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JCT · Jan 28, 2006, 09:48 AM

Hi all,

My son has discovered Garageband and Sibelius and we are starting to fight over *my* Quad. I have a Sawtooth + 800Ghz upgrade that we use as a media server, but I don't want to give it up

.

So I am digging around for a reasonable used PowerMac for him, he already has his own external FW drive for his music, and I am willing to boost his machine to 1.0 or 1.5 GB RAM, but I would like to find a stock Dual at a reasonable speed and price. I have an extra LCD.

I can get a Dual 1 Ghz QS (2002) for ~450 - 500 with the specs I want. I think the deal is pretty good, I am a bit leery of the MDD wind tunnels because it will be in his room.

Do you think this will do the trick? Are their other machines I should be looking at instead?

JT

galarneau · Jan 28, 2006, 10:11 AM

I thought the MDD PowerMacs were quieter than the Quicksilvers.

I had a Dual 800, and it was anything but quiet.

JCT · Jan 28, 2006, 12:20 PM

I thought the MDD PowerMacs were quieter than the Quicksilvers.

I had a Dual 800, and it was anything but quiet.

You may be right, I must say that especially for us relatively new Mac Users, the period from 2001 - 2003 is rather confusing!

JT

Weezer · Jan 28, 2006, 01:21 PM

The G4 will choke if you start to add in a lot of tracks and effects. Im not sure how complicated his music is, but you might be happier with a 17 imac core duo with upgraded RAM.

Mac Write · Jan 28, 2006, 04:36 PM

Ya the iMac seems like the best value if you want to spend the money. As for the MDD, I have one (2 actually my mom has one as well same specs as mine) and it's quiet (Rev C June 2003 model), and it is in my room. I just sleep it at night. If he is only using GB, GB3 is a "Universal" app as far as I know and it would be very speedy with 2GB RAM on an iMac Dual.

JCT · Jan 28, 2006, 04:52 PM

LOL, hey did my boy pay you guys off so he could get an iMac?

Ah well, guess I'll sit tight, and pick up a Presonus Inspire 1394 or Firebox for sound input into the Quad. And we'll just keep taking turns.

Eventually I'll spring for a Core Duo iMac for him. I really wish they had a headless version -- we have an unused LCD...

Thanks guys,

JT

emark · Jan 28, 2006, 04:58 PM

the MDD ("wind tunnels"), NOT the QuickSilvers were the known for their noise...no that the Quicksilvers are quiet...but you will see it is the MDDs that people went to great lengths to mod for noise, and apple had an exchange/repair program of some sort...if I'm not mistaken. (I still run a dual 800 QuickSilver, btw)

plus, look at the upgrade paths...you will find numerous cpu upgrades for 100 and 133 mhz busses, very little if anything for the 167 Mhz busses introduced w/ MDD.

Lastly, the cpus in the quicksilvers had 2 mb L3 cache, vs. 1 MB in SOME of the MDD partially negating chip speed increments...

all that said, if I were going for a used machine, I'd make sure I had the 133 Mhz bus and a 4x AGP slot, then probably go for a lesser chip (single instead of dual) IF I was going to upgrade the CPU. expect the new upgrades based on Freescales 7448s soon...though do you want to be an early adopter??? I am taking a wait and see approach for now...it will take a dual w/ great performance before I upgrade my dual 800, the existing 7447 chips had the speed, but not the architecture, the new 7448 should finally be worthwhile...let's see.

JCT · Jan 28, 2006, 05:31 PM

emark,

That is a great and *lucid* breakdown -- just the sort of info that I was trying to sort out!

Interestingly, my original thought had been to boost my Sawtooth (that runs like a top, BTW) --with one of the nice Gigadesigns dual CPU upgrades, but alas, it cannot accept them. For awhile I have kept my eye open for a cheap DA or QS -- precisely because of the 133Mhz bus AND 4X AGP slot.
I have found that my Sawtooth (and even my G3 at work) are quite responsive with a SATA card + 7200 RPM drives and 1 GB RAM.

If I had understood the limitations of the Sawtooth, my upgrade path would have been to a dual CPU upgrade.

Argh -- but still, if I do stumble on a great deal for a DA or QS single, I could easily move the gear from the sawtooth -- and then wait for a nice dual CPU upgrade!

Thanks!

JT

Mac Write · Jan 28, 2006, 07:35 PM

Wait for the Mac mini to be upgraded to "Dual Core" and buy that for like $800 decked out with RAM. Then you can use the spare LCD

Weezer · Jan 28, 2006, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Mac Write

Wait for the Mac mini to be upgraded to "Dual Core" and buy that for like $800 decked out with RAM. Then you can use the spare LCD

eh, if youre gonna do that, might as well ebay the LCD and buy an imac

Also, theres no guarantee that the mac minis will get the core duo, they might likely be getting the core solo.

The problem with cpu upgrades, is that its not good bang for your buck with these new imacs out. You'll get a decently fast CPU, but be hampered by slow FSB speeds and slow RAM.

Salty · Jan 28, 2006, 08:23 PM

I'd also go for the Core Duo iMac when you can get it for him it's just plain the best bang for your buck.

JCT · Jan 28, 2006, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

I'd also go for the Core Duo iMac when you can get it for him it's just plain the best bang for your buck.

Very true -- I also qualify for the academic discount, every little bit helps. Think I will hold tight for Rev B, just to be sure.

Part of this is my endless hardware fiddling habit (brought over from my PC days)...

Thanks (and I'm sure my son thanks you as well!)

JT

chris v · Jan 28, 2006, 10:37 PM

Even a dual G4 will lag a bit in Garage Band. You'll get probably 15-16 channels of audio, at best. A G5 processor is orders of magnitude better for GB or Logic, the program from which it was derived. If you really don't need the display of an iMac, you might consider a refurbed dual G5 tower, like a 2.0 or a 2.3. That'll have plenty of muscle, plus a second drive bay, more ram slots, and PCI slots for any audio cards you might want to add later if he gets more serious.

Todd Madson · Jan 29, 2006, 12:17 PM

Yep. Used G5 tower if you can find one. I'm running a 2.5 which might be a bit more
than you want to spend but a dual 1.8 or a dual 2.0 would be a machine that will give
him plenty of power for music and it will last at least three years down the road and by
then you'll know how the core duo machines are panning out as far as glitches and such.

Salty · Jan 30, 2006, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by JCT

Very true -- I also qualify for the academic discount, every little bit helps. Think I will hold tight for Rev B, just to be sure.

Part of this is my endless hardware fiddling habit (brought over from my PC days)...

Thanks (and I'm sure my son thanks you as well!)

JT

It's just often silly to buy used when the new ones offer so much more.

JCT · Jan 30, 2006, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Salty

It's just often silly to buy used when the new ones offer so much more.

Very true these days as the used machines hold their value while the cost of the new Macs has definitely headed downwards -- makes the cost differential very tough to justify.

Breaking this "hardware fiddling" habit has proven difficult, my husband was sure that I would stop putting machines together when I switched to the Mac. Those hopes were dashed when he found his Valentine's Day gift ( a stock Cube) dismembered on the workbench next to the Dremel.

regards,

JT

leehotti · Jan 30, 2006, 02:35 PM

I'd have to say that a dual 1ghz G4 system would handle garageband fine.

Weezer · Jan 30, 2006, 02:55 PM

that's bad advice. My 933 G4 can run the program, and I've made some great stuff with it, but as soon as I start adding a lot of effects and tracks, it CRAWLS, and will often refuse to continue.

Say you buy the dual 1 for $500, and then in a few months your son isn't happy with the performance, and you buy a dual 7448 upgrade for $500-$600, you just spent $1,100 when you could have just gotten a core duo which would blow the G4 away.

Also, the intels are only going to be getting faster with OS and software improvements, and will have a decent resale value should you need to sell it down the road.

leehotti · Jan 30, 2006, 05:38 PM

More like sell teh dual 1ghz processor on ebay for a pretty penny, and geta dual 1.8 ghz upgrade for $400

$900 total investment.

Todd Madson · Feb 1, 2006, 04:44 PM

FYI: I tried a max polyphony test on a iMac CoreDuo at the apple store the other day
and used a 32 key midi keyboard. Each track was a different software instrument from
the textures and pads library (which uses lots of choruses, reverbs and delays). I got
26 tracks happening with 32 notes simultaneously but it was really shaky. Removing
one of the tracks got it manageable. 23 was the best performance/polyphony.

For real world use it's going to do just fine with a mix of software instruments and
real tracks - at least 50 tracks I'm guessing. Might be worth a thought.

This was in GarageBand form iLife06 btw.

JCT · Feb 1, 2006, 06:10 PM

That's pretty impressive, Todd. Interestingly enough, whenever we go to the Apple Store -- my son high-tails it over to one of the Midi keyboard setups, dragging him off is non-trivial.

I've basically decided to hold tight and share the Quad for now. Actually, I just grabbed a stripped DA 733 for ~225 for myself. Much more upgradeable than the Sawtooth, once I move all the stuff over from the Sawtooth (SATA drive setup, 1.5 GB RAM, etc) it will be fine for me when I just have regular stuff to do. I've warned him not to get too comfortable with the Quad though....

Bought the boy a Presonus Inspire 1394, figured he can use it with the Quad for now and then move it to the iMac.

A very helpful thread!

JT

Tardbus · Feb 2, 2006, 10:34 AM

Keep in mind artists like BT have used much less powerful machines. Granted, they weren't using garageband, but you don't need 3ghz to make good music.

JCT · Feb 2, 2006, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by Tardbus

Keep in mind artists like BT have used much less powerful machines. Granted, they weren't using garageband, but you don't need 3ghz to make good music.

Oh, no doubt. And to be perfectly honest, my little guy has been chugging along using Garageband on his iBook with his keyboard for the past several months. Figured it was only fair to let him try out the Quad -- talk about the proverbial kid in a candy store!

JT