[jasonsRX7]

As requested in another thread, here are some comparison pictures between a 1ghz 15.1" PowerBook G4, a 1.8ghz CoreDuo 15.4" MacBook Pro, and a 1.8ghz CoreDuo 14.1" Thinkpad T60. Click to enlarge.


PowerBook, MacBook Pro, Thinkpad T60


PowerBook, MacBook Pro, Thinkpad T60


PowerBook, MacBook Pro, Thinkpad T60


PowerBook, MacBook Pro, straight on screen brightness


PowerBook, MacBook Pro, angled screen brightness (notice the uneven darkening at the top of the MacBook


Thinkpad T60, MacBook Pro


Thinkpad T60, MacBook Pro angled screen brightness


PowerBook charger on top, MacBook Pro charger on bottom


My cousin Jeff standing on his Thinkpad T41

[Velocity211]

Why is the brightness of the MacBook doesn't seem as bright as the powerbook? It supposed to be a lot brighter than the PowerBook. Otherwise, great comparason.

[hookem2oo7]

i dont think the camera angle was very fair, but it does look like the PB display is brighter from that angle

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by Velocity211

Why is the brightness of the MacBook doesn't seem as bright as the powerbook? It supposed to be a lot brighter than the PowerBook. Otherwise, great comparason.

That's what I don't like about the MacBook screen that I don't see many people talking about. If you look straight on or at a lower angle, the MacBook screen looks really dark. You have to be looking more down at the screen for it to look bright. All LCD screens change brightness as you change your viewing angle, but the MacBook is not very uniform in its changes. The effect makes it look like a gradient from dark at the top to lighter at the bottom.

The MacBook isn't the only laptop with this type of screen. I've also seen the very same effect on 15" Thinkpad screens.

[freakboy2]

uh.. why would you stand on a laptop?

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by hookem2oo7

i dont think the camera angle was very fair, but it does look like the PB display is brighter from that angle

I tried to make them as similar as possible. The screens were adjusted to the same angles, and the same distance from the camera. If you'd like me to try it any differently, let me know how to set it up.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by freakboy2

uh.. why would you stand on a laptop?

Just to show durability... An advantage plastic has over aluminum.

[freakboy2]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

Just to show durability... An advantage plastic has over aluminum.

Yeah, but standing on the laptop to show durability would be all fun and games until you poke your laptop's eye out. or you hear a little *crack*

that would stink.

[hookem2oo7]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

I tried to make them as similar as possible. The screens were adjusted to the same angles, and the same distance from the camera. If you'd like me to try it any differently, let me know how to set it up.

i realize that i was just giving my opinion

[SEkker]

My MBP screen is definitely brighter than a revB PB12 and my revA PB17 screens. Indeed, it's comparable -- when looking straight on -- to the brightness of my Dell 24" at work.

If you have any questions, the best strategy is to take your current laptop to an Apple store and put them side by side.

As for the Thinkpad, I think it demonstrates what kind of machine we can potentially expect to see with the MacBooks.

[pete]

sadly, I think Apple's priorities are not the kind of rugged durability that has been typical for thinkpads for years. How could Apple go back to plastic after using metal for so long? As long as they use thin aluminum sheets for the shell, Apple laptops will not be as durable as the thinkpads with their composite material.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by pete

How could Apple go back to plastic after using metal for so long?

Hopefully the same way they switched to x86 after using PPC for so long

[andretan]

Wow. The new charger is... huge...

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by pete

sadly, I think Apple's priorities are not the kind of rugged durability that has been typical for thinkpads for years. How could Apple go back to plastic after using metal for so long? As long as they use thin aluminum sheets for the shell, Apple laptops will not be as durable as the thinkpads with their composite material.

The nice thing is that a metal enclosure acts as an heatsink and therefore there is barely any need for the fan to come up, saving energy and being quieter. My T42 fan comes up all the time, even at low performance settings. I'll take a warm enclosure over a noisy fan. IMO going back to plastic would be a step backwards.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by villalobos

The nice thing is that a metal enclosure acts as an heatsink and therefore there is barely any need for the fan to come up, saving energy and being quieter.

That gives me an idea, I could go stand in front of the windows at my house and use my body to shield them from the sun to so that my A/C won't come on.

The option to choose in software whether to run the fans more or less would be nice, IMO.

Originally Posted by villalobos

My T42 fan comes up all the time, even at low performance settings.

Yes, the T4x fans make this annoying 'boing' sound sometimes. It was a firmware update that made them start doing that.

[volcano]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

That's what I don't like about the MacBook screen that I don't see many people talking about. If you look straight on or at a lower angle, the MacBook screen looks really dark. You have to be looking more down at the screen for it to look bright. All LCD screens change brightness as you change your viewing angle, but the MacBook is not very uniform in its changes. The effect makes it look like a gradient from dark at the top to lighter at the bottom.

The MacBook isn't the only laptop with this type of screen. I've also seen the very same effect on 15" Thinkpad screens.

My iBook (1.33GHz 12") did the same thing - horribly. Granted, you can't even compare quality/brightness of an iBook's screen to the MacBook Pro's, but the same principle still applies - and it annoyed me to no end.

[Barefoot Matt]

This may be too obvious, but when you took the pictures comparing screen brightness, did you crank the MBP's brightness up to max and turn of the ambient light-related dimming? I didn't have a PB before my MBP, but just going by what I've heard and other pictures I've seen that comparison just doesn't look right.

[iREZ]

for the pic comparing the powerbook and macbook screens at an angle...place not the camera but the camera lens right between the two screens (your shot has the powerbook more head on and the macbook at an angle), turn off ambient light meter on both (if the powerbook indeed has it), make sure both screen are at 100% of their brightness, and you should see a decent comparison.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by iREZ

for the pic comparing the powerbook and macbook screens at an angle...place not the camera but the camera lens right between the two screens (your shot has the powerbook more head on and the macbook at an angle), turn off ambient light meter on both (if the powerbook indeed has it), make sure both screen are at 100% of their brightness, and you should see a decent comparison.

Actually the picture is an accurate representation of what you physically see when you're in front of it. The PowerBook does not have the ambient light sensor, and on the MacBook it was indeed turned off. Both screens are at 100% brightness (as you can see by the slider in the preferences window) and both systems are running off AC power.

Both displays were calibrated using the advanced settings of the built in color calibration to the best of my ability. I figured if I used some of the premade calibrations, someone would say it wasn't fair because they weren't calibrated.

I'll be glad to take the pictures again using your suggestions, but I can honestly say that what you see in the pictures is what you see in real life... The MacBook screen darkens unevenly from top to bottom as you lower your viewing angle.

[production_coordinator]

IMHO, plastic, metal... who cares. As long as it looks great!

[iREZ]

i was referring to the image where both are tilted back a bit...the camera is skewed in favor of the powerbook and the macbook pro looks pretty dark.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by iREZ

the camera is skewed in favor of the powerbook and the macbook pro looks pretty dark.

That's because it is pretty dark. You're right about it being skewed slightly toward the Pbook, but that's not what's making it look dark. It doesn't have good brightness / color uniformity when viewed from lower angles which is why I decided to take a picture of it in the first place. I'll take some pictures tonight from directly in front of the MBP.

If there's any other picture / angle requests, let me know tonight because I have to send the MBP back tomorrow.

I do want to say again that the MBP is not the only laptop I have seen exhibit this effect. I have also seen it on a few 15" Thinkpad T42s. So I supposed it's related to a certain LCD manufacturer or manufacturing process. I could imagine it being a real problem for people doing graphics work on them.

[Star-Fire]

I do graphics work on mine and it's fine, I never look at it from that kind of angle if I'm doing work, when using the screen straight on it's wonderful.

[pete]

I'm curious about what it looks like from the side vis-a-vis the powerbook and thinkpad. Would you mind snapping a few pics from an angle - maybe around 30-45 degrees?

Thanks!

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by pete

I'm curious about what it looks like from the side vis-a-vis the powerbook and thinkpad. Would you mind snapping a few pics from an angle - maybe around 30-45 degrees?

Sure... I did my best to get them all from the same angle. Once again, all were running off AC power, full brightness, no auto screen dimming.

1ghz 15.1" Powerbook G4


1.8ghz 15.4" MacBook Pro


1.8ghz 14.1" Thinkpad T60

[pete]

Thanks! I guess it's hard to say from the pictures, but to me it seems as though the Thinkpad has the best screen overall without any inconsistencies, followed by the Powerbook and then the macbook pro. While the macbook seems slightly brighter, there's more to a good screen than brightness. And although the Thinkpad is not as bright it seems more uniform and colors more vivid from all angles. that could simply be a result of calibration I suppose, but I've always felt that the Thinkpads have gread LCDs and this one is obviously no exception.

thanks for taking the pictures!

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by pete

Thanks! I guess it's hard to say from the pictures, but to me it seems as though the Thinkpad has the best screen overall without any inconsistencies, followed by the Powerbook and then the macbook pro.

While it could be argued that inconsistencies in my pictures, such as lighting, angle, and calibration could have led to inaccurate results, I'm here to tell you from experience that your summation is pretty much correct. The Powerbook screen is over two years old, though, so we can cut it a little slack.

I've always felt that the Thinkpads have gread LCDs and this one is obviously no exception.

Keep in mind though, that the 15" Thinkpad screens (that I've seen anyway) suffer from the exact same issues as the MacBook. I buy 14" Thinkpads for most of our employees, but the few that have requested 15" screens all ended up like that, which is exactly why I opted for the 14.

[TailsToo]

Originally Posted by volcano

My iBook (1.33GHz 12") did the same thing - horribly. Granted, you can't even compare quality/brightness of an iBook's screen to the MacBook Pro's, but the same principle still applies - and it annoyed me to no end.

But more importantly, can you stand on it?

[24klogos]

nice carpet on those pics.

[Velocity211]

a bit OT but, aluminum is better than plastic if you don't mind the heat and it dissipates heat as well? I rather have a computer that won't screw up when it's really hot than a hot lap.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by Velocity211

a bit OT but, aluminum is better than plastic if you don't mind the heat and it dissipates heat as well? I rather have a computer that won't screw up when it's really hot than a hot lap.

There's going to be people that say aluminum is better because it acts as a heat sink helping to draw the heat away from the inside. Those people tend to believe that a plastic case insulates you from the heat, keeping the heat in and making it hotter internally.

There's also people (and I'm one of them) that say that if the MacBook was being sufficiently cooled on the inside, it wouldn't get as hot on the outside, regardless of the case material. I just don't see where the MacBook is getting as much cool air in, and hot air out, as the T60.

Basically, I think the T60 runs so much cooler not because of it's plastic case, but because it's doing a much better job cooling the inside. It may come at the expense of fan noise (although the T60 is by no means loud) but the result is that I can use it on my lap without being uncomfortable or my palms and legs sweating.

Originally Posted by 24klogos

nice carpet on those pics.

I'll be sure to tell my cousin you like his carpet

[Simon]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

Those people tend to believe that a plastic case insulates you from the heat, keeping the heat in and making it hotter internally.

Umm, sorry, but that's not a belief, it's knowledge. As every physicist will be able to tell you plastics (<1 W/m.K) have much lower heat conductivity than metals like Al (237 W/m.K). Plastic insulates heat better, metals conduct heat better. That's not a belief, it's a fact. Of course how you use fans to remove that heat is another issue.

[pete]

I'm sure the Thinkpad will last just as long as the powerbook despite its plastic exterior so I don't see why anybody would want aluminum over plastic except for the beauty of it. Even though many people seem to be ok with the heat, surely they would be happier if it were cooler ? Apple is only sticking to the metal case to distinguish itself from others and that is not, in my opinion, sufficient reason. I would be much happier if Apple could distinguish itself through innovative ergonomics and design rather than aesthetics and I even think that they could have both using a different material.

I'm dying for a macbook so I can run Dragon Naturally speaking on windows without a second windows box and was, once again, about to go ahead this past week. However, when I went for a last look at the macbook pro at Tekserve, it was way too hot for my comfort, especially compared to tthe 17" powerbook right next to it.

[pat++]

Originally Posted by freakboy2

uh.. why would you stand on a laptop?

To try to make it thinner.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by Simon

Umm, sorry, but that's not a belief, it's knowledge. As every physicist will be able to tell you plastics (<1 W/m.K) have much lower heat conductivity than metals like Al (237 W/m.K). Plastic insulates heat better, metals conduct heat better. That's not a belief, it's a fact. Of course how you use fans to remove that heat is another issue.

I realize that metal is a better conductor of heat, but if the heat is not being removed from the inside, wouldn't a plastic case eventually get just as hot? If I were to stick a piece of plastic and a piece of aluminum in an oven set to 200 degrees, would they not eventually both reach 200 degrees?

Maybe another way to look at it is to imagine a MacBook with a plastic case which is otherwise identical. If the cooling system isn't doing its job of removing heat from the inside, won't that plastic case eventually get just as hot as aluminum? You tell me because I'm no physicist.

[volcano]

Originally Posted by pete

[...] so I don't see why anybody would want aluminum over plastic except for the beauty of it. Even though many people seem to be ok with the heat, surely they would be happier if it were cooler ?

No thank you.

You would honestly be okay with Apple passing off a laptop as ugly as that Thinkpad? You've got to be kidding me. Apple is a hardware company - and they're known for aesthetically beautiful machines like the iMac, MacBook Pro/Powerbook, and Power Macs. If they came out with a disgusting looking machine that looked like the T42, it's safe to say we would see the biggest backlash against Apple ever. The Pismo Powerbook wasn't half-bad looking for a black, plastic laptop - but the Powerbook/MacBook Pros are gorgeous. Apple has taste - which is rare for a computer company of this day and age to have.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

I realize that metal is a better conductor of heat, but if the heat is not being removed from the inside, wouldn't a plastic case eventually get just as hot? If I were to stick a piece of plastic and a piece of aluminum in an oven set to 200 degrees, would they not eventually both reach 200 degrees?

Of course, but that's not the point. Basically, you have a power source on the inside, a conductor and an isothermal surrounding. The good conductor will be hotter than the bad conductor and the inside of the better conducting box will be cooler (T only rises when P_out < P_source) because more heat is conducted to the outside. Your plastic box can only have the same internal temperature if you use additional means of removing heat -> fans.

[mrmister]

I think it's amazing that you can stand on a ThinkPad--that rocks. While I do love the look and feel of my PowerBook, I think it's only sensible to envy and admire that kind of sturdiness--that's one tough laptop.

Put it this way--ugly or not, if a ThinkPad could run OS X legally I would definitely consider it in my laptop deliberations--they have great keyboards, incredibly sturdy and can be used on laps without fear of burns.

[Mack]

No doubt about it: As a step-ladder, the ThinkPad is the clear winner!

[jhonizzle]

if i wanted a laptop i could stand on, i would have bought a ToughBook. but like most normal people, i don't worry about how much i can throw around my laptop. i prefert to keep my stuff in good working order, so when i put my MBP down i place it down not throw it down. don't get me wrong Plastic is a great material for laptops if your into over heating cracking and having to replace an entire laptop because of one fall, wrather than replacing an aluminum sheet with a dent. let me think....dent or new just about everything(having to replace everything) i'll take the dent.

but even so i will never have a dent because my MBP is my baby, and nothing will ever happen to it ::huggs MBP and kisses it:: sweet

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by jhonizzle

don't get me wrong Plastic is a great material for laptops if your into over heating cracking and having to replace an entire laptop because of one fall, wrather than replacing an aluminum sheet with a dent. let me think....dent or new just about everything(having to replace everything) i'll take the dent.

Oh come on, you're taking the whole "everything Apple does is perfection" thing a little too far. I guarantee you that a decent composite plastic material is more durable in just about every situation than a thin aluminum shell.

But lets put our money where our mouth is. Since some of you seem to think that standing on a laptop isn't a good demonstration of its durability, how about a more likely scenario? Maybe dropping an unopened 12oz can of soda on the top of a Powerbook from a height of 2 feet? I'll do it to my Thinkpad. Or maybe putting a Powerbook in the back seat of a car and then throwing a briefcase on top of it? I'll do that too. Any of you name one durability demonstration you're confident in performing to your Power/MacBook and I'll more than match it on my Thinkpad. Post your pics and I'll post mine.

And since plastic is so bad for making laptops overheat, lets really show how much better aluminum is... Take your Powerbook and start it running at 100% CPU usage and set it on top of your bed. Come back in an hour and put your hand under it. Will you still feel so certain that the aluminum case is keeping it safely cool on the inside? Of course, I'm sure that's just as unlikely a scenario as standing on a laptop. I mean, who in their right mind would ever use a PowerBook on anything other than a hard flat surface?

Face it, you can baby your equipment all you want (I baby mine, too) but accidents happen, and you can't account for everything. Yes, I think the aluminum laptops look good, but I don't really think the plain black Thinkpads look bad, just plain. Subjective aesthetics aside, I know firsthand that I enjoy using the T60 more than the MacBook for the ways in which I use a laptop... in a cramped up wiring closet, in the bed, in a car, or of all outrageous places, in my lap.

Originally Posted by Mack

No doubt about it: As a step-ladder, the ThinkPad is the clear winner!

And the MBP gets top marks for being the only laptop that serves double duty as a desktop ornament and portable hypothermia prevention device

[freakboy2]

the ibm's might be made out of good composite materials, but most non-apple laptops i know: dell & sony are made out of total crap. If you drop them at all, all sorts of pieces break off. At least with a metal case, there's a chance for just a little dent that might just pop back out.

and then after making the laptops out of inferior materials, they offer no coverage of breakage. it's a racket.

[jhonizzle]

http://www-131.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/st...&dualCurrId=73

as far as i can see the T series doesn't have half of the performane of my MBP...looks like your better off putting XP on the MBP. and i'll match your photo of standing on the Think pad here in a sec

edit: it'll be more than a sec, because i need to get my cameras USB cable back so give me a few more hours

[pete]

I love the looks of the macbooks and I love the feeling of COLD aluminum, but when I had a thinkpad T40 last year I realised just how much I baby my powerbook. I would toss the THinkpad around, grab it anywhere with one hand, open the lid with one hand on one side, toss it in my backpack unprotected etc and it looked new without a scratch. The hinges were always tight, there was no flex or warping and I felt I could, uh, stand on it without anything going wrong. To be honest, there was a lot of appeal in the ruggedness, to the point of it feeling strangely aesthetically satisfying. Liked it a lot and the keyboard is one step up from the already superb powerbook keyboards. Of course the macbooks are great looking, but when they're hot and the display bezel is warping I just wonder if Apple should look into some alternative material - a composite like the Thinkpads, for example.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by pete

I would toss the THinkpad around, grab it anywhere with one hand, open the lid with one hand on one side

Why would anyone ever hold a laptop with one hand, or <gasp> open the lid one handed? That's just ridiculious.

Plastic is too fragile


It will crack and shatter


It can't hold up to stress


Aluminum would be much more durable in these situations... It would just dent and bend instead of cracking into a million pieces like the Thinkpad did... oh wait, that's right, it didn't.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by jhonizzle

http://www-131.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/st...&dualCurrId=73

as far as i can see the T series doesn't have half of the performane of my MBP...looks like your better off putting XP on the MBP. and i'll match your photo of standing on the Think pad here in a sec

With nearly all of the same hardware (the GPU is one step down within the same generation, but that will have a limited impact in XP), your assertion sounds a bit ridiculous. Can you support your assertion?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by jhonizzle

and i'll match your photo of standing on the Think pad here in a sec

edit: it'll be more than a sec, because i need to get my cameras USB cable back so give me a few more hours

OK, so where's it now? I'm anxious cause I'd never try that stunt with my MBP.

Look guys, as much as I disagree with Jason about the T60 being the better overall notebook experience than the MBP (because of course he couldn't be more wrong on that ) it's no use to debate durability with him.

The T60 is hands down much more sturdy than the MBP. It's got a solid, hard and thick shell made from a material that doesn't scratch, bend or warp. The Al case is thinner, softer and more flexible. The T60 is made to be able to withstand abuse, the MBP isn't. If you wanna debate that, you're delusional.

If you wanna convince him why the T60 nevertheless sucks, you'd rather point out that it's a) big, b) fat, c) fugly and d) pretty thin on the feature side (slow HDD/no option to upgrade, no widescreen option, VGA out only, 128MB VRAM max, limited max ext. resolution, no optical digital audio) and finally most and for all: It doesn't run Mac OS X. But don't try to debate durability unless you wanna lose.

[Ryan1524]

I carry my Powerbook open one handed all the time. i also hold it with one hand and open the lid with another. never held it up by the screen though, that's suicide for powerbooks.

[pete]

I've had many powerbooks and every single one has had some kind of hinge issue, ranging from extreme play and wobble in the bezel to squeaking sounds etc. Nothing very serious that thas stopped me from using them, but they all required service. I treat my powerbooks with incredible care, always open the displays from the middle, never push them back too far or in any way stress the hinge beyond very careful use. Don't get me wrong, as long as macos x is a good as it is today, I will never change to PC as my main machine. I just wish Apple would be a little more practical and try to combine their obviously superior aesthetics with equally superior ergonomics, comfort and functionality.

[jhonizzle]

thats me a 175lb guy standing on his MBP....and i'm typing this on it

now back to performance of the t60...it hasn't got half to the MBP's power