Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

derekn · May 5, 2003, 01:13 AM

http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/phoenix/n...ird-mac.dmg.gz

Original link was found here:
http://www.mozillazine.org/

JB72 · May 5, 2003, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by derekn:
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/phoenix/n...ird-mac.dmg.gz

Original link was found here:
http://www.mozillazine.org/

Thanks for the heads up. I'm using it now. I like how they use the Favicons to at-a-glance differenciate between tabs.

Mac OS X is just such a tough market to gain web browser users though. We're spoiled in that sense.

juanvaldes · May 5, 2003, 03:23 AM

Still very mozilla but not bad for a first build.

DaedalusDX · May 5, 2003, 03:31 AM

Phoenix suffers similar problems of its bigger brother the Mozilla Application Suite on Mac OS X. The application itself takes too long to load initally (better than Mozilla, obviously, but still slow compared to other OS X apps nowadas) and the user interface is sluggish.

Part of the problem comes from the very nature of Mozilla/Phoenix interface... XUL has been shown to be sluggish, and more than anything else, UGLY on OS X. It clashes wildly with Aqua... Camino (thankfully) works around that by using Aqua widgets wherever it can instead of the XUL type...

Still, I have to admit that Phoenix is impressively fast and lean... its a very very fast browser underneath the interface, and i'm very glad that its becoming the basis for the next Mozilla navigator...

Mac OS X is a tough market for browsers, but I'm glad that there is so much great stuff being worked on now, especially among open source communities. In that respect Mac OS X is a very rich platform for browsers.

JLL · May 5, 2003, 03:43 AM

Originally posted by DaedalusDX:
Phoenix suffers similar problems of its bigger brother the Mozilla Application Suite on Mac OS X. The application itself takes too long to load initally (better than Mozilla, obviously, but still slow compared to other OS X apps nowadas)

It was only slow to launch the first time for me.

WJMoore · May 5, 2003, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by DaedalusDX:
Part of the problem comes from the very nature of Mozilla/Phoenix interface... XUL has been shown to be sluggish, and more than anything else, UGLY on OS X. It clashes wildly with Aqua... Camino (thankfully) works around that by using Aqua widgets wherever it can instead of the XUL type...

Pix, we need pix

pliny · May 5, 2003, 12:40 PM

Hmm, it's hard to use an XUL-based browser with non native widgets.

derekn · May 5, 2003, 12:50 PM

It is a nice build, similar to the build that Kevin posted at his site (http://www.kmgerich.com/misc.html).

A lot of the keyboard shortcuts I'm used to aren't in there yet but the basic browsing is there. At least now that it's an official build it'll get a lot more work done to it. Can't wait for the first milestone.

NeXTLoop · May 5, 2003, 01:26 PM

Does the new browser use existing Mozilla preferences, or does it create its own?

Sarah31 · May 5, 2003, 01:30 PM

they should be changing the name back to phoenix and apologizing to the open source community for steal firebird database's name. besides it is not that impressive of a browser imho.

juanvaldes · May 5, 2003, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Sarah31:
they should be changing the name back to phoenix and apologizing to the open source community for steal firebird database's name. besides it is not that impressive of a browser imho.

can't. they had to change the name from phoenix because (I think) it is a BIOS company/product.

Angus_D · May 5, 2003, 01:53 PM

Indeed, they LEGALLY can't use the name Phoenix, but there are only ethical issues with using the name Firebird

derekn · May 5, 2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by NeXTLoop:
Does the new browser use existing Mozilla preferences, or does it create its own?

It creates it's own prefs in:
Your Home folder:Library

hoenix

The layout is just like Mozillas so if you want to replace the bookmarks, you can just replace the file.

derekn · May 5, 2003, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Sarah31:
besides it is not that impressive of a browser imho.

I'm hoping that will change now since Phoenix is the browser component of Mozilla. Mozilla as it is now is a bit bloated with everything in one package. Hopefully this will let them focus on each component and improve them big time.

Anomalous · May 5, 2003, 03:53 PM

Argh! I already have 5 browsers on my computer! And I'm on a dialup connection...

Scifience · May 5, 2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Anomalous:
Argh! I already have 5 browsers on my computer! And I'm on a dialup connection...

What is this "dialup connection?" I am not familiar with this peice of technology.

SwarmyCurve · May 5, 2003, 04:52 PM

It would have been alright ... circa December 2002!

Now a days, with Safari and all, it is pointless. Why anyone would use this over Safari is beyond me.

Oh, and it will fit in wonderfully with the Luna OSXP (windows) theme.

fortepianissimo · May 5, 2003, 05:36 PM

would be nice if someone could post a blow-by-blow comparison between Chamino and Firebird... (so far I only know Camino uses the native widgets and Firebird uses XUL, which in turns uses the native widgets?)

nforcer · 07:20 PM

Originally posted by Scifience:
What is this "dialup connection?" I am not familiar with this peice of technology.

A slow, outdated connection, that most of the US, and most of the world is stuck with. It's lame so many people don't design things (web pages, sw demos, media files, etc.) so that the suckband majority can use/access them somewhat easily, but I'll save that rant for another time...

I really don't see much of a future for Firebird though. Two projects (camino and now this) using the gecko engine for the projects with the same goals (just a webbrowser, no other mozilla bloat). Why don't the two groups consolidate their resources and make the Camino (the more developed project) better? It doesn't seem to make any sense.

Or is there something I am missing?

nforcer · May 5, 2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by SwarmyCurve:
Why anyone would use this over Safari is beyond me.

Because Safari has quite a few features missing that other browsers have, and quite a few bugs that limit its functionality severly. When loading a bunch of pages in tabs on my suckband (56k) connection, for example, Safari can take minutes to completely load them all either due to bad caching, non-simotaneous downloading or both. Camino on the other hand, can have everything loaded for me in maybe 30 seconds.

There are other issues with both browsers, but right now the other browsers are a little more complete than Safari is.

ambush · May 5, 2003, 07:38 PM

What's up with the name changing @ mozilla

Chimera -> Camino
Phoenix -> Firebird..

I've heard NS only decides... but it's still weird.

juanvaldes · May 5, 2003, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by ambush:
What's up with the name changing @ mozilla

Chimera -> Camino
Phoenix -> Firebird..

I've heard NS only decides... but it's still weird.

Legal problems.

And they can't combine Chimera & Firebird because Firebird is taking over as the new "mozilla", ie it's the basic browser of the gecko engine.

So like Mozilla before it Firebird is going to be the same across all platforms, this means using XUL for the GUI.

Sarah31 · May 6, 2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Indeed, they LEGALLY can't use the name Phoenix, but there are only ethical issues with using the name Firebird

apparently, according to a friend in the US they would be infriging upon copyright laws by using firebird too. firebird db has been in existence for three years and can legally claim right to the name firebird.

if a product in the US has carried a name unchallged for two years by law they own the rights. therefore:

firebird db = 3 years = copyright to the firebird name = infringment of copyright laws by mozilla

JLL · May 6, 2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Sarah31:
apparently, according to a friend in the US they would be infriging upon copyright laws by using firebird too. firebird db has been in existence for three years and can legally claim right to the name firebird.

if a product in the US has carried a name unchallged for two years by law they own the rights. therefore:

firebird db = 3 years = copyright to the firebird name = infringment of copyright laws by mozilla

I think that AOL's copyright lawyers know the law

Btw. the official name is Mozilla Firebird.

entrox · May 6, 2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Sarah31:
they should be changing the name back to phoenix and apologizing to the open source community for steal firebird database's name. besides it is not that impressive of a browser imho.

How about the database changes its name and apologises for stealing the name from GM? Crying bloody murder over a name they didn't invent is just stupid.

Sarah31 · May 6, 2003, 11:09 AM

true but being forced to change your name because somebody else with more money says so is just plain not nice. mozilla has threatened their right to post to freshmeat and other such open source databases because they have essentially breached the spirit of the GPL and other open source licenses. but it obvious that both mozilla and the general public have no respect for the open source community because they have be told by businesses such as microsoft that open source is an evil entity.

JLL · May 6, 2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Sarah31:
true but being forced to change your name because somebody else with more money says so is just plain not nice. mozilla has threatened their right to post to freshmeat and other such open source databases because they have essentially breached the spirit of the GPL and other open source licenses. but it obvious that both mozilla and the general public have no respect for the open source community because they have be told by businesses such as microsoft that open source is an evil entity.

A database and a browser are two different products.

Tenon didn't sue Apple because of iTools.

Sven G · May 6, 2003, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by JLL:
Btw. the official name is Mozilla Firebird.

But wouldn't the more simple Mozilla Navigator have been a better name? It would have been more "international", being based on a Latin word - and would have had a continuity between past, present and future in itself...

mpmchugh · May 6, 2003, 01:32 PM

Btw. the official name is Mozilla Firebird.

Actually, the "official" name is Mozilla Browser.

Mozilla Firebird is and will only be a development codename according to Mozilla:

http://www.mozilla.org/roadmap/branding.html

See #4:

4._ Use the names "Mozilla Browser" and "Mozilla Mail" to describe the Firebird and Thunderbird projects after the 1.4 release.

Also, this branding should be found throughout the projects if possible instead of referring to the Firebird and Thunderbird names directly._ Project names are transitory._ As long as we have both a mail and browser project, we should be using the mozilla brand and reinforcing it whenever we get the chance.

JLL · May 6, 2003, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by mpmchugh:
Actually, the "official" name is Mozilla Browser.

Mozilla Firebird is and will only be a development codename according to Mozilla:

http://www.mozilla.org/roadmap/branding.html

See #4:

4._ Use the names "Mozilla Browser" and "Mozilla Mail" to describe the Firebird and Thunderbird projects after the 1.4 release.

Also, this branding should be found throughout the projects if possible instead of referring to the Firebird and Thunderbird names directly._ Project names are transitory._ As long as we have both a mail and browser project, we should be using the mozilla brand and reinforcing it whenever we get the chance.

What on earth is the problem then?

NeXTLoop · May 6, 2003, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by JLL:
What on earth is the problem then?

People with incorrect information who spread it without verifying its accuracy, or lack thereof.

pliny · May 6, 2003, 08:07 PM

I love convoluted threads like these!

Sven G · May 7, 2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by pliny:

derekn · May 9, 2003, 12:17 AM

Looks like Phoenix/Firebird will now just be Mozilla browser and the email client will be Mozilla Mail.

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-1000146.html

pliny · May 9, 2003, 02:17 PM

I don't know whether the phoenix builds of moz will have much traction (is that a word we can use with software?) on the mac side given how the interface is so very windowsy. ui has never ever been their strong suit over at moz.

juanvaldes · May 9, 2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by pliny:
I don't know whether the phoenix builds of moz will have much traction (is that a word we can use with software?) on the mac side given how the interface is so very windowsy. ui has never ever been their strong suit over at moz.

the older UI actually looks pretty nice, but I think they changed it over for linux/doz as well.