[videian28]

Originally posted by ManOfSteal:
About.Damn.Time.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally posted by Abnormal-Solder:
Er... What developers???

The only company that seems to be developing mass software for the Mac is APPLE itself.

Most 3rd Party Apps are High End, like Photoshop and Quarks, and you'll be wasting your time with a 1-botton mouse.

http://www.versiontracker.com/

Thanks I really wanted to reply to a flamebait thread today anyways.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by King Bob On The Cob:
http://www.versiontracker.com/

Thanks I really wanted to reply to a flamebait thread today anyways.

[waffffffle]

Has anyone thought of the possibility that Apple would want to sell this mouse to Windows users as well? If Apple ends up selling the best mouse on the market they could start selling even more PC peripherals (on top of iPods).

[Eriamjh]

A two-button mouse would have been nice... 4 years ago. Now I require two buttons and a scroll wheel.

Wasn't there something on the web about a scroll wheel being implemented using touch iPod technology?

[Goldfinger]

Originally posted by waffffffle:
Has anyone thought of the possibility that Apple would want to sell this mouse to Windows users as well? If Apple ends up selling the best mouse on the market they could start selling even more PC peripherals (on top of iPods).

They'd have to reinvent the mouse.

[vmpaul]

First, I'll believe it when I see it. We've had reports of a 2-button mouse sighting for years. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened. It's not like Steve has never backtracked on anything (hello Shuffle).

Second, the arrival of a multi-button mouse doesn't presage the demise of the Mac GUI. Developers aren't going start hiding features that can only be accessed in bizarre key sequences because of the availability of a 2-button mouse.

For one, I don't know any programmers who want to spend the time or money to develop features that nobody will use. If they did, they wouldn't be in business very long. It's financial Darwinism.

Additionally, there's a tremendous amount of legacy equipment out there. If you're developer and you don't recognize that, you're an idiot anyways.

For the person who says he supports a number of users who don't use the the 2nd-button on their Windows machines - that has nothing to do with usability. It just means they don't use the 2nd button. That is all.

A computer doesn't become a useless hunk of metal just because a user doesn't take advantage of every feature. Now, they may not be working as efficiently as they could by accessing every button on their mouse, but it doesn't mean they can't complete whatever task they set out to accomplish when they sat down.

All Apple has accomplished by stubbornly refusing to offer a BTO option of a multi-button mouse is give up the revenue that's been going to 3rd-party manufacturers.

[Randman]

If done right, Apple could sell quite a few. Mini owners alone might opt for one over an current offering. But until Apple offers a trackball, I'll stick with my wireless Logitech Optical Trackman.

[willed]

Thing is, you can use Macs with two button mice already. The problem is for laptop owners, who don't want to be carrying a peripheral everywhere so are stuck with one button. Now if Apple was giving its laptops two buttons, that would be news.

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Except, of course, that no software developers actually design for a one button mouse. Even Apple designs for a two button mouse by having a contextual menu in everything they develop.

But what you haven't noticed is those functions are also available in the menu bar. The contextual menu is only a shortcut for power users, as it should be. A Mac user can explore any app just by going through the menu bar and looking at the commands. If the functionality were only in contextual menus (like a lot of Windows apps) then the user has to "hunt" for things to click on (that aren't always apparent) to find the functionality. That's why Windows users typically don't know too much about their software - it's not very inviting.

From a usability perspective, having to press the control key while simultaneously clicking your one button is far less usable (requires two hands) than simply clicking a second mouse button (requires one hand).

If you know the functionality is there. Again, from a usability perspective, it's more usable to allow the user to first find the functionality in the single, visible, menu bar at the top of the screen, and let them buy a two button mouse, once they learn and if they prefer to use contextual menus.

Also, if you use a laptop, I prefer having one big button and using control, since my left hand is on the keyboard anyway. I don't want to accidently hit the "right-click" button with my thumb.

More than two buttons can further increase usability; forward and back buttons for surfing as well as buttons to control expose.

You are confusing functionality with usability. Would a 100-button mouse be more usable than a two button mouse? What if developers arbitrarily tied functions to any one of those 100 buttons? Is that more usable?

Granted, an extreme example, but even a four button mouse can be confusing if the user didn't assign the functions himself. Leave the extra buttons to those that consciously choose to use it. It should not be default.

If Apple were to actually lead the way by designing a more usable way to access something of similar use to the contextual menu, then I would be inclined to agree with you, but Apple has not. All they've done is say that control-clicking is more usable than right-clicking.

Apple has done tremendous amounts of UI research that makes good common sense. You based your opinion on the false assumption that everyone can find, and prefers to access, functions only in the contextual menu.

Many times simplicity increases usability. Simplicity should always be the default, with the "power-user" functionality being an option (in this case, a third party mouse). FOr a company that survives by distinguishing itself from rest of the market based on ease of use and productivity, I would think that simplicity should be the way to go.

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by willed:
Thing is, you can use Macs with two button mice already. The problem is for laptop owners, who don't want to be carrying a peripheral everywhere so are stuck with one button. Now if Apple was giving its laptops two buttons, that would be news.

No! I have no problem with a mouse but NOT two buttons on a freaking laptop! Every time I use PC laptops I hate it because the right button is right where I normally click with my thumb. Having two buttons would be a huge reason for me to not upgrade. Control click works perfectly fine on a laptop.

[Randman]

Sidetrack already gives us right-click functionality for trackpads. I'd hate a two button trackpad. Especially with two-finger scrolling.

[misnomer]

Originally posted by hayesk:
But what you haven't noticed is those functions are also available in the menu bar. The contextual menu is only a shortcut for power users, as it should be. A Mac user can explore any app just by going through the menu bar and looking at the commands. If the functionality were only in contextual menus (like a lot of Windows apps)

Are there some good examples of this? Aren't Windows apps usually the same? The contextual menus displaying menubar items that make sense in the current context? So the same functions are also accessible through the Menu Bar and often also through keyboard shortcuts and the strip of buttons under the Menu Bar.

The contextual menus don't even require a two button mouse to access. You can use the "Shortcut Key" found on almost any modern keyboard to the right of the spacebar, or on an older keyboard by pressing Shift+F10.

Personally, I think the "shipping a default two button mouse will be the downfall of the HIG" crowd, is really overstating the issue.

[techweenie1]

God it took this long for Jobs to succumb to the will of his users...he seems like such an arrogant p___k, what is up with that?

[Randman]

He hasn't done too bad. I'm sure whenever he's in doubt, he just checks his bank account balance.

[techweenie1]

Originally posted by Randman:
He hasn't done too bad. I'm sure whenever he's in doubt, he just checks his bank account balance.

Heh I was just thinking that. Got to admit though, the company seems to be doing the best its done in years, if not ever.

[osxisfun]

Originally posted by techweenie1:
God it took this long for Jobs to succumb to the will of his users...he seems like such an arrogant p___k, what is up with that?

nothing. he's just put ease of use first.

pros can buy a multibutton mouse just like i and hundreds of thousands of others have..

funny how you blame all this on his arrogance.

But i suppose you have proof of this. Not.

[mitchell_pgh]

It looks like the Apple insider article changed... apparently Apple is going to be offering a 1/2 button mouse... not a 2 button mouse...

[AppleOptionFour]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
http://ddll.sdf1.net/images/bu_apple04.jpg

Steve behind a Dell display

When did this happen? I mean it was bound to at some point but what was the context?

[E's Lil Theorem]

Originally posted by AppleOptionFour:
When did this happen? I mean it was bound to at some point but what was the context?

IIRC, PC iTunes demo.

[olePigeon]

The people I've run into who use PCs and a two button mouse, ironically don't use their left click. They right click EVERYTHING and select it from the menu. Annoys the hell out of me.

Originally posted by misnomer:
Are there some good examples of this? Aren't Windows apps usually the same? The contextual menus displaying menubar items that make sense in the current context? So the same functions are also accessible through the Menu Bar and often also through keyboard shortcuts and the strip of buttons under the Menu Bar.

I run into it all the time, but I'll give one (or several depending on how you look at it). In the default windows shell (Explorer), pretty much everything has to be done with right click - functionality is nowhere else. "Explore" a folder instead of opening it, Empty the recycle bin, tile the windows, unmount a PC card or external hard disk, etc., etc.

The contextual menus don't even require a two button mouse to access. You can use the "Shortcut Key" found on almost any modern keyboard to the right of the spacebar, or on an older keyboard by pressing Shift+F10.

Thanks - I had no idea about Shift-F10. I'll bet if I polled all of the engineers and computer science folks I work with, most of them wouldn't know that either.

Personally, I think the "shipping a default two button mouse will be the downfall of the HIG" crowd, is really overstating the issue.

But you have no reason to think that other than you only want to believe it. Every system that has shipped with multi-button mice have functions that only exist in those contextual menus. It has been shown time and time again, that developers will be lazy and ruin it. Isn't that enough to show you why it isn't a good idea? What would it take to convince you?

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
It looks like the Apple insider article changed... apparently Apple is going to be offering a 1/2 button mouse... not a 2 button mouse...

At 2x the price, right?

[lavar78]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
I think once you start using a two button mouse you'll never go back to one button. But that's a personal decision and for the novice a single button mouse is easier to understand and learn.

I have a two-button mouse, but I actually prefer one button. The Apple Pro Mouse is much better ergonomically. I'm going to pick one up at some point. At any rate, using Quicksilver means I don't have to do very much mouse work at all.

I remember a Windows app (the name escapes me) where you could only refresh with a contextual-menu command.

[techweenie1]

Originally posted by osxisfun:
nothing. he's just put ease of use first.

pros can buy a multibutton mouse just like i and hundreds of thousands of others have..

funny how you blame all this on his arrogance.

But i suppose you have proof of this. Not.

No I said it seems to me...last time I checked I never trying to prove anything, it was more of a rant/complaint + asking why he did it, not proving why he did it.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally posted by funkboy:
Whoa Nick Burns. You have just said not a single of your users know what the second mouse button does. I don't mean to sound silly, but I think *some* of them know what it's for... SOMEone, certainly. Maybe not many, but some.

Haha, Nick Burns Maybe a better way to word it is that I have not yet met anyone at my company, with the exception of the IT staff, that has any proficiency using the right mouse button. I just switched to Macs a couple years ago and would hate to see some of the same user difficulties that plague Windows start making an appearance here.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
No! I have no problem with a mouse but NOT two buttons on a freaking laptop! Every time I use PC laptops I hate it because the right button is right where I normally click with my thumb. Having two buttons would be a huge reason for me to not upgrade. Control click works perfectly fine on a laptop.

Agreed. Control clicking on a laptop is not as much of a problem. However, I would like to have a control key on the right side of the keyboard as well as the left so that it could be a one handed operation.

[misnomer]

Originally posted by hayesk:
I run into it all the time, but I'll give one (or several depending on how you look at it). In the default windows shell (Explorer), pretty much everything has to be done with right click - functionality is nowhere else. "Explore" a folder instead of opening it,

File -> Explore

Empty the recycle bin,

File -> Recycle Bin -> Empty Recycle Bin

unmount a PC card or external hard disk

I don't have a portable drive on me at the moment, but as I recall, File -> Unmount or left-click its icon in the system tray and you can unmount it through there

tile the windows,

Now that's a good one! I can't think of any way of tiling windows, without using the "Shortcut Key", Shift-F10 or right-clicking. You could make a single line windows script to trigger a tile, then create a shortcut to it and assign that shortcut a keyboard shortcut, but that's a pretty ridiculous solution for MS's oversight.

[Athens]

Originally posted by lavar78:
I guess you're ignoring the millions of their customers who want a one-button mouse.

My take: a two-button mouse is a nice option, but I don't think it should be standard on any Mac. Well, I guess that would be OK for PowerMacs if "downgrading" to a one-button mouse is an option.

Should be standard as a 2 button with a 1 button as a option. There are as many people that want a 2 button mouse that there is for a a one button. And most prob dont care either way. Its about time that apple catches up on this issue.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by Athens:
Should be standard as a 2 button with a 1 button as a option. There are as many people that want a 2 button mouse that there is for a a one button. And most prob dont care either way. Its about time that apple catches up on this issue.

There's no "catching up" to do. The people who want a 2-button mouse know they want one. Since they are the so-called power users, the onus should be on them to request one.

[Randman]

A so-called power user needs more than 2 buttons. They're the types already using trackballs and tablets and third-party mouses.

[willed]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
No! I have no problem with a mouse but NOT two buttons on a freaking laptop! Every time I use PC laptops I hate it because the right button is right where I normally click with my thumb. Having two buttons would be a huge reason for me to not upgrade. Control click works perfectly fine on a laptop.

Oh right. I'll call Apple, tell them Superchicken can't be bothered to move his thumb so call off the two button laptops

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally posted by willed:
Oh right. I'll call Apple, tell them Superchicken can't be bothered to move his thumb so call off the two button laptops

That's the spirit!

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by willed:
Oh right. I'll call Apple, tell them Superchicken can't be bothered to move his thumb so call off the two button laptops

Good. I'll be sure to thank them for not bowing to the fact that willed is to freaking lazy to use the freaking control key.

[E's Lil Theorem]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
Good. I'll be sure to thank them for not bowing to the fact that willed is to freaking lazy to use the freaking control key.

Lazy?

In that case, next time you need to write a paper for school don't be so lazy and write it out by hand instead of using your iBook.