[Dopey]

I am a relative new mac user and use Windows 2000 during the day, so perhaps that explains the difficulties I have with using OS X but I find the certain aspects of OS X annoying and inferior to the Windows OS system:

Here is what I mean.

If I have an app running and in the dock and I want to close it, I have to first click on the icon in the dock (or on a window on the desktop) to bring it to the foreground, and then go to the app menu at the top and select "exit" from the pull-down menu. In Windows, I just right click on the icon in the taskbar and select "close" from the pulldown menu. Windows requires fewer steps.
There is a similar need for extra steps in the way windows and apps function together. Take browsing for instance (Safari is amazing, btw). When I am done browsing for the moment and want to declutter my desktop, I close the window (same in OS X or Windows). When I want to browse again, in Windows I can just click on the icon in the taskbar and the app and a new browser window opens. In OS X, I click on the icon to make it current (since I haven't exited and it is still running) and then have to go to the pulldown menu at the top and select new browser window. Again, too many steps. I can avoid this problem in OS X by closing the browser app instead of the window, but then that takes the extra steps I described above. Shouldn't clicking on the dock icon of an app that is running but has no open windows automatically launch a new window (btw, I seem to remember that it once did - has that changed with Jaguar)?

Perhaps I am using OS X inefficiently but I view these extra steps as a nuisance in the OS functionality.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Dopey:
I am a relative new mac user and use Windows 2000 during the day, so perhaps that explains the difficulties I have with using OS X but I find the certain aspects of OS X annoying and inferior to the Windows OS system:

Here is what I mean.

If I have an app running and in the dock and I want to close it, I have to first click on the icon in the dock (or on a window on the desktop) to bring it to the foreground, and then go to the app menu at the top and select "exit" from the pull-down menu. In Windows, I just right click on the icon in the taskbar and select "close" from the pulldown menu. Windows requires fewer steps.

Right-click (or control-click or click'n'hold) the app in the Dock and select 'Quit'.

There is a similar need for extra steps in the way windows and apps function together. Take browsing for instance (Safari is amazing, btw). When I am done browsing for the moment and want to declutter my desktop, I close the window (same in OS X or Windows). When I want to browse again, in Windows I can just click on the icon in the taskbar and the app and a new browser window opens. In OS X, I click on the icon to make it current (since I haven't exited and it is still running) and then have to go to the pulldown menu at the top and select new browser window. Again, too many steps. I can avoid this problem in OS X by closing the browser app instead of the window, but then that takes the extra steps I described above. Shouldn't clicking on the dock icon of an app that is running but has no open windows automatically launch a new window (btw, I seem to remember that it once did - has that changed with Jaguar)?

It does spawn a new window when you click the app icon in the Dock...I don't know why it's not doing it in your case. Is a window minimized or is the "Downloads" manager window open while you're clicking on the Safari icon? If no windows are minimized and the Downloads window is closed, clicking on Safari brings up a brand spankin' new browser window.

[Judge_Fire]

Also, keyboard shortcuts are very concistent on the Mac so:

CMD-Q (CMD is short for 'command' which means 'Apple Key' on the keyboard) quits any app. You can CMD-TAB to an app in the Dock, then CMD-Q to quit or CMD-H to hide.

Safari pops up a window for me too.

J

[percival]

If you have an app running in the dock and you want to close it, just right click and a pop-up menu appears that will allow you to "quit" the app, just like in Windows. And you can even hide the app from this menu. BTW OS X does not use "exit" as a means of closing an app, it's "Quit" unless specified by a third party developer. As to a running app without an open window, most often clicking the app icon in the dock will open a new window, Safari at the moment does not do this, but it's still in the beta stage of development.

Tis true the behavior needs a bit of refining, but given your post I suspect you might be trolling.

[Judge_Fire]

It'd be nice to have a 'New Window' item in more apps' Dock Menus, for those situations where you want a new window, but don't want to pop up a minimized one. Safari feedback time!

J

[Dopey]

Thanks all.

Re clicking to close- I know about keyboard shortcuts but the idea is not to need the keyboard and the mouse - e.g., first you need to click on the icon and then use the keyboard shortcut. In Windows it is mouse only. I suppose I can get a two button mouse. (Does anyone know of one as nice looking as the apple pro mouse?) I haven't tried holding the click on the dock icon and waiting for a menu to pop up but that might be o.k. if the pause isn't too long.

As for spawning, your feedback leads me to think I must have done something funny and will check again. In any case, shouldn't this behavior apply to other apps like Word and Mail (I have had the same complaint with Mail - why would I click on the Mail icon in the dock if I don't want the mailbox window to open - and it doesn't - I have to open it myself. This is a particular problem because I never want to exit Mail, it needs to run in order to check for new mail. I am at work but perhaps someone check how this works on their machine as well).

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by Dopey:
This is a particular problem because I never want to exit Mail, it needs to run in order to check for new mail. I am at work but perhaps someone check how this works on their machine as well).

Mail pops up a window for me, if none is open. Hmm. Something must be wrong with your system - plz doublecheck.

While checking out the 'holding mouse button down on dock icon', please note that Mail's icon includes 'Get New Mail' and 'Compose New Message'. I sent so elaborate wishes for these to Apple Feedback back in the day and ... they came true! The Dock shortcut for checking new mail is nice, because it doesn't require wrangling or even viewing any Mail windows - the result is indicated by the mail count in the icon. Fast!

J

[percival]

I just checked most of my aps, and the window behavior in the dock does seem to be consistant. Even Safari will spawn a new window if no windows are open. Which is funny because when I fist installed the beta it didn't seem to this.

[lookmark]

Originally posted by Dopey:
Re clicking to close- I know about keyboard shortcuts but the idea is not to need the keyboard and the mouse - e.g., first you need to click on the icon and then use the keyboard shortcut. In Windows it is mouse only.

I agree that windows minimized in the dock should be closable via right-click or press. (sigh) I'm hoping for improvements in window management in the next major update.

As an aside (speaking of window management) -- this uses a combination of mouse and keyboard, but that's the way to use your computer after all -- I find using the window-cycling command (command-~, for U.S. keyboards) extremely useful. The combination of hiding apps, app switching by command-tab, and window cycling by command-~ can be very powerful.

As for spawning, your feedback leads me to think I must have done something funny and will check again. In any case, shouldn't this behavior apply to other apps like Word and Mail (I have had the same complaint with Mail - why would I click on the Mail icon in the dock if I don't want the mailbox window to open - and it doesn't - I have to open it myself. This is a particular problem because I never want to exit Mail, it needs to run in order to check for new mail. I am at work but perhaps someone check how this works on their machine as well).

Clicking on the Dock for an app with no window should create a new window, for every well behaved app. Don't know about Word, but Mail should do this.

You also might want to try hiding apps.

command-H : hides app
option-click app in Dock: hides current app, switches to app in Dock
command-option-click app in Dock: hides all apps but app in Dock

You can use option-click to hide and switch when clicking on windows or the desktop as well.

[daftpig]

Originally posted by Dopey:

Re clicking to close- I know about keyboard shortcuts but the idea is not to need the keyboard and the mouse - e.g., first you need to click on the icon and then use the keyboard shortcut. In Windows it is mouse only. I suppose I can get a two button mouse. (Does anyone know of one as nice looking as the apple pro mouse?) I haven't tried holding the click on the dock icon and waiting for a menu to pop up but that might be o.k. if the pause isn't too long.

Well but then the problem lies with Apple supplying one-button mice with their machines and not exactly a flaw in the OS isn't it?

I think most people just use a 2-button mouse with a scroll wheel. Works perfectly just by plugging it in.

[kovacs]

If I was you I would buy myself a nice new mouse with a two buttons and a scroll wheel, I have bought one and I don't think I can ever go back to a single button mouse without a scroll wheel...

[Dopey]

[quote]As an aside (speaking of window management) -- this uses a combination of mouse and keyboard, but that's the way to use your computer after all /quote]

Thanks for your reply but I disagree. There are many times when I don't use my keyboard at all in Windows (browsing) and the OS shouldn't make me just to do OS type things.

If I am reading the replies correctly it seems that same people experience the same windows/dock behavior (at least regarding clicking on a running app not opening a new window) that I do and some don't. I wonder if this is a preference setting somehwhere.

Since many people have told me to right-click, it seems like lots of people have two-button mice. Not to start a new thread, but why doesn't Apple just ship two-button mice? It seemes odd to me that new users can't get full functionality by opening the shipping box and need to be "in the know" and order an extra mouse (also, Apple's is so nice looking - I don't want a different one). If they want to keep the look simple, perhaps they can continue to use the shell as the button but have a trigger or button near the side/bottom that is the equivalent to the "command" key. That way you get the functionality of a two button mouse without needing the keyboard or disturbing the aesthetics.

[Dopey]

O.K. you all win - I will get a new mouse (although Apple should really include one). Any suggestions - I REALLY like the look of the mac hardware (867 Quicksilver and 17 inch Studio Display) so I want: optical, a clear shell or other coordinating appearance and two buttons. I might as well throw in a scroll wheel too. If any of you are using something that fits this description, please let me know.

[lookmark]

Check out Kensington.

[awaspaas]

Just to reiterate, a two-button mouse is not mandatory for this; ctrl-click or click-and-hold does the same thing, in the Dock at least. I get along just fine using the single button on my iBook.

Have you figured out why windows don't open for you? It's standard in the UI now to spawn a new window when a windowless app is is clicked in the Dock, and that's the behavior I've always known.

[lookmark]

But he seems to like just using the mouse.

You can always press-click, btw. But it sounds like a solid two-button, programmable mouse is what you're looking for.

[awaspaas]

double-post, sorry

[sushiism]

ahh just learn shortcuts, after about a week you'll be working alot faster than you ever could in windows

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by Dopey:
but why doesn't Apple just ship two-button mice? It seemes odd to me that new users can't get full functionality by opening the shipping box and need to be "in the know" and order an extra mouse (also, Apple's is so nice looking - I don't want a different one). If they want to keep the look simple, perhaps they can continue to use the shell as the button but have a trigger or button near the side/bottom that is the equivalent to the "command" key. That way you get the functionality of a two button mouse without needing the keyboard or disturbing the aesthetics.

Two issues keeping Apple to one- button mice:

- When app developers know there are people out there with just one button, they can't break the UI rules by stupidly putting some stuff ONLY in the contextual, 'right- button' menu. (This has happened in Windows.) Now that OS X is tempting new developers, this is as important as ever - this OS has rules you're supposed to follow.

- Two identical looking buttons with different functions are a problem to new users. (I've taught total newbies on PCs, I can verify this claim!) For this reason, too, the second button should in some way be different, like you propose. It also has to work equally for left/righthanded users. A fun design challenge, it is.

J