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I'm Coming Out - I Want the World to Know: Brave, or No?
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Waragainstsleep
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Sep 2, 2017, 10:13 PM
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...-mormon-church

I'm amazed by that young girl coming out in church.... I gather the Mormons aren't as hateful as many Christian sects but still, that must have taken tremendous bravery for one so young.
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Sep 8, 2017 at 12:09 PM. )
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BadKosh
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Sep 3, 2017, 08:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I gather the Mormons aren't as hateful as many Christian sects ...
Stereotype much? Are Assumptions your reality?
     
Jawbone54
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Sep 3, 2017, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I gather the Mormons aren't as hateful as many Christian sects but still, that must have taken tremendous bravery for one so young.
Wow.
     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Sep 3, 2017, 05:36 PM
 
Are you two seriously going to pretend that a number of Christian denominations in the US don't disown their own kids for coming out as gay? I never said it was all of them but I'm pretty sure its quite common in the more strict/organised groups that would do something like pull the mic out from a 12 year old girl because they don't like what she's saying.
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding and Badkosh thinks my assumption is wrong because Mormons do hate gay people like the other more devout Christian groups.
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subego
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Sep 3, 2017, 06:29 PM
 
I'm not going to call mainstream, American Christian denominations exactly gay friendly, but no, they're not going to encourage disowning gay children.

Also can't say I'm a huge fan of dramatic coming out. I generally see it as using "being true to oneself" as an excuse to uncork a magnum of pent-up resentment in about the most destructive way possible.
     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Sep 3, 2017, 08:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not going to call mainstream, American Christian denominations exactly gay friendly, but no, they're not going to encourage disowning gay children.
And here I thought 'sects' implied the less mainstream, more culty groups. That said, I have a feeling that mainstream in the bible belt and mainstream in Chicago, LA or New York are potentially very far apart on this issue.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Also can't say I'm a huge fan of dramatic coming out. I generally see it as using "being true to oneself" as an excuse to uncork a magnum of pent-up resentment in about the most destructive way possible.
This is bad and frankly I expect better from you.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 4, 2017, 02:18 AM
 
I said that assuming it would be challenged, but this is a little vague.
     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Sep 4, 2017, 06:56 AM
 
I'll resist using the most extreme analogy.

Take BLM. There are white people who get very angry that BLM don't chant "all lives matter". Its stating the obvious to say that black lives matter, but its stated because there are people who don't seem to understand it. Would you say it is destructive to (try to) tell them? Some people are still treated badly because of who they are and they shouldn't be. "Not wanting to be destructive" is "not rocking the boat" or "not upsetting the status quo". I'm sure you can think of your own examples where not wanting to upset those in power is a truly terrible reason to stay quiet about an injustice. By saying its needlessly destructive to come out in an intolerant community setting, you are like those white people who get all pissy at BLM for not chanting "all lives matter".
That little girl made some bigots feel a little bit uncomfortable. The thing about uncomfortable is, you get used to it. Then it stops being uncomfortable.


I can't claim to be any kind of expert on coming out, but I do know how hard some people find it when they think their peers might reject them. The real risk of destruction is not the risk of pissing off bigots, its of losing people you love.
There is a very practical element to coming out publicly, would you like to constantly explain to people hitting on you that they are wasting their time? Telling your whole community at once negates that issue. The girl in question is perhaps a little young for that to be her motivation, but coming out has become something of a right of passage. She clearly felt it was time to lay some groundwork.

Not having much time for what you perceive as drama is fine. I don't necessarily agree but it certainly can be done over-dramatically and I'm sure it is all the time, but I'm not going to condemn you for that opinion. Its the destructive part of your statement that is somewhat reprehensible. Society needs to change its attitudes to people who are different. Much of it has already but its nowhere near there yet. It will get there, its pretty much inevitable, but it doesn't happen by people being quiet, hiding who they are and not upsetting the status quo.
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subego
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Sep 4, 2017, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'll resist using the most extreme analogy.
Coming out isn't destructive, dramatic coming out (generally) is. It's the forced drama which is destructive.
     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Sep 4, 2017, 06:31 PM
 
What exactly makes it dramatic for you?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 4, 2017, 06:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
What exactly makes it dramatic for you?
I'm not sure I understand the question. Being dramatic about it is what makes it dramatic.

Like, say, dropping it at Thanksgiving dinner.
     
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Sep 4, 2017, 07:31 PM
 
Or just before the NFL draft?
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subego
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Sep 4, 2017, 08:09 PM
 
Eh...

While certainly dramatic, the celebrity angle pretty radically alters the context.
     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Sep 4, 2017, 10:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Eh...

While certainly dramatic, the celebrity angle pretty radically alters the context.
The fact you made the statement implies you thought the girl was being needlessly dramatic. Is that not the case?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 5, 2017, 03:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
The fact you made the statement implies you thought the girl was being needlessly dramatic. Is that not the case?
My original statement was based solely on the five words "girl comes out at church". That's certainly a recipe for needless drama.

Looking over the details, I'd haul-out squarely on the parents.

She wanted to discuss this at church, and her parents approved because denying it would be teaching her she "doesn't have a voice".

These are the same parents who indoctrinated her (likely since birth) into a religion which says acting on homosexual desires is a one-way ticket to eternal damnation.

Their actions have come home to roost, and rather than take responsibility, they send out a frigging 12-year-old to fight the battle they caused.
( Last edited by subego; Sep 5, 2017 at 06:00 AM. )
     
Laminar
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Sep 5, 2017, 01:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding and Badkosh thinks my assumption is wrong because Mormons do hate gay people like the other more devout Christian groups.
In general, aside from apostasy, Prince said church cannon orders that disciplinary councils are held for church leaders for "serious transgressions" that include what the church considers sexual sins, such as adultery and same-sex relations, or crimes like embezzlement or fraud or other charges.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religio...d-very-n791351

Gay Mormons have faced a range of adversities, from excommunication and estrangement from families to reparative therapy and even shock treatments.
http://affirmation.wpengine.com/wp-c...unications.pdf

Further reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homose...ter-day_Saints

Mormons are probably stricter than average, but the average American Protestant's views trend inline with whatever's acceptable in the outside culture, just on a 5-10 year delay.

If pressed, I think the average American Protestant church's official view on homosexuality is:

1. Being a gay person isn't wrong
2. Having gay sex is a sin (per Leviticus, primarily, also Romans 1)
3. Christians should repent of their sin and not knowingly, willfully, and continually participate in what they know is sin
4. For even more fun, pile on Matthew 5:28 "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." and apply that to gay thoughts.

It's my impression that most (at least >50%) of American Protestant churches would not perform a homosexual wedding ceremony.

Here are the top ten religious Christian denominations in the US:
http://archive.wfn.org/2010/02/msg00100.html

1. The Catholic Church, 68,115,001 members, up 1.49 percent.

In 1997, the US Catholic Bishops Conference published a letter entitled "Always our children", as a pastoral message to parents of gay and bisexual children with guidelines for pastoral ministers. It told parents not to break off contact with a gay or bisexual son or daughter; they should instead look for appropriate counseling both for the child and for themselves. The letter said that, while homosexual orientation is not sinful, homosexual activity is immoral, but gay people must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity, and allowed to participate actively in the Christian community, and even, if living chastely, to hold leadership positions.
In May 2008, Cardinal Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone, acting on behalf of Pope Benedict XVI, confirmed as applying to all Catholic seminaries everywhere the 2005 declaration[249] that "the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called 'gay culture'."[250][251] Subsequently in 2010, Bertone, commenting publicly on the clerical abuse crisis, said that "many psychologists and psychiatrists have demonstrated that there is no relation between celibacy and pedophilia". He said they do believe, however, "that there is a relation between homosexuality and pedophilia". "That is true. ... That is the problem."[252] In fact, academic literature supports no link between homosexuality and child abuse, within the clergy or not.[60]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homose...#United_States

2. Southern Baptist Convention, 16,228,438 members, down 0.24 percent.

We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.
http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/positionstatements.asp
Further fun reading


3. The United Methodist Church, 7,853,987 members, down 0.98 percent.

Regarding the ministry of the ordained

¶ 304.3: The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church. View full statement.

¶ 341.6: Ceremonies that celebrate homosexual unions shall not be conducted by our ministers and shall not be conducted in our churches.
http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/w...-homosexuality

4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5,974,041 members, up 1.71 percent.

(Covered Mormons already)

5. The Church of God in Christ, 5,499,875 members, no membership updates reported.

We believe that the homosexual practices of same-sex couples are in violation of religious and
social norms and are aberrant and deviant behavior. We believe that these unions are sinful and
in direct violation of the law of God in that they are a deviation from the natural use and purpose
of the body. "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women
exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural
use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is
shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which is due." (Romans 1:26-27
NKJV). We believe that to legalize such unions will signal ecclesiastical and social approval of
homosexuality and sexual deviancy as legitimate lifestyles.
Therefore, in spite of the progressive normalization of alternative lifestyles and the growing legal
acceptance of same-sex unions; we declare our opposition to any deviation from traditional
marriages of male and female. Notwithstanding the rulings of the court systems of the land in
support of same-sex unions; we resolve that the Church of God in Christ stand resolutely firm
and never allow the sanctioning of same-sex marriages by its clergy nor recognize the
legitimacy of such unions.
http://www.cogic.org/wp-content/uplo...ECLARATION.pdf

6. National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Inc, 5,000,000 members, no membership updates reported.

Gender & Sexual Orientation: Does the NBC have a position on homosexual practices and the ordination of homosexual clergy?
The National Baptist Convention USA Inc. does not have an "official" position on any issues with regards to homosexuality. Historically, we as a Convention have not sought to endorse particular positions on behalf of local Baptist Churches. This is in keeping with the nature of a Baptist polity which does not permit us to make authoritative, pontifical, doctrinal statements or creeds on behalf of our constituency. We believe in the local freedom of each member of our Convention to decide for itself on such issues as homosexuality. However, if you were to take a poll of traditional, missionary Black Baptist Churches, it is very safe to say that you will find a majority of them: • Against homosexuality/lesbianism as a legitimate expression of God's will. • Against ordaining practicing homosexuals/lesbians for any type of ministry in the Body of Christ. • Against, but permits persons guilty of illicit acts of a heterosexual nature, for example, adultery and fornication, to continue in the practice of ministry in the Body of Christ (with the proper accountability measures, i.e., censure, repentance, counseling, etc. in place).
http://www.nationalbaptist.com/resou...tion-faqs.html

7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, 4,633,887 members, down 1.62 percent.

Because of the love of the Triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we are a
people set free for lives of responsibility committed to seeking the good of all.
This statement responds to this church’s call for a foundational framework48
that will help it discern what it means to follow faithfully God’s law of love in
the increasingly complex sphere of human sexuality. It does not offer onceand-for-all
answers to contemporary questions. Rather, it seeks to tap the deep
roots of Scripture and the Lutheran theological tradition for speciÀ c Christian
convictions, themes, and wisdom that will assist people of faith to discern what
is responsible and faithful action in the midst of the complexity of daily life.
Homosexuals in active relationships are allowed as clergy, churches can perform same-sex marriage ceremonies.

8. National Baptist Convention of America, Inc., 3,500,000 members, no membership updates reported.

(too many cross references with NBC-USA)

9. Assemblies of God (ranked 10 last year), 2,899,702 members, up 1.27 percent.

It should be noted at the outset that there is absolutely no affirmation of homosexual
activity, same-sex marriage, or changes in sexual identity found anywhere in Scripture.
Male and female genders are carefully defined and unconfused. The consistent ideal for
sexual experience in the Bible is chastity4 for those outside a monogamous heterosexual
marriage and fidelity5 for those inside such a marriage. There is also abundant evidence
that homosexual behavior, along with illicit heterosexual behavior, is immoral and comes
under the judgment of God.
We believe, in light of biblical revelation, that the growing cultural acceptance of
homosexual identity and behavior (male and female), same-sex marriage, and efforts to
change one’s biological sexual identity are all symptomatic of a broader spiritual disorder
that threatens the family, the government, and the church.
https://ag.org/-/media/AGORG/Beliefs...lity.pdf?la=en

10. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) 1(ranked 9 last year), 2,844,952 members, down 3.28 percent.

As recently as 2010, the General Assembly agreed that the Presbyterian Church (USA), “has no consensus in the interpretation of Scripture on issues of same-sex practice.” However, the church has also adopted policies that allow for the ordination of LGBTQ ministers and the celebration of same-sex marriages. Experiences may differ greatly across individual communities but many congregations are entirely welcoming and inclusive. Groups such as More Light Presbyterians are committed to “work for the full participation of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer (LGBTQ) people in the life, ministry and witness of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and in society.” Similarly, the Covenant Network of Presbyterians is a coalition of clergy and laity who hope to “strengthen the church of Jesus Christ, with the help of God's grace,” and are, “called to achieve this goal by furthering the inclusion of LGBTQ persons, and by working for the unity of the PC(USA).”
https://www.hrc.org/resources/stance...ian-church-usa

So of the top 10 denominations, only two expressly allow gay clergy and marriage ceremonies.

This doesn't mean that parents excommunicate their kids or force them into conversion therapy, but the "coming out" conversation is going to be a lot harder.
     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Sep 6, 2017, 05:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Lots of words


So in other words, my apparently shocking assumption that a 12 year old Mormon girl is hella brave to come out like she did is about right.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Jawbone54
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Sep 7, 2017, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post


So in other words, my apparently shocking assumption that a 12 year old Mormon girl is hella brave to come out like she did is about right.
The reason I didn't respond earlier is it seemed that you equated mainline Christianity with the Westboro Baptist Church when you use a word like "hateful." If that's the starting point of the argument, it might be a long shot to convince you that the data Laminar provided proves otherwise.

I mean no disrespect, but I'm not sure how fruitful the conversation would be, especially since I'm coming from an even more traditional worldview as a oneness pentecostal.

Long story short: I've never seen one person in our relatively-sizable, conservative church ostracize a family member for being gay. That said, we don't condone due to our beliefs, but neither do we discard. Every time I invite a gay person to my church, I always tell them they can sit with my family, as it should make them feel less judged sitting by people in leadership. And we're one of the more conservative denominations in the U.S. Look at Laminar's statistics to show how much more progressive other denoms are.

[EDIT] This may belong in the P/W Lounge.

[EDIT #2] If anyone happens to see Kim Davis at the bottom of the notable oneness apostolic page, it's worth noting that she's a "fringe" type, independent and largely castigated by most pentecostals.
     
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Sep 7, 2017, 11:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
[EDIT] This may belong in the P/W Lounge.
Maybe... what if that discussion continues in its own thread?
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Sep 7, 2017, 12:46 PM
 
Dislike >< HATE
disapprove >< Hate.

The word Hate is overused and poorly used. I see it mostly used by intellectually lazy, and those with poor vocabularies. It gets really old, really fast.
     
subego
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Sep 7, 2017, 01:02 PM
 
Yeah. I hate that.
     
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Sep 7, 2017, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Dislike >< HATE
disapprove >< Hate.

The word Hate is overused and poorly used. I see it mostly used by intellectually lazy, and those with poor vocabularies. It gets really old, really fast.
I have started saying I greatly dislike "X" instead of hate.
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Sep 7, 2017, 03:46 PM
 
     
Paco500
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Sep 7, 2017, 06:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Long story short: I've never seen one person in our relatively-sizable, conservative church ostracize a family member for being gay. That said, we don't condone due to our beliefs, but neither do we discard. Every time I invite a gay person to my church, I always tell them they can sit with my family, as it should make them feel less judged sitting by people in leadership. And we're one of the more conservative denominations in the U.S. Look at Laminar's statistics to show how much more progressive other denoms are.
Here's the thing, even though no one may ostracise anyone, and even though you may be welcoming and make an effort to make someone feel comfortable, there is an unavoidable conflict.

The vast majority of gay people believe they have no choice as to their sexuality. Your church tells them that something they have no choice in makes them not deserving of redemption. It's a simplistic analogy, but if a church's dogma dictated that left-handers we're going to hell, and while you're welcome at church, as long as you continue to use your left hand, you're dammed. If you stopped using your left hand and lived as a right-hander, you could be a complete person welcome to eternal life with God.

Those left handers that chose to deny their left-handedness and live as right-handers would have to deny who they were. It's possible to do, my Grandmother was left-handed but was raised right-handed for moral reasons (because apparently the deep south in the first half of the 20th century was bizarre) and it didn't destroy her life; she was able to marry the man she loved and raise a family, but certainly it made her life harder- and she knew throughout her childhood she had to vigilantly deny who she was. Now imagine if what she had to deny meant she was never able to enter into a genuine, loving, physical relationship. That would have sucked. It would more than sucked, it would have been devastating.

I understand you believe what you believe, but the consequences of that are that people who wish to be in full fellowship with you have to sacrifice a core part of their humanity, and accept that something fundamental to their identity is inherently evil and must be denied.

I make the assumption that you believe some variation on at least some of the following points - correct me if I'm off base.

All people are sinners and we all must deny out sinful nature so it's not actually asking for a greater sacrifice than anyone must make to lead a righteous life.

and/or

Even if it is a greater sacrifice for a homosexual to deny their sexuality than you garden-variety fallen man, the reward of internal life with God is worth the sacrifice.

and/or

Homosexuality is simply a poor life choice that can been turned off with a bit of effort.

This is why I 'lost my faith.' It hit home when I had a child. I spent my life being taught that God was the ultimate father figure, all loving. But then I looked at my infant son and wondered what he could do to cause me to cast him out- to separate myself from him for the rest of my life. I'm not saying there is nothing my child could do to cause an irreparable rift, but his sexuality or who he chose to love would not be even close to being on that list.

I decided that if I was more tolerant than an all-loving God, he did not deserve my worship.

So while no one in your congregation may be ostracising a gay family member, and you may feel you are very welcoming, your world view is completely incompatible with their reality, and that may be worse.

I'm aware this may cause this thread to end up in the PWL, sorry all.
     
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Sep 7, 2017, 09:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
The reason I didn't respond earlier is it seemed that you equated mainline Christianity with the Westboro Baptist Church when you use a word like "hateful." If that's the starting point of the argument, it might be a long shot to convince you that the data Laminar provided proves otherwise.

I mean no disrespect, but I'm not sure how fruitful the conversation would be, especially since I'm coming from an even more traditional worldview as a oneness pentecostal.

Long story short: I've never seen one person in our relatively-sizable, conservative church ostracize a family member for being gay. That said, we don't condone due to our beliefs, but neither do we discard. Every time I invite a gay person to my church, I always tell them they can sit with my family, as it should make them feel less judged sitting by people in leadership. And we're one of the more conservative denominations in the U.S. Look at Laminar's statistics to show how much more progressive other denoms are.

[EDIT] This may belong in the P/W Lounge.

[EDIT #2] If anyone happens to see Kim Davis at the bottom of the notable oneness apostolic page, it's worth noting that she's a "fringe" type, independent and largely castigated by most pentecostals.
Hateful may or may not be too strong a word depending on which denomination we are talking about and ones own perspective. If you're inviting gay people in and sitting with them, maybe you aren't so hateful (depends why you're inviting them I guess. Are you hoping to save/cure them?). If you do disown a child or a friend I'd call that hateful, likewise if you cannot stand to hear someone speak about being homosexual I'm also inclined to think thats pretty hateful, especially if you cut them short without explanation or discussion.
( Last edited by Waragainstsleep; Sep 7, 2017 at 09:11 PM. Reason: Too many commas)
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Sep 8, 2017, 12:09 PM
 
Enjoy your new thread, keep it polite and it doesn't need to be in pol/war.
     
Laminar
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Sep 8, 2017, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
I spent my life being taught that God was the ultimate father figure, all loving.
But God is also a king, a ruler. He made laws and they exist for a reason, even if humans don't understand that reason. You can't focus on one facet and ignore the rest.

I agree with most what you said above, but every time I hear someone talking about how they reject God because they disagree with the morality of some part of the Bible it strikes me as odd. And this isn't necessarily coming from a strict Christian perspective, just a logical one.

I decided that if I was more tolerant than an all-loving God, he did not deserve my worship.
It's like...you're willing to accept that an all-knowing, all-powerful being wills the entire universe into existence, intricately designing every subatomic particle and placing them into perfect order to bring life into the world.

But that same omniscient, omnipotent Creator thinks I shouldn't eat bacon? Pffft, I'm better than that guy. What the hell does he know?

If God made the world and everything in it, He gets to make the rules. If we don't like those rules, it doesn't matter. If we think they're unloving or incompatible with a moral or accepting worldview, it doesn't matter.

Of course, the hitch in all of this is that no one actually follows all of the rules in the Bible, and plenty of loopholes exist to let you believe what you want to believe and do whatever you want to do. Want to eat shellfish and bacon and not stone adulterous women? Great! Let's talk about how there were three types of laws in the Old Testament, and that Christians are not subject to the civil or ritual laws laid out there, but we are subject to the moral laws. Well wait, what does the New Testament say about the law? Galatians 5:14 "For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself." Or maybe in Matthew 22 "37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”"

So now we have to talk about what "love" means and whether it's accepting people as they are or calling them out on what you believe is their sin.

Smarter, more well-studied people than I are on both sides of the argument, so the only firm stance I'll take is against certainty.

You might be interested in Rob Bell's book Love Wins. A lot of prominent Christian leaders got very upset when that book came out, that it was upsetting, untrue, and defied thousands of years of church theology. You know, like when Martin Luther nailed his theses on the door of the Catholic church.
     
subego
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Sep 8, 2017, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
likewise if you cannot stand to hear someone speak about being homosexual I'm also inclined to think thats pretty hateful, especially if you cut them short without explanation or discussion.
This is a very self-serving way to describe someone indicting the church's position on homosexuality... in church.

Churches are metaphorically considered houses into which one is invited. I take no issue with someone who feels the household should be castigated, however the proper course of action for that person is to decline the invitation.
     
reader50
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Sep 8, 2017, 02:39 PM
 
12 seems too young to know her orientation. Puberty has only recently onset (or may not have, depending on individual) and before puberty, mentioning the opposite sex produces "yukk!" statements.

Supposedly in the old west, marriages could happen at 14. But 12 is still pre-teen. Too young to be sure yet.
     
Laminar
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Sep 8, 2017, 04:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
12 seems too young to know her orientation. Puberty has only recently onset (or may not have, depending on individual) and before puberty, mentioning the opposite sex produces "yukk!" statements.

Supposedly in the old west, marriages could happen at 14. But 12 is still pre-teen. Too young to be sure yet.
You're basing this on scientific findings? Or your own assumptions?

     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Sep 8, 2017, 04:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is a very self-serving way to describe someone indicting the church's position on homosexuality... in church.

Churches are metaphorically considered houses into which one is invited. I take no issue with someone who feels the household should be castigated, however the proper course of action for that person is to decline the invitation.
OK but that girl was a member of the church, likely born into it and she is trying to change the churches position. I guess religions don't have to have any respect for democracy or free speech though.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 8, 2017, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You're basing this on scientific findings? Or your own assumptions?

A+ gif choice
     
reader50
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Sep 8, 2017, 06:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You're basing this on scientific findings? Or your own assumptions?
My own assumptions, which are valuable to me. I certainly have not recently observed numerous preteens to get a statistically valid sample size. Have not surveyed them about sex orientation & opinions, nor kept methodical notes on their responses.

btw, if you wish to collect scientific statistics locally, I suggest bringing a lawyer along. Possibly a bodyguard too. For reasons of personal safety and limited contingency fees, let's stick with my assumptions. Those are free.
     
subego
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Sep 8, 2017, 06:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I guess religions don't have to have any respect for democracy or free speech though.
If respect for free speech necessitates inviting castigation, then most others don't have respect for it either.
     
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Sep 8, 2017, 07:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Some very good points
Perhaps I should have been more clear. I did not have a 'on the road to Damascus' moment, abandoning my faith was a process over years, with much reflection, study, and thought. I grew up in a very religious home, majored in religion at college, and was a regular church-goer for most of my life. Perhaps a thread on the subject of conversions in either direction would be a more appropriate place to discuss my process in detail.
     
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Sep 9, 2017, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If respect for free speech necessitates inviting castigation, then most others don't have respect for it either.
A young girl telling you she's gay and she hopes you all can find it in your hearts to be cool with that is hardly castigation.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Sep 9, 2017, 02:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Dislike >< HATE
disapprove >< Hate.

The word Hate is overused and poorly used. I see it mostly used by intellectually lazy, and those with poor vocabularies. It gets really old, really fast.
Using the word hate doesn't sit right when you are a complicit perpetrator of it. People on the receiving end feel hated.
Your dislike or disapproval gets translated into legislation which often restricts the freedoms of others when they don't really effect you.
Majority organised "dislike" that strips you of rights and freedoms feels like hate.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 9, 2017, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
A young girl telling you she's gay and she hopes you all can find it in your hearts to be cool with that is hardly castigation.
Insistence the church drop its prohibition on gay marriage goes well beyond "find it in your hearts to be cool".
     
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Sep 9, 2017, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Insistence the church drop its prohibition on gay marriage goes well beyond "find it in your hearts to be cool".
She said she hoped to be married one day, thats hardly insistent. Surely this is exactly the textbook way someone should try to effect change?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 02:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
She said she hoped to be married one day, thats hardly insistent. Surely this is exactly the textbook way someone should try to effect change?
This is fair. That was a poor word choice on my part.

The point I'm trying to get across is her hope for the future would entail a full-blown schism. Expressing said hope in church is "shots fired", no?
     
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Sep 10, 2017, 03:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
12 seems too young to know her orientation. Puberty has only recently onset (or may not have, depending on individual) and before puberty, mentioning the opposite sex produces "yukk!" statements.
I knew I was straight since I was 5 or 6 when I started borrowing my father's Playboys, and while there are late bloomers, I reckon most people know their sexual preferences at the onset of puberty. But be that as it may, let's say the girl may change her mind. What is the harm in making that declaration before the congregation? She is not harming anyone, she just wants to be accepted by her community.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If respect for free speech necessitates inviting castigation, then most others don't have respect for it either.
But in the context of this teen, I doubt that this was what she had in mind. Her coming out gives 5-10 % of mormons (who, statistically, are just as gay as the rest of us) visibility. I know so many people who, because they don't haven't met out and about gays that they don't exist. The husband of a good friend of mine seriously argued that in his 5,000 souls village there wasn't a single gay person. He had to broaden his horizon a little, because his sister-in-law is lesbian.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Paco500
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Sep 10, 2017, 04:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is fair. That was a poor word choice on my part.

The point I'm trying to get across is her hope for the future would entail a full-blown schism. Expressing said hope in church is "shots fired", no?
I'm not sure if it necessarily would. Don't forget, the LDS have dropped polygamy and institutional racism from their doctrine and remained mostly in tact. The church has already shown it has the capacity to change on some pretty big issues.
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 05:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
But in the context of this teen, I doubt that this was what she had in mind. Her coming out gives 5-10 % of mormons (who, statistically, are just as gay as the rest of us) visibility. I know so many people who, because they don't haven't met out and about gays that they don't exist. The husband of a good friend of mine seriously argued that in his 5,000 souls village there wasn't a single gay person. He had to broaden his horizon a little, because his sister-in-law is lesbian.
This specific tangent is about her bringing up marriage.

I agree it's unlikely her intent was to castigate the church, and for me, this is going to be the key consideration as to whether I assess blame, but despite her lack of intent, by bringing up marriage, that's what she did.
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 05:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
I'm not sure if it necessarily would. Don't forget, the LDS have dropped polygamy and institutional racism from their doctrine and remained mostly in tact. The church has already shown it has the capacity to change on some pretty big issues.
I get the vibe Mormons find gay marriage particularly galling.

It might be related to them dropping polygamy against their will, though I admit I'm no expert, and the connection dawned on me mere moments ago.
     
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Sep 10, 2017, 07:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is fair. That was a poor word choice on my part.

The point I'm trying to get across is her hope for the future would entail a full-blown schism. Expressing said hope in church is "shots fired", no?
Can you think of a gentler way to try to change it? You need an audience or you're wasting your time.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Sep 10, 2017, 07:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I get the vibe Mormons find gay marriage particularly galling.

It might be related to them dropping polygamy against their will, though I admit I'm no expert, and the connection dawned on me mere moments ago.
Maybe if they were allowed to practice gay polygamous marriage they'd be cool with it?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 10, 2017, 07:49 AM
 
I find it depressing that anybody still cares, let along that it's worth a news story.

The world is a far cry from where we really should be in 2017. And heading straight back to 1817, except with cellphones.
     
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Sep 10, 2017, 02:31 PM
 
I think coming out in a public setting like this is great. It shouldn't matter, but it does, so until it really doesn't matter we should encourage comfort in doing so and providing as much support as possible.

I'm sorry religious people this might offend, but your condemnation of homosexuality is straight up obsolete, backwards, and wrong in my view. The funny thing to me is, this condemnation hurts religion more than it helps it. As science continues to improve, evolve, and is able to understand more and more of the universe it could be seen as a complete alternative to religion since it explains more about a condition that many people are certain they were born with more than an ancient text that says that they are sinners for being who and what they are.
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
but your condemnation of homosexuality is straight up obsolete, backwards, and wrong in my view.
I'll trot out the same argument I always do when this comes up.

Secular humanism's great failure is it hasn't come up with a with a way (other than communism) for people to live in the middle of ****ing nowhere and make food for all of our enlightened asses in the city.

Religion is what keeps it together, and it's why we get to eat.
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2017, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Maybe if they were allowed to practice gay polygamous marriage they'd be cool with it?
As an aside, polygamy should be legal despite the unsavory dynamic which often follows it.
     
 
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