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chefpastry · Aug 24, 2007, 07:30 AM

I tried searching and couldn't find a definitive answer... Will the upcoming Penryn Xeons work in current Mac Pros? Will they run at lower lower speeds due to the fact that the 5000X chipset runs at 1333MHz FSB? Thanks in advance.

Simon · Aug 24, 2007, 09:05 AM

Harpertown (the Penryn-core based Xeon) will require the same LGA 771 socket as the currently used Woodcrest/Clovertown. So at least it should fit. The question is then if it will actually work in a MP. AFAIK nobody has actually taken a Harpertown sample and tried it yet.

Also the launch Harpertowns will use a 1333 MHz FSB which is the same the current MP is using.

However, the 1600 MHz FSB Harpertowns (5472, 5462) which are scheduled to arrive in Q407 are rumored to require a new chipset ("Seaburg"). If that is indeed the case they won't work in the current MP.

chefpastry · Aug 24, 2007, 10:07 AM

Thank you very much!

mduell · Aug 24, 2007, 05:27 PM

The socket and FSB are compatible, but there still could be a couple issues: voltage regulators and firmware. The former is a hardware problem that has impacted upgradeablity before with some of the desktop systems, the latter is a software problem that could be fixed with a software update (but I think Apple is unlikely to so).

hukalaki · Aug 28, 2007, 04:31 PM

Does this mean the MacPro is less upgradeable than one might think? No processor upgrade puts a definite limit on the machines.

mduell · Aug 28, 2007, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by hukalaki

Does this mean the MacPro is less upgradeable than one might think? No processor upgrade puts a definite limit on the machines.

Huhwtf?
You can upgrade any Mac Pro to at least dual quad 3Ghz. You may be able to go even better, but we don't know yet.

wei · Aug 29, 2007, 04:13 AM

Proc are small matter in my case.
Any idea if we could swap the memory riser card for new memory type support. Let's say DDR3?

Also, I'm curious why 8-cores have different set of upgrade kits: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=305352

Simon · Aug 29, 2007, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by wei

Any idea if we could swap the memory riser card for new memory type support. Let's say DDR3?

I seriously doubt it. Apple certainly won't supply such an upgrade option.

Also, I'm curious why 8-cores have different set of upgrade kits: Mac Pro (8-core): Memory and hard drive kit compatibility

From what I have heard (can't find the link right now) there's no physical difference between the two types of kits. But Apple's been using different part numbers according to which MP they are intended for. Although that would indicate there's some kind of difference, up to now I haven't seen reports of any.

P · Aug 29, 2007, 09:59 AM

I seem to remember that only the actual Penryn (ie, the mobile version) will require a newer VRM version - the desktop and server versions can use it if available (to support the new C6 power saving mode), but it isn't required.

As for firmware, we have no idea. Apple's record is not the best in this case - Yosemite firmware version 1.2, anyone.

wei · Aug 29, 2007, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

I seriously doubt it. Apple certainly won't supply such an upgrade option.

Thanks for the reply. It doesn't matter if it wasn't from Apple. As long as it is possible. I believe if there's demand, there will be supplies for it.

mduell · Aug 30, 2007, 03:11 AM

Does anyone else use Apple's extra-wide memory module spacing? Not that I've seen.

But if I recall correctly, one of the advantages of FB-DIMMs is that it doesn't matter what the DRAM chips are; it's all abstracted through the AMB. So if someone makes DDR3 based FB-DIMMs compatible with the 4000MT/s FB-DIMM standard, you should be good to go.

wei · Aug 30, 2007, 03:17 AM

Haha, thanks again mduell, now I can resume dreaming.

Simon · Aug 30, 2007, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by wei

It doesn't matter if it wasn't from Apple. As long as it is possible.

Of course it wouldn't have to be from Apple. But for somebody else to do it Apple quite possibly would have to release the exact specifications for their risers and interface. The question then is, why should they do that if they don't want to sell the upgrade in the first place. Apple would naturally prefer to see you buy a new MP than buy a third-party's upgrade to your old MP.

I'm not saying it won't happen at all. I'm just not convinced it will for these reasons.

Simon · Aug 30, 2007, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

However, the 1600 MHz FSB Harpertowns (5472, 5462) which are scheduled to arrive in Q407 are rumored to require a new chipset ("Seaburg"). If that is indeed the case they won't work in the current MP.

I just learned there's good side to that too. If the new MP indeed somes with 54x2 Harpertowns and the Seaburg chipset it will offer support for dual PCIe 2.0 slots (2x16 lanes) and up to 128 GB RAM. That' something the current 5000P chipset doesn't offer.

Leonard · Aug 30, 2007, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by hukalaki

Does this mean the MacPro is less upgradeable than one might think? No processor upgrade puts a definite limit on the machines.

All computers have their limitations. I can remember several times when I've heard PC friends say they can't upgrade their CPUs to the latest and greatest because the motherboard doesn't support it.

P · Aug 30, 2007, 01:42 PM

OEMs don't like you to upgrade their computers. Mobo manufacturers don't mind, so they work harder to let you, but OEMs do spike your wheel on occasion.

svtcontour · Sep 5, 2007, 03:57 PM

Ya ummm he means upgrade to something the mac pro did not ship with at the time. Everyone on the planet knows you can upgrade to dual quads. They were available that way directly from apple.

For example my asus system board was shipped when the core 2 duo was around (quads were not out). When the quads became available, they released a firmware update which allowed the quads to work. Now that the 1333 Mhz are available, another firmware update is available to allow for 1333FSB operation instead of the standard 800 and 1066. I'm sure when the quad 1333 come out, there will be an update yet again.

So what the guy wants to know, is will apple release a firmware or software update to allow for the penryn which already fits in a socket 771 to work with the mac pro and if not, then does that not mean the mac pro is less upgradable since in PC land, the board you picked up last year will likely get a firmware update to work with the next generation processor. Now of course Penryn may not work with the existing FBDIMMS or chipsets but the guy was just asking this type of general question.

Originally Posted by mduell

Huhwtf?
You can upgrade any Mac Pro to at least dual quad 3Ghz. You may be able to go even better, but we don't know yet.

mduell · Sep 5, 2007, 05:45 PM

The Mac Pros that shipped when only dual core chips were out will happily support quad core chips, just like your Asus board. They don't even need a firmware update. And they've always supported 1333Mhz FSB, which your Asus board just had crippled when it was released. But just like your Asus board won't support 1600Mhz FSB, neither will the current or past Mac Pros.

Given their history, Apple absolutely will not release a firmware upgrade to add support for newer chips to older Mac Pros. If the new chips work with the current firmware that's fine, but Apple has little incentive to help people upgrade.

chefpastry · Sep 5, 2007, 05:46 PM

What about the Tigertons? Will those work in the current Mac Pros?

svtcontour · Sep 6, 2007, 06:05 AM

But everyone knows that the Mac Pro's are upgradable to dual quads. Its the same computer with the same board and everything. Its just a BTO option. They've always supported dual quads even if it shipped with dual duals. Its nothing special. Pull the cpu out and put the new one in. Its not like Apple went out of their way or anything.

Hukalaki was asking if the macpro will support future generations of intel processors that will be socket 771. The kind of processors not available when the Mac pros got shipped.

Furethermore, Asus did not have to go out of their way to provide any firmware updates for a 1 year old board to support new and upcoming core2 series running at 1333. Many other motherboard makers based on the same chipset have not done so and will force you to go and buy a new board so with respect to that, Asus did go out of their way to at last provide something. Thats what I was getting at.

Look at it this way, if 6 months from now, intel releases mobile series of Core2 CPUs running with 1333Mhz FSB, will Apple provide a firmware update for the Mac Mini or iMac to support the electrically and pin compatible CPU? If not, then are they not on purpose limiting people's upgrade path and as the other user said, doesnt that make upgrades more difficult and limiting then? I'm guessing it will be compared to build your own machines but I wonder if companies like HP or Dell provide any firmware updates as Asus did for my board. Maybe nobody does other than the actual motherboard makers.

Originally Posted by mduell

The Mac Pros that shipped when only dual core chips were out will happily support quad core chips, just like your Asus board. They don't even need a firmware update. And they've always supported 1333Mhz FSB, which your Asus board just had crippled when it was released. But just like your Asus board won't support 1600Mhz FSB, neither will the current or past Mac Pros.

Given their history, Apple absolutely will not release a firmware upgrade to add support for newer chips to older Mac Pros. If the new chips work with the current firmware that's fine, but Apple has little incentive to help people upgrade.

mduell · Sep 6, 2007, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by chefpastry

What about the Tigertons? Will those work in the current Mac Pros?

No, and you wouldn't want to anyway.

Originally Posted by svtcontour

Hukalaki was asking if the macpro will support future generations of intel processors that will be socket 771. The kind of processors not available when the Mac pros got shipped.

<snip>

Look at it this way, if 6 months from now, intel releases mobile series of Core2 CPUs running with 1333Mhz FSB, will Apple provide a firmware update for the Mac Mini or iMac to support the electrically and pin compatible CPU? If not, then are they not on purpose limiting people's upgrade path and as the other user said, doesnt that make upgrades more difficult and limiting then? I'm guessing it will be compared to build your own machines but I wonder if companies like HP or Dell provide any firmware updates as Asus did for my board. Maybe nobody does other than the actual motherboard makers.

If you bought a Mac Pro last September, you got exactly that. Only duals were available at the time, quads were not. Once quads came out, you could happily drop them in your previously dual-only logic board.

No, because the chipset in the Mac mini/iMac doesn't support 1333Mhz FSB in hardware. Hukalaki bought a chipset that supported 1333Mhz and quads in hardware, but didn't have the support in firmware, so Asus was able to 'upgrade' it with only a firmware change. The Mac Pro firmware gives you the full capability of the chipset in the Mac Pro. Asus crippled the firmware at launch and fixed it later.

Although this is getting off topic, when Dell's gamer machines ran into an issue where the motherboard didn't support a new CPU they replaced all the motherboards for free (google XPS 700). But they wouldn't do that with their low-end lines.