[besson3c]

Speaking of open source, just to keep this thread alive, I would actually like to see the states settle in on using open source voting machines. I don't know if you are familiar with the controversy here in the states with the Diebold company that runs most of our electronic voting machines, Eric, but in short the Windows based software is woefully insecure, and there have been rumors of collusion with the Diebold CEO.

Whether or not these sorts of things are true we will never know, but I think the problem is that as long as we trust a private company with our voting machines, there is no way we could ever know, and that's a problem...

I would like to see many different eyes and talents developing a secure open source voting machine with code that anybody can audit. Conventional wisdom would be that if anybody can audit it, anybody can rig it, but then again selinux (security enhanced Linux) is open, yet our department of defense and other highly visible institutions that need hardcore security use it, so I think there are perfected procedures for developing highly secure, virtually tamper-free code that if nothing more would be a huge step up from the Diebold machines and the footage I've seen of people compromising them in literally seconds.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

I also probably wouldn't want to look up reviews of that RAZR2 phone OS if I were you

It probably sucks, like most phones (except for the iPhone), but I think it is safe to say that Linux/BSD has far surpassed Windows CE on these little mobile devices... There are tons of Linux based devices, including network appliances and other gadgetry, ATMs, casino machines, probably cars too. VMWare is also Linux driven. Whatever you think about the software that runs on top of Linux, it is clear that the kernel itself is quite fast and stable (as is the BSD kernel).

The question is, do you include these little dumb devices as part of the Linux marketshare/user base? If so, this is virtually impossible to measure...

[analogika]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

The basic user skill part kicks in whereby one types: www.google.com

Then one types: "how to burn .iso" or "How to boot Mac from CD"

Then one presses SEARCH.

Then one reads.

Then one actually learns something that's pretty damned easy.

These are indeed BASIC computer skills even 8 year olds and grandmothers often know to try first before they start calling people just trying to help them "arrogant IT types", or claiming they have a "Linux attitude" when it has nothing to do with Linux.

But then again, all of this requires some basic logic skills as well.

What's the arrogant attitude here is the repeated assumption that a person who uses his computer for content work should have to know this. It is also completely beyond what a "basic" user needs or WANTS to know.

And I very seriously doubt you have the slightest clue about 8-year-olds or grandmothers.

But what do I know - I'd hate to be forced to google "How to replace a spark plug" if my car did weird things. In fact, the last time I did that (a couple of years ago), I got laughed at by elitist types with a mechanic attitude, because I drive a diesel. Oh. Right.

But I don't have time nor interest to become an expert in yet another field.
So I don't bother. I call my mechanic.

[besson3c]

analogika: I totally understand the spirit of what you're saying, but I do think that computers are a little different than other possessions of ours, including cars. If we were to call our computer technicians every time we had some sort of problem, we'd be broke and they would be quite well off! My point is that we assume a certain amount of responsibility with owning a computer as far as learning stuff. Mind you, you do have to learn a few things about a car: driving it, knowing when it should get an oil change, receive other sorts of maintenance, etc. but I think the experience of owning a computer is more demanding of us and far more dynamic. I've yet to meet somebody that couldn't drive their car or know that they have to have an oil change every once in a while, but obviously there are plenty of computer illiterate people out there.

However, I don't mean to pick apart your valid point, just throwing this in the mix for fun

[- - e r i k - -]

Why should computers be any different from our other possessions? Most people aren't tinkerers and can't (or shouldn't be) forced to be either. They simply want things that work.

I am technically knowledgeable. I've just grown tired of having to fix things that shouldn't be broken. This is the part where "Linux is only free is your time is worth nothing" comes in. It may seem contentious, but it's not. Obviously if you are the type that ENJOYS to tinker, then that time is probably well spent - frustrations and all.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

analogika: I totally understand the spirit of what you're saying, but I do think that computers are a little different than other possessions of ours, including cars. If we were to call our computer technicians every time we had some sort of problem, we'd be broke and they would be quite well off!

The big difference here is that you don't see this status quo as a problem that needs to be fixed, while I do.

I *think* Apple agrees with me.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Why should computers be any different from our other possessions? Most people aren't tinkerers and can't (or shouldn't be) forced to be either. They simply want things that work.

I am technically knowledgeable. I've just grown tired of having to fix things that shouldn't be broken. This is the part where "Linux is only free is your time is worth nothing" comes in. It may seem contentious, but it's not. Obviously if you are the type that ENJOYS to tinker, then that time is probably well spent - frustrations and all.

I would still rephrase the quoted statement like I was telling Mastrap, but leaving that aside, I do agree with this...

This is one of the reasons I don't use Linux on the desktop as my primary workstation. I'm pretty much out of the business of monkeying around with workstations any more. That is, I have absolutely no desire to fiddle with them - be them mine or anybody else's. I'd much rather spend my time on coding, designing new stuff, and in maintaining my servers I'm responsible for. I'm responsible for four with my own business, over 30 servers at my day job that are in production and extremely heavy use 24/7, and number of spare/test/development servers and stuff that is racked but not in use.

This is also why I'm a fan of open source. I hear the pager going off within other groups where I work, I know what sorts of crap they have to deal with, including the Windows "patch Tuesday" thing they have going on. I know how much of a pain in the ass it is when a service crashes and I have to wake up at 3 AM to do something, and since our services are very stable I shouldn't even be complaining, I don't have it so bad. My point is, with my servers I want *them* to "just work", and I know that both OS X and Windows would be lousy replacements for these machines.

So, what goes with the territory is a healthy respect for the work behind Linux and all of the open source services that are my bread and butter. It's not just that I feel that open source has provided successful software, but in my area it has also provided *damn good* software with stability that I can really count on. So, when people rip apart open source or Linux this way I feel strongly compelled to correct them. Rip apart Desktop Linux all you want, I don't give a rat's ass, but a tremendous respect is due when it comes to Linux/Unix servers and all of the non-visible areas of our lives where Linux/Unix just sort of silently does its thing behind the scenes and drives so much of what we take for granted. And really, we *do* take them for granted. You'd be surprised how many people seem to think that their email just sort of magically appears, for instance

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by analogika 

The big difference here is that you don't see this status quo as a problem that needs to be fixed, while I do.

I *think* Apple agrees with me.

What makes you think that I don't?

As much as it would be nice if everybody could use a computer without any significant difficulty, I also think that that wish might also be a curse in disguise. Complex systems always provide means in which they can be rigged and where people can be taken advantage of in some form. With computers, no matter how easy we make a system for Grandma, there will always be the risk of social engineered fraud, identity theft, data compromise, etc. I think that if we require absolutely no computer education, it will simply be too easy for people to put themselves at risk without thinking twice about what's going on.

I think operating a computer should be somewhere in between where they are now, and driving a car. That is, people need to be conscious enough to be aware of what they are doing at any given time, like a very alert driver at times when they are potentially at risk, but we should all be free to take on this responsibility with a sense of fearlessness.

Does that make sense?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by analogika 

What's the arrogant attitude here is the repeated assumption that a person who uses his computer for content work should have to know this. It is also completely beyond what a "basic" user needs or WANTS to know.

Why do you insist on trying to frame this as some ambiguous situation involving some non-existent "basic" user?

What took place in the thread involved a REAL person, who was asking how to do something, then jumped on the person telling them how to do it with a snide comment while proving they couldn't use the computer they already own to do something simple, follow simple instructions they DID request -despite your fiction to the contrary- and that someone WAS giving them, or have a clue about looking something up for themselves, which is part of basic computer use. And then the peanut gallery somehow blames that on Linux, and thinks its valid.

And I very seriously doubt you have the slightest clue about 8-year-olds or grandmothers.

What I don't have the slightest clue about, is how some people get through their lives seemingly without having developed the common sense or logic of an eight year old, and possessing the people skills of a tree stump.

But what do I know - I'd hate to be forced to google "How to replace a spark plug" if my car did weird things.

Right, because anything that was being discussed, like booting a computer or burning a disk image is in any way comparable to replacing a spark plug.

And who was "forced" to do anything? Again with the imaginary nonsense, rather than deal with reality.

In fact, the last time I did that (a couple of years ago), I got laughed at

THAT I don't doubt in the least.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

What I don't have the slightest clue about, is how some people get through their lives seemingly without having developed the common sense or logic of an eight year old, and possessing the people skills of a tree stump.

Is that last bit a rare flash of self-reflection?

Well, not being able to empathize with other human beings is a form of social stupidity that's hard to overcome. What I'm not sure about is whether you just *play* a complete asshole on this forum.

People aren't stupid for not knowing these things. In fact, I've met (and worked for) quite a few people who simply have better things to spend their time on than to learn stupid tech crap that they can simply hire service providers to handle, instead.

They're *easily* smart enough to do so themselves. However, they're also smart enough to realize that they don't have to.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Is that last bit a rare flash of self-reflection?
People aren't stupid for not knowing these things.

What's stupid is ASKING how to do something because presumably you WANT to know how to do it (WHY THE F ELSE WOULD YOU BE ASKING?) being told how, and then being a prick about it.

What's also really stupid, is you pretending you can't figure out the difference. But then again, expecting any shred of reason or logic from you is a waste of valuable time.

In fact, I've met (and worked for) quite a few people who simply have better things to spend their time on than to learn stupid tech crap that they can simply hire service providers to handle, instead.

Yes, and did they ask how to do that 'stupid tech crap' then be pricks to someone telling them how before hiring a service provider?

And really, the whole "hire someone to do everything for you because you can't be bothered to learn anything" is an amazingly boneheaded stance anyway. Sure, that applies to a lot of situations for most people, but as a blanket reaction to everything? Even simple instructions you're REQUESTING of someone? Lame.

They're *easily* smart enough to do so themselves. However, they're also smart enough to realize that they don't have to.

You don't have to mount a disk image or boot your Mac from a CD. You can, if you wish hire someone to do it for you.

But if someone didn't want to do one of those horrible 'tech tasks' themselves, why the F would they ask someone how to?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

You don't have to mount a disk image or boot your Mac from a CD. You can, if you wish hire someone to do it for you.

But if someone didn't want to do one of those horrible 'tech tasks' themselves, why the F would they ask someone how to?

I believe the point was that they shouldn't have to in the first place.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by analogika 

I believe the point was that they shouldn't have to in the first place.

And they didn't.

That's another layer of irony of this whole non-issue that's of course completely lost on you.

The suggestion was made that if you don't know how to do something, go to a link and order -for free- the same thing already done for you. FREE no less, not even paying for the service, and you don't HAVE to do anything.

Going the route of having something done for you is actually what was being called a "Linux attitude"!

There's not a shred of consistent logic from your side of the aisle on this one, just blame things on people that use Linux for other people's attitude problems.

[analogika]

You can just rehash everything already said, if you like, but it's not like besson and I haven't already settled the matter.

I think he got my point.

I don't much care if you don't.

[besson3c]

analogika: do you think that I have a good attitude?

[mattyb]

While people are screaming in frustration, databases are failing, disks are corrupting, its always nice to know that a thread like this exists in the Lounge.

Keep up the good work.