[ort888]

Okay, so minor pet peeve here, but what's the deal with people using computers for years and never even bothering to change the apps in the dock?

I see this all the time when I'm helping people. That stupid little Grey Spring help icon will still be sitting there in the dock 4 years after someone bought a Mac. Icons for Garage Band, iMovie, etc... applications that have never been opened... just sitting there.

Not only that, but seeing the default background and default settings for EVERYTHING.

I guess I just find it almost unfathomable that someone who spends thousands of dollars on something and uses it every single day can't even be bothered to care the slightest bit about kicking around under the hood.

These aren't stupid people. Not all of them anyway. But it seems like at least 2/3 of all Mac users I know are guilty of this.

[The Final Dakar]

This is how lazy and/or stupid people are.

[olePigeon]

I blame Sarah Palin.

[Madison]

It's obviously due to hate filled right-wing talk radio.

[Laminar]

My parents still can't figure out why Skype and Firefox always mount disk images when they try and open them up.

[osiris]

Probably the same type of person that keeps the stickers and tags on stuff they buy for years and years, until they fall off all encrusted with dust and nicotine stains..

[ort888]

The same guy who I was helping had about 6 .dmg files on his desktop as well. Including silverlight.dmg, silverlight.dmg 2 and silverlight.dmg 3.

I asked him... "uh, you don't need these right?"
He replied, "yeah, I think so, to watch movies. I think I need those"
I highlighted all of them and hit command+delete and said "nope, buh-bye" before he could say another word.

[The Final Dakar]

To be fair, I have silverlight up to date and on certain sites it continues to tell me I'm out of date.

[osiris]

ya know what else? people that download stuff, decompress the dmg, then run the app from the dmg. Then if they reboot, they can't find the app. So they redownload, and repeat the idiotic process until their desktop is full of sequenced dmgs.

[ort888]

Silverlight requires at least 3 .dmg files to be on your desktop to function.

[osiris]

I heard 4, depending on the season.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

My parents still can't figure out why Skype and Firefox always mount disk images when they try and open them up.

Very few people ever do.

In fact, that simple complete ****-up in the application install process - the fact that disk images need explaining, yet were the default software distribution medium - is the single biggest reason why the App Store is necessary.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Okay, so minor pet peeve here, but what's the deal with people using computers for years and never even bothering to change the apps in the dock?

I see this all the time when I'm helping people. That stupid little Grey Spring help icon will still be sitting there in the dock 4 years after someone bought a Mac. Icons for Garage Band, iMovie, etc... applications that have never been opened... just sitting there.

Not only that, but seeing the default background and default settings for EVERYTHING.

I guess I just find it almost unfathomable that someone who spends thousands of dollars on something and uses it every single day can't even be bothered to care the slightest bit about kicking around under the hood.

These aren't stupid people. Not all of them anyway. But it seems like at least 2/3 of all Mac users I know are guilty of this.

You know, most people never customize their cars, either.

They set their radio stations, and they play their own iPods and CDs through the stereo. That's it.

They just USE them.

And oddly, they spend more than TEN TIMES as much money on their cars as on their computers. You'd think they cared to waste their time worrying about stuff that's irrelevant to them.

[The Final Dakar]

Not adjusting your dock would be like never adjusting your car seat or steering wheel.

I don't mind any of that. I mind people who are actually afraid to learn about the apps. In the old days (i.e. pre-MacOS X) it seems people weren't afraid to look in the menu bar to see all the commands and try them out to see what happened.

These days, if I even mention "menu bar" they say something like "you mean that thing at the bottom of the screen."

I think that over the years computers have become easier to use but more difficult to use well.

In the past they were just hard enough to make people take classes, or buy books, and learn about more of the system, how it worked, and how to explore software. They ended up with more computing knowledge because of it. Nowadays, they plod along, unproductively in ignorant bliss because they managed to find the Mail and Safari icons on their own.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Not adjusting your dock would be like never adjusting your car seat or steering wheel.

No. The metaphor wasn't that good to start with, but volume and screen brightness are adjusted, as is screen angle. And funnily enough, most people who don't give a shit about customization still move the mouse (which translates a lot better to the steering wheel than the dock, don't you think?).

As long as everything I need is on the Dock - and all iLife apps, internet stuff, Office/iWork are on the Dock by default, why the **** bother to figure out whether, let alone *how*, I can change stuff?

As for default desktops - I never bothered applying the decals I got to my last car, either.

[P]

Even the simplest computer features are too complicated for most people. News at 11.

The Dock is NOT natural, because it doesn't follow established paradigms. How many other places can you drag and drop to a toolbar? Yes, the Windows taskbar, but noone does that either. The adjustment feature is simply not discoverable.

As for the disk images...You're not supposed to kick on those already down. Everyone knows it's a bad process, and it's being replaced.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Very few people ever do.

In fact, that simple complete ****-up in the application install process - the fact that disk images need explaining, yet were the default software distribution medium - is the single biggest reason why the App Store is necessary.

Yes, but this argument could also be abused into pleading a case for an iOS-style computer that removes the user, preferences, or 'settings' from the equation completely. No thanks.

There are just too many people out there that don't know what the heck they're doing, really.

[Salty]

Hence why they came out with the Mac app store.

My dad still had the default background, though I've cleaned out his dock for him. It's shocking times how middle aged people don't want to get used to computers. My parents both tend to be willing to lean how to do what they want to do and that's it. There's no sense of adventure in them when it comes to computers. Then again they're both critical of the fact that I'd rather pick up the end of a friend's car instead of figuring out how to work the jack. (Small car.)

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Brien 

Yes, but this argument could also be abused into pleading a case for an iOS-style computer that removes the user, preferences, or 'settings' from the equation completely. No thanks.

There are just too many people out there that don't know what the heck they're doing, really.

Bingo. Also, a lot of users lack curiosity about the computing tech they're using. They use it in a way that lets them get by, but they don't explore or learn anything much past that point.

Disk Images aren't the problem. They're very easy to use, but for those who can't handle manual app installation/management, the App Store comes to the rescue as an extra layer of abstraction/simplification.

[ort888]

People are just terrified of screwing anything up. There is this feeling of helplessness associated with computing like they are trying to tame a wild horse.

A lot of people also don't care. They just don't find technology interesting like I assume most of us do.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

To be fair, I have silverlight up to date and on certain sites it continues to tell me I'm out of date.

I have the latest version of Flash and it tells me "Missing plug-in" for Flash content, so I have to constantly reload websites like Hulu or YouTube.

[bstone]

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

My parents still can't figure out why Skype and Firefox always mount disk images when they try and open them up.

This.

I like how CCC (or maybe it's SuperDuper!...I forget) works - if you try to launch it off its .dmg, it pops up a window saying "you can't do that! Click this big button to install to your Applications folder!".

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Brien 

Yes, but this argument could also be abused into pleading a case for an iOS-style computer that removes the user, preferences, or 'settings' from the equation completely. No thanks.

There are just too many people out there that don't know what the heck they're doing, really.

That's the reality, though, and that's why iOS will be the default computer interaction model in five years' time.

People are no longer radio-savvy, because they no longer know how a radio works, having to no longer adjust the crystal themselves. Who cares? Is Howard Stern on?

"Computer-savvy" is going away as computers are no longer hobbies, but fixtures, libraries, tvs, record collections, etc. The number of people who own private computers is *much* higher than it used to be.

"Real" computers aren't going anywhere, and I'm pretty sure that those machines will have to continue to offer access to lower-level stuff.

[PB2K]

and trackpads on the slowest setting.
a screen that dims after a minute
a mighty mouse that goes into dashboard when you grab it

and they turn off their macbook after use

it must be a horrible computer with this

[Spheric Harlot]

The Slow trackpad and instant screen-dimming are nor defaults though - those are preference.

But the turning-off thing should give you the biggest clue where this fear is coming from:

Non-savvy Windows users (i.e. pretty much everybody) have been conditioned for decades to NOT ****ING TOUCH IT as long as it works. And shut down the machine, because sleep DOESN'T WORK (power savings worries aside). You have to actively encourage Switchers (and total noobs) to playfully explore, because on, er, "normal computers" (now that's a pet peeve of mine), playfully exploring is a sure-fire recipe for having to call in the computer-savvy friend.

[Atheist]

I have a friend whose Software Update icon has been bouncing in her dock for months! She'll sit there and shop on the internet, answer her email, the whole time that thing is bouncing and she doesn't even notice it. I'd go insane.

I think people like us are the exception, not the norm, when it comes to our interest in all things computing.

[Spheric Harlot]

Exactly.

If you're on a forum discussing computers, you're not the general market.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Okay, so minor pet peeve here, but what's the deal with people using computers for years and never even bothering to change the apps in the dock?

Easiest answer: because it's not obvious that the dock CAN be changed.

[osiris]

while we're bitching: Most users are unaware that by default, a new Mac will have iTunes sharing on, Guest Account sharing on, Bluetooth sharing on, and scan for Apple TVs + anything else that transmits. I can understand Apple's stance that this'll make the user experience seamless, but they should also include a little note saying that this stuff is on, and show how to turn it off.

[P]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Easiest answer: because it's not obvious that the dock CAN be changed.

An idea: IE's bookmarks bar is by default filled for links to various MS sites but also with one called "Customize Links", which simply opens a window where you can do just that. Perhaps Apple should add something like that?

[Brien]

That would be nice, but in all reality, Spheric is right. I wouldn't imagine Apple going too far out of their way when they probably plan on shifting the masses to the iPad anyway. But good idea.

As long as 'real' computers stick around (they'd better!) I don't have much to complain about. I just hope those 'real' computers come from Apple and not somebody else.

[Spheric Harlot]

Oh I hope so too. I'd certainly hate to have to buy a "normal computer" (grrrrrrrrr) for actual work.

[Big Mac]

On a slightly different (OT) note, I don't know how so many people can be rather computer illiterate and yet choose Android as their cell phone platform. Don't get me wrong, Android is a really good iOS alternative, but it's both more powerful and much more complex. I started using Android for the first time outside of a demo display capacity a few days ago because my brother got one, and it's far more complicated than the iPhone. It's also substantially less elegant.

Are the people who struggle with concepts like the Dock and disk images generally less technologically capable than other tech laymen, and that's why they're Apple buyers? Or do you think there's a roughly equivalent proportion of clueless Windows users? And are those types of people able to cope with the complexities of Android phones?

[Spheric Harlot]

There's a huge number of clueless Windows users. The vast majority, probably.

They buy because they've never used better than "works, dunnit?" or are convinced the other options aren't viable, or are surrounded by ignorant and maliciously stupid "experts" (fairly common).

That's changing, though.

Also, much runs via price/obscured costs.

[Big Mac]

I know there are clueless Windows users, but I also know from experience that the way Windows handles application installations is downright terrible. At best it's arguably simpler because most things are done by opaque installers, but very often there's a lot more complexity involved than just downloading and running an exe. Therefore on average I'd assume clueless Windows users are at least a little more technically inclined to be able to deal with the complexities of Windows management than the clueless Mac users who can't handle disk images.

[Brien]

I doubt that, and I also think there are clueless iOS and Android users, too.

[torsoboy]

Installing apps on a mac is kind of confusing. I just started using a mac on a semi-regular basis a couple of months ago, and there is nothing in the installation process that helps you know what's going on. And there is no way to find an application that you have installed after it is installed (unless you already know about the apps folder somehow). I don't understand the disk images either. Some applications seem to use them when they are run, and some don't. It's fairly confusing.

On a PC you just download the installer, run it, and then follow the instructions. It tells you where it is installing it, it asks if you want icons on the desktop, and it tells you where to find it in your shortcut bar or startup menu. The mac has nothing to help you out.

The dock is similar. There are some apps on it, but you don't know how or why they were put on it. Even if I didn't want the app, there are no hints about how to remove it from the dock or how to uninstall it from the hard drive. On a PC there is an easy way to do things... you click on the uninstaller, and it uninstalls it. The mac may be just as easy (or easier) once you learn it, but there are no built-in hints on how to do things on it.

So far, I am not buying the claims that the Mac is easier to use. Sure, using the stuff that came installed on it is easy, but if you want to do anything else on it there is a learning curve.

[Spheric Harlot]

^ there you go.

Certainly not a stupid person, and certainly not willfully ignorant.

And yet, the consistency and pleasantness of the Mac interface, its discoverability and safe explorability, the fact that there's an actual *concept* behind it rather than a hodge-podge of "well, it works, dunnit?", the fact that its fundamental assumption is that the user is neither completely stupid nor software engineer (Windows tends to assume both) - all these things are completely obscured by the boneheadedness of these issues.

How is torsoboy supposed to know that if an application mounts a disk image when you launch it, that means that you haven't actually installled it?

Torso: DMGs are virtual disks, like iso files on Windows, and are treated like CDs: you mount them, install the software (usually by dragging it to the Applications folder) and then eject it and throw it away. DMG software distribution was planned differently but was changed to the current system due to security concerns with the original concept.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

So far, I am not buying the claims that the Mac is easier to use. Sure, using the stuff that came installed on it is easy, but if you want to do anything else on it there is a learning curve.

I'd say the basic installation of the MacOS is easier to use than Windows, but Windows is easier once you want to start customizing it (adding/removing software, changing settings, etc).

There are so many little secrets about how to use the MacOS; even long-term Mac users often hear about something they didn't know about every now and then. In fact, if it wasn't for the eagerness of Mac users to share what they've learned, I doubt the MacOS would be considered easy to use at all, despite the reality-bending efforts of Apple's marketing team.

[Spheric Harlot]

Without wanting to get into a Mac-vs.-PC flamewar, that's bunk.

[angelmb]

I like how CCC (or maybe it's SuperDuper!...I forget) works - if you try to launch it off its .dmg, it pops up a window saying "you can't do that! Click this big button to install to your Applications folder!".

And this is just another reason why I prefer SuperDuper! over any other available backup solution.

[PB2K]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

I have a friend whose Software Update icon has been bouncing in her dock for months! She'll sit there and shop on the internet, answer her email, the whole time that thing is bouncing and she doesn't even notice it. I'd go insane.

that's so funny

I bet she had the (fugly) leopard "space" background unchanged too

[ort888]

Half the people in my department have that default space background.

[Spheric Harlot]

Does it hinder their work?

I'm willing to bet that if asked, they'd tell you that the photograph of their kids on the cubicle wall is a hundred times more important than a dinky computer screen background that's obscured by other content 99% of the time.

[PB2K]

it's horrible ! i deleted all the leopard desktop pictures two days ago from the library and i learned they are called " aurora" which makes it even more distasteful.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

There are so many little secrets about how to use the MacOS; even long-term Mac users often hear about something they didn't know about every now and then. In fact, if it wasn't for the eagerness of Mac users to share what they've learned, I doubt the MacOS would be considered easy to use at all, despite the reality-bending efforts of Apple's marketing team.

Preposterous. That could not be further from the truth. In fact, what you just described is Windows. Windows is far, far more complicated. Disk images are cake compared to what one has to do to administer Windows. Windows software installers are often much harder to deal with because they often don't come directly as exes but rather compressed rar files that have to manually be dealt with before you can get to the installer. And even if they do come as direct exes, you still have to go through multiple screens of stupidity to get your app installed, as opposed to just dragging and dropping a single application bundle into the folder of your choice from a disk image, then dismounting the disk image. There's no way to claim disk images are harder. No way whatsoever.

I speak from experience: I've been on both sides of the fence after using Windows 7 as my primary OS for around six months. Windows is much harder to administer. I'm still coping with the fact that Windows is downright primitive when it comes to disk cloning and multi-boot options. Something that is dead simple, built-in and always reliable on the Mac is completely FUBAR on Windows because of its stone age architecture.

Windows 7 is harder to use than OS X on all these fronts and more. Any Mac user who believes otherwise is both incompetent on OS X and simultaneously accustomed to the crapitude of Windows. And I have no sympathy for that kind of incompetence. Anyone in that camp should sell the Mac he or she owns and go back to Windows full time, because the superiority of OS X is wasted on such a person.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Does it hinder their work?

I'm willing to bet that if asked, they'd tell you that the photograph of their kids on the cubicle wall is a hundred times more important than a dinky computer screen background that's obscured by other content 99% of the time.

Nah. It doesn't really bother me at all. It's just weird.

I usually just make mine a dark grey. At work anyway.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Preposterous. That could not be further from the truth. In fact, what you just described is Windows. Windows is far, far more complicated.

I'm not saying Windows is easier. I'm just saying that MacOS isn't quite as dead simple as it's painted to be. And, if there weren't all sort of undocumented interactions, there would be no need for the macosxhints.com website.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Windows software installers are often much harder to deal with because they often don't come directly as exes but rather compressed rar files that have to manually be dealt with before you can get to the installer.

I don't know that I've ever encountered a Windows installer that was compressed in a .rar file that wasn't pirated through Bittorrent.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

And even if they do come as direct exes, you still have to go through multiple screens of stupidity to get your app installed, as opposed to just dragging and dropping a single application bundle into the folder of your choice from a disk image, then dismounting the disk image.

I don't know if you've noticed, but more and more software for MacOS are coming with multiple screens of stupidity in order to get your app installed ... including software from Apple (YouTube - iLife 11: Unboxing and Installation). What's more, Windows software doesn't *need* to go through an installer, it's just the way that 99.999% of the software makers decide to go.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

There's no way to claim disk images are harder. No way whatsoever.

No way to claim that, except perhaps to read the first half of this thread. I guarantee you that almost no Windows user is launching the installer every time they want to run the app.