[typoon]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/03/gua...ran/index.html

CNN) -- A U.S. military investigation into the mishandling of the Muslim holy book at the Guantanamo Bay prison for suspected terrorists has determined that detainees -- not U.S. soldiers -- attempted to flush the Quran down the toilet there.

However, the report did find four confirmed incidents in which U.S. personnel at the base mishandled the Quran, including guards kicking a detainee's Quran; a guard's urine "splashed" a detainee and his holy book after coming through an air vent; and guards got in a water balloon fight that resulted in two detainees' Qurans getting wet.

In a fifth confirmed incident, it could not be determined whether a guard or a detainee wrote a two-word obscenity in a detainee's Quran.

The findings of the report, issued by Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, commander of the detention center in Cuba, were released late Friday. They found no evidence to support allegations that U.S. soldiers attempted to flush the Muslim holy book down the toilet.

The investigation was prompted after a Newsweek article citing unnamed sources made such a claim -- prompting violent protests in Afghanistan and other parts of the Muslim world that left more than a dozen people dead. (Full story)

Newsweek has since retracted the story.

The Hood report cited three separate incidents in which detainees tried to flush the Quran down the toilet.

In one incident, on February 23, 2004, the report said a guard saw a "detainee place two Qurans in his toilet and state he no longer cared about the Quran or his religion.

Five minutes later, after the detainee retrieved the Qurans, he ripped several pages out of one Quran and threw the pages on the floor. Then, he placed both Qurans on the sink."

Another time, on January 19, 2005, a detainee "tore up his Quran and tried to flush it down the toilet. Four guards witnessed the incident," the report said.

The report also cited 12 other incidents by detainees, including one who used his Quran as a pillow, another who urinated on his holy book and several who ripped pages from the Quran.

Capt. Jeff Weir, an Army spokesman at the facility, told CNN in a phone interview that the detainees were typically trying to stage some form of protest when they mishandled the Quran.

Hood said investigators reviewed more than 30,000 documents in an exhaustive probe.

"The inquiry found no credible evidence that a member of the Joint Task Force at Guantanamo Bay ever flushed a Quran down a toilet. This matter is considered closed," the report said.

It said the U.S. military has issued more than 1,600 copies of the Quran since January 2002, conducted more than 28,000 interrogations and carried out thousands of "cell moves."

"Mishandling a Quran at Guantanamo Bay is a rare occurrence," Hood said. "Mishandling of a Quran here is never condoned."

The investigators defined mishandling as "touching, holding or the treatment of a Quran in a manner inconsistent with policy or procedure."

Hood said the investigative team looked into 19 incidents involving allegations of mishandling of the holy book, only five of which could be confirmed.

Ten of the incidents did not involve mishandling of the Quran, the report concluded. Four incidents could not be verified.

According to the report, the five confirmed incidents were:

In February 2002, a detainee complained that guards kicked the Quran belonging to a detainee in a nearby cell.
On July 25, 2003, a contract interrogator apologized to a detainee for stepping on his Quran in an earlier interview. The interrogator was later fired "for a pattern of unacceptable behavior, an inability to follow direct guidance and poor leadership."
On August 15, 2003, night shift guards threw water balloons in a cell block, wetting the Qurans of two detainees.
On August 21, 2003, a detainee complained that a "two-word obscenity had been written in English on the inside cover of his English version Quran." The report noted that the detainee knew English and Arabic, and it could not be determined exactly who wrote the phrase. "It is possible that a guard committed this act; it is equally possible that the detainee wrote in his own Quran."
On March 25, 2005, a detainee said "urine came through an air vent" and "splashed on him and his Quran while he laid near the air vent." A guard admitted he was at fault, saying he urinated near an air vent and the "wind blew his urine through the vent into the block." The detainee was given a new uniform and Quran. The guard was reprimanded and placed on gate guard duty away from detainees.
Weir, the Army spokesman at the facility, said about 540 suspected terrorists are housed at the maximum security prison. Noting that only five incidents of mishandling of the Quran could be confirmed, he said, "I will stand by the record here: It's outstanding."

He said even if a U.S. soldier was "contemplating misbehaving," it would be extremely difficult.

"Nothing goes unchecked in Guantanamo Bay," he said. "Everything is documented."

There are about 540 detainees at Guantanamo Bay. Some have been there more than three years without being charged with a crime. Most were captured on the battlefields of Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002 and were sent to Guantanamo Bay in hope of extracting useful intelligence about the al Qaeda terrorist network.

Both U.S. President George W. Bush and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld have denounced an Amnesty International report that called the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay "the gulag of our time."

The president told reporters at a press conference on Tuesday that the report by the human-rights group was "absurd."

On Wednesday, Rumsfeld called the characterization "reprehensible" and said the U.S. military had taken care to ensure that detainees were free to practice their religion.

However, he also acknowledged that some detainees had been mistreated, even "grievously" at times.

[bubblewrap]

Great, good to know they're regecting the lies that is islam...

[Millennium]

So let's see...

Guards kicking a Qu'ran: This is a genuine problem. The guards who committed this act should be dishonorably discharged.
The air vent incident: How the hell does this even work? Aside from the difficulty of urinating through an air vent in general, how would you aim? Unless they were using a whole bucket of urine, or the guy urinated in a jar and threw it through an air vent, I don't see how this could be anything but an accident. Then again, the jar theory is plausible; if it happened the guard should be dishonorably discharged.
The water balloon fight: Given that no one ever claims that the guards were fighting anyone but other guards, this one appears to have been an accident. A regrettable accident, but an accident nonetheless. No blame here.

So we've got one confirmed case of abuse, one probable (but not definite) accident, and two definite accidents. This does not seem like an organized effort of torture, folks.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by Millennium

So let's see...

Guards kicking a Qu'ran: This is a genuine problem. The guards who committed this act should be dishonorably discharged.
The air vent incident: How the hell does this even work? Aside from the difficulty of urinating through an air vent in general, how would you aim? Unless they were using a whole bucket of urine, or the guy urinated in a jar and threw it through an air vent, I don't see how this could be anything but an accident. Then again, the jar theory is plausible; if it happened the guard should be dishonorably discharged.
The water balloon fight: Given that no one ever claims that the guards were fighting anyone but other guards, this one appears to have been an accident. A regrettable accident, but an accident nonetheless. No blame here.

So we've got one confirmed case of abuse, one probable (but not definite) accident, and two definite accidents. This does not seem like an organized effort of torture, folks.

I don't have the links handy, but here is what I have read elsewhere.

The guard (singlular) who kicked the Qur'an was punished and kicked out of Gitmo for disobeying orders.

I haven't read how he was specifically punished but I severely doubt he was dishonorably discharged as it takes rather a large offense to justify such an extreme punishment. A dishonable discharge will screw up your entire life. He kicked a book, not a prisoner.

The urine incident is bizarre, but not as bizarre as it sounds. Apparently a guard went outside the cell block and took a leak up against the building close to a fan that blew air into the building. A gust of wind blew his urine into the fan, which blew it into the cell block where it landed on a Qur'an and a prisoner. In other words, it was a careless accident. He was punished too (stupid place to take a leak).

Sometimes **** just happens, and none of this would cause Ivan Denisovich to lose much sleep.

[PacHead]

This is a total nonissue, and a silly waste of time.

And it's no big surprise of course, that the overwhelming majority of the abuses were commited by the muslim prisoners themselves.

The prisoners should not even be allowed to have access to the koran, as they are using it as their war manual. The USA is also not required to provide them with it. Don't let 'em have one, then nobody will have to whine about any alleged abuse or silly mishandling of some book. Afterall, it's only a book.

[Zimphire]

I heard one soldier even POINTED at the Quran and looked at it funny.

OFF WITH HIS HEAD!

[typoon]

Why do we care if a Koran was kicked or accidently had water spilled on it or urine? US infidels can't touch the Koran in anyway without wearing gloves. I wonder if there would the same outrage if a bible or the Torah was kicked by a guard. why should they even get a Koran in prison?

[SVass]

All of you Republican apologists grab onto one item in a report and harp on it while ignoring CRIMES. There were and are specific allegations of torture at Gitmo. The quote "There are about 540 detainees at Guantanamo Bay. Some have been there more than three years without being charged with a crime. Most were captured on the battlefields of Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002 and were sent to Guantanamo Bay in hope of extracting useful intelligence about the al Qaeda terrorist network." is a typical half-LIE. Today's NY Times has an article about a religious pilgrim who was arrested in Pakistan and is now languishing in Gitmo with no valid charges. The three years without a hearing is flatly unconstitutional. Only war criminals support this activity. Instead of a report by a commanding general, how about an independent prosecutor? sam

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by PacHead

This is a total nonissue, and a silly waste of time.

And it's no big surprise of course, that the overwhelming majority of the abuses were commited by the muslim prisoners themselves.

The prisoners should not even be allowed to have access to the koran, as they are using it as their war manual. The USA is also not required to provide them with it. Don't let 'em have one, then nobody will have to whine about any alleged abuse or silly mishandling of some book. Afterall, it's only a book.

ditto

prisoners shouldn't be allowed to have anything except food, water, and (in extreme cases) clothing.

[bubblewrap]

Originally Posted by SVass

All of you Republican apologists grab onto one item in a report and harp on it while ignoring CRIMES. There were and are specific allegations of torture at Gitmo. The quote "There are about 540 detainees at Guantanamo Bay. Some have been there more than three years without being charged with a crime. Most were captured on the battlefields of Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002 and were sent to Guantanamo Bay in hope of extracting useful intelligence about the al Qaeda terrorist network." is a typical half-LIE. Today's NY Times has an article about a religious pilgrim who was arrested in Pakistan and is now languishing in Gitmo with no valid charges. The three years without a hearing is flatly unconstitutional. Only war criminals support this activity. Instead of a report by a commanding general, how about an independent prosecutor? sam

If there were "crimes" the UN would have forcefully liberated all of them by now, don't you think?

[RAILhead]

I've peed in an air vent before -- it's not that hard.

I remember back a long dang time ago, I had a Sprite in my backpack along with my Bible (it was one some church trip), and the Sprite went asplode and totally fubarred by Bible. The pages were all stuck together, the leather was ruined, etc.

I guess God should have struck me down.

Kicking a Holy book and getting in trouble? THAT'S why the world's going to Hell in a handbasket.


Maury

[spacefreak]

What about these Taliban-Al Qaeda bombings of mosques in Pakistan and Afghanistan? All those Qurans destroyed... where's the outrage over that?

[bubblewrap]

There won't be. These actions were commited by muslims. So it's OK now.

[RIRedinPA]

Well that report ought to ease the anger of the radical Islamist. I'm kind of at a lost as to the point of releasing it, better to let the whole affair just wither on the vine. If your a radical Islamist your not going to believe the report to begin with, if your a European your probably not going to believe the report and if your American, depending on your political orientation there's probably a 50% chance your not going to believe the report.

[SVass]

For those who focus on the one favorable item in a report, I offer this old joke:

I defended you yesterday. Some one said that you eat S**T and bay at the moon.
I said, "No, you don't bay at the moon!"

sam

[BoomStick]

So you are saying muslims don't bay at the moon, but they eat sh*t?

[Macrobat]

Nah, he's just ignoring his own propensity to sieze upon anything negative, no matter how unsubstantiated or trivial.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by SVass

All of you Republican apologists grab onto one item in a report and harp on it...

Well, this thread is about one report, is it not?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by PacHead

The prisoners should not even be allowed to have access to the koran, as they are using it as their war manual. The USA is also not required to provide them with it. Don't let 'em have one, then nobody will have to whine about any alleged abuse or silly mishandling of some book. Afterall, it's only a book.

What's interesting to me isn't whether or not there was an actual incident of abuse, but the apparent double standard that exists.

If a Bible were to be flush down a toilet by Arab prison guards, there would certainly be outrage by the American Christian community. I know that no GTMO guards flushed a Quran, but just the fact that some seem to think it would be a non-issue even if it did happen is interesting.

Also, what would the American Christian community say if Christian soldiers weren't allowed to have access to the Bible? It is, after all, only a book.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Well, this thread is about one report, is it not?

From the last lines of the report cited by this thread:

"On Wednesday, Rumsfeld ... also acknowledged that some detainees had been mistreated, even "grievously" at times."

Yes, this thread is about the report! Republican apologists grab the opening line and read no farther. sam

[Macrobat]

No definition of "grievousl" is provided, either. Your thread title blames the entire thing on President Bush, without a single scintilla of connection, yet you feel you can now try to preach and chastise anyone else?

Democrat apologists grab at straws and invent connections!

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

What's interesting to me isn't whether or not there was an actual incident of abuse, but the apparent double standard that exists.

If a Bible were to be flush down a toilet by Arab prison guards, there would certainly be outrage by the American Christian community. I know that no GTMO guards flushed a Quran, but just the fact that some seem to think it would be a non-issue even if it did happen is interesting.

Also, what would the American Christian community say if Christian soldiers weren't allowed to have access to the Bible? It is, after all, only a book.

Actually, a whole lot worse is done all of time, besides flushing some bible (which is also just a book) down some toilet. Muslims wiped their butts with bibles, when they were camping out in a church not too long ago.

How about Americans being dragged through the streets and hung at bridges like sheep ? How about sawing off the heads of people with a blunt blade ?

Surely this pales, compared to some alleged miniscule incidents against some damn, silly book.

Who cares about a book ? How about the blowing up of religious statues ? The looting, plyndering and destruction of whole temples.

I laugh at anybody who dramatizes this whole koran incident. It is just so insignificant.

If the western world were to show the same respect back, which is shown to others by the muslim world, Mosques would surely be banned.

[BoomStick]

Originally Posted by PacHead

If the western world were to show the same respect back, which is shown to others by the muslim world, Mosques would surely be banned.

No, the middle east would be a smoking hole.

[Goldfinger]

How the **** can *anyone* trust an investigation done by the guys who run the damn place. If it was done by an independant then nobody would whine about it because we would know the absolute truth. But they won't allow that of course... I wonder why...

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

How the **** can *anyone* trust an investigation done by the guys who run the damn place. If it was done by an independant then nobody would whine about it because we would know the absolute truth. But they won't allow that of course... I wonder why...

Because the military has a built-in system of checks and balances, perhaps? Or perhaps because any Congressional member who chooses to do so can go to GITMO and look for themselves?

Who do you suggest for an "independent" investigator? Amnesty International?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

How the **** can *anyone* trust an investigation done by the guys who run the damn place. If it was done by an independant then nobody would whine about it because we would know the absolute truth. But they won't allow that of course... I wonder why...

Because reasonable, intelligent people will take the word of the US military as opposed to the word of a bunch of death cult members which are specifically trained to lie, that's why.

If anybody objects to this, well too bad, they can't do anything about it regardless.

Gitmo is gonna be around for a long, long time.

[pooka]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

What's interesting to me isn't whether or not there was an actual incident of abuse, but the apparent double standard that exists.

Only people with double standards are those who defend fundamentalist Christian assholes and those who defend fundamentalist Muslim assholes. And if you defend an asshole.. well.. that makes you a douche bag.. or something.

If a Bible were to be flush down a toilet by Arab prison guards, there would certainly be outrage by the American Christian community.

Yeah, maybe. They'd start to bitch and moan but then I'd set em straight..

"Look, STFU! You're not getting paid to express your outrage to me about current affairs. No, you're getting paid to make that burger *MY* way... and I said no ****in pickles."

[SVass]

Originally Posted by pooka

Only people with double standards are those who defend fundamentalist Christian assholes and those who defend fundamentalist Muslim assholes. And if you defend an asshole.. well.. that makes you a douche bag.. or something.

Yeah, maybe. They'd start to bitch and moan but then I'd set em straight..

"Look, STFU! You're not getting paid to express your outrage to me about current affairs. No, you're getting paid to make that burger *MY* way... and I said no ****in pickles."

Quit defending PacHead and Macrobat! They are assholes! sam

[bubblewrap]

That was smooth.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

If a Bible were to be flush down a toilet by Arab prison guards, there would certainly be outrage by the American Christian community.

I can only speak for myself and my family, but it would be no big deal. Our God isn't stuck in a rule book -- it's just paper. We'd go grab another off the shelf or order one from Amazon.

Also, what would the American Christian community say if Christian soldiers weren't allowed to have access to the Bible? It is, after all, only a book.

I think you'd need to say Christian soldiers that were being held captive by the terrorists to make the connection. If that were the case, my response would be "of course they won't let them have a Bible -- why should they?"

Nothing to see here folks, nothing to see here...

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by SVass

Quit defending PacHead and Macrobat! They are assholes! sam

Speak for yourself, sphincter boy.

You finally get called for your pontificating and blatant BS, so you resort to ad hom.

Typical, the last refuge of the lost.

Nice try, Howie.

[BoomStick]

[QUOTE=Wiskedjak
Also, what would the American Christian community say if Christian soldiers weren't allowed to have access to the Bible? It is, after all, only a book.[/QUOTE]

They AREN'T allowed access to the Bible (the only true Book of God's word) when captured by terrorist pig dogs.

The only thing they get is their head sawed off.


Gitmo on the other hand is much worse.