[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
What made you so sure that it wasn't what God planned for man? Did God tell you that?

Maybe because God didn't make another man to be Adam's companion? Or maybe the fact that God said that homosexual sex was a sin?

So yes, God DID tell me that.

[Nicko]

Hmmmm how about,

woman and woman?

or..... man + man + woman?

or my favorite, woman + man + woman?

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ys, I am sure you are much smarter.

Yeah i guess? It's like we can genetically modify a bunch of mice such that it would do things we expected, put them in a box. And then we make up certain rules, if they break those rules, those are punished. You tell them exactly what not to do to avoid punishment, however you give them free will. You've planned none of them to break any rules, At the same time, you expect some of them to do so.

You're one of those sorry mice, aren't you?

No, I think he expected that, hence free will.

O yeah? I used that in my little metaphor.

And that is ok. That wasn't what God planned for man. Man made those choices on his own. Man choose this world to be the world of man. It was a world of God.

Obviously your God didn't plan very well. It's like he planned a big project with tons of variables?

Wait, you said he expected everything right? So there is no variables. He must have planned the scenario of a gay populace.

This is so contradictive.

[qnxde]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zimphire:

Yes, I believe I get it.
[/b] Why shouldn't he? He didn't intend for man to be with man. Doing that is rebelling against God. Rebelling against God is a sin.
[/b] No, anything rebelling against God is a sin. Jesus came and replaced the sacrificial and dietary laws, not the spiritual/moral laws.
[/b]

So anything against God is a sin? What about medicine? What about single parent families? IVF? IVF recepients were obviously not created to have children, so this treatment would be going against God's plan. Where does it end?

[boots]

Wow. things kind of exploded after I went to the driving range last night.

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
Sorry, I just don't buy this. I think you are looking at this through a 21st century lens - everything is political. There were political implications but that was in no way the focus of what he did.

Point taken. While I do think you have a valid point, I think you missed part of what I was saying. I don't think the Gospels focus on the politics. I don't think the authors wanted that, and I'm kinda glad they didn't. With that in mind, however, there are some points that help show that it wasn't as simple as portrayed. That's fine, because we don't want the message to be diluted with political wrangling. So, I'll try to clarify my view a little more.

I am not saying that the Jews didn't have a big hand in what transpired. I'm trying to say that Rome did also. Politics is timeless. Especially in Rome at the time, politics were pretty intense.

A couple of odd things from the accounts we have in the synoptics:

1) "King of the Jews" was inscribed on the cross. Why? Would the Jews have put it there? Probably not. The execution was Roman. If this was their Messiah, it would have been an incredibly offensive thing to have their collective noses rubbed in.

2) The Mark account of the Sanhedrin trial is just plain odd. First, it would have convened at night. Not very likely from what we know about the Sanhedrin. Second, it would have convened on passover, which would have been illegial by it's own laws. The account of Jesus trial is just not right. There may have been a trial, I don't know, and we probably never will, but it couldn't have happened as Mark describes. The chronology is wrong.

[note: To Mark, I don't think the details of this mattered. He was not really concerned with chronology. His agenda was different.]

3) While there was a prohibition on capital punishment outside of the Roman courts (as confirmed by other historical texts), there are a number of example where this was ignored. In the text, we have at least two: The stoning of Stephen (the first marter), and the stoning of the adultress. Other texts have accounts as well.

So, where does this lead my thoughts? The Jewish priesthood wanted him gone, and the precipitating event was probably the "cleansing of the temple". They wanted the execution to be "ligitimate." They knew Pilate would be happy to get rid of him too (he didn't want any challenge to Roman authority, and he already had the Jewish authorities under his thumb), so they were confident that they could take it to the Roman courts.

Upshot: It wasn't just the Jews. Rome was complicit as well. That is my argument.


Here's a book recommendation: The Gospels and Jesus by G. Stantan. It is a pretty good comparative look at the 4 gospels, with pretty good textual analysis.

Oh, and this has been a nice discussion. Thanks to both Ben and Roger (others too). I don't ask that you agree with my conclusions, I only ask that you don't immediately dismiss my arguments because you disagree. As you can see, I've thought about this a lot, and am still struggling with a lot of the text.

I wish we could keep the the three flamers on track, though. It was kind of irritating to have to sift through the last page-and-a-half of trash.

[Cipher13]

He sewed his eyes shut
Because he is afraid to see
He tries to tell me
What I put inside of me
He's got the answers
To ease my curiosity
He dreamed a god up
And called it Christianity

God is dead
And no one cares
If there is a hell
I'll see you there

He flexed his muscles
To keep his flock of sheep in line
He made a virus
That would kill off all the swine
His perfect kingdom
Of killing, suffering and pain
Demands devotion
Attrocities done in his name

God is dead
And no one cares
If there is a hell
I'll see you there

Your god is dead
And no one cares
If there is a hell
I'll see you there

God is dead
And no one cares
If there is a hell
I'll see you there - your God is dead
God is dead - and no one cares
And no one cares - drowning in his own hypocrisy
If there is a hell - I'll see you
I'll see you there - see you

NIN - Heresy

It had to be posted. Carry on.

[boots]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
According to the New Testament account, I think roger_ramjet is very correct in his assertion.

Jesus was a threat to Jewish religious culture, not to Rome. After all, Pilot couldn't find fault with him. It was only at the insistance of the Pharisees that Jesus was executed.

(Now, I know many people take issue with the New Testament account which is why I mention that. I know several "scholars" who think the New Testament account is entirely constructed to villify Jews with respect to Jesus.)

Most of the "scholars" I've read don't claim it was constructed to villify the Jews, although I am aware of those writings. The focus / agenda of the texts (different for each of the four gospels) was not about the politics. As I said above, that would probably have diluted the message too much. I think there are hints in the text, however, that hint at the fact that more was going on that what we have in the text. The sholarly work I am most familiar with simply points out that there are some problems with the accounts as given. It was a much more complex issue than we are led to believe by the authors.

I think I should make another point here, and that is about the authority of scripture. Just because one finds problems in the text does not mean that the text isn't "right." I really don't think that, and I don't want to give that impression. It just becomes more important to find out what the text really says. I think the bulk message of the text is pretty concrete: We (Christians) are an Easter people. And through the death and ressurection, we have been given the hope of a closer relationship with our God.

The rest is detail. But that detail seems to provide a basis for some of our quirkier beliefs/actions. Sometimes it becomes a driving doctrin on its own. For example, the Catholic church had anti-semitic policies based on the "It was the Jews and Only the Jews who were responsible" reading. Recently, they changed thier teachings on this to incorporate much of the stuff I have been arguing. That has the effect of saying "Yeah, they were probably a major player, but the situation isn't as clear, so this can't be used as a basis for anti-semitism." It can make a big difference in world-view. I think that is why you see such fragmentation in the christian church.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by sealobo:
Yeah i guess? It's like we can genetically modify a bunch of mice such that it would do things we expected, put them in a box. And then we make up certain rules, if they break those rules, those are punished. You tell them exactly what not to do to avoid punishment, however you give them free will. You've planned none of them to break any rules, At the same time, you expect some of them to do so.

You're one of those sorry mice, aren't you?

p

That was a HORRIBLE, I repeat HORRIBLE example. Yeah by all means lets compare humans that have reason and morals and such with mice that don't.

Obviously your God didn't plan very well. It's like he planned a big project with tons of variables?

Wait, you said he expected everything right? So there is no variables. He must have planned the scenario of a gay populace.

This is so contradictive.

Nope, he planned on everything being perfect. Adam and Eve screwed that up, hence came the variables. God didn't introduce them. Sin did. Blame it on man.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by qnxde:

So anything against God is a sin? What about medicine? What about single parent families? IVF? IVF recepients were obviously not created to have children, so this treatment would be going against God's plan. Where does it end?

Yeah because God said that we weren't supposed to use Medicine. In what Bible did you read that one from? God never said anything about single parents either. Except that a man that took a women into his home and married her that already had a kid, was looked good upon.

Originally posted by Cipher13:
NIN - Heresy

It had to be posted. Carry on.

I love it when people post lyrics wrote by pretentious drugged out rock staaaaaaaaaaaws.

Trent Rexnor? He is one step away from being as silly as Manson.

Don't get me wrong, he music is .. neat. But I would take his rock star lyrics with a grain of salt.

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
That was a HORRIBLE, I repeat HORRIBLE example. Yeah by all means lets compare humans that have reason and morals and such with mice that don't.

That is not a horrible example by all means. It's just a relative measure. God to human is like human to mice, intelligent-wise if you will. If you can't understand this simple idea then you really need some help from your mighty God.

My horrible example is valid in terms of logic, just substitude the mice/you with you/God.

Nope, he planned on everything being perfect. Adam and Eve screwed that up, hence came the variables. God didn't introduce them. Sin did. Blame it on man.

What do you mean by he planned on everything being perfect? Perfect means everything should run as planned perfectly. Adam & Eve were able to screw it up that means the plan was not perfect at all. If God were that all-powerful, sin wouldn't stand a chance.

So in conclusion: either God planned all the senarios (for example, a condemned gay populace) or; God is dumb because he can't plan logically even with his mighty power. Pick one.

{edit} I forgot about the 3rd choice: Your God does not exist. But well i guess you wouldn't even think about this one... cuz... if i were you, i would feel so dumb too that I've had spent all these years believing in some big time popular b.s.

[Sealobo]

Human is just a type of life form on earth. And like all other life forms, we are supposed to be submissive to a higher rank in the food chain. If I were born in some small town in the middle of somewhere and since i were born people around me kept feeding me the idea of God and read me the bible, i guess i would have joined the gang too. I mean, come on... God is all that. There is no way you can get away with any idea of your own, you can only be submissive and follow the rules. If you don't, you ****ing go to hell when you died... wow.

There is no real teaching in the bible, it just tells us what to do and what not. Sometimes they don't make sense. For example, if you idolize someone other than God then you're in deep ****. That's really good public relatioship. it seems obvious to me that God is working on two fronts: First, there are so much love in God, unlimited. Come get some, follow the rules and you're part of us. Sounds like a deal. Second, if you don't do what i say then you're screwed. Hard and soft coming together this is really a good strategy. Heaven and Hell... what are you gonna choose if you had to huh?

I have nothing against religious people. In fact, i feel sorry for them because they're stuck in something for their whole lives without really knowing what's going on like the rest of us. The longer they're believers, more bet they put on the table and they couldn't possibly let go again.

[Zimphire]

That is not a horrible example by all means. It's just a relative measure. God to human is like human to mice, intelligent-wise if you will. If you can't understand this simple idea then you really need some help from your mighty God.

No, comparing mice to humans is where your flaw is. Mice have no knowledge of morals or right or wrong. Just instinct.

My horrible example is valid in terms of logic, just substitude the mice/you with you/God.

And it was a bad example.

What do you mean by he planned on everything being perfect? Perfect means everything should run as planned perfectly . Adam & Eve were able to screw it up that means the plan was not perfect at all. If God were that all-powerful, sin wouldn't stand a chance.

No everything was perfect if one rule was followed. Man made the choice to go against that rule, and there came in imperfection and sin. God didn't create that, man did.

So in conclusion: either God planned all the senarios (for example, a condemned gay populace) or; God is dumb because he can't plan logically even with his mighty power. Pick one.

None of the above, close minded one.

{edit} I forgot about the 3rd choice: Your God does not exist. But well i guess you wouldn't even think about this one... cuz... if i were you, i would feel so dumb too that I've had spent all these years believing in some big time popular b.s.

Thanks for your trollish condescending comments though. Much appreciated.

I have nothing against religious people. In fact, i feel sorry for them because they're stuck in something for their whole lives without really knowing what's going on like the rest of us. The longer they're believers, more bet they put on the table and they couldn't possibly let go again.

Well I was just like the "rest of us" before I was a Christian. I know what it is like. I was all about the word and it's fake religions and pleasures. I wouldn't want it back in a heartbeat. I feel sorry for people who refuse to see the light.

[philzilla]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I feel sorry for people who refuse to see the light.

how wonderfully arrogant of you.

[boots]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I feel sorry for people who refuse to see the light.

Same can be said for those blinded by the light.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by philzilla:
how wonderfully arrogant of you.

Well it's a good thing I was obviously being sarcastic, hence the

Originally posted by boots:
Same can be said for those blinded by the light.

Naw, the light lets me see clearly. Removes the fog.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Maybe because God didn't make another man to be Adam's companion? Or maybe the fact that God said that homosexual sex was a sin?

So yes, God DID tell me that.

Told you through what? Bible?

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Man is Zimph is "normal" we are really screwed.

I think I rather take my chances the way I am now rather being normal like him.

[imaxxedout]

Your god is dead
And no one cares
If there is a hell
I'll see you there


Woo woo.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
Man is Zimph is "normal" we are really screwed.

I think I rather take my chances the way I am now rather being normal like him.

How subjective.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by imaxxedout:
Your god is dead
And no one cares
If there is a hell
I'll see you there


Woo woo.

That about sums it up for me.

[Zimphire]

BOW DOWN TO MY PRETENTIOUS ROCK STAR LYRICS!!!

[boots]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Naw, the light lets me see clearly. Removes the fog.

Low beams work better in the fog than high beams.

[philzilla]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
LA LA LA!!! I AM NOT LISTENING!!! I DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, SO I'LL MAKE FUN OF YOUR MUSIC!!!

that's better

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by philzilla:
that's better

Can you make a post without lame personal attacks?

I never said anything even close.

Come on phil, grow up.

[andi*pandi]

Hey, I like Phil's fake quotes. They're like reading between the lines... so interpretive.

Parts of this thread...so entertaining. Parts... seem set on auto-cycle. So, some random thoughts to stir it up a little, and give Zim and Solo new things to argue about.

God, or the concept therein, isn't offensive to me. Benevolent higher being, eternal life, salvation, all good. God or Goddess, whatever. It's what men do in the name of God that bugs me. Like, the Crusades. <acknowledge that I am digging in areas I don't know about and could be landmined> That was just trouble. Men, and their arrogance, thinking they could take over the middle east, as if they had more right to it than others. <insert modern-day subtext here> Murder in the name of God. If I murder you in the name of God, am I more righteous than if you murder me in the name of Allah?

Oh no.... what have I done? (Again?)

teehee.

And I still think Peter didn't have a vision from God saying it was ok to eat pork... I bet ol' Pete had a craving for some BBQ and thought, heck, new religion... why not toss out that ol' rule? And since I get to write the Gospel, I'll just slip that in and no one will know. He would have slipped in some other more extreme "visions" but figured the others would call him on it. And then who would come to his BBQ?

It's odd, but after 12 years of CCD and religious classes, I recall the JCS soundtrack better than the Bible. Sad, really.

An old sig I used to use:

But what is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We've all got truths... Are mine the same as yours? -Pilate, JCS

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by andi*pandi:
Hey, I like Phil's fake quotes. They're like reading between the lines... so interpretive.

Actually they are pretty subjective and dishonest. Obviously I have read every post I have responded to. It's the insecurity in people that makes them think, just because they make statements I don't agree with, that for some reason, I'm just must not be "listening", because they can never be wrong.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Actually they are pretty subjective and dishonest. Obviously I have read every post I have responded to. It's the insecurity in people that makes them think, just because they make statements I don't agree with, that for some reason, I'm just must not be "listening", because they can never be wrong.

I've never seen you admit that you made a mistake here before. When someone critize you, you'll continue adding new stuffs until they got tired then you are the WINNER!

Yeah yeah, you are 100% right and we are 0% right as always

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
I've never seen you admit that you made a mistake here before. When someone critize you, you'll continue adding new stuffs until they got tired then you are the WINNER!

Yeah yeah, you are 100% right and we are 0% right as always

Just because you have never seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. MANY times I have admitted I was wrong, and or apologized if I was stating wrong facts. You are again, making things up.

Fact is Adam, I usually don't argue things I don't know about, or I am not sure of. If you noticed, there are only a few things I argue about. It just so happens people like starting threads like this for some reason to stir crap. Ever see me start a thread like this?

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Just because you have never seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

I apologize for being blind. Next time, I'll watch you like an Eagle.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
MANY times I have admitted I was wrong, and or apologized if I was stating wrong facts.

I'm proud of you. Not many people are like you.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
You are again, making things up.

Yep, you are right. I apologize for adding too much facts.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Fact is Adam, I usually don't argue things I don't know about, or I am not sure of.

I understand your point but there are nothing wrong with partipicating in a threads that you are not sure of. You could ask some questions and learn some from it. I haven't seen you ask any serious questions around here. Then again, I may be blind as you claim that I am.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
If you noticed, there are only a few things I argue about. It just so happens people like starting threads like this for some reason to stir crap.

So, SuperChi[c]ken is starting this thread to stir crap? Hmm, I don't think so.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ever see me start a thread like this?

Basically, you own most of the threads. You must have the last words on everything. You definitely own this thread. You have far more posts in here than anyone else.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Adam, grow up.

I apologize. I should look up to you because you are mature (no kidding)

[boots]

Originally posted by andi*pandi:

And I still think Peter didn't have a vision from God saying it was ok to eat pork... I bet ol' Pete had a craving for some BBQ and thought, heck, new religion... why not toss out that ol' rule? And since I get to write the Gospel, I'll just slip that in and no one will know. He would have slipped in some other more extreme "visions" but figured the others would call him on it. And then who would come to his BBQ?

It's odd, but after 12 years of CCD and religious classes, I recall the JCS soundtrack better than the Bible. Sad, really.

I knew there was a good reason liked you.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

So how are all things possible through Christ? We he co-sign my loan application or help my get that sports car I want?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by I Bent My Wookiee:
So how are all things possible through Christ? We he co-sign my loan application or help my get that sports car I want?

erm....don't think so. He's still waiting for you to pay back that 10 bucks you borrowed last month.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
erm....don't think so. He's still waiting for you to pay back that 10 bucks you borrowed last month.

So Jesus allowed people to use 10 bucks to buy condoms and use it with similar sex?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
So Jesus allowed people to use 10 bucks to buy condoms and use it with similar sex?

I hope you're not trying to turn a light-hearted jest against me here....remember, I'm not the christian who is against homosexuals, my church has alternative lifestyle pastors. you might have me confused with someone else...

or



you were making a light hearted jest...in which case....teehee

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
I hope you're not trying to turn a light-hearted jest against me here....remember, I'm not the christian who is against homosexuals, my church has alternative lifestyle pastors. you might have me confused with someone else...

or

you were making a light hearted jest...in which case....teehee

Sorry if I sound serious. Wasn't meant for that to happen... I should have added a smiley though. I see no reason to dislike you since you know what you are talking about. I only wish Zimphire could learn a thing or two from you.

It was a lame joke to begin with anyway

[philzilla]

so. summing up:

the main reason people find God "offencive" is..?

anyone?

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by philzilla:
so. summing up:

the main reason people find God "offencive" is..?

anyone?

I think everyone agreed that they don't find God offensive but the Church and fanatic followers.

[undotwa]

Socially Awkard Solo:

Being gay is a gift from God.

You are one of God's creations, so how could any Christian hate you? Your gayness is part of God's creation, how could any Christian hate your gayness. If they do show hate towards you because of your sexuallity or anything you have done wrong, well then they are not Christian, because that is not Christian teaching.

The only problem is, is that Christians teach that the sexual act is a sacred gift from God reserved for a married man and woman. Many Christians break that by participating in premarital sex, however it is not up to ANY Christian to judge you, afterall it is up to sinless man to cast the first stone.

What gets said in the Bible isn't necessarily Catholic or any Christian teaching. Because the Bible was written when disturbing (stoning, flogging etc.) Pagan practices were practised widely accepted and practiced. Even some evidence of this is in the New Testament. You have to understand this point.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Well thank you.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
I think everyone agreed that they don't find God offensive but the Church and fanatic followers.

The Church, at least the Catholic church's official line is to be compassionate towards all human beings.

That has been the official line since it's been created. However we have had some bad times when we had some corrupt Popes etc. however none of the actual teachings were changed as a result of this.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by undotwa:
The Church, at least the Catholic church's official line is to be compassionate towards all human beings.

That has been the official line since it's been created. However we have had some bad times when we had some corrupt Popes etc. however none of the actual teachings were changed as a result of this.

Well somewhere along the line Hate Mongering came into the picture.

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
No, comparing mice to humans is where your flaw is. Mice have no knowledge of morals or right or wrong. Just instinct.

There is no flaw. Like i said, it's a relative measure! It's like saying the logic of 2*3=6 is comparable to 6*9=54. The numbers are not the same but they work in the exact same way. Can't you get this simple idea?

Of course you don't feel right being compared to mice. But hey, pull yourself back from the big picture a little bit and get some perspective, and you can see that you are just a sorry mice in your God's realm.

And it was a bad example.

Only because you didn't get it.

No everything was perfect if one rule was followed. Man made the choice to go against that rule, and there came in imperfection and sin. God didn't create that, man did.

HAHA~! God created man entirely, so God allowed error to happen because man apparently was not as smart as God himself. When you said God didn't create that, man did; it's like saying i gave a gun to a kid and he started shooting around and that's entirely not my fault, because that's not what i planned.

None of the above, close minded one.

Thanks for your trollish condescending comments though. Much appreciated.

I feel sorry for you because you are the one who refused to see the light. Wait, actually there is no light, just your imagination.

And obviously you have nothing much to say upon my arguement excepted for the meaningless protest of disbelief.

Well I was just like the "rest of us" before I was a Christian. I know what it is like. I was all about the word and it's fake religions and pleasures. I wouldn't want it back in a heartbeat. I feel sorry for people who refuse to see the light.

This is one of the prime examples why so many people think that you're an idiot. And don't say that i am the only one, because that is so not true.

Anyway, stick with your God for the rest of your life. it's funny you will probably end up in void and it's gonna be like "OMGWTFIWAI".

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by I Bent My Wookiee:
So how are all things possible through Christ? We he co-sign my loan application or help my get that sports car I want?

When you got something by hardwork, God take some credit and you thank him. When **** happens in your life, God tells you that "**** happens".

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by sealobo:
When you got something by hardwork, God take some credit and you thank him. When **** happens in your life, God tells you that "**** happens".

no offense here, but being a person who endured his own share of hardship, your view of the religious response to hardship is simplistic, and does little justice to the real pain and grief people feel in their lives.

I realize your point was sarcastic, but may I humbly suggest that faith for many is something which gets them through hardship in a very real and tangible way. The way you have portrayed it is as if a person of faith is betrayed by hardship or left bereft because of it. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is the community of faith that provides a backdrop of support and balm during the hardest periods of misfortune.

Just wanted to share that.

other than that..please continue.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by sealobo:
Anyway, stick with your God for the rest of your life. it's funny you will probably end up in void and it's gonna be like "OMGWTFIWAI".

perhaps.

there are several possible outcomes:

1. as you say, there may be nothing beyond this life but a void.
2. There may be, as I believe, a life after this one where what we accomplish, how we live will be taken into account.
3. There may be a third unknown possiblity.

If #3, we will both be surprised, but at least I will have already considered that possiblity.

If #2, then YOU will be very, very surprised.

If #1, then there is a void, and whether I have spent my life based on my belief or you have based your life on yours, it won't matter, and we won't have consciousness to know the difference. Neither YOU nor I will be surprised, because neither you nor I will BE. You will have been robbed of your opportunity to gloat.
Therefore, the ONLY thing our life was worth was how we lived it while alive. If so, then I will still feel as if living a life of faith is what I wished to do, even if there is no reward or afterlife....because to me its the right thing to do.

[JayTi]

I find the belief in God offensive. People deny themselves so many pleasures in life for something they think this God character will appreciate. God hasn't done **** for me, and I havn't done **** for him, thats our relationship. I earn my keep, he stays out of my life, I have no real "belief" Maybe I've experienced God a few times, like how I was in a car accident and I wasn't injured, or how I've come quite close to death a few times but escaped it.

Maybe I'll rethink the above when demons are torturing my soul in a giant couldron pot of fire*





No, I'll have my pork now.

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
no offense here, but being a person who endured his own share of hardship, your view of the religious response to hardship is simplistic, and does little justice to the real pain and grief people feel in their lives.

I realize your point was sarcastic, but may I humbly suggest that faith for many is something which gets them through hardship in a very real and tangible way. The way you have portrayed it is as if a person of faith is betrayed by hardship or left bereft because of it. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is the community of faith that provides a backdrop of support and balm during the hardest periods of misfortune.

Just wanted to share that.

other than that..please continue.

I total agree with your points. The faith in the believers' heart help them through hardships, make them stronger because they believe that they're not battling alone.

My focal point was actually the origin of these hardships, and that's one huge question to be discuessed.

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
perhaps.

there are several possible outcomes:

1. as you say, there may be nothing beyond this life but a void.
2. There may be, as I believe, a life after this one where what we accomplish, how we live will be taken into account.
3. There may be a third unknown possiblity.

I respect your choice. Again i have nothing against religion. In fact my gf is a Christian.

You're right, you have nothing to lose by picking option #2. Religion is all about faith. However, you're missing something else; how we live will be taken into account might also be true even if your God does not exist. Who knows what's it gonna be? Maybe Christian is inferior by the standard in afterlife? Sounds like a horrible idea but it's not impossible.

Anyway, peace.

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by JayTi:
I find the belief in God offensive. People deny themselves so many pleasures in life for something they think this God character will appreciate.

Actually, some people pleasure themselves just by believing that God is here with them. It's just a way of life. It's ok if you don't feel like it because you don't get it.

Don't worry, many people don't get it... I don't get it either.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by sealobo:
I respect your choice. Again i have nothing against religion. In fact my gf is a Christian.

You're right, you have nothing to lose by picking option #2. Religion is all about faith. However, you're missing something else; how we live will be taken into account might also be true even if your God does not exist. Who knows what's it gonna be? Maybe Christian is inferior by the standard in afterlife? Sounds like a horrible idea but it's not impossible.

Anyway, peace.

well, actually, that possibility is still contained in #2, or perhaps bleeds over into #3, so I haven't missed it.
Believe me, I have had to face the real possiblity of my certain death, so I doubt there's any possible permutation of the afterlife I have not contemplated, being a cancer survivor.

Still, even if there is no God, or Jesus, I still find the values of the christian life FOR ME to be the closest thing to how I feel a good life should be lived. I would not be disappointed in myself, regardless of the nature of the afterlife (if any) if I lived my life as close to those ideals as possible.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by sealobo:
Actually, some people pleasure themselves just by believing that God is here with them.

Um... somehow I get the feeling that's not the phrasing you wanted to use...

It's just a way of life. It's ok if you don't feel like it because you don't get it.

Don't worry, many people don't get it... I don't get it either.

You're talking about people "denying themselves pleasures". But I ask you a question: these pleasures you speak of, do they honestly make you happy? I mean real happiness, not a quick bit of gratification and then it's off to seek the next thrill.

You say that Christians deny themselves pleasure. I don't think so. We just pursue something deeper than a moment's pleasant experience, and in doing so, cut out those things which ultimately hinder that goal. God doesn't really have a whole lot to do with that aspect of Christianity, except to lay out an occasional hint on how to achieve that.