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BRussell · Jul 29, 2001, 11:01 AM

In OS 9, there were various app launchers, switchers, and system controls all over the place. The top-left Apple menu, the top-right app switcher, the bottom-left Control Strip.

The dock unified and simplified all this mess. There are some problems with the dock, but its strength is that logically, it's much simpler than retaining all of those various functions in separate locations.

Now, they've gone to System Menus. Things are starting to spread all over the place again. There's no logical reason to put these things in the menu bar. They should keep them in the dock.

What's sad about this is that I'm sure this is an example of Apple "listening to its customers." People complained that they wanted their OS 9 Control Strip back. The problem is, they shouldn't have listened here. They're diluting the logic and consistency of the dock.

Jul 29, 2001, 11:16 AM

There's no logical reason to put these things in the menu bar.

The fact that the dock is occupied by several unrelated and poorly-differentiated-amongst items in unlabeled divisions, and that it shrinks instead of scrolls when it fills up, and that people did ask for something like system menus isn't logical enough for you?

Jul 29, 2001, 11:22 AM

(Oh, and not that I think the previous solution was much better... I think a few improvements here and there would fix a lot of problems in Aqua)

IonCable · Jul 29, 2001, 02:02 PM

I would like to see a "multi-dock" Basically the same dock as we know it, but you can put an app "Folder" in it. When you go over the folder another dock rises above the first dock with the apps in it or whatever. Kind of like the menus that appear now, but more automatic and with icons.

jblakeh1 · Jul 29, 2001, 02:09 PM

I have to agree... Aqua was originally about simplicity. The Public Beta needed some tuning, no doubt, but the simplicity is definitely getting lost.

Thankfully, it looks as if nothing is forced- if you don't want System Menus, you can remove them. Which is very Mac.

sheer · Jul 29, 2001, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by IonCable:
I would like to see a "multi-dock" Basically the same dock as we know it, but you can put an app "Folder" in it. When you go over the folder another dock rises above the first dock with the apps in it or whatever. Kind of like the menus that appear now, but more automatic and with icons.

That could have possibilities although you've gotta think how big it would be (ie same size as normal dock) and how responsive it would be (ie if moving the mouse of it would hide it, or would it stay there until a folder/app was opened) plus already I have folders in the dock which open when ctrl or right clicking.

happyOSXDude · Jul 29, 2001, 02:25 PM

Most of us cheered when they put the clock up in the corner (it used to be in the dock). Why does it work with one control (clock) and not more (volume control)

?

I'll try it when it comes out and then decide for myself.

jwblase · Jul 29, 2001, 02:53 PM

quote from IONCABLE

I would like to see a "multi-dock" Basically the same dock as we know it, but you can put an app "Folder" in it. When you go over the folder another dock rises above the first dock with the apps in it or whatever. Kind of like the menus that appear now, but more automatic and with icons.

This currently does exist. Drag your Applications folder down to the right hand side of the dock. A folder labeled Applications will appear there (It's just an alias to the real folder). If you control-click, (or right click for us two button mouse users), the list of the contents will appear in a list above the folder. I've also put my home folder in the dock, and several other folders which I want quick access too. It works just like the old apple menu used to.

Dalgo · Jul 29, 2001, 02:57 PM

I like having the clock and the volume in the menubar. I hide the dock because it's just too huge and I being able to just look up at the upper right hand corner of my screen as opposed to moving my mouse down and making the dock appear if I want to check the time. On a similar note I always want to mess with the volume and I hate opening the system preferences in order to so it. I did get a docklet that does it for me, but then I discovered PTHVolume and that way way faster and more convenient than the docklet. PTHVolume is a menubar thing exactly like what will be in 10.1. I'm glad to see that a menubar volume control will become standard.

JB72 · Jul 29, 2001, 05:29 PM

I think these new system menu items are a God send for OS X. Takes alot of burden off the dock. And they're optional. If the rumors about releasing a standard API for 3rd parties is true, we'll see some really neat add-ons. I'm sure somebody will make an Apple Menu II.

CharlesS · Jul 29, 2001, 06:42 PM

How could you complain about system menus? It's a feature that should have been there from the start. Sure I could use a dockling, but it takes up a lot of dock space to have all those docklings for volume, monitor bit depth and resolution, PPP status, etc. while there's all this wasted space in the menu bar, sitting there doing nothing. I wished for this ever since I saw the screenshots of the Public Beta, and it's so obvious that even a Windows user I know, when I showed him OS X and the problem of replacing the control strip, said the same thing I and many others pointed out - you can just put it on the right of the menu bar! It's a great place to put this stuff and it's currently unused except for the clock.

I myself am going to love being able to switch resolution quickly without having to sacrifice Dock space. If we want to complain about something, let's at least make it something important like the state of type/creator versus file extensions, extension hiding, etc.

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: CharlesS ]

Jul 29, 2001, 09:10 PM

is the apple menu in os x a kind of system menu or should it be on the right too? it just seems like the MAIN system menu sorta.

psu03bob · Jul 29, 2001, 10:24 PM

Just as long as my menu bar doesn't become just like the windows taskbar with every application adding a stupid little icon next to my clock I have no objections. I thought I heard that these little menu extras will drag in and out of the menu bar like docklings do in and out of the dock. If so then hopefully it will not be like windows where some people have 10-20 taskbar icons and don't know how to remove them. I do miss having a quick way to adjust volume or connect/disconnect from the internet. Hey someone could even write an application switcher... More choices are always a good thing.

JB72 · Jul 29, 2001, 11:31 PM

Amen Charles. It seems obvious to me to. For modern computing, these out of the way but still there icons/menus are a must. I wish ICQ would do one for Mac. I love how Palm uses it in OS 9.

CAM · Jul 29, 2001, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by BRussell:

The dock unified and simplified all this mess. There are some problems with the dock, but its strength is that logically, it's much simpler than retaining all of those various functions in separate locations.

I love the idea of the dock as a centralized control area and I think it works especially well for the new user. The new system menus, being optional, add functionality and flexibility without diminishing that centralized control. To me, they are much better than the OS 9 control strip since they take no desktop real estate, are drag and drop friendly and always visible. I Love them!

It is wonderful to watch Mac OS X mature.

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: CAM ]

Scrod · Jul 30, 2001, 12:46 AM

I think it's a perfectly good idea. System menus is just another instance of having a second way of doing things. This is what the classic Mac OS was all about! Now if they started putting application aliases and icons up in the menu bar, I would start to complain, as that would directly conflict with the role of the dock.
Remember Steve Jobs demonstrating iTunes' additional dock menu functionality? If ICQ needed to duplicate the functionality of its Windows counterpart a la an icon in the "system tray", everything it would need to do could be done through ICQ's icon in the dock. No "system menu" icon would be necessary for ICQ.

Edit: I'm elite now. Ho ho ho.

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Scrod ]

Jul 30, 2001, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by psu03bob:
...Hey someone could even write an application switcher...

Someone already did. Look for ASM on Versiontracker.

ginoledesma · Jul 30, 2001, 09:50 AM

I personally would like to be able to put dividers in the dock. I'd like to organize apps into related groups -- such as Internet, Productivity, etc...

I don't mind System Menus either, especially since that would mean more space on my dock. I'd like to have roughly 5-7 icons on the dock. The more icons there are, the more time I have to spend looking for it. And with system menus being available all the time, tweaking certain parts of the system is now probably one step less.

Unfortunately, however, that would mean less space in the top menubar. As of the moment, some apps take up a lot of space such that I can no longer read the time as one of the menu overlaps with the time (I have X-Assist enabled).

On a side note, is there an application in OS X that acts like the Launcher in Mac OS 9.x? I usually launch apps from the Launcher, or through aliases in my Applications folder under the Apple Menu items.

Richard Clark · Jul 30, 2001, 10:57 AM

When I first started using the Dock I created some alias folders that was set up very much like the Apple Menu in 9.1. Over time though I dragged both hard drives over. This has been nice. Been able to navigate now more because of this.

A couple ideas that I sent Apple was to allow the dock to be movable. Obviously this will happen with 10.1 to an extent. But my thinking was that it be integrated into the menu bar side by side the Apple Menu. Or allow dividers in the Apple Menu.

One point that was brought up in here is how much real estate gets used up. The size of the dock can be adjusted. But there should be something done about icon views in the dock or even minimizing the icons.

The more I use the dock the more I don't mind it. It is bulky and uncomfortable for many reasons. But hopefully with the changes coming 10.1 will help us out quite a bit.