[OAW]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants

So? Whatever. I can find all kinds of new holiday dessert recipes for this Christmas too, from every news outlet, but that doesn't mean fig pudding is part of the national conversation, does it?

You might actually have some semblance of a point if it weren't for this which I already said ...

Originally Posted by OAW

This Google search on "black on black crime" that lists national media from across the political spectrum like Real Clear Politics, AOL, Slate, Huffington Post, The Nation Magazine, The Atlantic, National Review, The Washington Post, The Blaze, World Net Daily, Christian Science Monitor, The New York Post, etc. .... on just the first few search result pages alone ... must be some sort of mass hallucination for anyone who clicks the link.

So it would seem your habit of simply ignoring evidence that contradicts you when it is right there in black and white for all to see continues. Unless, of course, you can explain how the national media discussing the specific "Black on Black Crime" topic you are so fixated on does NOT make it part of the "national conversation"? How exactly is that more analogous to "holiday dessert recipes" in general than it is to "fig pudding" in particular?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants

BTW, whenever you post egotistical images like that, it's a clear sign that whatever you said is about to backfire. It's seriously uncanny

There's nothing backfiring at all. I'm going to say this "one mo' gin" and then leave you to your foolishness. Try to pay attention because this is important.

I'm not contending with your figures.

What I'm saying is that % of MURDER VICTIMS and/or % of MURDER OFFENDERS is one thing. % of BLACK PEOPLE is quite another. And when you twist your lips to start talking about the black COMMUNITY and violent crime ... simple logic, basic arithmetic, and common sense dictates that the latter provides a more appropriate perspective.

Unless, of course, you think it would be appropriate to extrapolate this and apply it to the US men in general.

Every American Killed by Lightning So Far in 2014 Has Been Male

Now run along ....

OAW

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OAW 

You might actually have some semblance of a point if it weren't for this which I already said ...

So it would seem your habit of simply ignoring evidence that contradicts you when it is right there in black and white for all to see continues. Unless, of course, you can explain how the national media discussing the specific "Black on Black Crime" topic you are so fixated on does NOT make it part of the "national conversation"? How exactly is that more analogous to "holiday dessert recipes" in general than it is to "fig pudding" in particular?

It isn't. It isn't discussed on national news, or in national papers, or on talk shows, it's actively avoided, despite being the #1 cause of death for black men 18-24 (by a wide margin).

There's nothing backfiring at all. I'm going to say this "one mo' gin" and then leave you to your foolishness. Try to pay attention because this is important.

I'm not contending with your figures.

What I'm saying is that % of MURDER VICTIMS and/or % of MURDER OFFENDERS is one thing. % of BLACK PEOPLE is quite another. And when you twist your lips to start talking about the black COMMUNITY and violent crime ... simple logic, basic arithmetic, and common sense dictates that the latter provides a more appropriate perspective.

Unless, of course, you think it would be appropriate to extrapolate this and apply it to the US men in general.

Every American Killed by Lightning So Far in 2014 Has Been Male

Now run along ....

Run along? Oh, I get it, I'm the little kid. How cute. That's so clever!

It's a black community issue, your kids (specifically the males) are f*cked up. I'm not talking about other demographics within the AA community, I'm talking about young "men" (who apparently don't understand the term) who are killing each other at a rate higher than every region or country in the world. At the height of the war in the Congo the rate peaked at 124 /100k, young black men in the US aren't far behind that.

Cops are killing young AA males in altercations while that same group is killing itself at a shocking rate, there's commonality there and something needs to be done to reign in the mayhem and bloodlust.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

It's a black community issue, your kids (specifically the males) are f*cked up.

I'm tired of hearing this argument, it is bogus. Since I couldn't get through to Badkosh I'll try with you.

There is no black community, just as there is no white community. Do you think that black people get together and have meetings or something? A community implies some sense of organization, perhaps some leadership. If there are black communities shouldn't there be white ones as well? Where are these white communities? I've surely never been invited to these meetings.

There is a disproportionate amount of black crime for a variety of reasons, but not because of something wrong with AA racial heritage, or even AA culture (blaming the evil hip hop role models is the same sort of argument as blaming video games, no?) Violence is chosen out of desperation, desperation that is brought on as the result of a variety of factors. It's not like there is something embedded in AA culture that cultivates violence. If any other race had to deal with identical circumstances (including generations of slavery/oppression), they would have the same sort of disproportionate violence. In fact, I'm sure you could go to many parts of the world where you'll find disproportionate violence by other ethnic groups.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm tired of hearing this argument, it is bogus. Since I couldn't get through to Badkosh I'll try with you.

There is no black community, just as there is no white community. Do you think that black people get together and have meetings or something? A community implies some sense of organization, perhaps some leadership. If there are black communities shouldn't there be white ones as well? Where are these white communities? I've surely never been invited to these meetings.

There is a disproportionate amount of black crime for a variety of reasons, but not because of something wrong with AA racial heritage, or even AA culture (blaming the evil hip hop role models is the same sort of argument as blaming video games, no?) Violence is chosen out of desperation, desperation that is brought on as the result of a variety of factors. It's not like there is something embedded in AA culture that cultivates violence. If any other race had to deal with identical circumstances (including generations of slavery/oppression), they would have the same sort of disproportionate violence. In fact, I'm sure you could go to many parts of the world where you'll find disproportionate violence by other ethnic groups.

Okay, fine. Black people, your kids (specifically the males) are f*cked up. Better?

A demographic more violent than black males 18-24? No, not even close. Now what?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Okay, fine. Black people, your kids (specifically the males) are f*cked up. Better?

A demographic more violent than black males 18-24? No, not even close. Now what?

I still don't like this characterization. There are plenty of black people for whom violence is completely foreign to, I think the best way to characterize this is with liberal use of the term "disproportionate". I know it seems PC, but it also seems to be the most accurate and perhaps productive way of going at this. Often times these sort of discussions can't even get out of the starting gate due to language choices.

As far as the "now what", here are my thoughts:

- we simply need more time before prejudice of any kind (against races, gays, whatever) is a less common default. It wasn't *that* long ago when blacks had a pretty rough existence in America, it can take generations for this to go away. Hell, there are still blacks alive that could tell you stories that would make you shudder.

- we need Americans to continue to work on confronting the fact that prejudice exists and needs to be put in its place. We are not post-racist, or whatever that term is. Again, the same problem exists with being gay.

- America as a whole needs to deal with its growing poverty, starting yesterday. Before somebody like Badkosh jumps on my dick in thinking that this means handouts and trying to lift the bottom up, how about just dealing with the middle class? The prospects of climbing the social class ladder is inspiring, but less so when that ladder is seen as pretty fractured. We saw more evidence of its fractures just recently in this legislation written by CitiGroup that restores derivative trading. I know you believe that anybody can make it, and I agree with this premise, but you have to admit, there are some pretty ****ed up things that the extremely wealthy elite are getting away with, no? Even if you feel that this has zero impact on the ability for Joe Sixpack to make it, it creates a very damaged and tainted perspective that might make certain people question whether our society values having a healthy middle class that is given legal and fair opportunities for greater success.

- Decriminalization of pot would certainly help.

- Looking at law enforcement would certainly help. I'm empathetic to your viewpoints that we shouldn't shit on the cops, I know people that are cops and I can appreciate how this can be a tough job, particularly when quick decisions are necessary, but I think measures that establish greater accountability such as wearing cameras are at least worth looking at. A company that compiles to PCI regulations is not held accountable for credit card security, maybe this starts as being a legal/regulatory matter? There will always be bad apples, instead of trying to persuade public opinion of the moral standing of cops, maybe we should just acknowledge this fact and look at practical ways of tightening up how law enforcement is conducted.

- I think the bitches and hos part of hip hop will run its course perhaps like the gangsta thing seems to have, I'm not too worried about the image of hip hop. Fundamentally hip hop includes a form of social expression, humans will always find a way to express themselves and reflect their perceptions of reality, so I don't see the point in trying to tamp down the so-called hip hop culture. However, the whole materialistic side of our culture, the bling bling part of hip hop, and the domination of music by the major record labels is not a friend to art. There are no easy solutions here, but if there was a way to encourage black kids to get into music for the sake of being an artist rather than being a bad ass with bitches and hos, that might give a number of them some positive outlets, as sports are currently.

Just a bunch of random ideas.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Did they do it first? Don't make me turn this car around!

The point being, I hear very little about the former in comparison to the latter.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I'm just explaining how internal brutality in a community can, and does, affect external perception and reaction.

This is victim blaming.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I still don't like this characterization. There are plenty of black people for whom violence is completely foreign to, I think the best way to characterize this is with liberal use of the term "disproportionate". I know it seems PC, but it also seems to be the most accurate and perhaps productive way of going at this. Often times these sort of discussions can't even get out of the starting gate due to language choices.

As far as the "now what", here are my thoughts:

- we simply need more time before prejudice of any kind (against races, gays, whatever) is a less common default. It wasn't *that* long ago when blacks had a pretty rough existence in America, it can take generations for this to go away. Hell, there are still blacks alive that could tell you stories that would make you shudder.

- we need Americans to continue to work on confronting the fact that prejudice exists and needs to be put in its place. We are not post-racist, or whatever that term is. Again, the same problem exists with being gay.

- America as a whole needs to deal with its growing poverty, starting yesterday. Before somebody like Badkosh jumps on my dick in thinking that this means handouts and trying to lift the bottom up, how about just dealing with the middle class? The prospects of climbing the social class ladder is inspiring, but less so when that ladder is seen as pretty fractured. We saw more evidence of its fractures just recently in this legislation written by CitiGroup that restores derivative trading. I know you believe that anybody can make it, and I agree with this premise, but you have to admit, there are some pretty ****ed up things that the extremely wealthy elite are getting away with, no? Even if you feel that this has zero impact on the ability for Joe Sixpack to make it, it creates a very damaged and tainted perspective that might make certain people question whether our society values having a healthy middle class that is given legal and fair opportunities for greater success.

- Decriminalization of pot would certainly help.

- Looking at law enforcement would certainly help. I'm empathetic to your viewpoints that we shouldn't shit on the cops, I know people that are cops and I can appreciate how this can be a tough job, particularly when quick decisions are necessary, but I think measures that establish greater accountability such as wearing cameras are at least worth looking at. A company that compiles to PCI regulations is not held accountable for credit card security, maybe this starts as being a legal/regulatory matter? There will always be bad apples, instead of trying to persuade public opinion of the moral standing of cops, maybe we should just acknowledge this fact and look at practical ways of tightening up how law enforcement is conducted.

- I think the bitches and hos part of hip hop will run its course perhaps like the gangsta thing seems to have, I'm not too worried about the image of hip hop. Fundamentally hip hop includes a form of social expression, humans will always find a way to express themselves and reflect their perceptions of reality, so I don't see the point in trying to tamp down the so-called hip hop culture. However, the whole materialistic side of our culture, the bling bling part of hip hop, and the domination of music by the major record labels is not a friend to art. There are no easy solutions here, but if there was a way to encourage black kids to get into music for the sake of being an artist rather than being a bad ass with bitches and hos, that might give a number of them some positive outlets, as sports are currently.

Just a bunch of random ideas.

Poverty does need to be addressed, and the way to do that is stop institutionalizing it. Welfare should never be a way of life. Racism is still a very real problem, but now it's shifting to being equal on all sides. For several generations there's been a notion fostered that being an outlaw is good and hurting (and killing) others is a way to gain respect, in essence, fear = respect. The only way this can be fixed is through counseling, education, and nuking the environment. A single 26 y/o mother can't raise 6 kids, it's simply impossible, even if she knew how. Hell, that's a difficult task for two people without financial limitations.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

The point being, I hear very little about the former in comparison to the latter.

This is victim blaming.

It's reality, because the victims and perps are often one in the same. You can't watch a group of people, specifically those aggressive young men, tear each other apart without being affected by it. Current cops aren't looking at this from a historical perspective, they simply see what's going on now, and what's going on is young urban blacks are treating each other as subhuman.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

It's reality

It's an excuse and a way to deflect the blame from the people who are engaging in these actions. Rights aren't dependent on how someone treats themselves. Otherwise it'd be ok to abuse people with low self-esteem.

People are so desperate to absolve the police of their responsibilities. If treating people with a minimum amount of dignity and respect is too much to ask of people paid to serve and protect, blacks aren't the only ones who are ****ed.


Edit: Saying it's 'reality' is defeatist BS that I wouldn't expect from a self-made man.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

It's an excuse and a way to deflect the blame from the people who are engaging in these actions. Rights aren't dependent on how someone treats themselves. Otherwise it'd be ok to abuse people with low self-esteem.

People are so desperate to absolve the police of their responsibilities. If treating people with a minimum amount of dignity and respect is too much to ask of people paid to serve and protect, blacks aren't the only ones who are ****ed.


Edit: Saying it's 'reality' is defeatist BS that I wouldn't expect from a self-made man.

This isn't about people abusing themselves, it's about a group of people preying on and brutalizing each other. Again, not an individual, it's a whole demographic. This isn't about low self-esteem either, it's about arrogance and displaying overinflated egos, the idea that they're perfect just the way they are and that the world owes them something. They're entitled to: take what they want, hurt who they want, live off the system, and dismiss anything that doesn't directly benefit them. It's the "Get mine" generation come to full bloom, because society believed that handouts were a proper substitute for family and education.

Oh, and you implying that isolated incidents of police violence in some way equals the way the police in general behave towards blacks is stupid and BS I wouldn't expect from an educated man. I've already said the police who have gone too far need to be punished, like the one who cracked that woman's skull for kicking at him, what the hell else do you want?

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

People are so desperate to absolve the police of their responsibilities. If treating people with a minimum amount of dignity and respect is too much to ask of people paid to serve and protect, blacks aren't the only ones who are ****ed.

I don't think the issues are mutually exclusive, and it kind of seems like the debate is framed that way.

We can both demand more of our police and work towards solving violent crime problems among various socio-economic demographics.

Infact, I see solving either one as a good step towards solving the other, though progress will be tough on both fronts and not without controversy and missteps along the way.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

This isn't about people abusing themselves, it's about a group of people preying on and brutalizing each other. Again, not an individual, it's a whole demographic.

This bears repeating ....

Originally Posted by OAW

Per the US Census Bureau there are 5,083,765 black males age 10-24 in the US as of July 2013.

American FactFinder - Results

And per the FBI Crime Statistics there were 5,375 black murder offenders in 2013.

FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 3

Now this is intentionally not an "apples to apples" comparison. I'm including every single murder committed by a black person in 2013. Regardless of gender, age, or the race of the victim. So I'm being generous to you because if I narrowed it down to just black males aged 10-24 with black victims that number would be even smaller. So let's say for the sake of discussion that it was only black males aged 10-24 that committed those 5,375 murders.

This would mean that 0.00105729% of black males aged 10-24 committed a murder last year.

If 0.00105729% constitutes a "whole demographic" then you are quite frankly a f*cking idiot! Yeah I said it.

Real talk .... I've lost all patience with trying to reason with someone who INSISTS upon pure, unadulterated stupidity like this. As I've said before ... I'll debate politics and ideology all day long. I'll even debate police brutality and criminality. But what I will NOT do is debate basic arithmetic. Numbers don't lie. Willfully ignorant fools like you do.

OAW

[OAW]

Back on topic ....

The St. Louis County prosecutor who convened the grand jury that investigated the shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown says some witnesses before the panel obviously lied under oath.

Prosecuting Attorney Bob McCulloch spoke Friday to KTRS radio. It was his first interview since his Nov. 24 announcement that the grand jury would not indict Ferguson officer Darren Wilson.

McCulloch referred to one woman who backed up Wilson's account with details clearly pulled from a newspaper account. The Aug. 9 shooting of the black and unarmed Brown by a white officer spurred significant unrest, as did the grand jury announcement.

State Rep. Karla May is urging a legislative committee investigating why Gov. Jay Nixon did not use National Guard troops in Ferguson to investigate McCulloch for prosecutorial misconduct.

Prosecutor in Michael Brown Case Says Some Ferguson Witnesses Clearly Lied - NBC News

Funny how Bob McCulloch didn't spend any time in his smug little news conference disparaging the individuals who "clearly lied" while supporting Wilson's cockamamie story. But he did just that for other witnesses who "clearly lied" while supporting Brown.

OAW

[OAW]

More NYPD shenanigans ....

With the country still on its heels from the deaths of Michael Brown and Eric Garner at the hands of white police officers, video has surfaced of a reportedly 12-year-old boy being punched by a New York Police Department plainclothes officer as three uniformed cops attempt to arrest him, the New York Daily News reports.

"He's 12!" a woman can be heard yelling on the video, which was uploaded to YouTube on Dec. 17. "I can't believe you just did that. I can't believe he just did that after everything that's happened."

According to the person who uploaded the video, the incident occurred after school.

"This happened today on my way to the post office. The kids were 12. They had supposedly pushed one of their classmates down," the YouTube videographer wrote. "However when the victim was asked, he said those weren't the guys. They were still taken away. 12. Years. Old."

According to the Daily News, Internal Affairs is investigating the incident and the arrest, and police say that two young men, including the one struck, were arrested on charges of assaulting someone with a cane.

‘After Everything That’s Happened’: NYPD Plainclothes Officer Punches Boy, 12 - The Root

See the video for yourself. The kid had 3 officers surrounding him as he was leaning against a vehicle. The officer directly behind him takes out handcuffs and puts them on the kid. Then out of nowhere a plain clothes cop runs up and starts punching the kid in the back.

OAW

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

I don't think the issues are mutually exclusive, and it kind of seems like the debate is framed that way.

We can both demand more of our police and work towards solving violent crime problems among various socio-economic demographics.

Infact, I see solving either one as a good step towards solving the other, though progress will be tough on both fronts and not without controversy and missteps along the way.

Yep, completely agree.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OAW 

If 0.00105729% constitutes a "whole demographic" then you are quite frankly a f*cking idiot! Yeah I said it.

Coming from you, a worthless partisan shill, that means nothing, you realize?

Real talk .... I've lost all patience with trying to reason with someone who INSISTS upon pure, unadulterated stupidity like this. As I've said before ... I'll debate politics and ideology all day long. I'll even debate police brutality and criminality. But what I will NOT do is debate basic arithmetic. Numbers don't lie. Willfully ignorant fools like you do.

Cry me a river, jackass, and don't blame me if you don't understand statistics and rates. When there's a >1:1000 chance that you'll be murdered this year (2x higher if you live in a city), which are very shitty odds for such a thing, there's a serious f*cking problem. Again, #1 cause of death; not accidents, not any particular illness, straight-up murder. If you're too damned stubborn and stupid to see that then there's no damned reason to talk to you, which is a shame, because it wasn't that many years ago that you were actually part of the demographic in question.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OAW 

More NYPD shenanigans ....



‘After Everything That’s Happened’: NYPD Plainclothes Officer Punches Boy, 12 - The Root

See the video for yourself. The kid had 3 officers surrounding him as he was leaning against a vehicle. The officer directly behind him takes out handcuffs and puts them on the kid. Then out of nowhere a plain clothes cop runs up and starts punching the kid in the back.

OAW

The kid was fighting, they weren't able to cuff him because of the struggle, and from that angle you can't see the perp's hands, however, the plain-clothes cop could. I'm not saying it was right, but it's impossible to get the whole story from that.

But yeah, they were just standing around with the boy in cuffs when someone ran up and started punching him? How many batteries does it take to power that mega-dense distortion field you keep up?

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

The kid was fighting, they weren't able to cuff him because of the struggle, and from that angle you can't see the perp's hands, however, the plain-clothes cop could. I'm not saying it was right, but it's impossible to get the whole story from that.

Naturally you continue to make ridiculous excuses. "Fighting"? Really? Was he throwing punches? No! Was he trying to escape? No! Was he in any way assaulting the THREE cops who were on both sides of him and behind? No! This was a 12 YEAR OLD KID who got punched repeatedly in his BACK! A bitch-ass move any way you slice it.

OAW

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Cry me a river, jackass, and don't blame me if you don't understand statistics and rates. When there's a >1:1000 chance that you'll be murdered this year (2x higher if you live in a city), which are very shitty odds for such a thing, there's a serious f*cking problem. Again, #1 cause of death; not accidents, not any particular illness, straight-up murder. If you're too damned stubborn and stupid to see that then there's no damned reason to talk to you, which is a shame, because it wasn't that many years ago that you were actually part of the demographic in question.

Actually I understand "statistics and rates" quite well. It's YOU who is stuck on stupid here. We'll set aside the fact that this "1:1000" rate you are talking about is BS when it comes to the "black males age 10-24" demographic that you are so obsessed with. As I mentioned, the stat incited was ALL black murder OFFENDERS. Not VICTIMS. which would include females and those outside that age range. It's interesting how you continue to play fast and loose with them and cite them interchangeably. In any event, let's roll with that and use the nice round numbers of "1:1000" that someone with a limited intellect like yourself can easily follow.

Since you seem to take leave of all simple logic and common sense when discussing black people ... let's say we were talking about a particular demographic of adult white guys. Say aged 18-35. And the "rate" of this particular demographic having sex with a woman in any given year was "1:1000". The rest of them had to suffice with jacking off to Internet porn all year. A predicament that I'm sure you are personally quite familiar with for a variety of reasons. You would have to be a special kind of stupid to REPEATEDLY label this "whole demographic" as a bunch of womanizers.

On that note ... as I said I REFUSE to debate basic arithmetic with you. I have been an active member of this forum since 2001. I have had plenty of epic battles with far more worthy intellectual opponents than you. And in all these years I have NEVER once put a single person on ignore for any reason. Your sorry ass just became the first. Congratulations.

OAW

[besson3c]

OAW: should I bring Abe back here to replace Tightpants?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Actually I understand "statistics and rates" quite well. It's YOU who is stuck on stupid here. We'll set aside the fact that this "1:1000" rate you are talking about is BS when it comes to the "black males age 10-24" demographic that you are so obsessed with. As I mentioned, the stat incited was ALL black murder OFFENDERS. Not VICTIMS. which would include females and those outside that age range. It's interesting how you continue to play fast and loose with them and cite them interchangeably. In any event, let's roll with that and use the nice round numbers of "1:1000" that someone with a limited intellect like yourself can easily follow.

Since you seem to take leave of all simple logic and common sense when discussing black people ... let's say we were talking about a particular demographic of adult white guys. Say aged 18-35. And the "rate" of this particular demographic having sex with a woman in any given year was "1:1000". The rest of them had to suffice with jacking off to Internet porn all year. A predicament that I'm sure you are personally quite familiar with for a variety of reasons. You would have to be a special kind of stupid to REPEATEDLY label this "whole demographic" as a bunch of womanizers.

On that note ... as I said I REFUSE to debate basic arithmetic with you. I have been an active member of this forum since 2001. I have had plenty of epic battles with far more worthy intellectual opponents than you. And in all these years I have NEVER once put a single person on ignore for any reason. Your sorry ass just became the first. Congratulations.

I accept his concession, knowing he'd rather ignore me than ever admit that he's wrong about anything. The fact that he couldn't refute what I said but instead resorted to leaving what amounts to a trollish 3 paragraph insult says it all, really. (It did sort of remind me of trying, and failing, to explain compounded interest to my drug-addled commie neighbor, though.) OAW is grade school in Summertime. No class.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

OAW: should I bring Abe back here to replace Tightpants?

It does fully demonstrate why internet debates seldom ever work out, most people don't want to hear and take in differing opinions and sources, they want an echo chamber.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I accept his concession, knowing he'd rather ignore me than ever admit that he's wrong about anything. The fact that he couldn't refute what I said but instead resorted to leaving what amounts to a trollish 3 paragraph insult says it all, really. (It did sort of remind me of trying, and failing, to explain compounded interest to my drug-addled commie neighbor, though.) OAW is grade school in Summertime. No class.

Why don't you refute his arguments rather than blowing them off? That is indeed frustrating.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

It does fully demonstrate why internet debates seldom ever work out, most people don't want to hear and take in differing opinions and sources, they want an echo chamber.

I think he made his point three or four times or something that you chose to ignore?

[OAW]

@Besson3c

I can do without Abe as well. Nearly every thread he was in went to hell in a hand basket soon thereafter.

As for that other individual .... he can't REFUTE my arguments. Hence why he simply IGNORES them. And then either changes the subject or repeats what's already been debunked. Never ... NOT ONCE ... have you seen this fool respond to any point I've made in this thread with an actual COUNTER-POINT. Backed with FACTS and EVIDENCE. Even on this latest dispute ... I already told him I wasn't contending with his FIGURES. I was contending with the CONCLUSION he was reaching based upon them because it lacked the proper PERSPECTIVE. But clearly that just went right over his head.

This is the same individual who REPEATEDLY claimed that the lawyer for the STL Family Court didn't say what she was QUOTED as saying about Mike Brown's juvenile record that may or may not even exist in MULTIPLE news sources I cited. So there is no way to reason with someone who plays those type of games. I'm not going to debate MATH. I'm not going to debate if the SUN RISES IN THE EAST. I'm not going to debate about DIRECT QUOTES. And that is precisely why I am ignoring him. I'll leave it to the forum regulars to decide for themselves who made the stronger case. You don't even have to review the entire thread. My previous post alone demonstrates quite clearly how mathematically challenged he is! I have better things to do than to continue to entertain his disingenuous tactics.

OAW

[OAW]

Not sure if this is related to the Eric Garner situation, a dirty cop situation, a terrorist attack, or just some random nutcase ....

Two New York City police officers have died after being shot ambush-style in their parked patrol car Saturday, CBS New York and New York Post reported.

An armed man walked up to the vehicle and opened fire before fleeing to a nearby subway station where he apparently committed suicide, police said.

The shooting happened around 3 p.m. in the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood in Brooklyn at the corner of Myrtle and Tompkins avenues.

The officers died after being rushed to Woodhull Medical Center, City Councilman Robert Cornegy told reporters, according to CBS New York. However, the New York Times and Associated Press reported one of the police officers had been pronounced dead and a second was still in critical condition.

At least one of the officers was shot in the head, police said.

Charlie Hu, the manager of a nearby liquor store on the same corner where the incident happened told The New York Times he saw two police officers slouched over in their front seat of their patrol car.

A social worker on the subway platform when the gunman ran inside told the New York Post she feared for her life and the life of her unborn child.

"It looked like two cops came in there was lots of yelling and they said, 'Everybody get down,' said Carmen Jimenez, 32, who is eight months pregnant. "We tried to get out of there, and there was a lot of shouting, people were screaming, people were trying to run."

The shooting comes at a time when police are being heavily criticized for their tactics following the chokehold death of Eric Garner in New York. Several officers have been assaulted at New York City protests during demonstrations that have largely been peaceful.

Reports: 2 NYC officers dead in ambush-style shooting

OAW

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why don't you refute his arguments rather than blowing them off? That is indeed frustrating.

I did, it's right in my previous post. All he did after that is repeat himself and throw in a bunch of insults.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I think he made his point three or four times or something that you chose to ignore?

Nope, I addressed it, he simply doesn't like the answer.

[OAW]

#BlackLivesMatter Protesters Shut Down Part Of Mall Of America

OAW

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OAW 

@Besson3c

I can do without Abe as well. Nearly every thread he was in went to hell in a hand basket soon thereafter.

As for that other individual .... he can't REFUTE my arguments. Hence why he simply IGNORES them. And then either changes the subject or repeats what's already been debunked. Never ... NOT ONCE ... have you seen this fool respond to any point I've made in this thread with an actual COUNTER-POINT. Backed with FACTS and EVIDENCE. Even on this latest dispute ... I already told him I wasn't contending with his FIGURES. I was contending with the CONCLUSION he was reaching based upon them because it lacked the proper PERSPECTIVE. But clearly that just went right over his head.

This is the same individual who REPEATEDLY claimed that the lawyer for the STL Family Court didn't say what she was QUOTED as saying about Mike Brown's juvenile record that may or may not even exist in MULTIPLE news sources I cited. So there is no way to reason with someone who plays those type of games. I'm not going to debate MATH. I'm not going to debate if the SUN RISES IN THE EAST. I'm not going to debate about DIRECT QUOTES. And that is precisely why I am ignoring him. I'll leave it to the forum regulars to decide for themselves who made the stronger case. You don't even have to review the entire thread. My previous post alone demonstrates quite clearly how mathematically challenged he is! I have better things to do than to continue to entertain his disingenuous tactics.

OAW

You're stupid if you think that a >1:1000 chance of being murdered this year isn't substantial and ignore that it's the #1 cause of death for young black men. Those are statistical facts published by the CDC.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Not sure if this is related to the Eric Garner situation, a dirty cop situation, a terrorist attack, or just some random nutcase ....



Reports: 2 NYC officers dead in ambush-style shooting

OAW

Those who were chanting "whatta we want, dead cops, when do we want em, NOW!" got their wish.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Those who were chanting "whatta we want, dead cops, when do we want em, NOW!" got their wish.

Yep, sure is.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Those who were chanting "whatta we want, dead cops, when do we want em, NOW!" got their wish.

We shall see. I truly hope that's not what happened. But we shall see.

OAW

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I did, it's right in my previous post. All he did after that is repeat himself and throw in a bunch of insults.



Nope, I addressed it, he simply doesn't like the answer.

Where did you address his 0.00105729% figure?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Where did you address his 0.00105729% figure?

Really?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Actually, that fits exactly with what I said, hand in glove. 1 in every 1000 black males will be murdered this year, or 100 /100k. That's worse than the worst country in the world, Honduras, which has a homicide rate of 90 /100k. If you're a black guy under the age of 25 you have a better chance of being shot and killed than winning $1000 from a $5 scratch-off (1 in 1400).

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

It isn't. It isn't discussed on national news, or in national papers, or on talk shows, it's actively avoided, despite being the #1 cause of death for black men 18-24 (by a wide margin).

Run along? Oh, I get it, I'm the little kid. How cute. That's so clever!

It's a black community issue, your kids (specifically the males) are f*cked up. I'm not talking about other demographics within the AA community, I'm talking about young "men" (who apparently don't understand the term) who are killing each other at a rate higher than every region or country in the world. At the height of the war in the Congo the rate peaked at 124 /100k, young black men in the US aren't far behind that.

Cops are killing young AA males in altercations while that same group is killing itself at a shocking rate, there's commonality there and something needs to be done to reign in the mayhem and bloodlust.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

When there's a >1:1000 chance that you'll be murdered this year (2x higher if you live in a city), which are very shitty odds for such a thing, there's a serious f*cking problem. Again, #1 cause of death; not accidents, not any particular illness, straight-up murder. If you're too damned stubborn and stupid to see that then there's no damned reason to talk to you, which is a shame, because it wasn't that many years ago that you were actually part of the demographic in question.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

You're stupid if you think that a >1:1000 chance of being murdered this year isn't substantial and ignore that it's the #1 cause of death for young black men. Those are statistical facts published by the CDC.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Where did you address his 0.00105729% figure?

While I appreciate your efforts, you are simply wasting your breath. As I've already stated repeatedly I was never contending with his figures. Only his conclusions based upon them. So given that figure above why don't we all just cut to the chase and call out this utter stupidity ....

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants

Okay, fine. Black people, your kids (specifically the males) are f*cked up. Better?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants

This isn't about people abusing themselves, it's about a group of people preying on and brutalizing each other. Again, not an individual, it's a whole demographic.

... for the racist drivel that it is! Do you have an alternative explanation for how 0.00105729% equates to a "whole demographic" in his mind?

OAW

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Lets use his own numbers, shall we?

Originally Posted by OAW 

Fine. Let's talk about that since you want to go there. Per the US Census Bureau there are 5,083,765 black males age 10-24 in the US as of July 2013.

American FactFinder - Results

And per the FBI Crime Statistics there were 5,375 black murder offenders in 2013.

5,083,765 / 5,375 = 945. Yes, it's 1 out of 945. And young black males account for >90% of all murdered blacks... so that means?

Actually, that fits exactly with what I said, hand in glove. 1 in every 1000 black males will be murdered this year, or 100 /100k. That's worse than the worst country in the world, Honduras, which has a homicide rate of 90 /100k. If you're a black guy under the age of 25 you have a better chance of being shot and killed than winning $1000 from a $5 scratch-off (1 in 1400).

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OAW 

So given that figure above why don't we all just cut to the chase and call out this utter stupidity ... for the racist drivel that it is!

Pitiful.

Hey besson, hurry up and quote my post above so he can see it and then respond in the 3rd person, because, you know, that's the way reasonable, intelligent grownups talk. Right?

[OAW]

It would appear that the murder of the two NYPD officers may be in retaliation for Eric Garner.

AP sources: Cops' killer angry over Garner death

One thing I do find odd. When I came across it this was a two page article with lots of detail. While I was trying to copy/paste it here it suddenly went to 2 paragraphs. Originally there was all kinds of verbiage about Instagram posts along the line of "They took one of ours so we'll take two of theirs". Talk about how this may be his last post and a photo of a silver gun. But now all that is gone. Weird. Perhaps the AP is being more circumspect and not simply rolling with the official police story without proper vetting in light of recent events?

OAW

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Lets use his own numbers, shall we?



5,083,765 / 5,375 = 945. Yes, it's 1 out of 945. And young black males account for >90% of all murdered blacks... so that means?

How is this this the "whole demographic"? I think that is the point he is making. There were 5375 black murders. This doesn't mean that all of these murders were by young black men or they were murders of other black people.

OAW, your numbers are off too. This number is not 0.00105729%, you forgot to multiply by 100. 5,375 / 5,083,765 = 0.00105729, but to get a percent you need to multiply by 100. So this is 0.10572873%. Still, your point remains that Tightpants is overstating the problem and not interpreting these numbers correctly. Another factor I'd throw in is that a number of these murders are probably in troubled urban areas with drug issues. My point here is that this isn't purely a "black community" problem, but an issue of policing, drug laws, poverty, and likely some discrimination as well.

You guys are talking past each other in part because Tightpants is being very imprecise with how he words these things, Tightpants, just as you were with me in using terms like "black community". As I've experienced with you, when a pretty minor mistake in your points is addressed you seem to want to avoid acknowledging this. I don't understand why you don't take this as an opportunity to improve your point. I mean, in many cases just a subtle tweak in your characterizations would put your points in good standing where most of us would agree with them.

I do know from first hand experience that MacNN can be very frustrating with people lawyering everything somebody says, picking it apart to death, but like I said, in the case of race these language issues cause the equivalent of a car spinning its tires while going nowhere. That is partly why this thread is 28 pages and going strong.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How is this this the "whole demographic"? I think that is the point he is making. There were 5375 black murders. This doesn't mean that all of these murders were by young black men or they were murders of other black people.

OAW, your numbers are off too. This number is not 0.00105729%, you forgot to multiply by 100. 5,375 / 5,083,765 = 0.00105729, but to get a percent you need to multiply by 100. So this is 0.10572873%. Still, your point remains that Tightpants is overstating the problem and not interpreting these numbers correctly. Another factor I'd throw in is that a number of these murders are probably in troubled urban areas with drug issues. My point here is that this isn't purely a "black community" problem, but an issue of policing, drug laws, poverty, and likely some discrimination as well.

You guys are talking past each other in part because Tightpants is being very imprecise with how he words these things, Tightpants, just as you were with me in using terms like "black community". As I've experienced with you, when a pretty minor mistake in your points is addressed you seem to want to avoid acknowledging this. I don't understand why you don't take this as an opportunity to improve your point. I mean, in many cases just a subtle tweak in your characterizations would put your points in good standing where most of us would agree with them.

I do know from first hand experience that MacNN can be very frustrating with people lawyering everything somebody says, picking it apart to death, but like I said, in the case of race these language issues cause the equivalent of a car spinning its tires while going nowhere. That is partly why this thread is 28 pages and going strong.

Young black males 10-24 are a demographic, one tracked and measured by various agencies, gov't and private. 1:1000 of them will be murdered this year, it's the #1 cause of death for black males 10-34, 94% by other black males. 1:1000 is virtually the same as saying 0.00105729%, you use division to reach one and multiplication to reach the other. However, I don't consider 0.00105729% to be inconsequential, it would be like claiming 6 million people being killed in Indonesia doesn't matter because we have 6 billion people on the planet.

Let's say you live in a town of 1000 people and every year 1 person from your town is chosen to be killed, thrown into a volcano or whatever, and they're going to hold that drawing for 14 years. In those terms, how do you feel about that? Honestly, would that seem inconsequential to you?

[OAW]

Originally Posted by besson3c

OAW, your numbers are off too. This number is not 0.00105729%, you forgot to multiply by 100. 5,375 / 5,083,765 = 0.00105729, but to get a percent you need to multiply by 100. So this is 0.10572873%

Fair enough. Simply lose the % sign at the end and my point remains.

OAW

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Young black males 10-24 are a demographic, one tracked and measured by various agencies, gov't and private. 1:1000 of them will be murdered this year, it's the #1 cause of death for black males 10-34, 94% by other black males. 1:1000 is virtually the same as saying 0.00105729%, you use division to reach one and multiplication to reach the other. However, I don't consider 0.00105729% to be inconsequential, it would be like claiming 6 million people being killed in Indonesia doesn't matter because we have 6 billion people on the planet.

I honestly don't understand why this is a sticking point. I don't think anybody is disputing these numbers, and in fact OAW said this a number of times. He pointed out that the 5,375 was *total black murders*. This is not the same as total black murders by young men between the ages of 10-24. If you want to make the point that the vast majority of these is of young men, I don't think anybody would disagree with that, but this is not what you said.

It's also 0.105729%, and I don't think anybody has said that it is inconsequential either.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Fair enough. Simply lose the % sign at the end and my point remains.

OAW

Just to play devil's advocate, I think Tightpants is saying that this number is abnormally high. I'm sure you'd agree that this is bothersome, and that it is somewhat understandable that people would want to assign a lot of relevance and meaning to this data point.

That being said, I don't think we can say "hey black community, get your shit together" either. It's not like black people got together and had meetings and decided that murder was a good thing, or that the people that would never think of killing somebody could say "hey guys, let's not do that mmmkay?" It's not a terribly actionable data point, other than the fact that it illustrates that there are still significant challenges that black people face.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I honestly don't understand why this is a sticking point. I don't think anybody is disputing these numbers, and in fact OAW said this a number of times. He pointed out that the 5,375 was *total black murders*. This is not the same as total black murders by young men between the ages of 10-24. If you want to make the point that the vast majority of these is of young men, I don't think anybody would disagree with that, but this is not what you said.

It's also 0.105729%, and I don't think anybody has said that it is inconsequential either.

Exactly. But as I said ... don't expect "Tighty Whiteys" to acknowledge such a basic point.

OAW

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by OAW 

^^^^^

Exactly. But as I said ... don't expect "Tighty Whiteys" to acknowledge such a basic point.

OAW

Race related challenges are dear to my heart as a musician, because I believe that music (swing, the blues, and everything that branched off from it) might be America's greatest and most globally influential export to date, and black people were and still are so central to all of this. There are a number of massive globally known AA athletes as well. For 5M people, it seems like there is a disproportionate amount of talent and cultural gifts that have come from black people, and these struggles that AA people face constantly are just sad to me.

Instead of "comon black people, get your prostitutes together" there should be more Americans recognizing that you are an important part of it, and trying to work with you to recognize and address these challenges in constructive ways.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Just to play devil's advocate, I think Tightpants is saying that this number is abnormally high. I'm sure you'd agree that this is bothersome, and that it is somewhat understandable that people would want to assign a lot of relevance and meaning to this data point.

That being said, I don't think we can say "hey black community, get your shit together" either. It's not like black people got together and had meetings and decided that murder was a good thing, or that the people that would never think of killing somebody could say "hey guys, let's not do that mmmkay?" It's not a terribly actionable data point, other than the fact that it illustrates that there are still significant challenges that black people face.

As I stated ... I never disputed his figures. Quite obviously there is a disproportionate level of homicide among black people. Or perhaps I should say certain socio-economic segments of black people. Because the reality is that the murder rates of middle class or greater blacks is essentially identical to that of their white counterparts. So at the end of the day it is NOT indicative of the "whole demographic". It's pretty clear who is really "f*cked up" here when he continues to double down on this dumb sh*t.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I honestly don't understand why this is a sticking point. I don't think anybody is disputing these numbers, and in fact OAW said this a number of times. He pointed out that the 5,375 was *total black murders*. This is not the same as total black murders by young men between the ages of 10-24. If you want to make the point that the vast majority of these is of young men, I don't think anybody would disagree with that, but this is not what you said.

I addressed that.

5,083,765 / 5,375 = 945. Yes, it's 1 out of 945. And young black males account for >90% of all murdered blacks... so that means?

That's what the whole playing it off as "0.00105729%" was all about, to make it appear smaller than it is.

Oh, and there's the wonderful irony of his arithmetic being entirely wrong while he's faulting mine. Part of it was my fault too, I guess, I suppose I should have been checking his math and mine. I need to learn to never take what he says at face value, ever

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OAW 

As I stated ... I never disputed his figures. Quite obviously there is a disproportionate level of homicide among black people. But at the end of the day it is NOT indicative of the "whole demographic". It's pretty clear who is really "f*cked up" here when he continues to double down on this dumb sh*t.

Black males ages 10-24 IS a whole. ****ing. demographic, dumbass. Do I need to provide definitions for you too?

Demographics are the quantifiable statistics of a given population. Demographics are also used to identify the study of quantifiable subsets within a given population which characterize that population at a specific point in time.

Seriously?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I addressed that.

You did, but not originally. He was right in correcting your original argument, because it was flawed.

That's what the whole playing it off as "0.00105729%" was all about, to make it appear smaller than it is.

Oh, and there's the wonderful irony of his arithmetic being entirely wrong while he's faulting mine. Part of it was my fault too, I guess, I suppose I should have been checking his math and mine. I need to learn to never take what he says at face value, ever

I'm sure it was an innocent mistake. You have both made mistakes. How about we all move on? I don't even think you guys are that far apart, I think the way you have been saying this is just clumsy, but that's cool, it is very easy to be clumsy about matters like this.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You did, but not originally. He was write in correcting your original argument, because it was flawed.

It was all there over the course of several posts I made, just not all in one.

I'm sure it was an innocent mistake. You have both made mistakes. How about we all move on? I don't even think you guys are that far apart, I think the way you have been saying this is just clumsy, but that's cool, it is very easy to be clumsy about matters like this.

Was it? Let's say it was, just for argument's sake, wouldn't that mean that comments (actually insults) like this from him are especially ironic?

On that note ... as I said I REFUSE to debate basic arithmetic with you. I have been an active member of this forum since 2001. I have had plenty of epic battles with far more worthy intellectual opponents than you.

My previous post alone demonstrates quite clearly how mathematically challenged he is! I have better things to do than to continue to entertain his disingenuous tactics.

But what I will NOT do is debate basic arithmetic. Numbers don't lie. Willfully ignorant fools like you do.

In any event, let's roll with that and use the nice round numbers of "1:1000" that someone with a limited intellect like yourself can easily follow.

So I'm the one of "limited intellect" who doesn't understand "basic arithmetic"? What a sad, pitiful little man.