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josiahpugh · May 28, 2003, 06:49 PM

We are working on developing a new IM client. It will support all the major IM vendor's protocols. What we want from you is to see what you'd like to see in our IM product that you haven't seen in other Mac OS X IM products such as iChat, Adium and Fire. What are your favorite features in the IM client you use?

We are also looking for someone to design an icon for our application. A name has not yet been choosen, however we are close to completion. Any help by the users of the forum would be appreciated.

Thanks!,
Josiah Pugh
William Reading

geekwagon · May 28, 2003, 07:12 PM

The number one feature I would want is the ability to work through an http proxy.

The only clients that currently support it are iChat and the AOL client. iChat only supports https which won't work through the proxy server I am behind anymore. And AOL's client just sucks.

CheesePuff · May 28, 2003, 07:16 PM

This is SOFTWARE related, you blind boy.

Guy Incognito 2 · 08:08 PM

Originally posted by geekwagon:
The number one feature I would want is the ability to work through an http proxy.

The only clients that currently support it are iChat and the AOL client. iChat only supports https which won't work through the proxy server I am behind anymore. And AOL's client just sucks.

The next Proteus release will have all supported services supposedly work through proxy servers...and will include the iChat protocol used for Rendezvous IMing.

I'll believe it when I see it...Justin's not giving any dates or revealing much. He's rewritten the app and it's supposedly much better and cleaner code-wise...and has moved many features into the daemon services (standalone) which means you don't need the GUI to stay online or receive messages.

But with rewrites, I bet he's brought lots of bugs and we'll have to go through mind-bogglingly unstable alpha releases I bet.

But we'll see.

Adam Betts · May 28, 2003, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by josiahpugh:
We are working on developing a new IM client. It will support all the major IM vendor's protocols. What we want from you is to see what you'd like to see in our IM product that you haven't seen in other Mac OS X IM products such as iChat, Adium and Fire. What are your favorite features in the IM client you use?

Do you think you can beat the upcoming Adium 2, Proteus (next release as Guy Incog mentioned) and iChat 2 (Panther)?

someone_else · May 28, 2003, 08:11 PM

I don't get this. Why start from scratch when you can help an existing project that is free. I'm talking about Fire. It is probably the best IM client out there, and all of the source is free. If you want something added, then contribute to it. Why start from scratch? It doesn't make any sense. (Unless you want to charge for this new client; which is a bad idea since iChat, and Fire are free).

Adam Betts · 08:20 PM

dp

Severed Hand of Skywalker · May 28, 2003, 10:06 PM

What will it offer that all the others don't?

aaanorton · May 28, 2003, 10:12 PM

it goes to eleven

thePurpleGiant · May 28, 2003, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by josiahpugh:
We are working on developing a new IM client. It will support all the major IM vendor's protocols. What we want from you is to see what you'd like to see in our IM product that you haven't seen in other Mac OS X IM products such as iChat, Adium and Fire. What are your favorite features in the IM client you use?

We are also looking for someone to design an icon for our application. A name has not yet been choosen, however we are close to completion. Any help by the users of the forum would be appreciated.

Thanks!,
Josiah Pugh
William Reading

I'd like:

*File transfers that actually work. Sending and recieving.
*An interface similar to Proteus (doesn't have to be, but I like the way it works)
*3-4-5 way chat to work with no problems.
*The ability to view the different forms of User Profiles for all types of accounts.
*Good chat history feature
*The ability to see when users add you to their list. Ability to block users on the server, rather than just in the program.
*Automatic sychronising of server/client for buddy lists.

That's all for now

Jeremy

wtmcgee · May 28, 2003, 11:04 PM

couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally posted by someone_else:
I don't get this. Why start from scratch when you can help an existing project that is free. I'm talking about Fire. It is probably the best IM client out there, and all of the source is free. If you want something added, then contribute to it. Why start from scratch? It doesn't make any sense. (Unless you want to charge for this new client; which is a bad idea since iChat, and Fire are free).

MaxPower2k3 · May 28, 2003, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by aaanorton:
it goes to eleven

lmao

Billatq · May 28, 2003, 11:51 PM

I don't get this. Why start from scratch when you can help an existing project that is free. I'm talking about Fire. It is probably the best IM client out there, and all of the source is free. If you want something added, then contribute to it. Why start from scratch? It doesn't make any sense. (Unless you want to charge for this new client; which is a bad idea since iChat, and Fire are free).

Perhaps you don't like choice--or maybe you don't have a spirit of adventure at all. Rather than being all pessimistic, perhaps you should actually look at what you might use an IM client for and then think about features that would be useful. Some of us actually think developing software is fun, so while maybe you don't care, others do.

7Macfreak · May 29, 2003, 12:04 AM

support for webcam and voice chat.

Brass · May 29, 2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by 7Macfreak:
support for webcam and voice chat.

errr... I think you're after a video conferencing client, not an IM client.

austeros · May 29, 2003, 12:43 AM

dual window mode ala adium. i like having all my im windows in one, divided by tabs, lots less cluttered

Sage · May 29, 2003, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by thePurpleGiant:

*File transfers that actually work. Sending and recieving.
*An interface similar to Proteus (doesn't have to be, but I like the way it works)
*3-4-5 way chat to work with no problems.
*The ability to view the different forms of User Profiles for all types of accounts.
*Good chat history feature
*The ability to see when users add you to their list. Ability to block users on the server, rather than just in the program.
*Automatic sychronising of server/client for buddy lists.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Yup, these are exactly the things that I want in an IM client, especially working file transfers... and please don't do what Apple did with iChat and make image files show up as images within the chat screen... I just want to send the file, dagnabbit!

What I really want is the power of Adium and Fire combined with the pretty interface of iChat. Eh, Proteus is probably the exact answer for that, but I'm 15 years old, and my parents won't let me use their credit card for these kinds of things, so I have to use freeware.

fireside · May 29, 2003, 12:49 AM

single window interface

file transfers

working Chat (yes like more than 2 people talking at a time)

buddy icons

direct connect

basically everything the AOL Client has but not as crappy.

fireside · May 29, 2003, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by Sage:
What I really want is the power of Adium and Fire combined with the pretty interface of iChat. Eh, Proteus is probably the exact answer for that, but I'm 15 years old, and my parents won't let me use their credit card for these kinds of things, so I have to use freeware.

eh Proteus is basically "Freeware" just every once in a while it pops a nag screen up with a cute picture of his dog asking you to give him money.

Earth Mk. II · May 29, 2003, 01:35 AM

If the GPL doesn't bother you, why not take Gaim and write an Aqua UI around it?

I haven't looked at the source, so it may not be much better than starting from scratch - but, if you can work it, you have the advantage of the whole Gaim project adding protocals, features and such for you.

Plus, Gaim has full OSCAR support. I don't think any other 3rd party client (besides Trillan and iChat) has that.

Peter · May 29, 2003, 02:41 AM

IMO Proteus is the nicest, cleanest client in OS X atm, its GUI is incredble and it supports all the major services. IRC is supposedly coming soon too

phrenzy · May 29, 2003, 04:26 AM

What I really need is a client that understands the binary language of moisture vaporators.

No really.

Just make TRILLIAN for the mac and i'll be happy.

biscuit · May 29, 2003, 05:07 AM

Well, Proteus will be pretty hard to beat IMO, especially if the new version is as good as it sounds. But then Justin's been away for a while....

Then again, I'm fickle. Make me a client that allows proper multi-person chat on MSN and I'll switch! File transfers would be nice, but I think my college block them anyway.

If you decide it's too much to start from scratch then there are a lot of good projects out there as people have suggested.

Good luck anyways.

biscuit

Jan Van Boghout · May 29, 2003, 06:08 AM

Try to make a client that concentrates on MSN. There are so many AIM alternatives already

Tsilou B. · May 29, 2003, 07:39 AM

It should support GPG, like Fire does.

Brazuca · May 29, 2003, 08:31 AM

heheh....sounds like you have a lot to do to get all these things working.

One more thing to add, and maybe this is just not possible:

The ability to set away messages by group. Sometimes I'm working online with some people on MSN and/or AIM and I want everyone else to see me as "busy".

Or sometimes I only want my family to see me as available or visible.

is this possible?

Zimphire · May 29, 2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by someone_else:
I don't get this. Why start from scratch when you can help an existing project that is free. I'm talking about Fire. It is probably the best IM client out there, and all of the source is free. If you want something added, then contribute to it. Why start from scratch? It doesn't make any sense. (Unless you want to charge for this new client; which is a bad idea since iChat, and Fire are free).

I myself just started using Fire again.Ever since it started doing file transfers I have been using it. I like the layout better than Proteus, and it doesn't seem to be as buggy. (at least not the latest build I have been using) Plus you can download the daily builds and compile them. (Anyone can, for free)

Billatq · May 29, 2003, 01:11 PM

We were talking about building a gui around gaim, but the problem with that is that it's still too closely integrated with gtk. They're currently in the process of separating the UI and the core though, so we might be seeing someone working on that within the next year or so. It's workable, but much more difficult than bringing the best features from all the other im clients and merging them together into a single program with an awesome UI.

By the way, the oscar protocol doesn't allow you to selectively set away messages for differnent users, though I'm not sure about the other ones.

Bobby · May 29, 2003, 02:50 PM

I use and like proteus... It hasn't been updated in a while, though...

The main thing I dislike about Proteus is that it won't support my .Mac account...

Earth Mk. II · May 29, 2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Billatq:
We were talking about building a gui around gaim, but the problem with that is that it's still too closely integrated with gtk. They're currently in the process of separating the UI and the core though, so we might be seeing someone working on that within the next year or so. It's workable, but much more difficult than bringing the best features from all the other im clients and merging them together into a single program with an awesome UI.

By the way, the oscar protocol doesn't allow you to selectively set away messages for differnent users, though I'm not sure about the other ones.

Yeah, I figured it was something like that -- I remember hearing about the gtk integration.

Still, it's by far the most well developed multi-protocol IM client out there, IMHO. A core engine for the protocol plugins would almost be ideal for porting open IM clients.

Billatq · May 29, 2003, 03:53 PM

Very true--I love using gaim and I often run it with the bluecurve theme (of red hat fame) via fink. I'm not sure if I'd be up to porting it's UI right now, but it's certainly one of the most full featured open source clients out there right now.

[APi]TheMan · May 29, 2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by thePurpleGiant:

*File transfers that actually work. Sending and recieving.
Eh. I usually find other ways (I used to host stuff on my http, but now I'm NAT'd), but I guess it'd be nice for file transfer to just work.

*An interface similar to Proteus (doesn't have to be, but I like the way it works)
The one thing I don't like about Proteus is the buddy list. I love Adium's. Adium 2's unfortunately doesn't have the same feel (last time I compiled a CVS build that is).

*Good chat history feature
I dig Adium's logging and log viewer.

*Automatic sychronising of server/client for buddy lists.
1) My buddy list is too large to store on servers.
2) I just export my list every once in a while, then I don't have to worry about it.

[APi]TheMan · May 29, 2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by PeterClark2002:
IMO Proteus is the nicest, cleanest client in OS X atm, its GUI is incredble and it supports all the major services. IRC is supposedly coming soon too

Oh my. Why would you ever want IRC support in a multi-protocol application, ew.

simonmartin · May 29, 2003, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by someone_else:
I don't get this. Why start from scratch when you can help an existing project that is free. I'm talking about Fire. It is probably the best IM client out there, and all of the source is free. If you want something added, then contribute to it. Why start from scratch? It doesn't make any sense. (Unless you want to charge for this new client; which is a bad idea since iChat, and Fire are free).

Originally posted by Billatq:
Perhaps you don't like choice--or maybe you don't have a spirit of adventure at all. Rather than being all pessimistic, perhaps you should actually look at what you might use an IM client for and then think about features that would be useful. Some of us actually think developing software is fun, so while maybe you don't care, others do.

Billatq,

It's not that people don't want choice, it's that there is enough choice already and we'd all like to see the projects available move on even further.

'Fire' is a great project and Open Source, why not add to it rather than covering much of the same ground again?

Use the excellent suggestions you have been given and 'stand on the shoulders of giants' :-)

It doesn't stop you from having 'fun' developing software and it means others can enjoy your work rather than having yet another part-finished project join the fray. That way we'll eventually be able to topple some of the commercial offerings which are simply there to attempt to stifle the market and line people's pockets.

Whatever you decide, good luck with it!

Simon
London Uk

Guy Incognito 2 · May 29, 2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by [APi]TheMan:
Oh my. Why would you ever want IRC support in a multi-protocol application, ew.

I know...I dunno what the furk Proteus and Fire authors were thinking. The two don't even mix?

King Bob On The Cob · May 29, 2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
I know...I dunno what the furk Proteus and Fire authors were thinking. The two don't even mix?

IM programs usually include Chat. IRC is just another chat room, but they weren't implemented well in ANY cleint I've seen.

Stradlater · May 29, 2003, 06:43 PM

instead of starting from scratch, why not make plug-ins for Adium 2?

Hozie · May 29, 2003, 06:56 PM

* Single window mode (my biggest gripe with Fire). At least make it an option...

* Voice notification of buddies logging on/off (� la Fire)

* Good support for multi-user chats, whether initiated by you or by a buddy. Fire handels this extremely badly IMHO.

* Logging

* Light-weight and unobtrusive

Basically PurpleGiant's requests + Voice notification...

itai195 · May 29, 2003, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Billatq:
Very true--I love using gaim and I often run it with the bluecurve theme (of red hat fame) via fink. I'm not sure if I'd be up to porting it's UI right now, but it's certainly one of the most full featured open source clients out there right now.

I'm with you. Gaim is fantastic, and I'd love to see a native osx version. I run it whenever I use Linux or Windows nowadays.

ambush · May 29, 2003, 08:58 PM

Well, to say the least, josiahpugh is a mysterious man.

Guy Incognito 2 · May 29, 2003, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by Stradlater:
instead of starting from scratch, why not make plug-ins for Adium 2?

Or Proteus. Proteus is by fare the most flexible and expandable IM client out there right now.

I'm sure Adium 2 will be cool too but Proteus really has it set with stand-alone daemons that can run without Proteus being launched at all.

The service daemons will run in the background and ensure that you're 'online' (by online I mean, online or away or busy or any online status) all the time to receive messages.

The daemon will queue up all messages until a GUI is launched, in this case Proteus...but anyone is free to create their own GUI and let the daemons pass the messages to the GUI frontend.

Heck...if Adam Iser wanted an easier time, he could use those plugin daemons.

If a daemon crashes, it doesn't take down the app. The front-end will just relaunch the daemon. (Proteus does this now...but the next release is putting more stuff into the daemon itself so it doesn't have to rely on Proteus being launched all the time.)

It's even possible to use daemons on a remote computer. If you're at work...you can remotely log into your computer at home, and have the Proteus front-end get all the messages queued in the home daemons. Justin might eventually release a CLI version that uses the daemons...then you can easily SSH into your computer from anywhere and get your messages.

Proteus also brings in customizability such as status icon themes packs, sound packs and emoticon packs. Anyone can easily create these and customize Proteus to their liking.

A dude named Proton reversed-engineered (I think) the iChat protocol used for Rendezvous IMing and will be included in the next version of Proteus. He also contributed some code that will allow for most or all protocols to go through proxy servers.

People see me as a Proteus cheerleader or fanboy. Truth is, I haven't touched Proteus in 4 months. It hasn't improved at all in the last 5 months (Justin being busy)...I still have gripes about the interface and bugs that have been present since the dawn of time. I am not a Proteus fanboy. But I give credit where credit is due and Proteus is by far the most well thought-out IM client...best GUI (most in-tune with the Aqua interface than any other IM client), best flexibility (through plugins), offers the most services support, most original features (Address Book support, CLI command sending, broadcast feature...)

It's not perfect...far from it...but it's the best I've used, by far.

Superchicken · May 29, 2003, 09:43 PM

Interface wise I would LOVE a single window but with all the info in one window but with one chat window...

Wow that's confusing eh?

OK basically a layout similar to iTunes, where you have your libraries on the left hand side, and then the list in the middle right? Well instead of a list of songs in the middle you have your IM window, and then on the right side with another list, you have a list of the users you're actually talking to. By double clicking a budy name the window will be released from the main one and you'll have multiple windows. And then just have a little button for closing conversations.

Proteus's UI comes the closest to this they just don't intigrate the budy list. If they did it would be amazing.

Oh and file transfer for MSN and image connection for AIM is a MUST, no clients support image transfer but I use it ALL THE TIME, and it irks me to have to host stuff on a server or e-mail an image.

Superchicken · May 29, 2003, 09:45 PM

By the way if you guys want help with designing widgets or something like that and icons I'd LOVE to give you a hand if you're actually trying to make a really good client like this... I'm not good at coding but I'm quite the pixel pusher.

e-mail me at [email protected] if you want help with that.

ambush · May 29, 2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Or Proteus. Proteus is by fare the most flexible and expandable IM client out there right now.

I'm sure Adium 2 will be cool too but Proteus really has it set with stand-alone daemons that can run without Proteus being launched at all.

The service daemons will run in the background and ensure that you're 'online' (by online I mean, online or away or busy or any online status) all the time to receive messages.

The daemon will queue up all messages until a GUI is launched, in this case Proteus...but anyone is free to create their own GUI and let the daemons pass the messages to the GUI frontend.

Heck...if Adam Iser wanted an easier time, he could use those plugin daemons.

If a daemon crashes, it doesn't take down the app. The front-end will just relaunch the daemon. (Proteus does this now...but the next release is putting more stuff into the daemon itself so it doesn't have to rely on Proteus being launched all the time.)

It's even possible to use daemons on a remote computer. If you're at work...you can remotely log into your computer at home, and have the Proteus front-end get all the messages queued in the home daemons. Justin might eventually release a CLI version that uses the daemons...then you can easily SSH into your computer from anywhere and get your messages.

Proteus also brings in customizability such as status icon themes packs, sound packs and emoticon packs. Anyone can easily create these and customize Proteus to their liking.

A dude named Proton reversed-engineered (I think) the iChat protocol used for Rendezvous IMing and will be included in the next version of Proteus. He also contributed some code that will allow for most or all protocols to go through proxy servers.

People see me as a Proteus cheerleader or fanboy. Truth is, I haven't touched Proteus in 4 months. It hasn't improved at all in the last 5 months (Justin being busy)...I still have gripes about the interface and bugs that have been present since the dawn of time. I am not a Proteus fanboy. But I give credit where credit is due and Proteus is by far the most well thought-out IM client...best GUI (most in-tune with the Aqua interface than any other IM client), best flexibility (through plugins), offers the most services support, most original features (Address Book support, CLI command sending, broadcast feature...)

It's not perfect...far from it...but it's the best I've used, by far.

Yeah well until he released some kind of SDK/specs/framework, we can't do nothing.

Guy, you really act like the Proteus press contact or something. It's mildly lame.

Guy Incognito 2 · May 29, 2003, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by ambush:
Yeah well until he released some kind of SDK/specs/framework, we can't do nothing.

Guy, you really act like the Proteus press contact or something. It's mildly lame.

Yeah...I have two different roles. I act as some Proteus press contact on MacNN, but also a Proteus doomsayer on the Proteus boards.

No joke...if you think I'm somekind of freak on these boards, check out the Proteus boards. You can't say anything bad about Proteus or you'll get the Proteus Squad on your back for the rest of eternity.

It's no use complaining about Proteus here so I just talk about the pros here. I go into details about the cons on the Proteus boards where it counts, even if I have to fend off the Pro-teus People.

Brazuca · May 29, 2003, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Or Proteus. Proteus is by fare the most flexible and expandable IM client out there right now.

I'm sure Adium 2 will be cool too but Proteus really has it set with stand-alone daemons that can run without Proteus being launched at all.

The service daemons will run in the background and ensure that you're 'online' (by online I mean, online or away or busy or any online status) all the time to receive messages.

The daemon will queue up all messages until a GUI is launched, in this case Proteus...but anyone is free to create their own GUI and let the daemons pass the messages to the GUI frontend.

Heck...if Adam Iser wanted an easier time, he could use those plugin daemons.

If a daemon crashes, it doesn't take down the app. The front-end will just relaunch the daemon. (Proteus does this now...but the next release is putting more stuff into the daemon itself so it doesn't have to rely on Proteus being launched all the time.)

It's even possible to use daemons on a remote computer. If you're at work...you can remotely log into your computer at home, and have the Proteus front-end get all the messages queued in the home daemons. Justin might eventually release a CLI version that uses the daemons...then you can easily SSH into your computer from anywhere and get your messages.

Proteus also brings in customizability such as status icon themes packs, sound packs and emoticon packs. Anyone can easily create these and customize Proteus to their liking.

A dude named Proton reversed-engineered (I think) the iChat protocol used for Rendezvous IMing and will be included in the next version of Proteus. He also contributed some code that will allow for most or all protocols to go through proxy servers.

People see me as a Proteus cheerleader or fanboy. Truth is, I haven't touched Proteus in 4 months. It hasn't improved at all in the last 5 months (Justin being busy)...I still have gripes about the interface and bugs that have been present since the dawn of time. I am not a Proteus fanboy. But I give credit where credit is due and Proteus is by far the most well thought-out IM client...best GUI (most in-tune with the Aqua interface than any other IM client), best flexibility (through plugins), offers the most services support, most original features (Address Book support, CLI command sending, broadcast feature...)

It's not perfect...far from it...but it's the best I've used, by far.

Wow, I use Proteus exclusively and had NO IDEA of these features. I would like to be able to have a GUI in a different computer get my messages and to leave the deamons running. How do I do that?

I also agree with another previous poster that between Fire and Proteus, there is significant development in this area. I would love to see all your effort be put to make one of these a killer app, and lead the field. Something that is as good and elegant as Watson for example.

Guy Incognito 2 · May 29, 2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Brazuca:
Wow, I use Proteus exclusively and had NO IDEA of these features. I would like to be able to have a GUI in a different computer get my messages and to leave the deamons running. How do I do that?

The service daemons have been rewritten for the next Proteus release. You can't exactly log on remotely and get your messages with the current version, but you will probably be with the next version.

Of course, Justin often talks a lot and doesn't delivers until much later so I really don't have a clue when the next release is coming.

But yeah...I can see myself one day having to check messages sent to my home computer through ssh. Actually...there's a few times where I actually would have needed that feature.

7Macfreak · May 30, 2003, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Brass:
errr... I think you're after a video conferencing client, not an IM client.

noooo, something like yahoo msngr on windows.

slider · May 30, 2003, 03:17 AM

Originally posted by thePurpleGiant:
*The ability to see when users add you to their list.

Is that possible? That'd be great.

thePurpleGiant · May 30, 2003, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by slider:
Is that possible? That'd be great.

Well MSN Messenger and ICQ do it (in their native programs, not 3rd party ones) so I don't see why not.

It will normally say "User xxx has added you to their list, would you like to add them to yours?

Useful