[Judge_Fire]

I'll see if I find the Live Picture install disks here somewhere. I've got a spare 7100 here which I've been meaning to setup as a legacy machine, so if LP works in 8.6 or 9.x, then I could grab some screenshots. Or if I find the manual, I'll do a few scans.

J

[DeathMan]

Originally Posted by Gee4orce

I'm really excited about this app - but I think an Express version would really be more appropriate to my needs. Mind you, I"m not sure which features I'd want to get cut to make it 'Express' :/

Drop raw support, and that'd pretty much do it. Thats what they do with FCP Express. But who would buy it without raw suppport. iPhoto supports raw, I think.

You'd need the stacking, the "choose which images to import" could go. I don't know what else to get rid of. Dropping raw support (or having some type of archived raw version, and building JPGs to work with) would also drop the system requirements, I'd think, which is something an express version would have to do.

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

There won't be an "Aperture Express", they will simply migrate some features down to iPhoto.

[DeathMan]

Why not? They've done it with FCP and Logic.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by DeathMan

Why not? They've done it with FCP and Logic.

because they already have iPhoto and a aperture "Lite" would mimic much of iPhoto plus the additional functionality of aperture. either they kill off iphoto and create a aperture lite app or they push down the functionality to iphoto.


Mike

[Westfoto]

This is one hell of a program!

I am a photographer and one of the many things that I like in this program is the metadata, and the management abilities that this program has. If the speed is there then this will go hand in hand with Photoshop. This can manage a job then you use Photoshop to do the heavy lifting when needed and every job has a little bit of heavy lifting to do.


This might give me a real reason to get a new machine and the fact that Apple just updated the PowerMac line also. Quite nice to see this coming from Apple.

West

[tooki]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey

Macromedia X-res did that too if I remember correctly.

Yup. X-res was an awesome app, totally designed for real-time interactivity. May it rest in peace!

Live Picture was neat, too. It's too bad these apps never caught on!

Originally Posted by DeathMan

You can tell when a user interface is good because its users say stuff like "This is just how I used to do it in the old days before computers." This is why "intuitive" is not arbitrary. An intuitive interface is based on something you've used in the past in real life..

Nice thought, but not entirely right. A computer is fundamentally different beast from the real world, and real-world methods carried over 1:1 tend to result in frustratingly limited interfaces. Computers don't have the same constraints and limitations as the real world (computers have unique constraints and limitations), and it doesn't make sense to artificially impose real-world limitations on the computer.

An intuitive interface is one that is easily learnable, and lets you apply prior knowledge to the new method. These days, relatively few users are using a computer for the first time, so they already have some ideas.

A brilliant interface is so easy that anyone can sit down and use it, yet lets you work in ways you never could have done before computers. Non-linear video editing is a perfect example: iMovie is a non-linear editor, yet easy to use. (I even think Final Cut is, fundamentally, an easy app. Avid and Media 100 get big fat zeros in usability.) Apple has a knack for coming up with these things, and I think Aperture is a great example of taking the best of real-world work and uniting it with the flexibility and power of modern computing.

tooki

[mania]

hmm, i wonder if iView peeed their pants. looks like they are releasing version 3 http://www.iview-multimedia.com/press/pr-201005.php. I really love iView much more than iPhoto.

[anti-sleep]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

because they already have iPhoto and a aperture "Lite" would mimic much of iPhoto plus the additional functionality of aperture. either they kill off iphoto and create a aperture lite app or they push down the functionality to iphoto.


Mike

iMovie didn't stop them from releasing FCE, and Garage Band didn't stop them from releasing Logic Express.

[rishio]

Wouldn't it be cool if Apple was working on a secret image manipulation graphics application? An app like Aperture could then be used with their own image manipulation application instead of photoshop. In fact, if well designed, the apple app could work with other programs as well and create a better, unified user experience..

I don't think aperture could ever replace photoshop, but they could create an app that works nicely with aperture - and that app tied with other apps could cover all grounds photoshop covers.. without the bloat all in one design.

[Westfoto]

Originally Posted by mania

hmm, i wonder if iView peeed their pants. looks like they are releasing version 3 http://www.iview-multimedia.com/press/pr-201005.php. I really love iView much more than iPhoto.

I have heard some horor stories with people who use iVew. Up to this point I have only used Photoshop and my own file system to keep track of my images.

Aperture might give me the real power of true orgainisation and power over my images.

We will see when it comes out....

West

[chrisutley]

Every PRO that buys this app will have a copy of Photoship on their HD, and that copy of PS won't be going anywhere. I think most of you don't really understand what this application is. It is most certainly not a PS replacement. Pros are going to use this app to get their photos organized and ready for final touches in PS.

It might have some overlap with iView Media, but I think that really depends on how many photos you work with. If you have tens of thousands of photos, and you are constantly referring back to older shots then you might have a hard time parting with your iView - BUT you could still use Aperture in your workflow.

[chrisutley]

Every PRO that buys this app will have a copy of Photoship on their HD, and that copy of PS won't be going anywhere. I think most of you don't really understand what this application is. It is most certainly not a PS replacement. Pros are going to use this app to get their photos organized and ready for final touches in PS.

It might have some overlap with iView Media, but I think that really depends on how many photos you work with. If you have tens of thousands of photos, and you are constantly referring back to older shots then you might have a hard time parting with your iView - BUT you could still use Aperture in your workflow.

[chme6583]

The worst thing out this program is 4 to 6 weeks, I want it now.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Westfoto

I have heard some horor stories with people who use iVew.

What horror stories - I use it (*knocks on wood*) and so far it seems fine. It does the catalog hierarchy that i need. It looks like Aperture fills my needs more then iView does, and it is querky but what app isn't.

On a side note I noticed a day later that iview announced version 3 of the app, still looks like it will come up short against aperture.

Mike

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

What horror stories - I use it (*knocks on wood*) and so far it seems fine. It does the catalog hierarchy that i need. It looks like Aperture fills my needs more then iView does, and it is querky but what app isn't.

On a side note I noticed a day later that iview announced version 3 of the app, still looks like it will come up short against aperture.

Mike

But at 50% the price, don't forget.

[Westfoto]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

What horror stories - I use it (*knocks on wood*) and so far it seems fine. It does the catalog hierarchy that i need. It looks like Aperture fills my needs more then iView does, and it is querky but what app isn't.

On a side note I noticed a day later that iview announced version 3 of the app, still looks like it will come up short against aperture.

Mike

Mike there have been some color space issues and Metadata issues. I would stay away from it for now. I am not sure what the color space is for Aperture also, so that worries me. Everything I see of it makes me smile though, just wondering about the color space, and if there are choices like there are in Photoshop. I want to be sure that I do not loose any color in my images as color is the most important thing other that light.

West

[rslifka]

What excites me most as a budding photographer is the potential for getting out of what the EDA/CAD industry refers to as "point tool flows" (i.e. multiple tools Frankensteined together to form a workflow). What I have now is pretty ugly - a lot of scripting (shell / AppleScript) combined with some small Java programs. All so that I can easily organize, edit, and publish my images.

Aperture has me in its crosshairs. Prosumer/serious amateur who does very little post-processing (hue/sat, contrast (curves/levels), etc.) with a growing archive of images. While I've been using Photoshop for over a year, I'd drop it in a heartbeat. We've had some good times together, but it's a real love-hate relationship

I don't rank or categorize my images because Bridge doesn't provide a "big picture" (pardon the terrible pun) view of my assets; only the propellerhead file-based approach. I've been putting off the evaluation of library management software mainly because the idea of learning yet another new application turns my stomach. Hell I didn't even finish the one book I read on Photoshop once I learned enough to get my images edited.

My early assessment of Aperture's price is that it's a steal. It combines my most commonly used editing features from Photoshop with what looks like a quality Apple UI and workflow support. Of course we'd all love to pay less, but for me I place very little value on the potential of Photoshop I'll never realize.

Rob

[Demonhood]

reminder: it's only $250 for those of you with ties to education.

[devmage]

Originally Posted by rslifka

What excites me most as a budding photographer is the potential for getting out of what the EDA/CAD industry refers to as "point tool flows" (i.e. multiple tools Frankensteined together to form a workflow). What I have now is pretty ugly - a lot of scripting (shell / AppleScript) combined with some small Java programs. All so that I can easily organize, edit, and publish my images.

Aperture has me in its crosshairs. Prosumer/serious amateur who does very little post-processing (hue/sat, contrast (curves/levels), etc.) with a growing archive of images. While I've been using Photoshop for over a year, I'd drop it in a heartbeat. We've had some good times together, but it's a real love-hate relationship

I don't rank or categorize my images because Bridge doesn't provide a "big picture" (pardon the terrible pun) view of my assets; only the propellerhead file-based approach. I've been putting off the evaluation of library management software mainly because the idea of learning yet another new application turns my stomach. Hell I didn't even finish the one book I read on Photoshop once I learned enough to get my images edited.

My early assessment of Aperture's price is that it's a steal. It combines my most commonly used editing features from Photoshop with what looks like a quality Apple UI and workflow support. Of course we'd all love to pay less, but for me I place very little value on the potential of Photoshop I'll never realize.

Rob

It's funny you think it is a steal because plenty would disagree. I think it looks like a awesome application. I'm just an amateur and I would love it. It is a tad expensive for the non pro I think though. From what I've read of Pro's opinions they think it looks good possibly but the price seems steep. I kept seeing people compare it to the cost of photoshop which is similar though photoshop can do quite a bit more at image processing. I guess the key is to look at the app for what it is, work flow with some photo processing.

In the demo they talk about how you can backup your images and I see mention of finding your images. I'm wondering if the application will manage the photos you have to archive off your HD some where. If it could give you a way to archive and find the images again later, like doing a search and finding the thumbnail with metadata and which disk you archived it to that would be a HUGE help to the photographers where I work.

[inkhead]

aperture makes me want to cry finally somebody gets it, it's too crazy it's so good, it's heaven.

[CaptainHaddock]

Originally Posted by JLL

Your GPU isn't supported.

Well, it should be. My iMac G4 has the same video card as the first two iMac G5 revisions, and those machines are supported.

[JLL]

No they aren't - the iMacs that are listed are the May 2005 models with the Radeon 9600 GPU.

[jasong]

What do people think of this app for those of us who aren't shooting in RAW? It's organization and publishing tools look light years ahead of iPhoto (although I suspect they will migrate down sooner than later - iLife '06 can't be too far off) and while I am not a pro by any stretch of the imagination, I do have a lot of images that are growing monthly that I would like to do a little more than iPhoto allows.

Of course this question is mostly academic right now as my TiBook can't handle Aperture and I won't replace it until the new Intel based Macs are released.

[slugslugslug]

This thing really does look amazing. I wish it'd been around when I got my first digital Camera (the venerable Canon PowerShot G3). I shot a lot of RAW then, because it seemed like the best idea, and wound up with tons of big files that were a pain to organize quickly enough to decide which'uns to keep. I eventually got frustrated enough with a lack of workflow that I started using my camera way less often, and shooting JPEG. Then iPhoto's RAW capabilities came around and they were k a bit half-baked.

Now Aperture's out and looks effin' brilliant, but I'm hesitant to spend the money on it 'cause a) I don't know how it'll do on a 2.0 GHz iMac and b) I might not get back into the habit of shooting a lot..

But it seems definitely worth it for non-pros who already shoot a lot and can get the edu discount, RAW or no.

[devmage]

I know Apple isn't one for trial periods but it almost seems necessary with this App. Everyone says "man it looks good but..." and I think the only way to counter act that is let you try it for a few weeks. Kick the tires, make sure it performs acceptable on your machine and works with your camera.

[dazzla]

I'd love to see that happen. A lot of people are unsure of how it'll perform because of the high requirements, a trial period would definitely be cool. But completely out of character for Apple...

[slugslugslug]

Originally Posted by dazzla

I'd love to see that happen. A lot of people are unsure of how it'll perform because of the high requirements, a trial period would definitely be cool. But completely out of character for Apple...

They did it with Motion and Shake. I don't know why they picked those 2, but it seems plausible that it was a similar situation, where they realized that a lot of potential customers wanted to make sure it was the right tool before taking the plunge..

Anyway, there's precedent, so it doesn't seem entirely out of the question that they'd offer a trial version..

[dazzla]

Excellent, I didn't realise they'd done any trial software before. Here's hoping!

[innerimager]

I'm a pro photographer. I can't tell you how fast I ordered this program. It is light years ahead of anything on the market just in terms of it's brilliant and efficient ways of organizing, comparing, selecting and making web pages out of shoots that generate 500 to 2000 (or more) images. But there's more.....it handles Raw files as quickly as other programs do JPG's. Many photographers with pro DSLR's avoid Raw even though image quality and ability to correct exposure/white balance mistakes is better just because it slows workflow way too much. Again, this is when we are dealing with LOT's of images like at weddings or sporting events. It appears that the Raw processing ability will kill several major competitors, including those made by Nikon and Canon for their cameras. But the proof is in the quality of the conversion, and in this not all raw converters are equal. It will have to deliver. If it does, look out. Already, for the first time in my experience, I'm seeing long threads on pro forums from PC users calculating how much it will cost to go Mac as they can see the major savings in time, thus dollars, it will bring. Pro photographer? you'll want it. Others....apple stock looks better and better all the time......Peter

[SoClose]

I'm not a pro photographer and have no idea what a professional's workflow is like, but even I want this application. Apple really put the "A" team on the UI and workflow design for Aperture. Can you imagine if that same team was given free reign to redesign the Finder? Aperture's UI looks "futuristic" enough that I wouldn't be surprised to see it show up on some TV show like "24" or "CSI"!

[innerimager]

Originally Posted by SoClose

I'm not a pro photographer and have no idea what a professional's workflow is like, but even I want this application. Apple really put the "A" team on the UI and workflow design for Aperture. Can you imagine if that same team was given free reign to redesign the Finder? Aperture's UI looks "futuristic" enough that I wouldn't be surprised to see it show up on some TV show like "24" or "CSI"!

I agree with all you say. I also amend my post to read "avid photographer - you'll want Aperture!

[kcmac]

Originally Posted by innerimager

Already, for the first time in my experience, I'm seeing long threads on pro forums from PC users calculating how much it will cost to go Mac as they can see the major savings in time, thus dollars, it will bring. Pro photographer? you'll want it. Others....apple stock looks better and better all the time......Peter

Peter. Could you provide a link or two to these types of forums. I know I would be interested in seeing these types of discussions.
Thanks.

[devmage]

Originally Posted by kcmac

Peter. Could you provide a link or two to these types of forums. I know I would be interested in seeing these types of discussions.
Thanks.

Someone posted this link in the Art & Graphic Design forum. It is a good one where you see what pro's think of it. They also have some links at the bottom of it to other forums where people are talking.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/message...html?tid=17858

[kcmac]

Great, thanks.

[innerimager]

Originally Posted by kcmac

Peter. Could you provide a link or two to these types of forums. I know I would be interested in seeing these types of discussions.
Thanks.

The one I'm especially citing is the digital wedding forum. (digitalweddingforum.com) However you need to join and pay a dues to log in, as well as showing a wedding web site. Trust me, they are very excited! best....Peter

[nycdunz]

what's a good digital cam that has RAW? I'm not talking about the professional digital SLR's, but a very good point n shoot camera that supports the RAW format. I plan on using aperture for photo touchup, color correction, etc.... looks like a great app... a lot better than PS's built in camera raw plugin...

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by nycdunz

what's a good digital cam that has RAW? I'm not talking about the professional digital SLR's, but a very good point n shoot camera that supports the RAW format. I plan on using aperture for photo touchup, color correction, etc.... looks like a great app... a lot better than PS's built in camera raw plugin...

Nikon D50, D70, Canon Eos 20d

There's others, take a look atDpreview this site has reviews, glosseries to define terms you may not be familar with, a lively forum site where people will answer your questions.

Mike

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Westfoto

Mike there have been some color space issues and Metadata issues.

Coincidence or not, I tried importing directly into iView, instead of dragging the images to a folder and then importing, and the color space on the imported images were all messed up, so I guess I have to amend my prior statement.

Mike

[LightWaver-67]

I guess I'll throw MY unsolicited 2¢ into the ring...

I have not had a chance to see this app up-close, all I've seen is the product pages & movies on Apple's site and I can honestly say:

"I've got to have it!!!"

I haven't even GOTTEN my Nikon D70 yet (getting it next week) but as a designer and knowing TONS of people that shoot professionally... I hear and talk about a lot of things surrounding digital photography.

I had already made my decision to go with the Nikon D70 and then I saw the announcement... it felt like Apple was releasing it JUST FOR ME! Heheheh...

I continually try to walk the line between unbiased designer (I use WinPCs at my job) and Mac-zealot, fanboy, Apple-geek that drank the cool-ade™. I mean... I am normally an objective and rational person... but at times it's difficult for me to discern whether I love Apple's products because they truly ARE so great and innovative, as well as refined and well-thought-out...

- OR -

Do I just like everything Apple does because I've been bitten... gotten caught in the now-famed RDF emitted by one Stevie Ray Jobz...?

I would LIKE to think it's because of solid and tangeable criteria that are of value to me when making hardware and/or software decisions. I own iWork... but still prefer to use Word™, Font Book is useless so I need Suitcase™, etc... but MOST of their software and hardware just "make sense" to me.

Back on topic - Do I like Aperture because Apple put it out and because Steve SAYS it's good...? I don't think so. As I looked at all the info... it TRULY answered all my questions and resolved ALL of my worries about shooting RAW on a nicer camera (which was my goal before even KNOWING about this app.). It kinda made me chuckle... like "Holy crap... they just erased ALL of my concerns in one fell-swoop (sp?).

This is in NO MEANS a Photoshop "killer" or replacement. It will work well WITH it... it just depends on your needs. I will ALWAYS need Photoshop for compositing, web design, layered pieces, etc... I just can't do without it.

Others have refered to it as iPhoto on steroids... ummm... kinda, I guess... I would actually ignore the order of release and say iPhoto is a VERY rudimentary and stripped-down Aperture.

And to those who think that having an Aperture Express doesn't fit the plan...? I disagree. Someone gave the example as saying Aperture would be Logic Pro and iPhoto would be Logic Express... that would be incorrect. In THAT analogy, iPhoto would be Garage Band. There would (should) be PLENTY of room for a stripped-down version of Aperture that doesn't get as bogged in the workflow and extensive metadata areas. Dunno... it's quite possible...

ANYHOW...

I am sure other companies have applications that can "handle" RAW files... I'm sure they're pretty good... I know that some camera manufacturers distribute their OWN utilities to manage the media for THEIR cameras...

But THIS application is about USING the photos and removing all the obstacles... it supports MANY RAW formats... it traverses all of the chasms that piecemeal solutions created... it allows you to focus on the creative and not the technology and steps required just to have access to the images.

So... here we are again... Do I love the application because I'm a zealot...? Did I blindly join the cult and accept this as a "good thing" just because I was told so...? OR... Am I truly thinking clearly and see the merits of a great implementation of software that solves an existing problem that no one else wanted to deal with head-on...?

Either way, the end result is... I plan on buying it before the end of the year. I'll probably test-drive it at a local Apple store first, but inevitably... it will be on my machine before year's end.

Sorry for the long rant... I am just so excited to get my new camera now!

- Peace

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by nycdunz

what's a good digital cam that has RAW? I'm not talking about the professional digital SLR's, but a very good point n shoot camera that supports the RAW format. I plan on using aperture for photo touchup, color correction, etc.... looks like a great app... a lot better than PS's built in camera raw plugin...

You also wanna take a look at Olympus, e. g. the E-500 or the E-300. I haven't seen an E-500 yet, but the built quality is (judging from my Olympus and according to the reviews) superior to Canon's 350D/Rebel XT.

I can also recommend the D70(s), very solid piece of engineering.

[Gee4orce]

Originally Posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn

There won't be an "Aperture Express", they will simply migrate some features down to iPhoto.

iMovie was around long before Final Curt came on the scene, and they still managed to squeeze Final Cut Express in-between. I suppose you could argue that there's simply more feature in a video app, and that allows for more differentiation.

Maybe what Apeture is now will become Apeture Express, when Apeture itself grows more and more into a Photoshop replacement ?

[CaptainHaddock]

Originally Posted by JLL

No they aren't - the iMacs that are listed are the May 2005 models with the Radeon 9600 GPU.

I see, thanks for noticing that. I guess I have to put a new camera and a new Mac on my Christmas list! :/

[rslifka]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

Nikon D50, D70, Canon Eos 20d

There's others, take a look atDpreview this site has reviews, glosseries to define terms you may not be familar with, a lively forum site where people will answer your questions.

Mike

...except those are all SLRs (I believe he asked for p&s suggestions)

The higher end Coolpix (Nikon) and PowerShot (Canon) P&S cameras all have RAW. They're all so good, just take your pick. The PowerShot S50 can shoot RAW and it's so old it's been discontinued.

If you're buying your first one, you're in luck. The newest P&Ss have just hit the street and have massive 2.5" LCDs.

Rob

[tie]

Fuji F810 has RAW. Lots of cameras do. Even if you don't need RAW (but you'll love it the first time you take a picture of a waterfall or something and the JPEG highlights are blown but saveable in the RAW file), RAW capability is a good sign that maybe some thought was put into the camera interface.

[tooki]

Does anyone know the current ship date for Aperture? I am dying to pick it up at school ($150 hello! )

tooki

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by tooki

Does anyone know the current ship date for Aperture? I am dying to pick it up at school ($150 hello! )

Is that an institutional rate or something? The usual educational rate is US$249.

P.S. Apple has posted an Aperture Compatibility Checker. To my surprise and contrary to what Apple says are the minimum requirements, my iBook (2005) is supported.

[Cadaver]

My order is in... hurray for edu pricing ($249, btw).

[monkeybrain]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Is that an institutional rate or something? The usual educational rate is US$249.

P.S. Apple has posted an Aperture Compatibility Checker. To my surprise and contrary to what Apple says are the minimum requirements, my iBook (2005) is supported.

ahhh my new late 2005 Mini doesn't pass their test - how annoying when an iBook does. Maybe it will run anyway. Are they going to release a demo?

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by monkeybrain

ahhh my new late 2005 Mini doesn't pass their test - how annoying when an iBook does. Maybe it will run anyway. Are they going to release a demo?

The iBook's Radeon 9550 supports the necessary hardware Core Image features for Aperture. The Mac mini's Radeon 9200 does not.