Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Socialists win big in Spain

Socialists win big in Spain (Page 2)
Thread Tools
nonhuman
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Baltimore, MD
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 02:26 AM
 
Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Can it Conservauntie too?
Sure, but it makes her look like Tina Tuner.
     
theolein
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: zurich, switzerland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 03:15 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Being a coward is not preferable to being dead.

It's the same thing.

You exist, but leave no evidence that you do.

Cowards are never wrong and never right.

They're never anything at all.
I dunno, perhaps they are cowards, perhaps not. I don't really care. If they don't want to fight America's wars, I can't say I can blame them or call them cowards for it though.

But what would you do if anyone would be daft enough to actually be interested in your opinion, Alan? Would you go off to some country you'd barely heard of before to fight for a war because someone told you so? Wouldn't you ask why first?
weird wabbit
     
Powerbook
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: München, Deutschland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 05:53 AM
 
Surely in no time it will motivate bimbo47 and his kind to a new sort of surrender-"jokes", like "Spain said surrender teheheh", non?

PB.


PS. The AllahAbuQusai-Multidork will cream his pants - now he will know a bit more about the "soucerlist Yurrrop".
Add: OMG! They say 'Surrender': http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...290588,00.html
Aut Caesar aut nihil.
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 06:08 AM
 
I went down to Madrid this weekend I found the anger that I was met with strange. I think we are used to what I would term the immature response to these kind of attacks. The response that demands that you forgot about your political and ideological beliefs and stand behind your country and its rulers irrespective. In Spain we didn't see that. We saw a population that stood by its belief that Spain as a state should pursue peace through international cooperation not war as an American proxy. All that changed in the last few days was a reshuffling of priorities. Whereas before the economy was given priority over the war in Iraq, after the blasts, the war in Iraq was given greater priority. That is because it became clear that not only was prosperity meaningless when you were under attack, but the economic gains stood to be undone by the involvement in the war in Iraq.

Once the issue of the war in Iraq became relevant to the vote, it's no surprise at all that Aznar's party was ousted. We know that 90% of the population was against Spanish involvement in Iraq. We know that people see Aznar as being a megalomaniac that placed his personal desire to have a better relationship with Bush ahead of his people's desire for peace. On top of it all, the Aznar government tried to pull the wool over voters' eyes. People felt that Aznar had pushed them to believe that ETA was responsible. Many Spaniards (not the least Basques) saw this as a betrayal by Aznar of his own people; as favouring his relationship with the US over the relationship with his electorate.

The only thing that surprises me about this election is the manner in which the War in Iraq became an issue again. That was really sad. Anyway, I think this image from the BBC says it all.
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 06:14 AM
 
"Aber die spanischen Truppen im Irak werden nach Hause kommen."

Bush and Blair are not going to be happy either. With elections coming up for them, they will not like to see their "Coalition" coming apart at the seams!
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 06:18 AM
 
Originally posted by slow moe:
http://www.google.com/search?q=al-Qa...utf-8&oe=utf-8

Whatever
lol
stupid.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 06:25 AM
 
MADRID, Spain _�_Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero (search), whose Socialist party won Spain's general elections, said Monday that he will recall Spain's 1,300 peacekeeping troops in Iraq by June 30.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114179,00.html
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 06:33 AM
 
Originally posted by Troll:
I went down to Madrid this weekend I found the anger that I was met with strange. I think we are used to what I would term the immature response to these kind of attacks. The response that demands that you forgot about your political and ideological beliefs and stand behind your country and its rulers irrespective. In Spain we didn't see that. We saw a population that stood by its belief that Spain as a state should pursue peace through international cooperation not war as an American proxy. All that changed in the last few days was a reshuffling of priorities. Whereas before the economy was given priority over the war in Iraq, after the blasts, the war in Iraq was given greater priority. That is because it became clear that not only was prosperity meaningless when you were under attack, but the economic gains stood to be undone by the involvement in the war in Iraq.

Once the issue of the war in Iraq became relevant to the vote, it's no surprise at all that Aznar's party was ousted. We know that 90% of the population was against Spanish involvement in Iraq. We know that people see Aznar as being a megalomaniac that placed his personal desire to have a better relationship with Bush ahead of his people's desire for peace. On top of it all, the Aznar government tried to pull the wool over voters' eyes. People felt that Aznar had pushed them to believe that ETA was responsible. Many Spaniards (not the least Basques) saw this as a betrayal by Aznar of his own people; as favouring his relationship with the US over the relationship with his electorate.

The only thing that surprises me about this election is the manner in which the War in Iraq became an issue again. That was really sad. Anyway, I think this image from the BBC says it all.
I'm sorry, Troll, but you used more than three words, none of which was "anti-Semitic".

Nobody will read that.

-s*

PS: thank you.
     
skio
Forum Regular
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Preparing to fight against an American invasion.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 07:07 AM
 
The Spanish people have sense, and the nerve to take on world peace by a emthod vastly different to that of the ever-evangelising US.
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 07:17 AM
 
I just heard Jack Straw's comments and I think he confuses issues the same way some people here are.

Spain is pulling out of the War in Iraq; it is not pulling out of the "War on Terrorism."

(was that short enough for people to read, Spheric?)
     
SimeyTheLimey
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alexandria, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:03 AM
 
Whether or not the vote is logical and in tune with prevailing sentiment, al Queda will definitely take this result as a victory, and it will definitely encourage more attacks in Europe. Al Queda doesn't just attack randomly, they attack with a goal in mind. Spain just rewarded them by giving them exactly what they wanted.

Think about the contrast with the US' reaction after 9/11 and try to think of it from Al Queda's perspective where each attack has a desired political result. Al Queda attacked the US as part of an ongoing campaign to drive the US out of the Middle East (the attacks began over a decade before, and had been escalating). But when the US itself was attacked, the US counterattacked. From Al Queda's point of view, 9/11 backfired -- badly.

Spain's reaction, unfortunately, is to revert to appeasement. This will certainly tell al Queda that it pays to attack Europeans. This attack on Europe's soil, unlike the attack on America's, worked beautifully from al Queda's point of view. What worked once might work again, and so will be tried again.

The sad thing is that appeasement probably could not make Spain safe from al Queda terrorism. They don't just hate Spain because it helped topple Saddam, they hate modern Spain above all because Spain was once a part of the Islamic Caliphate. Retaking Spain for Islam was one of Bin Laden's themes. It will always be a target. No change in policy will be able to change Spain's history, which is deeply humiliating from the point of view of an Islamic extremist.
     
Avenir
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:17 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Whether or not the vote is logical and in tune with prevailing sentiment, al Queda will definitely take this result as a victory, and it will definitely encourage more attacks in Europe. Al Queda doesn't just attack randomly, they attack with a goal in mind. Spain just rewarded them by giving them exactly what they wanted...
Slimey, This was more my thinking as well.

If the Populars were going to win by 5% last week, what made them change their mind? Certainly not their displeasure with the current president, but their fear of more attacks. Granted, only a small percentage (5-6%) had to change their minds, but even think about that, that small a percentage, being swayed by fear of retaliation-based attacks, changing the outcome of an entire election? I was in Spain a year ago, and I saw how much many people hated the war in Iraq, but if the country really was "90% against the war" (and thus so against the ruling party) then why didn't the polls a week ago show that?

spike[at]avenirex[dot]com | Avenirex
IM - Avenirx | ICQ - 3932806
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:28 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Whether or not the vote is logical and in tune with prevailing sentiment, al Queda will definitely take this result as a victory, and it will definitely encourage more attacks in Europe. Al Queda doesn't just attack randomly, they attack with a goal in mind. Spain just rewarded them by giving them exactly what they wanted.
Irrelevant. AQ is an illogical insane organazation detached from reality. They are such zealots that only achieving what they did was their victory.

AQ will be dealt with regardless of who governs Spain.

The reason for the PSOE victory yesterday was because people felt Aznar and the PP were oppertunistic liars for sitting on information concerning the Madrid terrorist attacks. That was their downfall nothing else. Had Aznar come clean to begin with and admitted that there were probable connections to AQ as well as the circumstancial evidence to ETA the PP would have won yesterday's election.

You sound like you have to take off the tin foil hat
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Spliffdaddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon line
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:29 AM
 
Thanks for typing what I was thinking, Simey.




yup, they're gonna let al quaeda win.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:30 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Thanks for typing what I was thinking, Simey.




yup, they're gonna let al quaeda win.
We just won a country back from insanity. Thank God the PSOE won yesterday.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
lil'babykitten
Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Herzliya
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:38 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
We just won a country back from insanity. Thank God the PSOE won yesterday.
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:49 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Whether or not the vote is logical and in tune with prevailing sentiment, al Queda will definitely take this result as a victory, and it will definitely encourage more attacks in Europe. Al Queda doesn't just attack randomly, they attack with a goal in mind. Spain just rewarded them by giving them exactly what they wanted.
To the extent that you think these attacks by Al Qaeda were designed to get Spain to withdraw from Iraq, then AQ did get what they want. But the Spanish people also want their troops out of Iraq and not just because they don't like being at war. They never wanted them there in the first place! The fact that Spanish will coincides with Al Qaeda's desire is just that - coincidence.

You expect them to compromise their belief that war is not the answer merely so as to deny Al Qaeda the chance to claim victory. If they had done that, they would in any event have been letting Al Qaeda affect their democracy. So they were damned either way. The fact that you prefer the course of action that requires them to compromise their beliefs is not surprising since the principal benefactor of Spanish involvement in Iraq was George W Bush.
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Spain's reaction, unfortunately, is to revert to appeasement. This will certainly tell al Queda that it pays to attack Europeans. This attack on Europe's soil, unlike the attack on America's, worked beautifully from al Queda's point of view. What worked once might work again, and so will be tried again.
9/11 backfired badly? Oh, that makes me laugh. Those are seriously rose tinted glasses you're wearing Simey! 9/11 (and the aftermath of 9/11) has succeeded in ways I doubt Bin Laden ever imagined. It has split the world further, it has increased hatred for the United States and split alliances and it has strengthened Al Qaeda. There is no evidence whatsoever that the US's response to 9/11 is any better than Spain's response to 3/11!
     
Spliffdaddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon line
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:50 AM
 
HAHAHAHA

um. OK.
     
fizzlemynizzle
Senior User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:51 AM
 
It's not the fault of the socialists that this happened, first of all. They didn't bomb anyone. But what happened is that the voters have made it clear that violence and fear dictate who gets voted for. Al Qaeda singlehandedly swung an election. Where does it end? If a right wing group bombs some train stations 4 days before the next set of elections because they're displeased with what happened yesterday, shall the voters swing back the other way?

Ask the Saudi Arabians if Al Qaeda has any sense of loyalty. They catered to them for years after the first gulf war and still got viciously bombed a few months ago. Appeasement never works, the aggressor always wants more.

Here's a perfect example of this fallacy:

A 26-year-old window frame maker, who identified himself only as David, said he had changed his vote from Popular Party to Socialist because of the bombings and the war in Iraq. "Maybe the Socialists will get our troops out of Iraq, and Al Qaeda will forget about Spain, so we will be less frightened," he said. "A bit of us died in the train."

You've just declared that you will do what a bully wants as long as he promises not to hurt you. This is the same kind of attitude that was displayed by the international community toward Hitler at Munich. You'd think people would learn something from history.
( Last edited by fizzlemynizzle; Mar 15, 2004 at 08:58 AM. )
     
SimeyTheLimey
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alexandria, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:53 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
The reason for the PSOE victory yesterday was because people felt Aznar and the PP were oppertunistic liars for sitting on information concerning the Madrid terrorist attacks. That was their downfall nothing else. Had Aznar come clean to begin with and admitted that there were probable connections to AQ as well as the circumstancial evidence to ETA the PP would have won yesterday's election.

You sound like you have to take off the tin foil hat
I wasn't talking about why the vote went the way it did. I was talking about how it will be perceived by al-Queda. They will take this as a victory. Which in some ways it is. And that will certainly encourage them to do it again. Not, of course, that they need much encouragement.

I agree that Aznar tried too hard to pin the bombing on ETA. But I don't think that is all that surprising. Go reread the 03/11 - Spain's 9/11 thread. The early posts are full of Americans saying it was al Queda, and sophisticated Europeans telling them that no, it was "obviously" ETA. Denial is a river that runs deep and wide in Europe these days.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:56 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I wasn't talking about why the vote went the way it did. I was talking about how it will be perceived by al-Queda. They will take this as a victory. Which in some ways it is. And that will certainly encourage them to do it again.
Doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevant how AQ perceives the results of the Spanish election.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:56 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Think about the contrast with the US' reaction after 9/11 and try to think of it from Al Queda's perspective where each attack has a desired political result. Al Queda attacked the US as part of an ongoing campaign to drive the US out of the Middle East (the attacks began over a decade before, and had been escalating). But when the US itself was attacked, the US counterattacked. From Al Queda's point of view, 9/11 backfired -- badly.
Not at all.

Osama bin Laden already won the second your administration used 9/11 as an excuse to liberate you from your rights.

After all, destroying all that America stood for was point #1 on his agenda. Thankfully, he had your government to take care of it for him.

Not that you weren't all being told that at the time already.

-s*
     
Spliffdaddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon line
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 08:59 AM
 
It's ALL OVER the news here in the US.

The consensus seems to be that Spain sold out to terrorism.

We needed a new bottom-feeder since France was getting dull.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:00 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
It's ALL OVER the news here in the US.

The consensus seems to be that Spain sold out to terrorism.

We needed a new bottom-feeder since France was getting dull.
Well as long as you have someone to blame for your own ineptness
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Spliffdaddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon line
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:01 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
Well as long as you have someone to blame for your own ineptness

Hell, everyone blames *us* when they screw up.

*yeah, you*
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:03 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
It's ALL OVER the news here in the US.

The consensus seems to be that Spain sold out to terrorism.

We needed a new bottom-feeder since France was getting dull.
And that's really all it's about, innit?

Well, I'm glad the Spanish managed to make you all feel good about yourselves, once again.

That's the whole point of your three-word "politics". Don't concern yourself with issues or reality. We love America. Stand proud. uNF. uNF.

-s*
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:05 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Hell, everyone blames *us* when they screw up.

*yeah, you*
So there are a lot of idiots in the world. I don't think you are doing anyone a favor by joining up with them.

Regardless the only one who screwed up was the Aznar administration. Because of it they lost an election. That is politics.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:07 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
It's ALL OVER the news here in the US.

The consensus seems to be that Spain sold out to terrorism.

We needed a new bottom-feeder since France was getting dull.
Newsflash 1: The Spanish people NEVER supported the war in Iraq.
Newsflash 2: Iraq has NOTHING to do with the struggle against terrorism. Pulling out of Iraq does not indicate that Spain has "sold out on terrorism". It shows that they have sold out the United States. They are more dedicated to pursuing terrorism now than they have perhaps ever been.
     
villalobos
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2000
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:13 AM
 
Originally posted by Troll:
Newsflash 1: The Spanish people NEVER supported the war in Iraq.
Agreed. Does that allow them to withdraw troops from a country in chaos. Shouldn't they stay no matter what because, unlike the war in the first plase this time this is the right thing to do. This time Iraq really needs some peacekeeping and stabilization forces. I know it is never pleasant to clean after somebody else mess, but they should think about the biger picture. Leaving Iraq now as it is would help is become an even stronger breeding groun for terrorism.


Newsflash 2: Iraq has NOTHING to do with the struggle against terrorism. Pulling out of Iraq does not indicate that Spain has "sold out on terrorism". It shows that they have sold out the United States. They are more dedicated to pursuing terrorism now than they have perhaps ever been.
Agreed too. They chose to replace the PM who betrayed them. A smart behavior that the US should be wise to follow this year.

villa
     
SimeyTheLimey
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alexandria, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:17 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
Doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevant how AQ perceives the results of the Spanish election.
It not at all irrelevant to how they develop their strategy.

Oh, I'm sorry. This was just an isolated crime. How silly of me to apply war terminology.
     
SimeyTheLimey
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alexandria, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:20 AM
 
Originally posted by Troll:
Newsflash 2: Iraq has NOTHING to do with the struggle against terrorism.
If Iraq has nothing to do with the war against terrorism, then why would al-Queda attack Spain for participating in the war in Iraq? Riddle me that?
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:25 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
It not at all irrelevant to how they develop their strategy.
It is irrelevant because no matter how the election had went AQ would have perceived this as a victory.

No way AQ could have predicted that the Aznar administration reacted like they did which led to the loss of PP in the election.

AQ cannot affect local politics by bombing civilians just before an election -- unless they know how the politicians will react beforehand.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:26 AM
 
Originally posted by villalobos:
Agreed. Does that allow them to withdraw troops from a country in chaos. Shouldn't they stay no matter what because, unlike the war in the first plase this time this is the right thing to do. This time Iraq really needs some peacekeeping and stabilization forces. I know it is never pleasant to clean after somebody else mess, but they should think about the biger picture. Leaving Iraq now as it is would help is become an even stronger breeding groun for terrorism.
Note that they are leaving UNLESS the "Coalition" forces are replaced by UN peacekeepers by June 30.

So the message really is "UN or you're on your own".

-s*
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:28 AM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Note that they are leaving UNLESS the "Coalition" forces are replaced by UN peacekeepers by June 30.

So the message really is "UN or you're on your own".

-s*
Exactly. (I wonder if the hillbillies realize that?)
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:29 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
If Iraq has nothing to do with the war against terrorism, then why would al-Queda attack Spain for participating in the war in Iraq? Riddle me that?
You're right.

What he meant to say, I believe, was that The INVASION of Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with a War on Terrorism, since terrorism didn't actually gain a foothold there until the United States made it an attractive breeding ground.

-s*
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:30 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
If Iraq has nothing to do with the war against terrorism, then why would al-Queda attack Spain for participating in the war in Iraq? Riddle me that?
Oh, that's clever manipulation. Rummie will be onto that in a second!

The WAR in Iraq has and had nothing to do with terrorism Simey. Spanish troops in Iraq are not fighting Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is not defending itself by attacking Spain. It is attacking Spain because Spain is interfering in affairs that Al Qaeda thinks Arabs should be dealing with on their own. Al Qaeda wasn't involved in the first Gulf War either and yet 9/11 was a response to US involvement in the first Gulf War.

It is entirely competent for Spain to carry on fighting Al Qaeda without fighting in Iraq.
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:30 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
It is irrelevant because no matter how the election had went AQ would have perceived this as a victory.

No way AQ could have predicted that the Aznar administration reacted like they did which led to the loss of PP in the election.

AQ cannot affect local politics by bombing civilians just before an election -- unless they know how the politicians will react beforehand.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:31 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
Exactly. (I wonder if the hillbillies realize that?)
Of course not.

It's more than three words, silly!

-s*
     
Spliffdaddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon line
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:31 AM
 
blaming the US for terrorism are ya?

what was I saying about always blaming the US?

I noticed how quick the fingers pointed at the USA after the Madrid bombings.

"It's their fault."

Hey, I blame Iceland for being complacent and allowing the attacks to occur.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:32 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
blaming the US for terrorism are ya?

what was I saying about always blaming the US?

I noticed how quick the fingers pointed at the USA after the Madrid bombings.

"It's their fault."

Hey, I blame Iceland for being complacent and allowing the attacks to occur.
al Qaeda's words, not ours.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:33 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
If Iraq has nothing to do with the war against terrorism, then why would al-Queda attack Spain for participating in the war in Iraq? Riddle me that?
Riddle me this: how do you know that AQ was behind the Madrid terrorist attacks..

I'd say every country that is:

A) Christian
B) A western country
C) Close to the US
D) A supporter of Israel over Palestine
E) Isn't populated by Arab majority
F) Has a history of war with Arabs
G) ... the list could go on

is a potential target for AQ.

Spain is also a target for ETA.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
SimeyTheLimey
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alexandria, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:35 AM
 
Originally posted by Troll:
It is entirely competent for Spain to carry on fighting Al Qaeda without fighting in Iraq.
Hopefully, the new government will make that clear. But I don't know how they can do that in a way that will outweigh their decision to retreat from Iraq. As they say, actions speak louder than words.
     
Spliffdaddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon line
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:35 AM
 
A) Christian
B) A western country
C) Close to the US
D) A supporter of Israel over Palestine
E) Isn't populated by Arab majority
F) Has a history of war with Arabs
G) ... the list could go on





or more simply put..


"every non-Islamic government"
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:37 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
A) Christian
B) A western country
C) Close to the US
D) A supporter of Israel over Palestine
E) Isn't populated by Arab majority
F) Has a history of war with Arabs
G) ... the list could go on





or more simply put..


"every non-Islamic government"
well yes.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Spliffdaddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon line
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:38 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
well yes.



omg, we agreed on something?


*hugs voodoo*
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:39 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
or more simply put..


"every non-Islamic government"
three-word politics.

I guess it works sometimes.

     
Spliffdaddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon line
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:41 AM
 
Do you think non-Islamic governments would be well-advised to form some sort of coalition (for lack of a better word) against al quaeda, specifically, if not terrorists, in general?

Don't we outnumber them?

Seems like it would be a simple problem to solve if we all just agreed to solve it.
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:44 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Do you think non-Islamic governments would be well-advised to form some sort of coalition (for lack of a better word) against al quaeda, specifically, if not terrorists, in general?
You mean in addition to the one that exists now? Most of the planet is united in the fight against terrorism. It's the war in Iraq that we disagreed on!
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:44 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Do you think non-Islamic governments would be well-advised to form some sort of coalition (for lack of a better word) against al quaeda, specifically, if not terrorists, in general?

Don't we outnumber them?

Seems like it would be a simple problem to solve if we all just agreed to solve it.
It has already begun..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3510968.stm

and to answer your question more directly: yes.

From the start of this millennium it has become increasingly clear that a coordinated effort is needed. It has to be more effective than the campaign against tobacco and drugs though
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 15, 2004, 09:47 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Do you think non-Islamic governments would be well-advised to form some sort of coalition (for lack of a better word) against al quaeda, specifically, if not terrorists, in general?

Don't we outnumber them?

Seems like it would be a simple problem to solve if we all just agreed to solve it.
You cannot beat guerillas, except by changing conditions, thus removing their reasons for fighting and eroding their popular support.

And again, it is incredibly stupid of you to assume that organized terrorism didn't exist prior to 9/11. The rest of the world HAS been working together for DECADES, in a "Coalition", if you will.

The fact that they weren't stupid enought to incite even more hatred by liberally bombing unrelated countries merely means that they didn't make the headlines over in Three-Word Country.

-s*
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:22 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,