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bshort · Oct 27, 2003, 02:02 AM

Is there any way to customize OS X so that windows can be resized as in Windows? I.e. grabbing any border and clicking and dragging rather than having to click on the lower right hand corner.

swiz · Oct 27, 2003, 10:38 AM

Thats a big negative buddy.

intastella · Oct 27, 2003, 11:31 AM

No. Simple reason that Windows has no concept of: "Why have several ways to do something when one will do?".

bshort · Oct 27, 2003, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by intastella:
No. Simple reason that Windows has no concept of: "Why have several ways to do something when one will do?".

Actually, in Windows (XP, NT, 9x, etc.) you can grab any side or corner of any window (for the most part) to resize, so I'd have to say it's Windows that has multiple ways of accomplishing the same task.

It's interface snafus like the window thing that keep me from jumping wholeheartedly into OS X.

NetworkShadow · Oct 27, 2003, 01:06 PM

There's really no point to be able to resize a window from any edge. It's just as fast and far more simple how it works on a Mac.

bshort · 01:53 PM

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
There's really no point to be able to resize a window from any edge. It's just as fast and far more simple how it works on a Mac.

Yeah, well, I don't really care if you think it's pointless or not. I was asking if there was a way to do it since I'm primarily a Windows user and I'm interested in switching.

And I don't want to get into a holy war argument here, so I'll just say: I think you're wrong.

NetworkShadow · Oct 27, 2003, 02:07 PM

Ok we understand why you're asking. I wasn't looking to start a "holy war" anyway.

Switcher = cool

If you just try it I'm sure you'll see why we think it's pointless to be able to resize from the sides too.

mrbiiggy2 · Oct 27, 2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by bshort:
And I don't want to get into a holy war argument here, so I'll just say: I think you're wrong.

Your opinion is in the minority here, your original post was flamebait.

There's no way to do that, as it would have to be built into finder.

bshort · Oct 27, 2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by mrbiiggy2:
Your opinion is in the minority here, your original post was flamebait.

There's no way to do that, as it would have to be built into finder.

Actually, it was an honest question. I've looked around a bit for an answer and, not finding one, thought someone here might know if there was some external utility or undocumented feature that gave this functionality, especially considering that it was once a feature in OS X Server.

So do all Mac users consider UI questions to be flamebait or is it just you?

NetworkShadow · Oct 27, 2003, 03:05 PM

I really think this would be the least important interface difference from Windows. I wouldn't worry about it much if I were you.

Mac users tend to be quite touchy when it comes to the Windows UI, and very defensive of the Mac UI. Though we can be critical of the Mac UI at times, like with Panther for example.

iamnotmad · Oct 27, 2003, 04:43 PM

I agree with you bshort - I use windows for work and all OSX at home and I think that this would be helpful. I resize windows from edges regularly on windows.

To say that it's a good thing to NOT give people this option seems kind of obsurd and apologetic.

I still very much enjoy OSX, way more than windows.

Hi I'm Ben · Oct 27, 2003, 06:31 PM

yes resizing from any corner is a nice thing. Those who think it isn't, or overkill are just applefan boys and everyone knows that. People that can't admit that windows might have some useful things that mac doesn't have.

eme · Oct 27, 2003, 06:37 PM

Actually i switched a little over a year before, and i've never noticed this, it was never something that bothered me, because it fel very intuitive to do it that way... Once you try you'll just feel it right

lenox · Oct 27, 2003, 06:46 PM

Actually, I too find the lack of resizeable borders in OS X a big interface blunder. OS 9 could do it...

Also, the borders would help your eye easily separate windows, etc. Right now, it's a mess.

Hi I'm Ben · Oct 27, 2003, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by lenox:
Actually, I too find the lack of resizeable borders in OS X a big interface blunder. OS 9 could do it...

Also, the borders would help your eye easily separate windows, etc. Right now, it's a mess.

Expose

mrtew · Oct 27, 2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by lenox:
Actually, I too find the lack of resizeable borders in OS X a big interface blunder. OS 9 could do it...

I'm not going to boot up in OS9 just to check but I really don't think that's true. I know OS9 had draggable borders which were very very nice in my opinion, but not resizable. I love Macs more than anyone and hate Windoze thru and thru, but I have to agree on this one... there is no reason not to have the resizable borders and many reasons to have them. Not holding my breath though.

intastella · Oct 28, 2003, 12:39 AM

Actually, I too find the lack of resizeable borders in OS X a big interface blunder. OS 9 could do it...

That is definitely not the case. OS 9 had window borders only.

Why do people want this? We already have the zoom (or "maximize" button) and the resize thumb at the bottom right of windows. I think this probably covers 95% of resize problems with one click. The other 5% can be solved by a resize and move of the window.

So why add a feature for features sake? It's just going to confuse new users and it's nearly useless to anyone but Windows converts.

I just don't see the point.

MindFad · Oct 28, 2003, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by bshort:
It's interface snafus like the window thing that keep me from jumping wholeheartedly into OS X.

Hahaha, maybe you shouldn't bother with OS X if something like resizing windows in any direction is your thing.

At no point in time on my OS X machine have I ever wanted or needed to resize a window in another direction. I don't see the point in it. I don't need to do it in every direction when I can do it from one position, and then move the window's position to have the changes take effect�if I absolutely need to do that. I'd rather do that than do it from four directions separately.

Oh, and OS 9 did not have resizable borders like Windows. I actually did like being able to grab borders in OS 9, though. Ah well�expos� wins now.

NetworkShadow · Oct 28, 2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by MindFad:
Hahaha, maybe you shouldn't bother with OS X if something like resizing windows in any direction is your thing.

Well really if it bothers you that much there'd be no point in switching for you... All the other Mac UI differences might drive you insane. Mac would just be Windows if it had all the same UI.
But something so small is really stupid to use as an excuse not to switch.

At no point in time on my OS X machine have I ever wanted or needed to resize a window in another direction. I don't see the point in it. I don't need to do it in every direction when I can do it from one position, and then move the window's position to have the changes take effect�if I absolutely need to do that. I'd rather do that than do it from four directions separately.

Ya, that's what I think about it. There's just no need for it.

Oh, and OS 9 did not have resizable borders like Windows. I actually did like being able to grab borders in OS 9, though. Ah well�expos� wins now.

Ya there never was Windows style window resizing in any Mac OS that I can remember. Again Mac wouldn't be Mac if it had all the Windows UI things like that.

If you're switching there are things that are going to be different, and you'll just need to get used to it. You aren't going to be able to make Mac feel like Windows and there's no reason to.

lookmark · Oct 28, 2003, 07:17 PM

bshort, as someone who's used both OS X and Windows each a fair amount:

The answer is no. Applications in OS X currently can be only be resized by either dragging the widget from the lower-left hand corner, or clicking the zoom widget (which resizes the window size to the contents of the window). So far there are no 3rd-party hacks to add window-border resizing either.

So if that's the deal-breaker for switching, you should definitely stay with Windows.

That said, personally speaking, I find Panther so far a superior experience to XP, it boggles the mind. Unless you're *really* hung up on this one issue, I strongly recommend worth checking out OS X.

bshort · Oct 28, 2003, 07:42 PM

Just to be clear, it's not that this is a complete deal-breaker for me, but the fact that there's not a workaround or hack that allows the user to add this functionality appears to be part of a bigger issue I have with OS X, namely: Steve Jobs has decided what your desktop and user experience will look like and no amount of user hacking will change that, since your hacks will just be broken in the next version of the OS.

Compared to Windows, where a desktop is provided, but I can hack away at it to my heart's content, and code up new behaviors and features as much as I want.

Yes, consistency can be nice, but being able to add features to fit the way you work is even nicer.

NetworkShadow · Oct 28, 2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by bshort:
Just to be clear, it's not that this is a complete deal-breaker for me, but the fact that there's not a workaround or hack that allows the user to add this functionality appears to be part of a bigger issue I have with OS X, namely: Steve Jobs has decided what your desktop and user experience will look like and no amount of user hacking will change that, since your hacks will just be broken in the next version of the OS.

Compared to Windows, where a desktop is provided, but I can hack away at it to my heart's content, and code up new behaviors and features as much as I want.

Yes, consistency can be nice, but being able to add features to fit the way you work is even nicer.

We are just as un happy with Steve's views on GUI customization, but he hasn't stopped us yet. Also Steve's UI isn't too bad, it's just the theme limitations that get to me. I don't think we'd be using Macs if the UI sucked....

Mike S. · Oct 28, 2003, 10:01 PM

Also Steve's UI isn't too bad, it's just the theme limitations that get to me. I don't think we'd be using Macs if the UI sucked....

According to one HI guy I've talked with online (doesn't work at Apple) user customization is a bad thing.

A really good HI design, according to him, is not just well designed to begin with; it's also not to be changeable by the user except in the most minimal ways.

tdgrmsn · Oct 29, 2003, 02:26 AM

Guys - come on - "I don't think it's useful" or "I can't see the point" is not an explanation, it's an opinion. Is it similarly unimaginable that someone may have different work habits than you?

I miss this ability too - and the lack of any (option even) for window borders. The main time this bothers me is arranging lots of terminals - I spend a large amount of time at the command line on different servers, and being able to resize and nicely arrange terminals is *much* easier with windows adjustable from any side. And overlapping terminals on OS X disappear into each other. Borders would help a lot.

Yes, people can get used to anything. That's not the point though. I think bshort is essentially right in saying "Jobs has spoken", there shall be no other options.

And while I'd prefer more explicit theming allowance and expert options, at least another visual style would be nice. Aqua or graphite is a bit weak. And ugh. Metal. I can't wait until that fad blows over at Apple...

lookmark · Oct 29, 2003, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by Mike S.:
According to one HI guy I've talked with online (doesn't work at Apple) user customization is a bad thing.

A really good HI design, according to him, is not just well designed to begin with; it's also not to be changeable by the user except in the most minimal ways.

Sort of true. I don't know about "minimal" -- that's pretty draconian -- but there's definitely a trend in UI where instead of figuring out what works best, a plethora of options are provided. (And then of course there are places where options are really useful and necessary.)

I don't know about everyone else, but for me the dialog box of dozens and dozen of "options" is a sign of bad design. Tweaking is fun but endless options with no clear philosophy of use is depressing as hell.

Anyway, in the end it's not "Steve's UI"; OS X is a UI designed by a team of Apple's dedicated, focused, (mostly) details-obsessed UE team. Of course it's not perfect; but it has personality. And of course Jobs has input on the UI; he has his fingerprints over everything at Apple. But it's no more "Steve's UI" than Ive's designs are "Steve's cool designs".

Yes, consistency can be nice, but being able to add features to fit the way you work is even nicer.

Yes, both are important. I think having the flexibility to adjust one's work habit to an UI philosophy is important as well.

Final word from me -- if you insist on the ability to tweak every last component of the GUI, honestly Mac OS X isn't for you. You'll be happier with Windows or, better still, some flavor of Linux.

lenox · Nov 3, 2003, 01:15 PM

Here's a possible situation that might make someone want resizable borders, and this has happened to me MANY a time.

Imagine opening a window or a program that decided to make it's window so big that it's resize corner is obscured by the dock. Jaguar's finder does this often, and many other programs do, too.

In fact, I remember watching a video where an Apple developer was demoing the new Aqua interface (this may have been back in the 10.0 days), and he ran into the very same problem, and was quite stumped for a bit.

I felt embarassed as I watched him kind of halt and stutter...and then akwardly drag the window over so the dock would not be in his way, only to have to grab that tiny little resize widget..