[typoon]

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/koran_sop.pdf

This is totally stupid. There are no other such protocols for the bible or torah. WHy should there be special treatment of the Koran?

[Randman]

Why do you capitalize Quran and not Bible and Torah?

[von Wrangell]

The answer to your question is because of the difference in how Jews, Christians and Muslims look at their holy books and how they generally treat it.

But I agree that most of those rules were kinda foolish. The only rules I thought were OK(and in fact necessary were 4 b) and c) as well as 5 2) and 3).

The glove part is taking an easy rule too far. It's about having clean hands when treating the Quran and there is no reason to have gloves. Just show the detainee that the hands are clean.

And before you start complaining about all this you have to remember that the treatment of the Quran does not only affect how the detainees react but also how the rest of the Muslim world views the US.

[budster101]

Who cares how the rest of the world views the USA based on the treatement of a BOOK.

What if they sneeze and their snots go onto the "holy" book? It was an accident right?

This is bulls hit.

[von Wrangell]

And that is why you are still losing this war.

[budster101]

We are not losing the War in Iraq.
You wish we were.

[SVass]

Wars are determined to have been won or lost twenty years and more after. If there is a democratic republic, then we won. If our "evil" opponent is in control (as in VietNam), then we lost. It is not a football game with a running score. It is more analagous to a chess game with pieces all over the board requiring detailed analysis and invoking commentary from the sidelines. sam

[budster101]

Yeah,

I often see people on the sidelines during a chess mach engaged in active commentary...

You sure your name isn't Dumas?

WWII was declared shortly after we dropped the second bomb on Japan. The world new who won, and it didn't take 20 years...

Once again, you lack an ingredient necessary to have credibility. (Facts)

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by budster101

We are not losing the War in Iraq.
You wish we were.

No, I don't wish you were(though I'm not keen on either side winning this war).

Thing is that as long as you don't understand Islam you will continue to make the same mistakes as you've been making the last.... 40 years or so. This war is against "Islamic" terrorists, not any other terrorists. The "Islamic" terrorists recruit from the Islamic nations. If you continue to fail to show respect for Islam you will continue to make it easy for the terrorists to recruit new ones. That will make you lose the war because you won't have the resources to continue this war for 50-100 years.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And that is why you are still losing this war.

Man SOMEONE is delusional.

Japan told it's people they won the war too.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

No, I don't wish you were(though I'm not keen on either side winning this war).

Thing is that as long as you don't understand Islam you will continue to make the same mistakes as you've been making the last.... 40 years or so. This war is against "Islamic" terrorists, not any other terrorists. The "Islamic" terrorists recruit from the Islamic nations. If you continue to fail to show respect for Islam you will continue to make it easy for the terrorists to recruit new ones. That will make you lose the war because you won't have the resources to continue this war for 50-100 years.

von, von, von. it doesn't matter WHAT we do. They MAKE STUFF UP to recruit new people.

You know, we eat muslim babies and stuff.

No matter WHAT we do, nothing is going to change with them. They have a "crusade" to meet. We the west have always been the "bad ones" even before all this.

Stop and think for a minute.

[budster101]

CLUE: They, The "Islamic Terrorists" Do not represent ISLAM. Americans understand that.

The media and other sources are twisting stories and blowing them out of proportion in order to undermine the efforts and successes being made in Iraq.

Believe it or not, we are helping tens of thousands of Iraqis over there and they are appreciative.

BTW: 40 years? Who was in power for most of those 40 years? We understand that, THEY understand force first, and do not respect the failings of the past DEMOCRATic presidents.

The next 50 to 100 years?

When we irradicate the source for Terrorists, we will have won. The only way is to replace what they have with a FREE democratic philosophy governing them. Take away the motivators for terrorism and you defeat terrorism. They need a good life, and are not and have not gotten it from their past rulers. Poverty, Opression and Religion only makes for a bad combination, especially when you have 'Religious Leaders' of Islam contorting their very Holy Book for their own good. Isn't this a fight worth fighting? God knows the past endeavors have failed miserably...

[RAILhead]

von =

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by budster101

CLUE: They, The "Islamic Terrorists" Do not represent ISLAM. Americans understand that.

The media and other sources are twisting stories and blowing them out of proportion in order to undermine the efforts and successes being made in Iraq.

Believe it or not, we are helping tens of thousands of Iraqis over there and they are appreciative.

BTW: 40 years? Who was in power for most of those 40 years? We understand that, THEY understand force first, and do not respect the failings of the past DEMOCRATic presidents.

Like you say, they don't represent Islam. And because of that you have to continue to show respect for Islam(treating the Holy Quran in the right way as well as other things). That is why it matters.

And who was in power for most of those 40 years? Well, despots supported by the west. People abroad don't care if there's a democrat or a republican in charge. What they saw was decades of despots supported by the west torturing their people. Now they see the US invading those same countries killing their people at the same time.

Your strategy has failed.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by budster101

The only way is to replace what they have with a FREE democratic philosophy governing them.

Yes, we'll see how free they are in how you will deal with Palestine and Lebanon the next years. Both Hamas and Hizbollah won in the recent elections in those two countries. That will show us how free they really are.

[budster101]

We have guidelines < That is why... you are wagging the dog....

Our policy was dictated by those leaders for the past 40 years. Nice sidestep.
Read the rules of debate please... http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html

Our strategy has changed. Since we were attacked we are not going to stop until the
terrorists are dead, and the motivation for creating them are gone.

It's the NEW strategy... it's working too.

[budster101]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Yes, we'll see how free they are in how you will deal with Palestine and Lebanon the next years. Both Hamas and Hizbollah won in the recent elections in those two countries. That will show us how free they really are.

Changing gears now are you? You lost the IRAQ argument and now move to another argument.

We did not invade either places...

Afghanistan and Iraq had free elections.
Once Iraq is stabilized and able to protect itself, there will be a balancing power in the middle east, backed by the USA. What will the two powers you mention do to affect anything after this? NOTHING. They will not succeed in furthing terrorist activities.

Hamas and Hizbollah are terrorist organizations... and will be recognized as such.

Syria still has it's secret police force in place... they did not pull out of Lebanon. We'll see what the future holds. I know we are on the right track and will not be derailed.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by budster101

We have guidelines < That is why... you are wagging the dog...

And you started this thread by stating "it was BS". Guidelines mean little if people don't follow them and the public don't support them.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by budster101

Changing gears now are you? You lost the IRAQ argument and now move to another argument.

We did not invade either places...

Afghanistan and Iraq had free elections.

I lost the Iraq argument? Who decided that? You?

Iraq is just a small part of the whole argument for why you are losing this war. Wait a couple of years before claiming Iraq had free elections. Because these elections were far from free.

Once Iraq is stabilized and able to protect itself, there will be a balancing power in the middle east, backed by the USA. What will the two powers you mention do to affect anything after this? NOTHING. They will not succeed in furthing terrorist activities.

Wasn't one of the reasons for invading Iraq that they were threatening their neighbors? Boy, you are all over the place on this one.

Hamas and Hizbollah are terrorist organizations... and will be recognized as such.

There's that "freedom" I was talking about. Thanks for proving my point

Syria still has it's secret police force in place... they did not pull out of Lebanon. We'll see what the future holds. I know we are on the right track and will not be derailed.

It has? Link?

You never were on the right track so you can't be derailed.

[budster101]

Yeah, I don't care how the world views us based on the treatment of a BOOK. Duh.

We do have rules in place for the treatment of the book. Don't degrade my nation based on my oppinion, do so if you have to based on our lack of rules, but then again, we do have rules! Followed by a majority of our good military people who are very professional.

My personal oppinion is just that. I think it's stupid to protect a BOOK.

They are entitled to FOOD, CLOTHING, SHELTER. That's it. The geneva convention does not apply to them.

[Randman]

Congress has to authorize a declaration of war. We are not at war with Iraq though military action is taking place.

to railhead.

[von Wrangell]

[budster101]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I lost the Iraq argument? Who decided that? You?

Iraq is just a small part of the whole argument for why you are losing this war. Wait a couple of years before claiming Iraq had free elections. Because these elections were far from free.

Wasn't one of the reasons for invading Iraq that they were threatening their neighbors? Boy, you are all over the place on this one.

There's that "freedom" I was talking about. Thanks for proving my point

It has? Link?

You never were on the right track so you can't be derailed.

You are all over the place.
You cannot just pick and choose, then change the argument when you have lost the previous.
It's only obvious to everyone except you.

--
Now then:

Iraq is a big part of the problem and the solution. Yes, Iraq was a potentional and successful threat to it's neighbors. With a FREE Iraq that can defend itself it will be an ally and now will be only a threat to TERRORISTS. I don't want to insult you, but do you read and comprehend at thet same time?

When people have been indoctrinated with what they have. (IRAQ and the rest of the middle east, change is painful and difficult.) When has this been ever tried before?

We are on the right track. It's working. Democracy has roots in Afghanistan and Iraq, and it will spread GOD willing.

Can you post without parsing every sentence?

[budster101]

von =

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I lost the Iraq argument? Who decided that? You?

It was pretty obvious you know...

[typoon]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

No, I don't wish you were(though I'm not keen on either side winning this war).

Thing is that as long as you don't understand Islam you will continue to make the same mistakes as you've been making the last.... 40 years or so. This war is against "Islamic" terrorists, not any other terrorists. The "Islamic" terrorists recruit from the Islamic nations. If you continue to fail to show respect for Islam you will continue to make it easy for the terrorists to recruit new ones. That will make you lose the war because you won't have the resources to continue this war for 50-100 years.

It doesn't matter what the US does. They hate us either way. Look at what happened in the Palistinian sector after 9/11 they were dancing in the streets.

We have the resources to fight and win this war we just aren't using them for some unknown reason.

[bubblewrap]

Who the hell is "you've"?
Infadels?(non muslims)

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by budster101

You are all over the place.
You cannot just pick and choose, then change the argument when you have lost the previous.
It's only obvious to everyone except you.

--
Now then:

Iraq is a big part of the problem and the solution. Yes, Iraq was a potentional and successful threat to it's neighbors. With a FREE Iraq that can defend itself it will be an ally and now will be only a threat to TERRORISTS. I don't want to insult you, but do you read and comprehend at thet same time?

When people have been indoctrinated with what they have. (IRAQ and the rest of the middle east, change is painful and difficult.) When has this been ever tried before?

We are on the right track. It's working. Democracy has roots in Afghanistan and Iraq, and it will spread GOD willing.

Can you post without parsing every sentence?

I haven't changed the argument. i know this might be difficult for you to understand but this isn't a black & white, right & wrong or good & bad situation.

Iraq was never a successful threat. Both times they invaded another country they got repelled. Even the time they were supported by the US. Iraq could defend itself very well until you threw it into chaos. Perhaps you don't remember but they were able to deal with the Kurdish terrorists(maybe you are to young to remember when the Kurds were terrorists of the year). Now they are in a state of chaos and there is no indication that it is turning to a better life there. And don't worry about insults. I don't hold your comments in that high regard.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by typoon

It doesn't matter what the US does. They hate us either way. Look at what happened in the Palistinian sector after 9/11 they were dancing in the streets.

We have the resources to fight and win this war we just aren't using them for some unknown reason.

Yes, the terrorists hate you no matter what. That is the problem with the tactic you have chosen now. You aren't dealing with what causes terrorism but you are dealing with the symptoms of terrorism.

And that footage from Palestine was from one street. Not the whole of Palestine and it was one of the saddest moments of "journalism" I've ever seen. You forgot that Arafat called for sympathy and for the Palestinian people to donate blood that would be sent to the US if needed.

You don't have the resources to continue on this path for 50 years. If you believe that you are delusional.

[bubblewrap]

There is plenty of indication life is getting better there, you just choose to ignore it.

[budster101]

I'm counting on the IRAQIS. Like I wrote before. Can you READ and COMPREHEND?
We are there to get the ball rollling in the right direction...

Remember WWII? How about the aftermath and struggle for democracy?

So many ignorant people in these forums...

[von Wrangell]

Yes, it's incredible ignorance to compare the WoT™ to WWII. I completely agree.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

There is plenty of indication life is getting better there, you just choose to ignore it.

Need attention?

Well you got it now

[budster101]

I think you are the attention whore...

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by budster101

I think you are the attention whore...

Good for you. Feel better now?

[PacHead]

This would be my guidelines for handling the koran.

<1> The koran will hereafter be banned and forbidden to possess for all terrorists, detainees, and any other enemy which is held in captivity.

<2> Refer to rule number 1

And yes, Von whatever his name is =

[von Wrangell]

ah, simple minds........

[bubblewrap]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Need attention?

Well you got it now

No, you're spouting crap.
I just thought I'd help guide you back to the truth.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

ah, simple minds........

They were alright in the 80's, they had a few decent tunes.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by PacHead

They were alright in the 80's, they had a few decent tunes.

Never liked 80's music