[lpkmckenna]

The Ars Technica article is here.

I live in Canada, so this doesn't affect me. I pay for 6GB of access on my iPhone (with Rogers), and I can tether without any extra charges. Any why should there be? I paid for my 6GB, and I should be able to access them however I want.

If I paid AT&T for internet access for my home, then accessed it thru my iPhone thru WiFi, would AT&T then demand extra charges? No? Then why the reverse? Oh, that's right: greed.

[The Godfather]

The problem is that most tethering USians signed a contract with AT&T without more of a gun-to-the-head than a measly $400 subsidy.
Bad move. Get your iPhone 5 at full price, or in the gray market next time.

[Wiskedjak]

From what I've been told by engineers at Rogers, they can only guess that you're tethering based on higher than expected volumes of usage for a mobile device. From what I've read about the AT&T crackdown, if you say you use Netflix on your device they'll back down.

[mduell]

AT&T is going after users who are on unlimited plans and tethering.

The network planning for an unlimited plan for use on a smart phone is very different than the planning for someone tethered to a laptop.

On a side note, one of the big British ISPs has already proposed additional charges to use your iPad on your home internet connection.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

From what I've been told by engineers at Rogers, they can only guess that you're tethering based on higher than expected volumes of usage for a mobile device.

Uhm, yeah, maybe in Canuckistan, they haven't heard of Deep Packet Inspection.

Unless you use a VPN, they can clearly know what kind of data is flowing, and some of that just doesn't get generated by iOS apps.

-t

[Wiskedjak]

Given the reports that AT&T is backing down when people say they're using high consumption services like Netflix, I don't think they're using deep packet inspection.

[Cold Warrior]

It's probably easy enough to do without DPI as well. If I were trying to ID the 'data hogs' on a network, I'd start by looking at huge usage per month, then filter that by usage per resource host (remember, on 3G, at&t is providing DNS lookups as well, so they know every site, server, and ad host your app and mobilesafari are pulling). Large data hosts (netflix, hulu, etc.) may have separate servers or subdomains for web vs iOS app traffic, perhaps in the initial visit or setup, and/or their CDNs may have that sort of separation.

DPI may be too close to wiretapping. 'Responsible network management' with usage + host analysis is probably more defensible. Stop logging any part of the url to the right of the TLD and they don't even need to know the exact resources.

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Given the reports that AT&T is backing down when people say they're using high consumption services like Netflix, I don't think they're using deep packet inspection.

If too many people use that excuse, at&t will probably wait a bit to see if its scare tactics make a difference. If not, they'll take the remaining population of 'data hogs' and just cut them off, like sprint did when some subscribers were roaming too often and costing sprint too much in roaming charges.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Given the reports that AT&T is backing down when people say they're using high consumption services like Netflix, I don't think they're using deep packet inspection.

Even if they don't know, it only a matter of time, and everyone knows it

They are done with people "leeching" tethering service.

-t

[Eug]

That's stupid. If they don't want high usage, then they shouldn't sell high usage plans.

P.S. Some people who got the no-tethering warning weren't actually tethering, so it seems AT&T may just be resorting to scare tactics at the moment.

P.P.S. My plan includes tethering, but it's only 1 GB, at CAD$20 (or US$20.33). So far I've never hit 1 GB, but that's because I don't stream video (aside from the occasional embedded news video or YouTube) and I don't stream audio either. The only times I tether are when I'm on the road (once a month?) or when my home internet access goes down - lately once a week, the bastards.

P.P.P.S. Apple's iPhone 4 Personal Hotspot feature is totally awesome.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Eug 

That's stupid. If they don't want high usage, then they shouldn't sell high usage plans..

High usage plans ? You mean unlimited plans.

Nothing stupid about it. It's a purely financial decision. The bandwidth consumed by those few has to be paid by everyone else. F*ck that.

They won't say anything if you are over what's considered "normal" now and then. But if you are consistently well above the norm (probably because that cheap ass substituted high speed internet with a unlimited 3G data plan), you'll get rightfully kicked in the nuts.

And they HAVE stopped selling unlimited plans, because of that.

-t

[Eug]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

High usage plans ? You mean unlimited plans.

Nothing stupid about it. It's a purely financial decision. The bandwidth consumed by those few has to be paid by everyone else. F*ck that.

They won't say anything if you are over what's considered "normal" now and then. But if you are consistently well above the norm (probably because that cheap ass substituted high speed internet with a unlimited 3G data plan), you'll get rightfully kicked in the nuts.

And they HAVE stopped selling unlimited plans, because of that.

My understanding is that their unlimited plans were not unlimited anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And if you pay for say a 2 GB plan, you should be able to get 2 GB, tethered or not. In fact, that's the way it works in other countries.

Originally Posted by Ars article

AT&T currently offers either a $15/month 250MB 3G data plan for smartphone users, or a $25/month 2GB plan. If customers want to tether the legit way, they must subscribe to the 2GB data plan and pay AT&T another $20 for the privilege of sharing their smartphone's 3G connection with a computer or hotspot, at which point the monthly data cap goes up to 4GB. iPhone users who jailbreak their devices have long been able to tether without paying anything extra to AT&T—it's one of the main reasons people jailbreak—making those iPhone users particularly susceptible to AT&T's latest crackdown.

Like I said I have a 1 GB plan for $20, and tethering is included. I live in Canada, where wireless access costs were actually traditionally higher, so this just seems like a unreasonable cash grab on ATT's part.

[Wiskedjak]

indeed. how I use the data coming into my phone shouldn't matter to my carrier.

also, it's interesting that they seem to be targeting iPhones and not Android phones that have been able to act as wifi hotspots for awhile now.

[Eug]

BTW, on Fido / Rogers they don't allow tethering on a 500 MB plan. I don't agree with this, but at least here I can sort of understand it. With a 500 MB plan, it's pretty easy to go over with only very light tethering, so people on 500 MB plans would be hitting their limit on a regular basis, esp. since it's quite common to hit 300 MB a month with no tethering at all.

With a 1 GB requirement for tethering (which is the plan I have), there is a lot more breathing room. That why I think it's ludicrous to not allow tethering on a 2 GB iPhone plan on AT&T.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Uhm, yeah, maybe in Canuckistan, they haven't heard of Deep Packet Inspection.

Unless you use a VPN, they can clearly know what kind of data is flowing, and some of that just doesn't get generated by iOS apps.

Yes, they have DPI here in Canada, and use it for throttling. But what data are you referring to?

Originally Posted by turtle777 

High usage plans ? You mean unlimited plans.

Nothing stupid about it. It's a purely financial decision. The bandwidth consumed by those few has to be paid by everyone else. F*ck that.

They won't say anything if you are over what's considered "normal" now and then. But if you are consistently well above the norm (probably because that cheap ass substituted high speed internet with a unlimited 3G data plan), you'll get rightfully kicked in the nuts.

And they HAVE stopped selling unlimited plans, because of that.

It was incredibly short-sighted of them to sell unlimited anything. They should have foreseen tethering coming. The problem with these ISPs is that they create their own problems and blame the consumer.

If they just sold bandwidth at the cost it costs them + reasonable profit + amount to invest in infrastructure improvement, then there wouldn't be a problem.

[Cold Warrior]

The problem is a mix of incompetence and marketing BS. The people that run telcos are dinosaurs; they were so far behind on understanding what iPhone meant, then Android followed and reinforced iPhone usage trends and capabilities until their thinking caught up. In the early phases of this change, still lost in the sauce with their dinosaur thoughts, they sold unlimited plans because they wanted to sign up customers for lucrative data plans and contract extensions. I'm sure they knew they could always renege, but it was probably in the back of their minds, pushed back by something similar to, 'Who'd ever need more than 512k of RAM and 1 GB HDD space?'

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Eug 

And if you pay for say a 2 GB plan, you should be able to get 2 GB, tethered or not. In fact, that's the way it works in other countries.

What do you mean by "should" ?

With AT&T, you agree a TOS with 2GB of data w/o tethering.
It really doesn't matter what it "should" be, and if it "should" include tethering or not.
It does NOT, AT&T makes it clear from the beginning, so there should be no crying about it.

-t

[Brien]

I have to say, I think we are headed down a dark path. With Time Warner and U-Verse instituting hard caps and overage fees on home internet use and the intrusion of 3G/4G into homes, I have a feeling we're all going to be paying a lot more for data soon.

FYI, AT&T is cracking down on more than just tethering. People who are sim-swapping are getting nasty texts as well. Case in point is people who have an Atrix and an older phone, getting texts saying they will automatically be moved to a 4G data plan, or people who pop smartphone SIMs into iPads getting nasty texts saying they have 30 days to purchase an iPad plan or the account will be terminated.

I think what we are seeing is a full-scale crackdown on ToS at AT&T. Really, according to them, every device should have it's own SIM and contract; I actually asked a CSR about this and was told that sim-swapping (even if you own multiple phones) is a ToS violation; if your phone breaks, you're supposed to go buy a new one from them, not pop the SIM into another phone.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

What do you mean by "should" ?

With AT&T, you agree a TOS with 2GB of data w/o tethering.
It really doesn't matter what it "should" be, and if it "should" include tethering or not.
It does NOT, AT&T makes it clear from the beginning, so there should be no crying about it.

What I mean by "should" is that they "should". If you're paying a decent amount of money for 2 GB, then you should be able to use it. If you use more, you pay for additional data. Maybe if ATT actually had decently priced tethering plans at say 1-2 GB, then you might have a point. But they don't. If you like being boned by ATT, congrats.

Meanwhile, I'll pay my $20 a month to use my iPhone 4, and MacBook Pro, and eventually iPad 2, all off the same account, for the 1 GB I paid for.

BTW, I was offered 6 GB for $30 including tethering, but I didn't take it, since I didn't need the extra bandwidth.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

What do you mean by "should" ?

He means AT&T should not be greedy a-holes. Oh right, you don't think there is such a thing as a greedy corporation.

Back when telcos tried to charge for multiple home phones, and the cable company tried to charge for multiple televisions, you were probably cheering them the whole time. Hell, if internet companies tried to charge for multiple computers in a household, you'd wave their ToS around like it's the fncking national flag. Has there even been an d!ck move by a company that you didn't defend?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

indeed. how I use the data coming into my phone shouldn't matter to my carrier.

Internet companies are looking for more opportunities to squeeze a few pennies from users. Soon, they are gonna try tier pricing that includes access to YouTube, Netflix, and other vid sites. Don't pay, no access.

[The Godfather]

It was extremely dumb of AT&T to renew unlimited plans for subsidized iPhone 4 customers. Who held a gun to their head into grandfathering anyone?

[Athens]

Ops wrong page

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The usual anti-corporation ramblings

Ra Ra, the poor consumer is always right.

Ever considered that consumers can be as greedy as corporations?
Probably not, because in your world of consumer entitlements, everything ought to be free.

-t

[Athens]

Here is my problem with AT&T is that your paying for data, you should be able to use that data any way you like with in its limits. GO over the limit and you pay extra. So if I am paying 30 bucks a month for 2GB of data, I shouldn't have any restrictions on how I use that data. Go over that 2GB and sure im paying up the @$$ in fees for it.

[Cold Warrior]

Is there any indication that jailbreak tetherists with capped data plans even got the at&t notice? If not, seems that at&t is allowing people to use their tiered data as they like.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Ra Ra, the poor consumer is always right.

Ever considered that consumers can be as greedy as corporations?
Probably not, because in your world of consumer entitlements, everything ought to be free.

What are you talking about? People are paying for the data.

Basically you're arguing that people shouldn't have access to that data because most people would never use that much without tethering. Well, maybe so, then that's just bullsht marketing. If they don't want people to use multi-GBs worth of data each month, then perhaps they shouldn't sell such plans in the first place.

Now if those no-tethering plans were uber-uber-cheap, you might have a bit of a point, but they're not. They actually cost just as much or more as plans with other carriers that offer tethering included.

[ort888]

AT&T has also declared war on T-Mobile.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Ra Ra, the poor consumer is always right.

You know why you never win an argument? You spend the entire time shoving words into your opponent's mouth instead of answering your opponent's actual argument.

Ever considered that consumers can be as greedy as corporations?

Using the GBs you paid for isn't greed. Demanding consumers pay twice for the same GBs is greed. Can't you tell the difference?

Probably not, because in your world of consumer entitlements, everything ought to be free.

Once again, shoving words into my mouth. Maybe you could try responding to my original statements instead of avoiding them?

[Athens]

Quoted again....

"Using the GBs you paid for isn't greed. Demanding consumers pay twice for the same GBs is greed. Can't you tell the difference?"

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ort888 

AT&T has also declared war on T-Mobile.

Quick war
AT&T buys T-Mobile USA - Boing Boing

[Lateralus]

I so hope this deal gets blocked...

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

I so hope this deal gets blocked...

When was the last time that happened?

[The Godfather]

Boycott monopolizing enterprises. If you are up for renewal, don't sign up for renewal to get discounted price hardware. Visit your local Craiglist because many unemployed are willing to sell their iPhone 4 in order to make rent and pay bills (one of them may be an AT&T bill, ironically).
They must have tons more money than Apple, given that yesterday's purchase was a transfer bigger than Apple has saved up... Unless some crazy bank wanted to be tmobile's title lienholder, which is highly doubtful.

[Eriamjh]

The title of this thread is highly misleading. War? Please!

Getting a text notifying you that AT&T thinks you are tethering (especially if you are not) is just a tactic. My guess is it is purely based on usage patterns and total throughput, not analysis of packet data, sites used, or anything else.

Ultimately, AT&T will kick you off their network if you have an unlimited plan and use it more than they think you should (say, you are in the top 0.5% of all users by month, every month).

[The Godfather]

Even if you use Netflix over 3G to watch the entire Sopranos series over and over, AT&T is still making money hand over fist. It is widely known that the best data users among us, only use 1/10th of the alotted voice minutes, yet AT&T won't consider making a fair trade.
Secondly, most of AT&T advertising has been made by Apple iPhone commercials. Any marketing student could tell you that this is a huge part of the cost of running a company.
They won't kick anybody off their network.

[imitchellg5]

I'm sorry, but if you're specifically paying for 2 Gb of data WITHOUT tethering, you shouldn't be allowed to tether. That's the reality of the world.

[ort888]

Yes this is true. But the offerings from AT&T are also dumb.

The big telecoms need to rethink the way they charge us for data, because the systems in place now are stupid and old fashioned.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I'm sorry, but if you're specifically paying for 2 Gb of data WITHOUT tethering, you shouldn't be allowed to tether. That's the reality of the world.

But don't you understand: the company is greedy if it doesn't give you more than you signed up for and you're paying for.

You gotta take the Canucki's word for it.

-t

[imitchellg5]

Why would they give you more than you're paying for???

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Using the GBs you paid for isn't greed. Demanding consumers pay twice for the same GBs is greed.

Frustrating as it may be it's not greed, it's maximizing profit. If you were in charge of pricing schemes for a company you would also raise prices as high as people would pay, as long as it impressed management and got you promotions and bonuses. Everybody does; that's how it works.

The problem is people complain about price, but continue to buy the product (which they really don't need) anyway.

[ort888]

It's not so much the price, but how the pricing is applied.

If I pay for 2 gigs a month, let me access it however I want. Tethering or not. If they don't want me to actually use that 2 gigs a month, then why is the limit so high? Why does texting cost more than emailing?

The problem is that we have so few choices if we don't like the pricing, and all of the guys charge in the same way.

What about something like this...

You pay for $15 a month for access to 3G data. The first 750 megs is included. Each 750 megs after that is $5. Tether all you want. Text all you want. Simple.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by ort888 

It's not so much the price, but how the pricing is applied.

If I pay for 2 gigs a month, let me access it however I want. Tethering or not. If they don't want me to actually use that 2 gigs a month, then why is the limit so high? Why does texting cost more than emailing?

What about something like this...

You pay for $15 a month for access to 3G data. The first 750 megs is included. Each 750 megs after that is $5. Tether all you want. Text all you want. Simple.

They will probably move in that direction, but not $15 a month. They want to lock in as high a rate as they can get. And it's clear even the poorest of people are eager to pay $50-70/month to upgrade their old phones (that worked fine) to smart phones.

I've exercised my vote for their pricing... by not having a smart phone.

[torsoboy]

The AT&T rules kind of remind me of the rules that I have seen in some (non-all you can eat) restaurants where sharing your plate of food is not allowed. Ridiculous. But, there will always be someone that defends this type of crap rule.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

I've exercised my vote for their pricing... by not having a smart phone.

If you don't buy they'll probably just think they aren't subsidizing the smartphones enough.

Hell, Verizon went the extra mile and introduced a mandatory data plan for non-smartphones last year. It's ludicrous.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

The AT&T rules kind of remind me of the rules that I have seen in some (non-all you can eat) restaurants where sharing your plate of food is not allowed. Ridiculous. But, there will always be someone that defends this type of crap rule.

-t

[el chupacabra]

For what its worth Virgen mobile has a plan for $25 /month with unlimited data and 300 minutes, no contract. I pay 39 after all taxes and fees to verizon with no data plan, no contract, Im not sure how many minutes i get, but its more than 300, and unlimited at night.

[The Final Dakar]

I'm on a $35 data only plan from Verizon. Cheapest damn thing I could find. Doubt Virgin has coverage in Bumble****, PA.

[imitchellg5]

Virgin will have coverage if Sprint does.