewhere in the neighborhood of $70-80.

So your beef is with the Airport Extreme then, not Time Capsule. Time Capsule is not that bad a deal.

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

That would be an amazing price!

owned

[besson3c]

Dakar: I think we are talking past each other.

For people who already have a wireless network (which is probably most people), TC doesn't have much value over its competitors.

[Dakar the Fourth]

What are its competitors? It's offered as an all-in-one solution. No one should be buying just for its hard drive.

[lpkmckenna]

It would be great for my mom.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

What are its competitors? It's offered as an all-in-one solution. No one should be buying just for its hard drive.

I think a lot of people will. It's being marketed as a Time Machine companion device.

[Simon]

$120 for a 500GB NAS is a sweet deal.

$180 for the AEBS is at the upper end, but the easy configuration (DiskUility.app is much nicer than these cheap web browser based solution) and reliable operation make it worth every penny IMHO.

Yes, TC is definitely a nice product. As always you can find the same specs for less. But anybody who's used Apple products knows that the user experience is more than just the sum of the hardware specs divided by the price.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I think a lot of people will. It's being marketed as a Time Machine companion device.

If you say so. I don't think the kind of people who are worried about keeping back-ups won't realize what they're buying.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

True, but like I said in my other post, Airport Extreme is also really overpriced (unless you want to connect a printer directly to the router or you want to use Airdisk).

I was *just* going to say:

Find me the cheapest 802.11n-based printer-bridge/gigabit ethernet router combo that also does WDS.

I don't think you'll find one cheaper than the Airport Extreme Base Station.

Add 500GB NAS at 802.11n/gigabit speeds, and I'll bet the Time Capsule is, in fact, among the cheapest options out there, if not *the* cheapest.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Simon 

$120 for a 500GB NAS is a sweet deal.

$180 for the AEBS is at the upper end, but the easy configuration (DiskUility.app is much nicer than these cheap web browser based solution) and reliable operation make it worth every penny IMHO.

Yes, TC is definitely a nice product. As always you can find the same specs for less. But anybody who's used Apple products knows that the user experience is more than just the sum of the hardware specs divided by the price.

User experience? It's a router and a disk. Interface and "experiences" are minimal, and for those that need to interface with their router once in a while, I think a web browser provides an adequate experience that is adequately designed for the people that will be using this interface. Grandma will not be tweaking their router config regardless of the accessibility of the interface.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by analogika 

I was *just* going to say:

Find me the cheapest 802.11n-based printer-bridge/gigabit ethernet router combo that also does WDS.

I don't think you'll find one cheaper than the Airport Extreme Base Station.

Add 500GB NAS at 802.11n/gigabit speeds, and I'll bet the Time Capsule is, in fact, among the cheapest options out there, if not *the* cheapest.

This is where this debate falls apart.

What I'm saying is: "find me people that need all of these features. Find me people that are buying these Apple products specifically to use these features". The people that I have met generally just assume that since they have a Mac they would be best suited to get an AE or a product like Time Capsule for the basic core services provided by these products (i.e. wireless router and network disk, respectfully).

What you guys seem to be saying is that for those people that actually want all of these features and you stack them up, the price is good. In many cases these products don't even have competitors when you look at them this way. I don't know of a combined NAS + wireless N router like Time Capsule is. This is a fair argument, and I accept the notion that a product like AE or Time Capsule is the Rolls Royce of their ilk (providing that they execute their core functionality at least as good as their competitors).

However, like I said, I think that most people are just ill informed and that Apple takes advantage of this with the premiums they charge for these additional features that are not needed, or in many cases are needed but are simply overpriced.

[analogika]

n-based wireless is a great feature for ANYBODY who has a Mac less than a year old and wants to do wireless backup.

Likewise for gigabit ethernet, except that goes back a couple more years.

And people wanting to extend the range of their networks, or print wirelessly, is way more common than you might think. It's nice to have a box that'll just do that, should you want to.

Add to that the fact that your mom can set one up - which is hard to put a price-tag on...

[ghporter]

Dakar's statement about the price equivalents is accurate. Let's not get into "I could get a NAS box for $40, a huge drive for $160, and an N router for $50 and wind up saving a ton of money" because we're not talking about kludging together such a system. We're talking about the same sort of thing as "why should I buy an Apple wireless router when I can get a wireless router from someone else for less?" In this case it's a wireless router with a built in NAS and a big freakin' drive all assembled and backed by Apple versus low-dollar homebrew systems (like mine for example-a Linksys wired router, a Linksys wireless G access point, a CoolMax NAS box with a Maxtor 300GB drive). I could upgrade the whole thing to half a terabyte and N speeds for probably less than $150 without shopping. But would I have an Apple product with Apple's backing? Certainly not.

Would I recommend Time Capsule? Maybe. Give me a scenario and I'll give you a definitive answer. Maybe-depends on how definitive your scenario is.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Dakar's statement about the price equivalents is accurate. Let's not get into "I could get a NAS box for $40, a huge drive for $160, and an N router for $50 and wind up saving a ton of money" because we're not talking about kludging together such a system. We're talking about the same sort of thing as "why should I buy an Apple wireless router when I can get a wireless router from someone else for less?" In this case it's a wireless router with a built in NAS and a big freakin' drive all assembled and backed by Apple versus low-dollar homebrew systems (like mine for example-a Linksys wired router, a Linksys wireless G access point, a CoolMax NAS box with a Maxtor 300GB drive). I could upgrade the whole thing to half a terabyte and N speeds for probably less than $150 without shopping. But would I have an Apple product with Apple's backing? Certainly not.

Would I recommend Time Capsule? Maybe. Give me a scenario and I'll give you a definitive answer. Maybe-depends on how definitive your scenario is.

What do you say to my most recent posts on this issue?

[MacosNerd]

I like Glen and Dakar's take on this debate.
Yes we can cobble together a much cheaper solution, heck you could probably find deals on ebay for the nas and router for a quarter of the price.

Consumers (which this product is geared for) for the most part prefer one stop shopping. Apple has provided an elegant solution. Does it fit everyone's needs no, of course not. Should it be compared with bargain basement routers and stuff. No, because we generally don't compare any apple products with bargain basement stuff.

Its a full fledged turnkey solution, not something you need to buy in disparate shopping sprees and then build it.

[wataru]

I was interested in Time Capsule as a replacement for my Airport Express, since my main machine is a laptop and I rarely connect my external drive for backups. But when I found out it doesn't do AirTunes, I decided it wasn't worth it for me.

But Time Capsule is perfect for my parents, who like to 1) forget to backup, 2) lose data, and 3) complain to me about it. Next time I'm home I think I'll set them up with this.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What do you say to my most recent posts on this issue?

That you make good points. But I don't "need" my cordless phone either, though it does have features I really like. Some people may really like to have all those features in one, Apple-branded product. But we should make sure we're discussing apples and Apples, that's all.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Some people may really like to have all those features in one, Apple-branded product.

Well I hate say that goes without saying but besson seems intent on trying to find non-apple solutions. This is fine, but being on a macintosh forum, its kind of silly to say the least.

He as anyone is free to use what ever product they choose, I like to have apple branded products, provided they solve a problem. Time capsule is an excellent example. I'm using my laptop away from my desk, about 50% of the time. That means the backups are not occuring. Time capsule will solve this problem, an in elegant, and simple way.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

User experience? It's a router and a disk. Interface and "experiences" are minimal, and for those that need to interface with their router once in a while, I think a web browser provides an adequate experience that is adequately designed for the people that will be using this interface. Grandma will not be tweaking their router config regardless of the accessibility of the interface.

You see, that's you. You don't care about these issues and therefore you go with the cheapest prouct around. And obviously that's not the AEBS or TC.

Other people care about these things. Luckily for them there's a company that creates a product where a great deal of care has been put into exactly these details as well as the interplay between hardware and software.

Such a product isn't just expensive. People actually buy additional comfort and a better user experience when they opt for the more expensive product. You might consider that not to be worth it. There are enough others that do however.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

However, like I said, I think that most people are just ill informed and that Apple takes advantage of this with the premiums they charge for these additional features that are not needed, or in many cases are needed but are simply overpriced.

Oh for Pete's sake give me a break. The non-informed customer is always taken advantage of. Welcome to capitalism. Stop acting like Apple's deceiving you. Apple is a business. They sell stuff so their stockholders make a lot of money. You're not forced to buy their stuff. A lot of people do however and usually they're very happy with what they get.

In the case of TC Apple offers a high-end product with an excellent user experience. If that's worth $299 to you, you'll enjoy it. If you need less features or you couldn't care less about user experience just buy some generic el cheapo router. It's your very own decision. You're free to do whatever you want, but obviously it's your choice. Other people may make a different decision. And that doesn't mean somebody's wrong.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I could upgrade the whole thing to half a terabyte and N speeds for probably less than $150 without shopping.

How much would you have spent then, total?

And let's say you want a WDS-extensible network (to use the living room Airport Express for better reception in the basement, as well) and a printer bridge.

Oh, and gigabit ethernet.

Time Capsule is actually pretty damn CHEAP for what it offers.

[ghporter]

Moving from a functional wireless G network with 300GB of NAS storage to a functional wireless N, gigabit network with 500GB of NAS storage would require replacing my wired router and wireless access point, as well as the hard drive. My estimate of $150 was off because of the price of gigabit wired/wireless routers (N or otherwise) being generally over that amount. My overall cost would be more like $250 or more for the upgrade-awfully near the price of Time Capsule. My point was that you can tinker and cobble together whatever you might want, but a unified, integrated package is always going to be less expensive than the extended cost of building what you want, if for no other reason than the economy of scale the integrated device's manufacturer realizes.

[Dakar the Fourth]

So does anyone agree with besson, or have we pretty much reached a consensus here?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Simon 

You see, that's you. You don't care about these issues and therefore you go with the cheapest prouct around. And obviously that's not the AEBS or TC.

Other people care about these things. Luckily for them there's a company that creates a product where a great deal of care has been put into exactly these details as well as the interplay between hardware and software.

Such a product isn't just expensive. People actually buy additional comfort and a better user experience when they opt for the more expensive product. You might consider that not to be worth it. There are enough others that do however.

I value user interface, but I don't care so much about things I don't actually interface with. How often do you interface with your router?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

So does anyone agree with besson, or have we pretty much reached a consensus here?

If you think we have reached a consensus, you are welcome to find another thread to post in.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

If you think we have reached a consensus, you are welcome to find another thread to post in.

Hehe, that was a little more hostile than normal from you.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Hehe, that was a little more hostile than normal from you.

I'm continuing to post here because I'm not sure I've made myself clear... My take now is different than my take when I started this thread.

Basically, for those people that already have a wireless network they are happy with, and/or don't want to or can't upgrade to wireless N, there is far less value in TC.

It would be interesting to know how many buy TC simply because they want a network disk and don't need a wireless network. My guess is that this is a significant population, probably even the majority.

[Dakar the Fourth]

But if they're using old router technology (b/g, non-gigabit ethernet) then there's still hidden/future value in their purchase. And your guess is still just a guess.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

But if they're using old router technology (b/g, non-gigabit ethernet) then there's still hidden/future value in their purchase. And your guess is still just a guess.

Well, for the time being it's also a guess that TC will make for a usable router, but I see your point...

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Well, for the time being it's also a guess that TC will make for a usable router, but I see your point...

Why would it not be a usable router especially since this is based on the airport extreme.

Basically, for those people that already have a wireless network they are happy with, and/or don't want to or can't upgrade to wireless N, there is far less value in TC.

Of course, that's kind of true for anything. I'm happy with my MBP so it doesn't make sense to go out and buy a new one (if they refresh the line soon). The same goes here, if you have a wireless router now and your content with the performance and features it makes little sense to buy Time Capsule.

By the same token people who wish to upgrade to a faster flavor of wifi have an added option of now including a hard drive to simplify their back up strategy.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Why would it not be a usable router especially since this is based on the airport extreme.

I'm assuming this was intended to be a question?

Well, for mainstream audiences there is considerations of range, reliability, security, etc. For advanced users there is the need for features such as port forwarding, dyndns, security, and the ability to set wireless channels.

It is a good bet that it will probably be a good router for mainstream users, I agree. The jury is out for others, for the time being.

By the same token people who wish to upgrade to a faster flavor of wifi have an added option of now including a hard drive to simplify their back up strategy.

Do you think TC is mostly going to attract people who want to be the first on the block with wireless N, or people who simply want a network disk and don't look beyond TC for this?

[Dakar the Fourth]

I think for people looking for a simple solution, Time Capsule offers a very attractive package with extra benefits.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I think for people looking for a simple solution, Time Capsule offers a very attractive package with extra benefits.

I'm sure it does, but aren't NAS devices intended to be simply plug in and go, much like a router or any other sort of network appliance? I don't own one myself, but I know that a countless number of people have managed to connect a router to their network without a difficulty (leaving the default settings as is, of course In your experience, are people more inclined to setup their networks in a sane way when presented with an Apple GUI, or do people not care either way as long as it works for them? (There is no wrong answer here, I'm rather ambivalent about this).

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm sure it does, but aren't NAS devices intended to be simply plug in and go, much like a router or any other sort of network appliance? I don't own one myself, but I know that a countless number of people have managed to connect a router to their network without a difficulty (leaving the default settings as is, of course In your experience, are people more inclined to setup their networks in a sane way when presented with an Apple GUI, or do people not care either way as long as it works for them? (There is no wrong answer here, I'm rather ambivalent about this).

In my experience, people aren't going to know what you're talking about when you say NAS device. Honestly.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

For advanced users there is the need for features such as port forwarding, dyndns, security, and the ability to set wireless channels.

And for people who want that type of control then TC or AEB is not a good choice and never was.

It is a good bet that it will probably be a good router for mainstream users, I agree. The jury is out for others, for the time being.

That's generally been Apple's target audience of late.

Do you think TC is mostly going to attract people who want to be the first on the block with wireless N, or people who simply want a network disk and don't look beyond TC for this?

I think most mainstream people have no idea what wireless N is or NAS. (nor do they care) They see that they can have a faster wireless router and it includes a disk for backups. They do want things that go faster and makes their life easier which TC does by simplifing backups.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

In my experience, people aren't going to know what you're talking about when you say NAS device. Honestly.

There's that issue too... TC will probably be the first NAS marketed in such a way to make its usage clear to customers. In this case, a Time Machine companion. I'd be willing to bet that far more go for TC because of this rather than being a wireless N router.

My question IRT setting up networks was whether or not people would click through Apple's setup GUI accepting whatever defaults are offered, or whether they would be more inclined to take the time to configure their network properly this way? I think that users might be a little more inclined, but a significant population won't bother, making the improved usability that Apple provides pretty much a moot point.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

My point was that you can tinker and cobble together whatever you might want, but a unified, integrated package is always going to be less expensive than the extended cost of building what you want, if for no other reason than the economy of scale the integrated device's manufacturer realizes.

But that point is the exact opposite of besson3c's whose argument when it comes to Apple is *invariably* that it's cheaper to roll your own.

Which, in recent years, simply isn't true all that often.

(Especially not if you actually assess your time - or that of whoever builds the system - with real-world dollars.)

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

There's that issue too... TC will probably be the first NAS marketed in such a way to make its usage clear to customers. In this case, a Time Machine companion. I'd be willing to bet that far more go for TC because of this rather than being a wireless N router.

Absolutely. If you just want wireless N, go Airport Extreme.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

My question IRT setting up networks was whether or not people would click through Apple's setup GUI accepting whatever defaults are offered, or whether they would be more inclined to take the time to configure their network properly this way? I think that users might be a little more inclined, but a significant population won't bother, making the improved usability that Apple provides pretty much a moot point.

Internet protocols require so much knowledge of jargon and terminology that its better to start at defaults and just solve problems (port forwarding, DNS, NAT) as they crop up.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by analogika 

But that point is the exact opposite of besson3c's whose argument when it comes to Apple is *invariably* that it's cheaper to roll your own.

Which, in recent years, simply isn't true all that often.

(Especially not if you actually assess your time - or that of whoever builds the system - with real-world dollars.)

- Apple displays: overpriced

- AEBS (prior to wireless N): overpriced (you could make the argument for Apple's wireless cards too)

- Mac Pros: overpriced (although since there really isn't another source for Mac towers other than Apple, this is always a tricky argument to make without getting into whether the value comes from software or hardware, or both.

- Apple mouse/keyboard: probably overpriced

- BTO parts such as bigger RAM/HD: overpriced (although other vendors such as Dell overprice their BTO components too)

Addressing another argument made in here and elsewhere along the lines of "well, you could just buy some cheap non-Apple thing"... Who says that people like myself go for the cheapest possible non-Apple product? The thing is, even if you go for the highest rated non-Apple product, this is often still cheaper than Apple's offerings. Is the implication here that everything that doesn't have Apple's name on it is cheap and/or inferior?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Absolutely. If you just want wireless N, go Airport Extreme.

Or any other vendor that puts out a good wireless router... Granted, Apple is one of the first to the game in getting its wireless N stuff out early, but if you wait a little while I guarantee you could get a kick ass router cheaper than what Apple charges, just like you can get a wireless G router (the highest rated on NewEgg right now last I checked are put out by Linksys) that works quite well and is much cheaper than an Airport Extreme.

Internet protocols require so much knowledge of jargon and terminology that its better to start at defaults and just solve problems (port forwarding, DNS, NAT) as they crop up.

Does this also apply to security settings that leave a WiFi network wide open?