[iRebound]

Please See: http://www.irebound.com/ebay/1256806390/

I sold my Pismo on eBay. Here is the Link When the guy received it, he said that the trackpad and the screen corner was cracked. And that there's also a dark shadow on the corner of the screen. I sent out a perfectly working Pismo out. So I don't know what's going on.

I think he is looking for someone who lives in the same state as him. And for eBay seller with low ratings. So I think he broke his Pismo and try to claim it as mine.

He reported eBay and PayPal. PayPal is trying to get the money back from me. But I don't have it anymore. I just sent in the money for my new TiBook.

So Please see the Web Site I made about the Fraud for more info.

Thanks for helping.

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: iRebound ]

[iRebound]

He also left me a negative feedback on eBay. Now my eBay account is ruined! What should I do? Thanks.

[Thunderbird]

Tough case. It's basically your word against his. The pictures on the auction don't show clear close ups of the unit, so you have no proof that the unit wasn't cracked before shipping, but he also has no proof that it was. I can certainly see how it looks like the pictures were slightly doctored.

It's very suspicious that he doesn't want to file an insurance claim. If you insured the package, there is no reason for him not to accept that.

If you think he somehow switched units, you can easily check the serial numbers to make sure they match.

[Thunderbird]

Also, if you think that he is trying to commit fraud, then you should leave negative feedback for him.

The important thing is to make sure the serial number at the bottom cover of the Pismo matches that printed on the CPU module and that displayed by Apple System Profiler (which I think reads it from the ROM on the CPU card).

[gravy]

What is up with that Quicktime movie.
It look more like it's possessed like in
the exorsist or something. Not really sure
what it proves since he obviously had to
push it around to get those shots and perhaps
break the styrofoam. If it was indeed mishandled
then the carrier should pay for it not you.
just my $.02.

[iRebound]

This guy has ruined my eBay and PayPal account! I can't even make a payment on PayPal. I don't know if paypal charge my bank yet, could they even do that without asking first? I hope this would end soon.

[danbrew]

There's no doubt about it - the buyer got screwed. Assuming, of course, he didn't pull the old switchero and swap units out on you - although this would be extremely easy to determine if this were the case via serial numbers and all that.

I'd be pissed if I bought a laptop that arrived in the condition that is displayed on his website - there are clearly cracks in the case. I also have to question the sellers� use of the verbiage "It is in a good working condition." in the original ad - that sounds like something you'd hear when you were getting ready to buy a used car that had bondo and three paint jobs showing. As in, "sure, it don't look like much, but it's in good working condition."

Finally, and I suppose this is meant as a flame, you've got no high moral ground to be discussing fraud since you're stealing thousands of dollars worth of software. It's completely illegal and unethical for you to load the hard drive full of software before you send it on its way. I'm quite sure that Abode, Microsoft, and all the others would take a dim view of your cavalier attitude towards "free software."

As in any transaction, it's buyer beware, so I can't really have much sympathy for the buyer, but it should be pointed out that the buyer has over 25 positive buying recommendations on e-bay. I would imagine he does not want to go through the insurance claim process because it will take months for him to see his funds - an unreasonable delay if he's done nothing wrong. From your note, it sounds as if you're both in Illinois - me too, so I know it's a big state, but I don't understand why you think he'd pick someone in the same state upon which to commit an act of fraud? If I was going to screw somebody, I'd pick someone on the other side of the country to make it that much harder for them to pay me a visit. For all you know (or he knows), one of you also visits the alt.charles.manson or alt.assassination or alt.homemade.bomb sites. Generally speaking, it's bad ju-ju to screw people. And one of you is being screwed. It's not likely that the damage described was caused by factory packaging.

I'd love to hear about your paypal experience - in my opinion, paypal is a joke and the agreement the offer does nothing to resolve disputes. This is why the buyer should have used a credit card - he could just call visa and say, "I ain't paying." -- can't do that with paypal.

fwiw.


[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: danbrew ]

[iRebound]

This guy is talking about taking me to a small claims court.

But after I posted the pics on the web site I made, I didn't hear from him again.

[zigzag]

For lack of any better info, I'm assuming that the PB was in good condition (there's no evidence from your pictures that it isn't), and that you packed it in a reasonably safe manner.

It seems unlikely that he would try to pull a switch when it could be found out via serial numbers, etc. and would subject him to criminal prosecution, etc. The fact that you are in the same state would only make it easier for you to come after him. So, if he's trying to defraud you, I'd say it's more likely that he damaged the PB himself accidentally, or perhaps deliberately in order to get his $$ back (maybe he found a better deal or needed the $$). Even then, it seems unlikely - he seems to be regarded as an honest buyer on ebay.

If the damage occured in shipping, the question is: which one of you assumed the risk of damage during shipping? If it was you, then I think you're obligated to refund his money and bring an insurance claim yourself for the damage. If he assumed the risk, then it's his problem.

As for your ratings, I don't know how ebay or PayPal handle such things. Sounds like the best you can do is give him a bad rating and write letters to all those concerned. Those are the risks of selling through ebay.

[iRebound]

Originally posted by zigzag:
<STRONG>If the damage occured in shipping, the question is: which one of you assumed the risk of damage during shipping? If it was you, then I think you're obligated to refund his money and bring an insurance claim yourself for the damage. If he assumed the risk, then it's his problem.</STRONG>

I can't refund his money back because I used it for the new Ti that I should be getting soon. I need it for my graphic design class in downtown. I try to offer him to file the insurance claim, he doesn't want to. He asked for the reciept and I cooperate and gave it to him. And he still don't want it.

[mrchin]

Well, he lives in your state, just go over there and demand to see it with the Police present. You are the original owner? Check with who you bought it from your serial # or part #(M......) if you don't have it anymore since you sold it. And make him run a System Profile. If its truly not your machine, he's caught, if it is, then hey the shipping company needs to pay.

[Kestral]

Wow, a good story to read - note to self: when I sell my Pismo, don't do it via eBay.

As a frequent buyer on eBay, I know that I am taking a risk in buying - but from what I understand, a seller gives the buyer the option to buy insurance. If the buyer does not buy insurance and the item arrives damaged it's buyer beware. If the buy chooses the option to buy insurance, that would imply that the buyer is willing to be bound by the terms of the insurance agreement, in which case, the buyer in this case agreed in principle that if anything happens to the item during shipping, then the buyer will pursue the matter with insurance.

So in that case, I don't see why the buyer is whining now about not going through insurance after the fact. That being said, if the machine was damaged before it was even shipped, then it would be the sellers' fault. And there lies the problem - if the seller here can somehow prove conclusively that the item was shipped undamaged, then the buyer has no recourse against the seller.

[zigzag]

The problem is that, as I understand it, it's the seller/shipper who actually buys the insurance when he ships the goods. Even if he bought the insurance at the request of the buyer, the insurance is probably in the seller's name. However, I don't know if the USPS requires the seller to make the claim, or will allow the buyer to do so.

Here's what I would argue (assuming you're being honest about the condition of the PB): while you may have bought the insurance, you did so at the request and for the benefit of the buyer. Once you put the PB in the hands of the USPS in good condition and reasonably packed, it became the buyer's problem.

General advice: when you sell something, specify in the auction that although the item is in good condition and in the original packaging, the buyer assumes all risk of loss or damage during shipping.

[Kestral]

Repeat after me: when you burn your lap because the cup is hot at McDonald's, it's your fault.

I don't know what the legalities are and how it works, the seller here will have to check with USPS, but the fact is, when the seller buys insurance, it's the buyer that pays for it and specifically requests it though in many cases, the seller says in advance that (s)he will only ship with insurance for protection as part of the auction agreement. In any case, this issue is really quite simple. The $2000 question is, was the Pismo damaged before it was sent? If it was, then the seller committed fraud. If it wasn't, the the buyer should take it up with insurance. I hate it when people walk into a contact knowing what it implies and tries to change the rules later (like those idiots who sue Phillip Morris because they didn't know that cigarettes could cause cancer, what a load of BS).

[danbrew]

Most people don't buy things online all that much and generally don't think about who owns responsibility when/if things go wrong -- there is no implied contract when it comes to insurance, shipping, inspection period, etc. It's all up to what is agreed upon beforehand.

Unless previously agreed upon, the buyer cannot expect any money back the second it leaves his hands. It's only fair to the seller that he/she can use those funds as he/she sees fit -- for example, would it be fair for me to sell a car and then hold the funds for a week (10 days, whatever) just in case the buyer changed his mind? Not likely.

I've always maintained that you should never use anything other than credit cards when dealing with an unknown individual, but the net is you have to be prepared to lose your investment when dealing with strangers. What gets me is that the buyer didn't just go visit the seller and see what was for sale -- especially given that they're in the same state. I've jumped on airplanes and gone to visit the seller for some high dollar items that I've purchased over the net.

What just kills me is that $1425 for a Pismo isn't exactly a screaming deal. Wow.

Go figure.

[Neil Fiertel]

I do believe that the sender is responsible for taking up any damage with the shipper. Thus, the receipt for the shipping with its various bills of lading, insurance and so forth must be taken up with the shipping company, They might very well want to see the shipping materials as well. It seems a simple case of shipped happy and arrived Sad Mac. Everyone is unhappy with the situation but it seems everyone is demanding that the other guy deal with it. I suspect that both of you are honest with respect to the hardware ( I demur on discussing the issue of software copyright ownership, however) but at the same time all the shouting by email is not solving the problem. Get thee to UPS or whomever did the shipping and get them to look into it. If it is NOT insured and the option to insure was up to the sender rather than refused by the buyer, then the sender is responsible but if the option to insure was not demanded in the sale by the buyer or more to the point REFUSED by the buyer then the seller is off the hook.

[Wattsy]

I can't refund his money back because I used it for the new Ti that I should be getting soon. I need it for my graphic design class in downtown. I try to offer him to file the insurance claim, he doesn't want to. He asked for the reciept and I cooperate and gave it to him. And he still don't want it.

The fact that you have spent the money is irrelevant as far as your possible legal obligations to the buyer go. You should be aware that the Small Claims Court may give the benefit of the doubt to the buyer and that in such circumstances you will be obliged (under threat of further sanction) to cough up the refund.

Having said this there is something distinctly odd and contrived about this whole business. What on earth does the buyer think that the Quicktime movie proves? I have no experience of a boxed Pismo but the Apple packaging that held my old iBook and my current TiPB was very secure indeed. If the Pismo in question is capable of jumping about like in the Quicktime movie, then either the buyer or the seller must have gouged out fairly large chunks of the foam.

[gar_geneva]

Originally posted by Kestral:

I hate it when people walk into a contact knowing what it implies and tries to change the rules later (like those idiots who sue Phillip Morris because they didn't know that cigarettes could cause cancer, what a load of BS).[/QB]

Originally posted by Kestral:

I hate it when people walk into a contact knowing what it implies and tries to change the rules later (like those idiots who sue Phillip Morris because they didn't know that cigarettes could cause cancer, what a load of BS).[/QB]

Kestral: I would not attempt to make an analogy between this tragic pismo sale and the Phillip Morris disingenuous sale of a faulty and deadly product to its customers. The evidence about PM and their corruption of science, politics and lies to the public, is now very apparent (see http://www.ash.org.uk/papers/chronologies.html). Their internal documents (available for viewing on their own website as a result of these lawsuits) prove without any question that they created a smokescreen, lied to the public and continue to do so. They target kiddies (see todays NYtimes for example: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/24/business/24SMOK.html) as young as 11 years and hook them to a lifetime of addiction. Targeting teenagers with a drug that is as addictive as heroin means that smoking is NOT a choice. For some of these people, a lawsuit is warranted given how Phillip Morris refuted all scientific claims of health effects of tobacco despite the company knowing full well exactly what tobacco does to their customers. It is called FALSE advertising, fraud, and this is why many of the tobacco companies are in court. Many of their customers were led to believe they were perfectly safe -- only last year did Phillip Morris admit their products are not safe. They are also in court because of racketeering, which you may know is the same thing the mob is/was involved in.

The evidence about Phillip Morris is clear -- they kill their customers. The evidence regarding the pismo sale is not as clear. With the pismo Someone is lying and we don`t know who.... whereas with Phillip Morris is it quite clear.

By the way, your name "Kestral" is a small bird of prey that feeds on other birds. But I`m sure you knew that.

With all due respect, I wouldn`t recommend using Phillip Morris in any argument to support your case. Using them only weakens your stance `cause nobody in their right mind is supportive of them.

Gar
Switzerland, home country of the International Headquarters of Phillip Morris

[zigzag]

Two points, one relevant, one not:

1) How soon after he recieved the PB did the buyer complain? He has a duty to inspect the PB and notify the seller of any defects within a reasonable time. Anything longer than half a day in this case would make me (and probably a judge) very suspicious. Most people buying a used PB would notice the damage and notify the seller IMMEDIATELY.

2) Philip Morris' malfeasance is not necessarily a proximate cause of a cigarette smoker's damages. People smoke for a variety of reasons, not necessarily because it was once marketed as "healthful" or because Philip Morris denied the risks until yesterday ("It's OK for me to light up, honey - I'm waiting for Philip Morris to admit whether there are any risks or not"). Anyone who doesn't live under a rock knows that smoking is risky. Philip Morris' malfeasance should be considered, but so should the conduct of an adult Plaintiff.

And please don't get me started about the tobacco "settlement". I regard it as shameful. My state hasn't even decided what to do with its share - it will most likely line the pockets of "consultants", and change nothing.

This belongs in the Lounge, but the unmitigated sanctimony from Switzerland was irking me.

[ 08-25-2001: Message edited by: zigzag ]

[Cowdog]

I think the only question here is did it have insurance on it or not?

If you didn't break it and he didn't break it it must have been broken in shipment. Get the post office to pay you the insured amount, end of story. If he doesn't go for it you should be under no obligation to pay out of pocket.

Though I just looked at the damage done and it seems very minor, not like its now nonfunctional.. still did it have insurance on it or not? If so usually the buyer has to file the claim, because he's the one noting the damage on arrival.

btw I think your conspiracy theory of the double powerbook switch is ridiculous

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: Cowdog ]

[iRebound]

Originally posted by zigzag:
<STRONG>1) How soon after he recieved the PB did the buyer complain? He has a duty to inspect the PB and notify the seller of any defects within a reasonable time. Anything longer than half a day in this case would make me (and probably a judge) very suspicious. Most people buying a used PB would notice the damage and notify the seller IMMEDIATELY.</STRONG>

It took him about 2-3 days to reply that he received it broken. The Pismo was insured for $1500. I offer to file an insurance claim but he refuses.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by iRebound:
<STRONG>

It took him about 2-3 days to reply that he received it broken. The Pismo was insured for $1500. I offer to file an insurance claim but he refuses.</STRONG>

I find it odd that it took him more than a day to notify you of the damage. A cracked trackpad and screen would be noticeable right away, and I would want to notify the seller right away. That (and the fact that he doesn't want to make an insurance claim) adds to the suspicion that the PB was damaged after he received it. But it's mostly speculation at this point.

[dmcknigh]

Well something fishy is going on here. To me it's simple. Have an independent person verify and notorize the serial number on the 'Book. If they match file a claim with the USPS. If they don't press fraud charges on the guy. Heck if the SN matches you should file a claim (as the shipper) and refund his money from the claim. You both win in that case. You get your Titainium and he gets his money back to go do whatever. As for your ebay rating, on a case by case basis they can remove feedback and restore your rating if you can prove that the comments were false, malicious, etc.

Gook luck. Keep us informed.

[King Chung Huang]

I highly recommend you head over to the OTWA Community. The guys there can help you with your problem. Visit the eBay forum first, then the Paypal forum if the guys there tell you to.

[iRebound]

Thanx for your opinion guys, this really help me a lot. I will check out the OTWA Community. Since I made the web site of the proofs on the Pismo, I haven't heard from the buyer since. Now let's see what ebay and paypal decide.