[bstone]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
You're wrong.

Subsequent judges did not rehear the case. Most of their judgements were on whether or not procedure and the rule of law was followed correctly in the determining cases, or whether the parents' arguments for appeal were strong enough to warrant a rehearing.

These judges were not asked to rule on her PVS status (as Greer did), and therefore have not all "decided the same way" or all come "to the same conclusion".

You could, however, state that most of the judges did not find the parents' arguments strong enough to warrant a rehearing of the case. But that's not the same as saying all the judges agreed with Greer.

And you think that not one of them has at all inquired of facts from the case, even casually (aka out of court, not on official time)? Perchance none of the 20 judges even spoke to a fellow judge? That there might not be a single one following some similar message board debate to this?

If you think that then you're naive.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Because that's exactly what it would be

Only to those who want her dead so desperately.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by bstone:
And you think that not one of them has at all inquired of facts from the case, even casually (aka out of court, not on official time)? Perchance none of the 20 judges even spoke to a fellow judge? That there might not be a single one following some similar message board debate to this?

If you think that then you're naive.

I think that because that's what their duties and requirements are as mandated by law.

Naive is thinking that these judges are combing message boards like these for guidance on how to rule on appeals.

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
There has never been an MRI performed on Terry, because her husband has repeatedly refused it over all these years

... with an MRI scan on July 24 1990...

[waxcrash]

Cody Dawg -

lurkalot's post reminded me of an article I read in the Chicago Tribune last weekend about a neurologist at Northwestern Feinberg School of Medicine that has done studies on patients diagnosed with Persistent Vegetative State (PVS). He gave each patient an MRI. He then had the family members come in and interact/talk about past events while he gave each patient another MRI. He then compared the two MRIs for each patient to see if any brain activity occurred while the family members talked to their love one. Out of all of the patients, there was no difference in their MRIs.

If they did this with Terri, and they showed that no change in brain activity occurred, would you let her die?

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
You're wrong.

Subsequent judges did not rehear the case. Most of their judgements were on whether or not procedure and the rule of law was followed correctly in the determining cases, or whether the parents' arguments for appeal were strong enough to warrant a rehearing.

These judges were not asked to rule on her PVS status (as Greer did), and therefore have not all "decided the same way" or all come "to the same conclusion".

You could, however, state that most of the judges did not find the parents' arguments strong enough to warrant a rehearing of the case. But that's not the same as saying all the judges agreed with Greer.

I never said that all judges agreed with Greer. I said they all came to the conclusion that Michael Schiavo has the right to have the feeding tube removed from his wife (or that the parents did not have sufficient arguments for a rehearing).

As most people are probably not aware anymore: despite all of the issues and questions raised by that conflict, my impression is that the law seems to be clear enough to conclude: Michael Schiavo is the custodian of his wife and does have the right to ask for the removal of the feeding tube, even against the will of her parents.

[Too Artificial]

Originally posted by bstone:
2) Starvation has proved to be a relatively painfree way to die. Look back on this thread for links to medical journals proving such.

Then we shouldn't really be worried about the homeless hungry kids you posted about ahead of this eh?

[Cody Dawg]

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I never said that all judges agreed with Greer. I said they all came to the conclusion that Michael Schiavo has the right to have the feeding tube removed from his wife (or that the parents did not have sufficient arguments for a rehearing).

My misunderstanding. Those still aren't the same conclusions, but I don't disagree with this revised starement. Thanks for the clarification.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
... with an MRI scan on July 24 1990...

Is there a chance you can post your source for this?

Everything I've read states that she didn't have an MRI, so it's news to me.

EDIT: I found a source here... there are some very interesting notes.

[awaspaas]

As far as I know, there has been no MRI because it would require two major surgeries: surgical removal and subsequent replacement of implanted medical life support devices. Doctors have testified that the safer CT scan provides ample information anyway.

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by awaspaas:]As far as I know, there has been no MRI because it would require two major surgeries: surgical removal and subsequent replacement of implanted medical life support devices. Doctors have testified that the safer CT scan provides ample information anyway.

Since the deep brain stimulator surgery didn't take place until December 12 1990 that did not interfere with the taking of an MRI on July 24, 1990.

I do agree that the other images offer ample info as well.

[awaspaas]

If it still works, there's a fun MRI safety video here: http://mind.ucdavis.edu/content/MRISafety.asx

That's why she can't get one now. No more talking about MRI.

[Cody Dawg]

The fact that Michael Schiavo won't let her own parents and siblings see Terri today is sickening and disgusting.

Meanwhile, read the following piece about Terri written by an attorney friend of the Schindlers, Terri's mother and father:

This past Christmas Eve day, 2004, I went to visit Terri Schiavo with her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, her sister, her niece, and Attorney David Gibbs III. The visit took place at the Woodside Hospice for about 45 minutes just before noon.

When I knew I was going to visit Terri with her parents, I had no idea what to expect. I was prepared for the possibility that the Schindlers love their daughter and sister so much that they might imagine behaviors by Terri that aren't actually evident to others. The media and Mr. Schiavo clearly give the impression that Terri is in a coma or comatose state and engages only in non-purposeful and reflexive movements and responses. I am a mother and a grandmother, as well as one of the Schindlers� attorneys, and I could understand how parents might imagine behavior and purposeful activity that is not really there. I was prepared to be as objective as I could be during this visit and not to be disappointed at anything I saw or experienced.

I was truly surprised at what I saw from the moment we entered the little room where Terri is confined. The room is a little wider than the width of two single beds and about as long as the average bedroom, with plenty of room for us to stand at the foot of her bed. Terri is on the first floor and there is a lovely view to the outside grounds of the facility. The room is entered by a short hallway, however, and there is no way for Terri to see out into the hallway or for anyone in the hallway to observe Terri.

From the moment we entered the room, my impression was that Terri was very purposeful and interactive and she seemed very curious about the presence of obvious strangers in her room. Terri was not in bed, but was in her chair, which has a lounge chair appearance and elevates her head at about a 30-degree angle. She was dressed and washed, her hair combed, and she was covered with a holiday blanket. There were no tubes of any kind attached to her body. She was completely free of any restraints that would have indicated any type of artificial life support. Not even her feeding tube was attached and functioning when we entered, as she is not fed 24 hours a day.

The thing that surprised me the most about Terri as I took my turn to greet her by the side of her chair was how beautiful she is. I would have expected to see someone with a sallow and gray complexion and a sick looking countenance. Instead, I saw a very pretty woman with a peaches and cream complexion and a lovely smile, which she even politely extended to me as I introduced myself to her. I was amazed that someone who had not been outside for so many years and who received such minimal health care could look so beautiful. She appeared to have an inner light radiating from her face. I was truly taken aback by her beauty, particularly under the adverse circumstances in which she has found herself for so many years.

Terri�s parents, sister, and niece went immediately to greet Terri when we entered the room and stood in turn directly beside her head, stroking her face, kissing her and talking quietly with her. When she heard their voices, and particularly her mother's voice, Terri instantly turned her head towards them and smiled. Terri established eye contact with her family, particularly with her mother, who spent the most time with her during our visit. It was obvious that she recognized the voices in the room with the exception of one. Although her mother was talking to her at the time, she obviously had heard a new voice and exhibited a curious demeanor. Attorney Gibbs was having a conversation near the door with Terri�s sister. His voice is very deep and resonant and Terri obviously picked it up. Her eyes widened as if to say, �What�s that new sound I hear?� She scanned the room with her eyes, even turning her head in his direction, until she found Attorney Gibbs and the location of the new voice and her eyes rested momentarily in his direction. She then returned to interacting with her mother.

When her mother was close to her, Terri�s whole face lit up. She smiled. She looked directly at her mother and she made all sorts of happy sounds. When her mother talked to her, Terri was quiet and obviously listening. When she stopped, Terri started vocalizing. The vocalizations seemed to be a pattern, not merely random or reflexive at all. There is definitely a pattern of Terri having a conversation with her mother as best she can manage. Initially, she used the vocalization of �uh�uh� but without seeming to mean it as a way of saying �no�, just as a repeated speech pattern. She then began to make purposeful grunts in response to her mother�s conversation. She made the same sorts of sound with her father and sister, but not to the same extent or as delightedly as with her mother. She made no verbal response to her niece or to Attorney Gibbs and myself, but she did appear to pay attention to our words to her.

The whole experience was rather moving. Terri definitely has a personality. Her whole demeanor definitely changes when her mother speaks with her. She lights up and appears to be delighted at the interaction. She has an entirely different reaction to her father who jokes with her and has several standing jokes that he uses when he enters and exits her presence. She appears to merely �tolerate� her father, as a child does when she says �stop� but really means, �this is fun.� When her father greets her, he always does the same thing. He says, �here comes the hug� and hugs her. He then says, �you know what�s coming next---the kiss.� Her father has a scratchy mustache and both times when he went through this little joke routine with her, she laughed in a way she did not do with anyone else. When her father is ready to plant the kiss on her cheek, she immediately makes a face her family calls the �lemon face.� She puckers her lips, screws up her whole face, and turns away from him, as if making ready for the scratchy assault on her cheek that she knows is coming. She did the exact same thing both times that her father initiated this little routine joke between the two of them.

The interactions with her family and our appearance in her room appeared to require some effort and exertion from Terri. From time to time, she would close her eyes as if to rest. This happened primarily when no one was paying particular attention to her, but we were talking among ourselves. After a few minutes or when one of the visitors approached her and started to talk directly to her again, Terri would open her eyes and begin her grunting sounds again in response to their conversations. Although I approached her, leaned close and stroked her arms and spoke to her, she did not verbally respond to me.

Terri�s hands are curled up around little soft cylinders that help her not to injure herself. I understand that these contractures are likely very painful, although there was a time when Terri was receiving simple motion therapy when her hands and arms relaxed and were no longer as constricted. When the therapy was discontinued by order of her guardian and the court, the contractures returned. These contractures would apparently be avoidable if Terri were given the simple range of motion therapy she previously received. It is very sad to observe firsthand these conditions that make her life more difficult, but that would be correctable with little effort.

When we were preparing to leave, the interactions with Terri changed. First, she went through the joke routine with her father and the �lemon face.� When her niece said goodbye to her, Terri did not react. Nor did she react to me or to Attorney Gibbs when we said our goodbyes to her. When her sister went to her to say goodbye, Terri�s verbalizations changed dramatically. Instead of the happy grunting and �uh uh� sounds she had been making throughout the visit, her verbalizations at these goodbyes changed to a very low and different sound that appeared to come from deep in her throat and was almost like a growl. She first made the sound when her sister said goodbye and then, amazingly to me, she made exactly the same sound when her mother said goodbye to her. It seemed Terri was visibly upset that they were leaving. She almost appeared to be trying to cling to them, although this impression came only from her changed facial expression and sounds, since her hands cannot move. It appeared like she did not want to be alone and knew they were leaving. It was definitely apparent in the short time I was there that her emotions changed�it was apparent when she was happy and enjoying herself, when she was amused, when she was resting from her exertion to communicate, and when she was sad at her guests leaving. It was readily apparent and surprising that her mood changed so often in a short 45-minute visit.

I was pleasantly surprised to observe Terri�s purposeful and varied behaviors with the various members of her family and with Attorney Gibbs and myself. I never imagined Terri would be so active, curious, and purposeful. She watched people intently, obviously was attempting to communicate with each one in various ways and with various facial expressions and sounds. She was definitely not in a coma, not even close. This visit certainly shed more light for me on why the Schindlers are fighting so hard to protect her, to get her medical care and rehabilitative assistance, and to spend all they have to protect her life.

I realize that Terri has good days and bad days. There are obviously days when she does not interact with her family, as they had previously told us. There are also apparently days when Terri is even more interactive and responsive to them than she was on the day I visited. Since this visit I am more convinced than ever that the Schindlers are not just parents who refuse to let go of their daughter. There really is a lot going on with their daughter and potentially, it seemed obvious to me, Terri could improve even more with appropriate care and 24 hour a day love that can only come from a dedicated family. As I watched her, my foremost thought was that on the next day, Christmas, Terri should not have been confined to her small room in a hospice center, nice as that room was, but that she should have been gathered around the Christmas dinner table enjoying the holiday with her family.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Too Artificial:
Then we shouldn't really be worried about the homeless hungry kids you posted about ahead of this eh?

Those kids you mention are brainful.

Schiavo has not enough of it left to live, or rather, to be a person. The only personality she has left is in the eye of those who look at her and cannot grieve her mental death.

Having a person living in a vegetative state is without known and satisfactory purpose and responds only to people's needs for rethorics and beliefs.

That only a percentage of her brain react would not be enough to confirm mental life.

Of course, there are special cases to consider; people with very atrophied brains. But those have a brain, though dysfunctional, which enables an interaction with the environment and also manifest what could be interpreted as volition.

Schiavo is past the limit of the interpretation of consciousness. With animals, you can reflect at lenght whether their reactions are coming from unknown stimuli or from an inner core of consciousness. In her case, the hardware is so damaged that it makes no sense to even start interpreting.

[Cody Dawg]

Give us a break. Read the post above yours and tell me that Terri is not conscious.

No one knows, with absolutely certainty, what Terri's life experience is. The fact is that it could be pleasant, surrounded by all of the people who love and care for her, days of bright sunshine, hugs, and love.

Instead, one man who goes home to his "other" wife and two kids is the one dictating her death sentence - while not allowing her parents to be with her.

This is just criminal.

[saddino]

From Dr. Cranford's Terri Schiavo Report:

Terri was in a coma for approximately one month, and then evolved into a vegetative state. Four board-certified neurologists in Florida consulting on her care (James H. Barnhill, Garcia J. Desousa, Thomas H. Harrison, and Jeffrey M. Karp) had repeatedly made a diagnosis of PVS over the years. The initial CT scan on the day of admission, February 25, 1990, was normal but further CT scans documented a progression of widespread cerebral hemisphere atrophy, eventually resulting in CT scans of 1996 and 2002 showing extreme atrophy (CT scans-1996, 2002: �diffuse encephalomalacia and infarction consistent with anoxia, hydrocephalus ex vacuo, neural stimulator present); prior to these most recent two CT scans, CT scans had been performed on February 25, 1990, February 27, 1990, and March 30, 1990, with an MRI scan on July 24, 1990. The two most recent EEG�s have demonstrated no electrical activity-on July 8, 2002: �no evidence of cerebral activity;� and October 4, 2002-�does not have any definite brain activity. However, most of the tracing is obscured by artifact from muscle and eye movement.� The clinical exams over the years were entirely consistent with diagnosis of permanent vegetative state secondary to hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy. From the initial hospitalization in February, 1990, until the present time, there have been no significant changes in Terri�s neurological findings, and nothing in the medical records to suggest any disagreement whatsoever among Terri�s attending and consulting physicians about the underlying diagnosis and prognosis for recovery. A deep brain stimulator was placed in Terri�s brain on December 12, 1990 at request of the husband who flew with his wife to San Francisco for the procedure. This highly experimental form of medical treatment did not result in any clinical improvement in Terri�s condition. (14)

[Cody Dawg]

If she is so "brain dead" as people insist, explain how she VOLUNTARILY turns her head and interacts with people verbally and physically?

Please, we'd ALL like to know.

[Too Artificial]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Instead, one man who goes home to his "other" wife and two kids is the one dictating her death sentence - while not allowing her parents to be with her.

This is just criminal.

This is where I'm having a really hard time with this whole thing. I can't figure out why the husband is so intent on seeing her dead. It's obvious he's moved on with his current partner and children, so why can't he grant the parents their wishes and walk away? For that matter, why won't he let them see her? He's a piece of human garbage and I don't buy for a minute that it's all because this is what Terri wanted.

[Cody Dawg]

L.A. Times
Orthodox Jews voiced even stronger views. Withholding food and drink was "cruel and unusual punishment," said Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein, chairman of Jewish law and ethics at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles.

Similar divisions are evident among Roman Catholics. The Vatican and U.S. bishops have said that giving food and drink, even artificially, was morally required in the case of Schiavo, who is Catholic.

Nice that the two religions agree.

[Cody Dawg]

Too Artificial
This is where I'm having a really hard time with this whole thing. I can't figure out why the husband is so intent on seeing her dead. It's obvious he's moved on with his current partner and children, so why can't he grant the parents their wishes and walk away? For that matter, why won't he let them see her? He's a piece of human garbage and I don't buy for a minute that it's all because this is what Terri wanted.

<applause>

Yes, he's a pig.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Instead, one man who goes home to his "other" wife and two kids is the one dictating her death sentence - while not allowing her parents to be with her.

This is just criminal.

That is your issue. If you can't handle people moving on in life, you may have trouble moving on yourself. Let's make sure your issues are not involved in this.

If you feel that her husband should go in prison for falling in love with another woman, I am interested to see what the courts have to say about that.

But so far, none of it have transpired; therefore, it is more likely to be your issue.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
If she is so "brain dead" as people insist, explain how she VOLUNTARILY turns her head and interacts with people verbally and physically?

Please, we'd ALL like to know.

And when did she do that?

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Too Artificial:
This is where I'm having a really hard time with this whole thing. I can't figure out why the husband is so intent on seeing her dead. It's obvious he's moved on with his current partner and children, so why can't he grant the parents their wishes and walk away? For that matter, why won't he let them see her? He's a piece of human garbage and I don't buy for a minute that it's all because this is what Terri wanted.

And what if his wife demanded of him to not let her stay in a vegetative state?

Would you grant the wishes of the parents or of the most involved person in all this?

[Cody Dawg]

Do you read ANY of the other posts here?



Read. Then you'll know the answer.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Nice that the two religions agree.

The religions have nothing to do with what this person is going through. It has never been a problem in the past, for the simple reason that medecine, in advancing its techniques, has allowed early born to survive with heavy handicaps, as well as elderly with strong and heavy handicap.

The idea is not to eliminate everyone with a handicap; it's about what the religions can really say about such without being interpreted. Unfortunately, I doubt that was a topic at the time of Jesus and consorts.

[Mithras]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
If she is so "brain dead" as people insist, explain how she VOLUNTARILY turns her head and interacts with people verbally and physically?
Please, we'd ALL like to know.

Perhaps another opportunity to quote from the guardian at litem appointed by Gov. Jeb Bush:

In the end, after long hours at Schiavo's bedside and after poring over 30,000 pages of legal documents, Wolfson concluded that Schiavo was indeed in a permanent vegetative state.

It wasn't the conclusion he'd hoped to make.

"You want to weigh in on life as opposed to death," Wolfson said. "You want some way to elicit a response."
...
But Schiavo never made eye contact. When Wolfson visited her when her parents were there, she never made eye contact with them either, he said. And for all of Wolfson's pleadings and coaxing, he never got what he most wanted: a sign.
...
Wolfson was dismayed to learn Friday that Barbara Weller, an attorney for the Schindlers, claimed that Schiavo tried to speak. "Terri does not speak," he said. "To claim otherwise reduces her to a fiction."

Funny, how the parents and their close allies are the only ones to claim Terri is not in PVS, while every single one of a good dozen INDEPENDENT assessors have concluded she is in PVS.

[Too Artificial]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
And what if his wife demanded of him to not let her stay in a vegetative state?

Would you grant the wishes of the parents or of the most involved person in all this?

And what if she didn't?

[bstone]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Nice that the two religions agree.

Rubbish.

Orthodox Judaism does not maintain one unified voice on this subject.

I am an ordained Orthodox rabbi and I state that a person's right to choose must be upheld.

[yakkiebah]

Originally posted by Too Artificial:
And what if she didn't?

Then the tube was still in place.. duh.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Do you read ANY of the other posts here?



Read. Then you'll know the answer.

Idem.

Obviously, the debate stops at specific ideas:

1) what is the limit of human intervention in the life of other humans?
2) when does consciousness stops?
3) do souls exist? If so, as humans, should we care or leave that to a potential deity to act?
4) who can you trust in regards of transmission of a verbal will?
5) can we trust specialist of the medical domain? I.e, do we have the right to agree with them when it suits us and disagree with them when it does not?

In the end there is a human being with a brain that is not working anymore lying on a bed. Everything else is a matter of opinion, and of values.

[saddino]

Originally posted by Too Artificial:
And what if she didn't?

Then the parties would have to resolve this in court. And the courts would have to decide how the law applies to this dilemma. And everyone would have to abide by the law, because that's the type of country we live in. Of course, the law allows challenges, and these would be made. But finally, there would be a decision.

And then you, Cody and all the other people who "hate" Michael Schiavo would whine and complain about it.

[waxcrash]

Originally posted by Too Artificial:
And what if she didn't?

1. Terri didn't leave a living will.

2. Under Florida law, power of attorney goes to her husband.

3. He is her legal guardian and gets to decide.

Case closed.

[bstone]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
1. Terri didn't leave a living will.

2. Under Florida law, power of attorney goes to her husband.

3. He is her legal guardian and gets to decide.

Case closed.

She married him, afterall.

[Link]

I wonder if Michael Shiavo is going to make her death a PPV event, after all people LOVE to see **** happen to people.

Maybe Murdoch could make money with a channel called the death channel -- guarantee one death a day.

The ultimate reality show -- get husbands to get their wife incapacitated and have them die slowly and miserably by denying them healthcare because "THat's their wish!!"

Yeah why does stuff like this only happen after big malpractice lawsuits?

I think the jackass shoulda lost his rights the moment he went and ****ed his new girlfriend.

[TheJoshu]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
The fact that Michael Schiavo won't let her own parents and siblings see Terri today is sickening and disgusting.

Meanwhile, read the following piece about Terri written by an attorney friend of the Schindlers, Terri's mother and father:

Not an attorney friend... an attorney who represents the family.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Only to those who want her dead so desperately.

Apparently those who "want her dead so desperately" are not the only ones who think that Jeb Bush is attempting to kidnap Terri Schiavo ...

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Michael Schindler's attorney is accusing Jeb Bush of attempting to "kidnap Terri Schaivo."

[bstone]

Front page of www.yahoo.com


Death will be painless, all experts agree

By Kathleen Fackelmann, USA TODAY

Terri Schiavo has had no food or water since Friday, which has led her parents and their supporters to complain that she could be experiencing a painful death. But neurologists on Wednesday said that based on court findings of her condition, her body gradually will shut down in a painless process that will lead to death.

The Florida woman suffered serious brain damage after her heart stopped in 1990, and she has been the focus of a protracted legal battle that reached a zenith on Friday, when her feeding tube was removed by court order.

In a process that could take days, weeks or longer, the lack of food and water will cause chemical imbalances that eventually will shut down major organs such as the kidneys, and that ultimately will trigger heart abnormalities or other fatal problems, says Roger Albin, a neurologist at the University of Michigan.

Florida courts have ruled that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, a condition caused by extensive damage to the cortex and other parts of the brain that are responsible for consciousness, higher thinking, memory or even sensations such as pain, hunger and thirst.

"She's not experiencing hunger - she's not experiencing anything," Albin says.

Patients in such a state don't get better because the body is unable to repair such a massive injury to the brain, says James Bernat, a neurologist at the Dartmouth Medical School in Hanover, N.H.

"If you're in a state like this for three months or more, you're chance of recovery is zero," Albin says.

That point is disputed by Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who are battling Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, to get Terri's feeding tube reinserted.

The condition is confusing because patients in a persistent vegetative state still have the use of a primitive part of the brain, the stem. The brain stem allows them to go through sleep-wake cycles, keeps them breathing and produces facial expressions that can make it look as though they are aware of their surroundings, Albin says.

But those movements are merely reflexes, says Bruce Sigsbee, a neurologist in Rockport, Maine.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Is there a chance you can post your source for this?

Everything I've read states that she didn't have an MRI, so it's news to me.

EDIT: I found a source here... there are some very interesting notes.

So, it's fairly will concluded that she has not had an MRI, and yet, here we have a site in favour of keeping her body alive which appears to claim that she did have an MRI along with a description of the findings.

What does this tell us? Either she did have an MRI or this site is making up information.

[bstone]

Dr. Ron Cranford, a neurologist at the University of Minnesota, examined Terri Schiavo and assessed her brain function in 2001, as part of a court-ordered assessment. Dr. Cranford concluded that most of Schiavo's cerebral cortex has been completely destroyed, replaced by cerebrospinal fluid. He was quoted in Florida Today as saying "[Schiavo] has no electrical activity in her cerebral cortex on an EEG (electroencephalogram), and a CT (computerized tomography) scan showed massive atrophy in that region." [19] (http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html) [20] (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc...503180350/1006) Michael contends that about 70 to 90 percent of Terri's upper brain has been destroyed, and in addition there is damage to the lower brain, which controls functions such as breathing and swallowing. Three Florida neurologists viewed 12 of Schiavo's CT scans on March 22. After viewing the scans, Dr. Leon Prockop (a professor and former chairman of neurology at the University of South Florida's College of Medicine) was quoted by the Sun-Sentinel as saying that Schiavo's is the "most severe brain damage as I've ever seen." Dr. Walter Bradley, the chairman of neurology at the University of Miami's Miller School of Medicine, said that he "[d]oubts there's any activity going on in the higher levels of her brain." [21]

linky

[Too Artificial]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
1. Terri didn't leave a living will.

2. Under Florida law, power of attorney goes to her husband.

3. He is her legal guardian and gets to decide.

Case closed.

wax and bstone, i'm not really questioning the legalities of this. If the case has run its course legally, I have to accept it (doesn't mean I agree with it, acceptance and agreement are two different things). But, just because that's the "law" doesn't make it right. The "law" also allowed another piece of human garbage to kill an innocent 9 year old girl recently. We can thank the liberal courts and laws for that one, but that's an entirely different discussion.

I stand behind the comments I made about the husband.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Only based on things he himself has said. As for the rest, this is what the law does. That's how the legal definition works.

And the legal system sees no conflict. Yet you do, based on....?

No, only their alleged perfection. Things like this get through state and federal courts all the time; if they didn't, there would be no need for an appeals process. I believe that such a thing has happened here.

No, but apparently it's really easy to assume its perfection.

You have a bad habit of projecting, you know? I never said he was perfect. I never said the judicial system is perfect. It is the system though, and I would think this case has tested it's abilities as no other.

Nobody's perfect. But isn't he accorded any slack for the position he's in? Do you expect everyone to act like a saint (however you judge that) under such stress? I find it appalling for people to make blanket negative characterizations on this guy based on superficial, unconfirmed information. I would be more cautious, but that's me. My first instinct is empathy, for everyone involved in this case, before hurling spears.

All of whom are compromised. There are others who assert the opposite, and they are also compromised. My point is not simply to brand the husband as unqualified to make this decision, but everyone involved in this case as unqualified, because for one reason or another every last one of them is. That is the problem; there is no one left.

That's a convenient position to take, isn't it?. Nobody is qualified to make a decision. Not her husband or the doctors who've examined her, or the judges who've reviewed the case (20 times now), or her parents, or the Religious Right, or the Florida Governor, or the President of the United States, or the Congress, or the people standing outside her building, etc., etc.....

And you're qualified to dismiss all those who've spent years on this, how?

You certainly paint him as such, denying any possibility of imperfection.

I've said no such thing. There's no point having this discussion if you insist on speaking for me. If you don't understand my position than ask for clarification.

Regardless of whether or not he's respecting his wife's wishes, he has been a complete jerk throughout the whole process, and that really rubs me the wrong way.

Which 'being a complete jerk' part? The years-spent-by-her-side-caring-for-his-wife part? Or the refusing-to-divorce-her-so that-he-could-fulfill-her-wishes part?

If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want the law to trust me either. Believe me, I've given that matter a lot of thought. It's unlikely that I'll ever be in exactly this same situation, but this is why I keep pestering my wife to get a living will drawn up for herself, just in case that were to occur.

Good for you. It's probably the only thing we might agree on. If there's any good to come of this, it's the fact that many will now prepare themselves and their families in case they find themselves in a similar situation. I know I've had the paperwork for a living will sitting on the shelf behind me for months. I'm thinking I'll wait a couple of weeks, for the rush to lawyers subsides, and then get it done.

Not directly, no. It's not. He's just one of many people in this case, but it is his testimony on which most of his supporters focus.

Yeah, because he's her husband and therefore her legal guardian. Do you not agree with the law?

Wishes which cannot be accurately determined.

According to the courts it has...numerous times.

I am only ideologically against pulling life-support from PVS patients who haven't expressed a wish for the plug to be pulled, or patients whose wishes are uncertain. If they've expressed a wish, and that wish can be verified, then so be it. My entire problem with this case is that no one on either side is trustworthy enough to verify her wishes one way or the other.

As for euthanasia in general, I would only support it under extremely strict safeguards to ensure that it could only happen under the person's direct wishes. That is not a decision that I would even allow someone with power of attorney to make for someone else. The risks of abuse are simply too great.

If only the world was that tidy. Unfortunately it isn't. So, you have to come to terms with the situation in the best way possible.

Still, you haven't explained why these specific independent courts that have examined this situation, for over 10 years now, are not 'trustworthy enough' to judge this case.

[goMac]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
If she is so "brain dead" as people insist, explain how she VOLUNTARILY turns her head and interacts with people verbally and physically?

Please, we'd ALL like to know.

If all the official doctors reports are claiming her to not be able to interact with people... I'd kinda believe them.

[Y3a]

OK so we take old evaluations, and a bunch of greedy lawyers who'd rather not be second guessed, along with doctors (in FLA) where so many elderly patients die, and mix it up with the control freak husband who just want Terri dead and buried so their won't be any chance for us to find out what really happened to her (broken bones, indications of injections in places where doctors don't GIVE injections, etc) and the factual history of the things that the husband"guardian" has done that were NOT in her best interest or even comfort, and it makes for quite an interesting story.

What about todays technology, and todays evaluations - Husband won't allow it. WHY?
husband has new mate and bastard kids now...
Just because it's "the law" doesn't mean it's right. Remember laws are written by lawyers!

WHO ARE these "experts" on starvation? What german Lab's did they work in during WWII?

The husband is punishing Terri's family because they acused him of the injuries to Terri, and they probably hit a nerve- something a control freak can't stand.


http://www.terrisfight.net/

[goMac]

Originally posted by Y3a:
OK so we take old evaluations, and a bunch of greedy lawyers who'd rather not be second guessed, along with doctors (in FLA) where so many elderly patients die, and mix it up with the control freak husband who just want Terri dead and buried so their won't be any chance for us to find out what really happened to her (broken bones, indications of injections in places where doctors don't GIVE injections, etc) and the factual history of the things that the husband"guardian" has done that were NOT in her best interest or even comfort, and it makes for quite an interesting story.

What about todays technology, and todays evaluations - Husband won't allow it. WHY?
husband has new mate and bastard kids now...
Just because it's "the law" doesn't mean it's right. Remember laws are written by lawyers!

WHO ARE these "experts" on starvation? What german Lab's did they work in during WWII?

The husband is punishing Terri's family because they acused him of the injuries to Terri, and they probably hit a nerve- something a control freak can't stand.


http://www.terrisfight.net/

It's requote time!

(Thanks to the people who found these articles, namely bstone)

"Dr. Ron Cranford, a neurologist at the University of Minnesota, examined Terri Schiavo and assessed her brain function in 2001, as part of a court-ordered assessment. Dr. Cranford concluded that most of Schiavo's cerebral cortex has been completely destroyed, replaced by cerebrospinal fluid. He was quoted in Florida Today as saying "[Schiavo] has no electrical activity in her cerebral cortex on an EEG (electroencephalogram), and a CT (computerized tomography) scan showed massive atrophy in that region." [19] (http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html) [20] (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pb.../503180350/1006) Michael contends that about 70 to 90 percent of Terri's upper brain has been destroyed, and in addition there is damage to the lower brain, which controls functions such as breathing and swallowing. Three Florida neurologists viewed 12 of Schiavo's CT scans on March 22. After viewing the scans, Dr. Leon Prockop (a professor and former chairman of neurology at the University of South Florida's College of Medicine) was quoted by the Sun-Sentinel as saying that Schiavo's is the "most severe brain damage as I've ever seen." Dr. Walter Bradley, the chairman of neurology at the University of Miami's Miller School of Medicine, said that he "[d]oubts there's any activity going on in the higher levels of her brain." [21]"

"Death will be painless, all experts agree

By Kathleen Fackelmann, USA TODAY

Terri Schiavo has had no food or water since Friday, which has led her parents and their supporters to complain that she could be experiencing a painful death. But neurologists on Wednesday said that based on court findings of her condition, her body gradually will shut down in a painless process that will lead to death.

The Florida woman suffered serious brain damage after her heart stopped in 1990, and she has been the focus of a protracted legal battle that reached a zenith on Friday, when her feeding tube was removed by court order.

In a process that could take days, weeks or longer, the lack of food and water will cause chemical imbalances that eventually will shut down major organs such as the kidneys, and that ultimately will trigger heart abnormalities or other fatal problems, says Roger Albin, a neurologist at the University of Michigan.

Florida courts have ruled that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, a condition caused by extensive damage to the cortex and other parts of the brain that are responsible for consciousness, higher thinking, memory or even sensations such as pain, hunger and thirst.

"She's not experiencing hunger - she's not experiencing anything," Albin says.

Patients in such a state don't get better because the body is unable to repair such a massive injury to the brain, says James Bernat, a neurologist at the Dartmouth Medical School in Hanover, N.H.

"If you're in a state like this for three months or more, you're chance of recovery is zero," Albin says.

That point is disputed by Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who are battling Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, to get Terri's feeding tube reinserted.

The condition is confusing because patients in a persistent vegetative state still have the use of a primitive part of the brain, the stem. The brain stem allows them to go through sleep-wake cycles, keeps them breathing and produces facial expressions that can make it look as though they are aware of their surroundings, Albin says.

But those movements are merely reflexes, says Bruce Sigsbee, a neurologist in Rockport, Maine."

Get it? She's not in pain. She doesn't feel hunger. And there is no other legal way to do it thanks to the Republicans. Lethal injection would be nice... but thats illegal for normal use, isn't it?

[C.A.T.S. CEO]

i think she should die

[budster101]

Originally posted by C.A.T.S. CEO:
i think she should die

I think.

[Cody Dawg]

I wonder if Michael Shiavo is going to make her death a PPV event, after all people LOVE to see **** happen to people.

Maybe Murdoch could make money with a channel called the death channel -- guarantee one death a day.

The ultimate reality show -- get husbands to get their wife incapacitated and have them die slowly and miserably by denying them healthcare because "THat's their wish!!"

Yeah why does stuff like this only happen after big malpractice lawsuits?

I think the jackass shoulda lost his rights the moment he went and ****ed his new girlfriend.

Link, you're right on target as usual. You should hang out here more often - we miss you, you know.

[budster101]

Originally posted by Link:
<Best Part>

I think the jackass shoulda lost his rights the moment he went and ****ed his new girlfriend.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Too Artificial:
wax and bstone, i'm not really questioning the legalities of this. If the case has run its course legally, I have to accept it (doesn't mean I agree with it, acceptance and agreement are two different things). But, just because that's the "law" doesn't make it right. The "law" also allowed another piece of human garbage to kill an innocent 9 year old girl recently. We can thank the liberal courts and laws for that one, but that's an entirely different discussion.

I stand behind the comments I made about the husband.

I don't think American (or any (American) state law) allows the killing of 9-year old girls.

So you finally agree to the bottom line: Mr. Schiavo's decision is within his rights. Whether you would do the same if you were in his place is another matter. You should start to accept his decision as it is (at least legally) his decision alone.

Florida is not as liberal (isn't the governor Republican ...) as you claim it to be. Even the not-so-liberal members of the SC did not intervene in its latest decision not to review the case. Stop blaming anything liberal as soon as some aspect of American life doesn't conform your `conservative' (or, if you want, you can replace that word with any other stereotype you want to be labeled as) points of view.