[MartiNZ]

Glass-covered screen - better
Keyboard - better
Unibody - better, and no plastic rim
Mag-latch - better, and again fewer holes for dust and such
Ports all on left - better

Nah. I'm sticking with my early 2008 for now but I won't be complaining the next time I consider it worth upgrading!

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Are you serious?

Yep.

You've never seen this problem on a titanium PowerBook? Chronic issue on all machines with removable keyboards.
All iBooks had this problem, as well.

I'll assume you're correct about the TiBook, because I never had one of those. However, I've got a 12" iBook right next to me, and it doesn't have any of the keyboard indentations on the screen despite having the lid closed most of the time. My family has a couple more of these iBooks, and haven't had this problem (mind, they have had other problems not related to the screen, but that's for another thread).

My 15" PowerBook (alu) had a glued/screwed keyboard, but left nice little oily keyboard outlines in the screen when I carried it around without a cloth in between, anyway. Happened with my 12" PowerBook, as well. The design has not changed at all in the MBP.

My brother has a 12" PowerBook, and last I checked he didn't have this problem (when he got it, I was concerned about him getting a cloth because I was using an old Pismo at the time, which definitely needed one. His turned out fine without it, though).

Thus far, my Feb 2008 MBP has had no problems with imprints on the screen either.

On all plastic MacBooks, the little ledge at the bottom of the keyboard will leave an oily imprint on the screen. I don't know if this would scratch the screen over time - I use a cloth to make sure it doesn't happen.

My sister has a plastic MacBook - I'll have to look at it next time I see her to see if this is the case or not.

[iREZ]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

"Blown out of proportion"?

I was responding to a claim of "ZERO complaints" about industrial design.

Black oxidation may not have been as widespread on the MacBook Pros as on the alu Powerbooks, but it was there:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=279750
http://www.mactechnews.de/gallery/thread.html?id=57522

Keyboard screen imprints I've addressed in the post above.

Dip in the topcase above the optical drive:
Had it myself on my 15", and I've seen it on rather a lot of others. In most cases, not enough to cause problems.

they're two different machines you cant compare issues with the powerbook and lump it in with the mbp because they look the same. the case has been changed from the powerbook to the mbp and again from the early 2008 mbp to the current offering. lumping the powerbook with the early 2008 mbp is the same as lumping the early 2008 mbp with the current offering. who's to say the new mbp's wont show signs of pitting later on... they've only been out for a month now.

as for the screen keyboard imprint issue, i remember fondly the days of going to ikea and asking them for their furniture bumpers (lil plastic nipples) so i could keep my g4 12" screen from touching the keyboard but i have yet to see any of those issues on any macbook or macbook pro and i've handled quite a few of each. this is what i was talking bout blowing out of proportion, i don't remember ever reading bout this issue with the macbook/pros ever.

as for the dip, on my third mbp and have yet to create a dip, this doesn't mean that it doesn't happen...i'm just saying i have yet to experience it nor have i read anybody mention it here on the boards.

i'm not saying you're fabricating these issues, in fact i'm sure they were present on your previous machines... what i'm saying is that just because one mbp has 20 dead pixels doesn't mean ALL mbp's from the same generation exhibit the same issue, hence the "any links?" request i had above.

and for all those that think it's a step forward for apple to cut our options and take away our flexibility (glossy screen and fw issues) get a grip. latest and greatest doesn't always hold true. would i buy a new mbp for the same price as my refurb... sure i would, i'd be crazy not to... but that doesn't mean the old refurb is worse in anyway, and the new mbp's cost an extra $650 in comparison (def not worth it if you ask me, you'd be better off getting the low end mb and a refurb imac for the cost of a mbp, portability on the go...giant screen with some umph at home, but hey thats just my opinion).

[flabasha]

I was very happy when the new MBP's came out - because I was in the market for a new laptop (was on a 1ghz Ti!)... and I HATED the look of the new one so much, I could comfortably buy the early 2008 MBP for about $600 less.

It's all personal of course, but I would have to say that the new MBP is the ugliest laptop Apple has ever made, and may ever make. It looks like the screen was taken from one computer, and the base from an entirely different computer. For a company obsessed with uniform design aesthetics it's almost shockingly messy. But then, I'm a whore for design, and it's just one man's opinion...

And by the way, as an owner of the early 2008 MBP, I think it's design is only OK. Personally, the subtle two-tone of the Titaniums was better, but maybe I'm just nostalgic...

[Meovv]

The rule never to buy a rev a.0 of anything Apple makes basically still holds. If I were needed to buy a laptop now, I would no doubt get the latest version of the old style MBP from the refurb section. Then when rev b comes out I would sell it on eBay and get a new MB or MBP.

[Maflynn]

I disagree with that sentiment. True you can be on the "bleeding" edge at times but some of the changes are such that it makes little sense to hold off on purchasing a laptop (or any other product) because its the first revision. I've purchased many revision A products from apple and the clear majority of them have been defect free. Getting a second or third revision is no guarantee that it will be defect/bug free either.

There are exceptions, such as the revision A of the MBA but the MacBook Pro changes are so radical to hold off purchasing one especially if you need a laptop

Just my $.02

[asyrum]

thanks for the replies to my inquiries. i think i figured out what i want.

just 1 other quick q... how do you know that the refurbished macbook pros on apple's website are the early '08s? maybe that's a stupid q 'cause the specs might be an indicator but i havent been following all the mb's and mbp's until just now (when the need for one was present).

[0157988944]

they normally do not put up refurbished items older than 1 generation. But the most recent generation is 2.4 - 2.5 GHz, I believe.

[Scooterboy]

First of all, I said that I've had zero complaints about my PowerBook G4 17". I was only referring to my personal experience with the machine.

I'm perfectly happy with the choice that I made in upgrading from my PowerBook G4 to my refurbished MacBook Pro 2.6 Ghz 17" and it was an easy decision to make once I saw the new MacBooks. The performance difference between what I bought and the latest MacBooks is negligible and a vast step up from my older hardware, which I've already sold for a decent amount of money for a nearly 5 year old computer.
However, I'll say that if Apple continues down this road of expensive, shiny bling then they have lost me as a loyal customer. It's not only the retraction of features such as multiple FW ports, it's not only their willingness to sacrifice performance for ultimate thinness (yes, a much better video card GPU and quad core CPU could be in the new MacBook Pro had not the ultra-thin design dictated only mid grade, cooler components be used), and it's not just that I hate looking at shiny things all the time...
The truth is that Apple's appeal for me is waning, and I've been a loyal (my friends would say zealot) Mac customer and fan since the mid 1990's. I've owned and bought: Mac 512k, PowerBook Duo, iMac G3 DV, iBook G3 500 Ghz, iBook G3 600 GHz, eMac, dozens of Airport Extreme base stations, PowerBook G4 and now this MacBook Pro 17" 2.6 GHz. I have convinced many friends to buy Macs over the years. But Apple is acting more like Microsoft these days and that is losing my loyalty.
Apple has included something else in their new MacBook Pros that my refurb lacks: built-in hardware DRM, which would render movie nights with movies streaming from my laptop to my friend's projector difficult and anything from iTunes impossible.

"Apple's new MacBook lines include a form of digital copy protection that will prevent protected media, such as DRM-infused iTunes movies, from playing back on devices that aren't compliant with the new priority protection measures.

The Intel-developed technology is called High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) and aims to prevent copying of digital audio and video content as it travels across a variety of display connectors, even if such copying is not in violation of fair use laws."...
Read on at AppleInsider

[analogika]

Originally Posted by iREZ 

they're two different machines you cant compare issues with the powerbook and lump it in with the mbp because they look the same. the case has been changed from the powerbook to the mbp and again from the early 2008 mbp to the current offering. lumping the powerbook with the early 2008 mbp is the same as lumping the early 2008 mbp with the current offering. who's to say the new mbp's wont show signs of pitting later on... they've only been out for a month now.

Um...both of the links I posted (from a quick google) ARE of the MacBook Pro.

[analogika]

The HDCP inclusion is pretty annoying, and guarantees that I won't be purchasing any content for a long time that is copy-protected.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

they normally do not put up refurbished items older than 1 generation. But the most recent generation is 2.4 - 2.5 GHz, I believe.

Sure they do. Heck I can buy a 2.16 GHz Merom MBP at the refurb store right now. That was the very first C2D MBP released back in 2006. Of course you'd be quite silly to buy it for the proposed $1299 now, but it's definitely still there.

The stock at the refurb store changes quickly. It pays off to check several times.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by analogika 

The HDCP inclusion is pretty annoying, and guarantees that I won't be purchasing any content for a long time that is copy-protected.

Seconded.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by MartiNZ 

Glass-covered screen - better
Keyboard - better
Ports all on left - better

I don't agree that those three features are superior. I like matte, I don't like the black chicklet keyboard, and I don't really see how the ports all being on the left is helpful.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I don't agree that those three features are superior. I like matte, I don't like the black chicklet keyboard, and I don't really see how the ports all being on the left is helpful.

I agree the first two are really a matter of personal preference, but I'm surprised you don't see how having the ports all lined up together on the left side isn't a huge improvement.

Have you ever taken a look at the one existing MBP docking station? Yeah, that one. That sells for $300 or so. Or have you tried using a MBP in closed-lid mode with peripherals? It's a mess. And a huge waste of desk space. Not to mention the fact that on previous MBPs the lock slot is placed in such a way that an inserted lock will render the adjacent USB port nearly useless.

I have several MBPs with ports on both sides. Moving them all to the same side is a huge improvement in terms of usability.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Meovv 

The rule never to buy a rev a.0 of anything Apple makes basically still holds.

Although I do not disagree with that notion in principle, the Late 2008 MB(P)s seem to be a very bad example for that notion.

Except for the trackpad missing clicks (which has now been dealt with in a software update) I have not heard of any rev A issues so far. Sure some issue might still pop up, but if they haven't surfaced within six months chances are they will still be around in rev B.

[blackmur]

dunno if it's the best.... but in my opinion is definitely better than the latest one....
i'm sure the new one is faster etc.... but it's not a pro DESIGN ..... if i think of it as a macbook 15 then ok i can accept that... but the pro is always been the coolest the newest the more revolutionary machine in the production.... i was expecting much more... also considering the design of the macbook air....

[kylef]

It all comes down to preference, really. I have the same performance that I would have in the 15" E2008 MacBook Pro that I do now in my 13" L2008 MacBook. The portability plays a massive role for me and the new MacBook just wins.

With regards to actual specifications, the all-in-one trackpad, unibody design and durability all plays a great role.

[freudling]

CharlesS:

The Pismo was just the beginning. The Lombard had impressions, mind you. The Tibooks were horrid. A widespread problem on them. All of mine were afflicted. The big "secret" to keyboard impressions is that, they are not permanent, although many think they are. If you have eye glass cleaner or something, just spray on the screen and rub fairly hard, they will disappear in about 10-15 seconds of wiping. This coming from someone who used to buy and sell Pismos and TiBooks, and refurbish them.

[Scooterboy]

My MacBook Pro 17" sits where my PowerBook did, on a stand, with, on the right, USB mouse, M-Audio Black Box FW400, external HD FW800, and on the left, iPhone USB, Apple Pro keyboard (full size non-chicklet) USB. Putting all the ports on one side only has left less room for ports, and some had to be dropped. I much prefer having more I/O options than fewer. My MacBook Pro also has dual link DVI that doesn't require a $99 adapter to connect to a DVI port on a projector. And I can stream anything I want to through the port with no DRM or other constraints.
A new MacBook would require me to buy several adapters and dongles and daisy chain my HD with my Black Box, not the best setup for recording music sessions. A new MacBook Pro 2.8 GHz with the dongles comes out to nearly $1000 more than what I paid for my 17" MacBook Pro 2.6 GHz. Is a new case design and shiny screen and 200 extra MHz worth that? No. Not for me. Especially with the reduced I/O.
I'm thinking about buying a desktop computer within the next year or two, but I think I'll build a PC instead of buying an iMac or Mac Pro and run Linux, XP, Vista, and OS X on it.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by freudling 

CharlesS:

The Pismo was just the beginning. The Lombard had impressions, mind you. The Tibooks were horrid. A widespread problem on them. All of mine were afflicted. The big "secret" to keyboard impressions is that, they are not permanent, although many think they are. If you have eye glass cleaner or something, just spray on the screen and rub fairly hard, they will disappear in about 10-15 seconds of wiping. This coming from someone who used to buy and sell Pismos and TiBooks, and refurbish them.

The Lombard came before the Pismo, and the TiBooks I already granted, because I haven't ever used one of those machines. The AlBooks, iBook G4s, and MBP do not have impressions.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The Lombard came before the Pismo, and the TiBooks I already granted, because I haven't ever used one of those machines. The AlBooks, iBook G4s, and MBP do not have impressions.

The AlBooks *do*, and the dual-USB iBooks *most definitely* do (having the same basic keyboard design as the Pismo/Lombard/Wallstreet/tiBook).

Most people were using screen protectors by that time, though.

Either way, it's not really important - my point was merely to counter the patently false claim that the original (pre-unibody) alu MacBook Pro line was completely devoid of design flaws and/or not subject to justified criticism.

I could add proneness of the display to flexing upwards when closed (slightly bent displays are common), proneness of the bottomcase to buckling above the DVI connector, fraying power supply cables (arguably part of the Book design), and probably a handful of other (equally minor) issues.

Nothing major, though.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The AlBooks *do*, and the dual-USB iBooks *most definitely* do (having the same basic keyboard design as the Pismo/Lombard/Wallstreet/tiBook).

Then how come the three or so iBook G4s and the one PowerBook G4 12" in my family have no keyboard impressions on their screens, despite being several years old and having been quite abused (and certainly haven't had any screen protectors)?

[amazing]

I just checked my 12" 1.33 AlPB and it does have keyboard imprints on screen...

The one main annoying thing about my early 2008 MBP is the front-loading disk drive.

Other than that, the lovely matte screen, adapters included in the box, abundance of ports, these and more make it a wonderful laptop--especially since I got it discounted-new, much less than the illuminated keyboard unibody MB.

Best ever? Well, it's the best I've ever had, shouldn't that be enough?

[Brien]

I'm glad I waited for the redesign. Sure, I paid more. I got the 2.8ghz and could've gotten a top-of-the-line previous generation MBP for what I paid, but I was waiting for them to adopt the magnetic latch and a sturdier case. I was never a fan of the latch, and was glad to see it go. I'm not too fond of the glassy screen, but for 99% of the time it's not a deal-breaker. Neither was the loss of FW400, since I had an external FW800 HDD and just daisy-chain my 400 devices off of that.

For ME, I like the new MBP. But there's plenty of people who don't, and that's perfectly fine.

[Kodachrome_Project]

Another vote for the new machine, for my needs, it is much better. Fit and finish are outstanding.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Then how come the three or so iBook G4s and the one PowerBook G4 12" in my family have no keyboard impressions on their screens, despite being several years old and having been quite abused (and certainly haven't had any screen protectors)?

Maybe they haven't been carried around in tight bags for all that time? I don't know.

Again, no big deal - I'm just saying that it *does* happen, and not at all infrequently in my experience. YMMV.

Originally Posted by amazing 

I just checked my 12" 1.33 AlPB and it does have keyboard imprints on screen...

Thanks for verifying that.

Can we let it stand at that now?

[Le Flaneur]

Originally Posted by Kodachrome_Project 

Another vote for the new machine, for my needs, it is much better. Fit and finish are outstanding.

I agree completely. The whole laptop seems so much more solid (and better-looking) than its predecessors. There's no turning back.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Then how come the three or so iBook G4s and the one PowerBook G4 12" in my family have no keyboard impressions on their screens, despite being several years old and having been quite abused (and certainly haven't had any screen protectors)?

CharlesS: you should revisit the definition of a hasty generalization: just because your units did not suffer from keyboard impressions, does not mean others do not. My iBook G4 14" 1.33 did have keyboard impressions: it is a real problem. However widespread hard to say, but it exists.

As for the Lombard, I know it came before the Pismo, that is why I said "mind you", meaning, the Lombard was probably the start of it, not the Pismo. When Apple went thin with the Lombard, this problem started to occur.

[turtle777]

So, I'm in the market for a new laptop.
I could either get the new MacBook (2.0 GHz) for about $ 1,250 at MacMall or a refurb MBP (2.4Ghz) from the Apple Store.

Looking at the specs, the MBP beats the MB n the following areas:
* bigger HD (by 40GB)
* faster CPU (by 400 MHz)
* bigger screen (15"4 vs. 13"3)
* backlit keyboard
* FW 800
* Express card slot
* no HDCP crap
* GPU

The MB beats the MBP in the following areas:
* weight (4.5lbs vs 5.4lbs)
* lower power consumption (60 watts vs. 85 watts power supply)
* front side bus (1066 MHz vs. 667 MHz)
* new trackpad

What advantages am I missing with the new MB ?

Spec-wise, the MBP seems to be the better choice.

-t

[Simon]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

* front side bus (1066 MHz vs. 667 MHz)

Just for the record, the 2.4 GHz MBP has an 800 MHz FSB.

I think the main advantage the MB offers is its lighter weight and more compact case. If you need to use you notebook a lot in coach or you want to carry it around all the time that might be valuable. Of course the MB comes with the new awesome case too. But personally I think right now with the awesome deals you can get on refurb "Early 2008" models, it's hard not to get one over a MB.

[aloner]

I had ordered a new MBP but, before it was shipped, found a great deal on brand new "Early 2008" MBPs (350€ discount). Cheaper than the new MBs!. This and the mixed feelings I had after trying out the new "all in one" trackpads made me cancel the order and bought one right away.

[amazing]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

So, I'm in the market for a new laptop.
I could either get the new MacBook (2.0 GHz) for about $ 1,250 at MacMall or a refurb MBP (2.4Ghz) from the Apple Store.
-t

MacMall has a pretty terrible reputation for honoring its rebates--you can google it. You're much better off getting the $50 rebate from amazon.com

another advantage the previous gen MBP has is the cupped keys rather than the chicklet--you know when you're spot on the keys. Controversial opinion, natch, since everybody is adjusting to the chicklet keys, and therefore saying "how nice" they are.

I bought the prev-gen MBP and then an esata express card for $38 bucks and a Macally usb/esata 2.5" case for $37 and put a 320 GB HD in it for $57. It's way faster than my fw-400 cases! The downside is esata doesn't supply power like fw, so you have to also use a usb-power cord (provided with case.) There are triple interface cases out there but they cost way more.

After my MBP "burn-in" period I'll be switching out the 200 GB internal HD for the above 320 GB HD.

My only pet peeve so far in the optical disks ejecting into my lap...

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by amazing 

My only pet peeve so far in the optical disks ejecting into my lap...

Pure filth!

Please, think of the children...

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by amazing 

My only pet peeve so far in the optical disks ejecting into my lap...

Look on the bright side - I used to have an iMac that did that, where the optical drive was side-mounted near the top of the rather tall machine. If I didn't put my hand in front of the drive to catch a disc as it ejected, it would fall down to my desk, bounce a few times, and eventually land in the tangled mess of cables and dust bunnies behind the desk, getting scratched up a bit in the process.

To whatever engineer at Apple designed that thing... great job.

[amazing]

Yep, Apple design sometimes produces big mistakes. I'm coming from a 12" PB where the optical disk drive is on the right side--which is what the present models went back to. Personally, I think that with a little engineering pizazz even this model could've been designed to eject to one side or other.

Real question is why it took Apple so many models to finally get it right.

[iREZ]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Maybe they haven't been carried around in tight bags for all that time? I don't know.

Again, no big deal - I'm just saying that it *does* happen, and not at all infrequently in my experience. YMMV.



Thanks for verifying that.

Can we let it stand at that now?

cough cough

[osxtasy]

As evedent from the Apple forums, the NEW nvidia 9600gt's a failing JUST LIKE THE 8600GT's were. APPLE QUALITY IS NON-EXISTENT ANYMORE. Face it, it's a FACT, and it will bite them in the ass soon enough.

I mean seroiusly, do they even do Q/A testing anymore, or just ship 'em from Shanghai with no testing of any batches or production runs????

JOBS should be fired!!!!

EVIDENCE: http://discussions.apple.com/thread....7221&tstart=45



Glad i havnt upgraded from my original 2006 model which I've already replaced fans in myself (thank you ifixit)

[Spheric Harlot]

There's about six different issues discussed in that thread, and at least some of them only occur under Windows, and NOT under Leopard.

Apart from the fact that you appear to think that Apple actually MAKES the nVidia chips, I think you might want to sit back down and reconsider your position.

[Maflynn]

I suspect that osxtasy is either a troll or another member who wants to try to act trollish. Either way, he adds nothing to the discussion and thus should be ignored.

[osxtasy]

Troll you say huh?? Ok, I'll play your game. How many mac's do you own, and of what caliber?? I have a 2007 MacPro and an Original Macbook pro CTO, so it's pretty safe to say I buy the top end machines from Apple. I think that certainly allows me the benefit of being able to speak unconditionally about the quality issues that are obviously becoming widespread. Even if it doesn't, how is it wrong to make sure that as many Apple users as possible are actually aware of potential problems, which are obviously related to Apple's LACK of quality control??? How is it wrong????

In addition, I never thought Apple makes Nvidia chips, but I DO know that if Apple was taking the right steps in Quality Assurance testing, that a lot of these issues would have been caught BEFORE shipping these new units, ESPECIALLY being that they already knew about the 8600gt overheating/bad substrate issues.

What I don't understand is why so many Apple users will forgive Apple for ANYTHING, instead of realizing that if you would let them know how unacceptable sub-par quality is for machines that carry this much of a price premium, we would all be better off in the long run. Don't you realize they will keep doing this over and over if they are never held accountable for such poor quality controls???

Anyway, just my 2 cents......

[Maflynn]

In your very first post here you start slamming apple and you wonder why you're being called a troll

[Cold Warrior]

I don't see anything overly trollish with his first post and his second one was an ok reply, although they're not necessarily on topic. Serious product defect discussions should go in another thread.

Let's all try to make this thread about the topic at hand, not bashing current products.

[amazing]

Discounting continues: You can now get the 2.4 Penryn for $1300 after rebate, same price as the entry-level unibody MB.

http://www.pcconnection.com/IPA/Shop...04#Rebate15846

And I didn't see any trolling either--off topic venting, yes.

[CharlesS]

He's not trolling - the NVidia GPU is a legitimate issue (and a rather dire one) with the MacBook Pro. I was hoping that the 9600M would have fixed the issues, though.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Now that I have my own Early 2008 MBP, I'm wondering if I'm the only one who assumes that Apple will never produce a better laptop. The matte option in particular, as well FW 400 (in addition to 800) and the non-black-chicklet keyboard, really stand out to me as being far better than what Apple has transitioned to. I know that future MBPs will be even more powerful, but I don't know if that will compensate for the features lost in the new line.

Naahhhhh!!!

Your so wrong. If you don't like the glare, buy a sheet of matte plastic to apply over the screen.

[x user]

I for one had a ton of problems with the Rev.A MBP i bought, but most of those were addressed by the Rev.C or D. I'm looking at a last gen refrbd or a new MBP. I can't justify the extra cost, so I'm probably gonna be going with a refrbd. Although I must say that my 1ghz 12" PB was my favorite laptop apple has made to date. For it's time, it WAS the bomb.

[iREZ]

12" PowerBook is one of the finest machines apple has ever created period, just look at my thread back in the day to see how many LOVED it (12" PowerBook users unite! is the title).

[Simon]

Originally Posted by iREZ 

12" PowerBook is one of the finest machines apple has ever created period, just look at my thread back in the day to see how many LOVED it (12" PowerBook users unite! is the title).

I had several 12" PBs and remember those discussions very well. I can assure you I spent a fair amount of time defending the 12" against all kinds of complaints in various threads. While I thought it was a wonderful notebook (and it was definitely ahead of its time) it was by far not without controversy. Things like it was too fat, too hot, had only one RAM slots, didn't have enough soldered RAM, sucked in terms of GPU, VGA instead of DVI (on rev A), too low screen resolution, always one generation behind the other PBs in terms of specs, etc., etc.

I hear a lot of people now mentioning how great the 12" was. But truth is, back in the day there was at least the same amount of complaining about it as with any other current Mac. That's just the way these boards are.

[OreoCookie]

Personally, I didn't think the 12" PowerBook was that great of a machine (I used the 1 GHz model for a period of about six months), I always thought it was an iBook with a metal enclosure. It was only marginally lighter (by about 100 g), the screen wasn't really that much better and speedwise, there wasn't much difference either (compared to a G4 iBook, of course).

I loved my 800 MHz 12" iBook, though, I still yearn for a machine that small. (Unfortunately, the ProBook's screen is just that much better compared to the MacBook )